Olde Eynsford v. Swiss

[MIEagle]

I've been shooting 1.5 Swiss for BPCR as the "gold standard". A friend of mine said that he switched to OE because the fouling was much more moist in the barrel and he hasn't had any change in accuracy. Any other comments out there? I also shoot N-SSA skirmishing and Swiss seems to give a little better results than GOEX at 50 and 100 yds. I haven't tried OE yet for skirmishing. Thanks.

[country gent]

I used the Old Ensford almost all last summer in in my CPA Shillouette in 40-65 and C Sharps hepburn in 45-90 starting late last fall with really good results so far. Accuracy picked up over regular Goex and fouling is alot easier to work with on the line. Clean up is easier also. At the range I use windex as a cleaning soulution and a spray of it a few passes with a brush and 3-4 patches do it for the trip home plus some. Havent worked with the swiss I bought at the same time yet so cant really give a comparrison of the two.

[Boz330]

My experience with the OE is the same as CG. It shoots great in my 45-70 although I don't quite have a load for the 40-65 yet.

Bob

[powderburnerr]

I use it in a 40-50 sbn with almost the exact results as swiss , it groups the same and is less than an inch different in elevation , I used volume to volume and my lot weighs 5 gns less than the swiss load,

[Bent Ramrod]

My experience is the same as others. My .45-70 needs 3 gr more OE 1-1/2 than Swiss for the same elevations. For my shooting, accuracy is identical. Fouling control and cleanup is the same as Swiss, as far as I can see. Premium stuff at a much more affordable price. The only problem I'm seeing is that nobody seems to have OE in 1Fg granulation.

[Chill Wills]

I got some Olde Eynsford last spring, one year ago. I received a few lbs to sample. I do not think GOEX has made many lots yet and they do not list every size. In fact as of this February I have only seen two lot numbers. 1.5F is the largest grade I've seen listed from the distributor and it is hard to come by. Not sure why.

To date, I have worked up loads of Olde E in the 45-70 only. I hope to get to the other calibers I shoot soon. All the testing with Olde E has been at 200 meters. After I get a better idea how it works and what it takes to load match grade ammo I will try the longer targets.

Working from accurate Swiss loads I've previously developed, I started by simply replacing the Swiss 2F powder with the Olde E 2F and kept all else the same.
All my accuracy loads with Swiss powder are basically a Zero compression load so that is where I started with Olde E.
Equal volume of Olde E weights less, a lot less - than Swiss. Volume for volume starting loads were accurate but much slower. Working Olde E up in two grain increments and compressing showed groups getting larger then smaller with the cycle repeating until I stopped with no greater than 0.225" or so compression. Accuracy nearing that of the Swiss accuracy load WITH similar velocity was achieved. Interestingly, or coincidentally, when I reached the equal weight of the accurate Swiss charge with Olde E, the target showed both velocity and good accuracy.

I shot three different bullets, a 545 grain Theodore (money bullet), a 545gr Paul Jones Creedmoor and the odd (Lyman) Brad Rice nose pour he shoots so well. Good loads could be worked up for each but the sweet spot for the two heaver bullets was not at a velocity that was as high as Swiss in each case. I might have reached that as a goal if the powder charge and compression were to be increased. The Lyman bullet load showed real accuracy and that is too bad because that mold is the pits to cast good bullets from!

I will try to post more as I get a little time and review my notes. I got a full case of Olde E FF last month and I am excited to refine my 45-70 loads and give it a try in my 40.

[Gunlaker]

I don't shoot a lot of Swiss, mostly Goex Express of late. I recently bought a case of OE 1.5. It is very fluffy stuff, but quite hot. I get 1370fps out of 89gr of OE 1.5 and a PP 535gr money bullet. In the .40-65 accuracy with 60.5gr of OE 1.5 and the Kidwell Money bullet, seems similar to my best load using FFFg Express and the Saeco #740, at least out to 300 yards. The OE loads use a couple of minutes less elevation due to the higher speed.

I have only burned a pound of OE so far, so it'll be a while before I've made up my mind on it. It seems to shoot as well as anything else. Fouling wise, it didn't seem to be a significant improvement in my PP rifle, but in the .40-65 I'd say it's a definite, but not large, improvement over FFFg Express.

Chris.

[MikeA]

75gr goex OE. 500gr spitzer, Beeswax and vaseline lube. I don't count my first shot but I have had zero issues after 6 shots consecutively for grouping, very moist barrel and one patch with ez clean and one spit patch and the barrel it's absolutely clean. I have never used swiss and I was only a kid last time I used black powder so it's the only evidence I have so far. I do know Pyrodex creates a sewage pipe, lol.

[Gunlaker]

I shot a few more targets at 300 today with the Kidwell money bullet and 60.5gr of OE 1.5. I'd say the OE is a pretty decent powder. Accuracy is very good and velocity was an average of 1298 fps with a SD of 4.6. I think a little more powder + compression might improve it even more.

Monday will be some more testing with the .45-2.4" PP rifle.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

82 grs with patched bullets in the 2.4 seems to be working well. 81 with greasers.

[Gunlaker]

Don, just an update. The OE 1.5 seems really good in the .40-65. Better SD's than with Goex FFFg so far and accuracy is quite comparable.

In my DanT PP 2.4 rifle I haven't quite got it working consistently yet. Some day it's excellent and other days less so. I think I can get there with changes in the wads. It's definitely harder on my Starline cases than Swiss 1.5. I've now got four cases showing signs of impending separation. With Swiss there is little or no stretching and it's more consistent. I'll try backing the charges down to what your using and will try some felt wads.

I also need to try this stuff in my .45-70 PP rifle. That one is quite picky about powder granulation and speed, at least with my current wad setup.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

Don, just an update.
In my DanT PP 2.4 rifle I haven't quite got it working consistently yet. Some day it's excellent and other days less so.
Chris.

Chris, You just described my experience with the PP 45-90. As we have talked about this in the past - I think we have rifles chambered with the same reamer.
I could get mine to shot well ...sometimes, OK, ....most of the time and some days it was just not worth the powder and lead I wasted.
I shot the rifle in the American Creedmoor Cup 8 years ago and that was the only match it ever saw. And P.U., my score stunk!
I got to the point with that rifle that I was not sure what else to do with it. It was a 2MOA rifle. And that does not compete.
Since that match I have been keeping my ears open. Two things have come up I might try.
Now I wonder if those two ideas I have had in the past eight years might work but I just have not had the time nor been able to face the frustration of working on it again.

I would like to shoot PP this summer at the Byers match. just to do something different. I just need to find the time to re-visit this rifle again. If I do, it will be with Swiss. -92 grains of 1-1/2F under a 0.060 poly wad and a 540 grain $ bullet was where I left off. That put about an 1/8" of bullet in the mouth of the case. That would be the starting point and I would have to perfect it from there.

After that American Creedmoor Cup match many years ago, Dan Theodore gave me his remaining 40 loaded match rounds to take back home and test. They did not shoot any better than my match ammo. Two of the many possibilities that account for this rifles poor performance is that this is as well as this rifle will shoot .....and or, ... I am doing something to prevent getting a better result. Hmmm, Naah! :kidding:

[BrentD]

Michael, I don't know how you can get by with just 92 grns of Swiss 1.5 in a 90. I could never load mine with less than 102 grs and have anything there to support the bullet.

A 540 gr bullet is going to be pretty long for an 18 twist, if that is what your barrel is. The paper patch bullets seem to need to twist faster than a groove bullet. Especially the Money bullet as that is a bit on the blunt side and has a bit more pressure on the nose that will want to turn that bullet out of whack.

Try 102-105 grs and a poly wad. That might help, but I think you need a shorter bullet if your barrel is an 18.

[Don McDowell]

Chris I haven't messed with patched bullets much in this 45-90, but what little I have done 82 grs of 1.5 was hinting it might want to shoot.
Micheal I have a KAL bullet mould that is supposed to have been designed for Dan's paper patch chamber, I would be happy to send it down to you so you could try some of those bullets before Byers.
Plans are to bring a rifle, Oregon barrel and Dan's reamer down to leave with Eron to work his magic on at the Rocky Mtn regional match. So I won't be needing those blocks until next spring sometime most likely.

[Gunlaker]

Brent, my Starline cases must have reasonably thick walls near the case head. My load of 94gr of Swiss 1.5 is a little compressed actually. That's drop tubed through a 24" tube. In my .45-70 I fit 82gr and a wad and compress about 0.1".


I've been shooting Dan's chamber in .45-70 for a few years now off and on, and of late have been using the 2.4" case. My motivation for the longer case was not necessarily more velocity, but I was thinking I could use plain Goex Fg rather than a premium powder like I need in the .45-90. I don't think it's going to work out that way.


Here is how I would summarize my progress with the rifles. The .45-70, 1:18 twist CSA 1874 was very easy to work up a load for. It is very sensitive to powder granulation. I was never able to get it to shoot Fg well, and FFFg Express shot ok, but less good than FFg Express. I think it's an issue of balancing alloy and wad stack. 82gr of FFg Express works quite well, at least to my definition. I am a small fish in a small pond ;-). The rifle generally holds between 1-1/8 to 1-1/4 minute of vertical at 200m. I've not shot longer distances with this gun very often, but it looks like it'll hold not much worse than 1-1/4 minute of vertical at 500m for ten shots. Horizontal is greater, but I'm not the most consistent prone shooter and I tend to induce horizontal so my groups are wider than they ought to be. Dan always told me to use a single 0.060" LDPE and nothing else, also to use wads cut to the inside diameter of the case (0.474"). I think it is slightly better to force a 0.459" wad into the case. I have seen the very occasional burn mark on patch remnants with the 0.0454" wad. I've found that adding a single 0.060" veg wad seemed to make the rifle shoot a tiny bit better, but I haven't checked the statistics. :-). Perhaps a single wad would work better with Swiss 1.5. I'm using the 446535 Baco Money bullet in 16:1 and my few recovered bullets show lots of engraving. I size the bullets to 0.445" as they fit the Badger bore better that way. I'm wet patching with 8 lb Seth Cole.


The 2.4" rifle is a trickier beast. It's a CSA 1885, 32" #5 GM barrel with a 1:16 twist. I fireformed my brass using a couple of different BACO bullets (500gr Creedmoor, and 446535 Money ) using lube cookies. The accuracy was consistently excellent. It did 8 shot groups under a minute of angle from the bench a number of times. Muzzle vel SD'd were not that great. Good for 200m, but not good for far away :-). I tried Goex with the same wads I used in the .45-70. I instantly gas cut the bullets and accuracy was terrble. Two LDPE's and accuracy started to come back, but it was inconsistent and SD's were crappy (12fps+). Pistol primers helped, but not enought.


Then I got the case of OE 1.5. It shot a few really excellent 200m groups, but lots of mediocre ones. I never did get the velocity SD's down, until I tried Kenny's old wad stack with the thick cork wad. That brought the 10 shot SD to under 5 IIRC. Unfortunately the accuracy isn't there. I think the wad cushions the bullet too much and it might need a softer alloy. I think the OE 1.5 is a lot closer to FFFg than it is to Swiss 1.5. It has piles of velocity. I get 1374 fps with only 89 grains, which is a case filling load.


After that I decided to try Swiss 1.5 which I'd been saving for my schuetzen rifle mostly. Instantly things have become better. Ten shot SD was under 4, and accuracy was good. I think it's probably consistent, but have only shot maybe 8 or 10 ten shot targets with the Swiss load. Interestingly the rifle doesn't gas cut with a single LDPE using Swiss 1.5, but will with Goex Fg. Maybe the pressure rise is too slow. I am using two LDPE wads though, as it shoots better, as far as I can tell. I think these two rifles are very, very sensitive to powder granulation. Much more than any of my GG rifles. Maybe that could be cured with wads and alloy, but that's what it seems like to me.


Here is what I'm using for a load so far:


CCI Large Pistol + wad in primer pocket to space the primer out.
6.05 grams of Swiss 1.5. I have a metric OHaus scale :-). IIRC that's 93-94gr range.
0.060" veg king + 0.060" LDPE + 0.060" LDPE.
446535 BACO Money, 16:1 wet patched with 8lb Seth Cole, 0.110" in case. Patch goes 0.730", just short of end of shank. The bullet is a little more snig than I'd like it.
I'm wiping with a 40 cal Delrin rod from Steve Rhoades and am using thick Butches pactches which are a pretty tight fit. It takes 2 reasonably wet and one dry patch where I live to manage fouling.

So that's where I am so far. If the Swiss load holds up then I will take it to Byers. If not then I will bring the 18 twist .45-70. Either way, my lack of wind reading experience will likely be the biggest factor in how I do.




Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Here is my nicest ten shot prone target with the Swiss 1.5 load at 200m. The vertical is about 2-1/8" if you discount the top shot. I know I pulled that one.

The other targets were not quite as nice, but had similar vertical. I believe that the horizontal in them can be attributed to my grip and cheek pressure inconsistencies.

http://www.bcsingleshot.com/photos/misc/PP-45-90/swiss.jpg



Chris.

[BrentD]

Chris, your target does not show up for me - not sure why.

I only use Swiss. I chased the Express powder and for years (before Swiss) and I shot Cartridge, but I have given up on all other powders except Swiss and until next year, I only use 1.5 fg (next year, i am going to try 2f in a long range muzzleloader). When Gullo and Chilson wind champships with something else, I might venture to gamble, but for me, it is Swiss and only Swiss until then.

My powder is droptubed and the minimum charges that I can use, that will support the bullet with a 0.06" wad and 0.1" of bullet in the case with extremely minimal compression are :
.45-70 = 82 gr (Starline)
.45-90 = 102 gr (Starline)
.45-100 = 107.5 gr (Winchester brass stretched by BACO)

FWIW, these rifles have been incredibly easy to work up loads with. They both shoot equally accurately up to 85-86gr where I max out w/o a case extension. In my guns, the primer is always a CCI-BR2, no primer wads, the powder as above, and then either a 0.06" Walters wad or a 0.06" BACO LDPE wad, a very tiny amount of compression, and the bullet (always seated 0.10" into the case).

These loads are used on everything from chickens to the 1000 yds line, and in an 18 twist barrel with a 514 gr prolate or in a 16 twist barrel with a 537 gr prolate, both 16:1. Tonight, however, I am loading up a bunch of light (425 gr) bullets, 60 gr of powder and a whole bunch of lube, for testing as a chicken load.

I believe you are absolutely correct about the larger wad size - I think the wads I use are 0.460" They are darn tight but I get them in there easily enough. I don't know what my case necks measure but a .450+ bullet is very snug in them. Necksizing w/o the expander plug will usually produce this but I just load mine as they come from the gun.

That Ohaus scale is probably programmable to switch to units like grains, carats and even drams. I'm int he process of buying yet another scale - I have almost as much $ in defunct scales as I have in a good target rifle. :(

[Lumpy grits]

Here is my nicest ten shot prone target with the Swiss 1.5 load at 200m. The vertical is about 2-1/8" if you discount the top shot. I know I pulled that one.

The other targets were not quite as nice, but had similar vertical. I believe that the horizontal in them can be attributed to my grip and cheek pressure inconsistencies.

139508

Chris.

Link is not work'n--
LG

[Lead pot]

After last weekends long range match I put the .44-75 with the deep grooved barrel to rest till I get the new barreled .44-75 CPA build.
Today I took the .45-70 I seldom shoot to the range with some ladder loads using 2 F OE and 3 F OE. and I used the 513 gr what I call the Danielson prolate bullet. I'm in my second case of the 3F OE powder and I have been using the 3F OE for the .45-2.4 because it really woke this rifle up. The 2.4 has always been a mediocre shooter with what ever powder I used in it Swiss and all of the rest I have shot in it.
Today a 90 gr load of 3F OE with just a 1/8" dense cork wad over the powder, no lube wad, and the 513 gr PP prolate shot the best round 2-1/8" six shot group @ 200 yards I have ever shot with the 2.4
Also the .45-70 loaded with the same prolate bullet and cork wad with 79 gr of 3F OE shot a tighter group.
Both of these rifles are going to get a second look.

[Gunlaker]

I don't know why the image didn't work, but it should be OK now. I just put a copy onto my web site and included a link.

Brent, I like Swiss too, but it's been very hard to get here in Canada. I've managed to get some from some nice folks about 1500 miles away as they were visiting a local gun show and brought some along. Since then I've found a local supplier that will bring it in for me, but it's $40/lb. In the end I will use whatever the rifle likes most. So far this is Swiss. It's funny how I built it so I could use cheap Goex Fg, but instead it wants the most expensive powder :-).

Based on what I've seen so far, I'll likely use Goex Fg with lube cookies as a 200m/300yd practice load as this is where I shoot most often. I'll save the Swiss for shooting where it counts. I will continue experiments with the OE in this rifle, but highest priority will be testing the Swiss a little more first as I need a load I can count on.

Michael, I was thinking about this. My level of acceptable accuracy is likely quite a bit lower than yours. Guys like you and Brent are chasing single points for the top spots, where at the moment I'll be quite happy to not embarrass myself :-).

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Kurt it's on my list to try some more of your wad ideas, and the felt that Don uses.

I'm sure that somewhere I'll find something that'll work better with the OE. It was really interesting when I tried Kenny's old wad stack with veg + LDPE + cork and the SD's came way down over the 2 LDPE with OE 1.5. Kenny said he'd switched the cork out for felt and I will try that too. The accuracy went away and I'm guessing that the 16:1 bullet didn't engrave well.

I've seen that happen even in my .45-110 where if I have too much wad then I get half of the shots in a nice tight group, and the other half are flyers.

I think the Swiss + 2 x LDPE combination is going to work though. The first target with swiss was the one above, and the velocities were really consistent. Eight of the ten shots had an ES of only 3 fps, something that I've never seen even with my best GG loads in other rifles.

Chris.

[Lumpy grits]

:hijack:
For those that have Goex 3F on hand.
Don't be afraid to try it in the .45-70 or .45-90.
LG

[Lead pot]

Chris.

The reason I use a cork wad for the PP bullet is to lock the gas from passing the bullet when I omit the lube wad. In the past loading the PP with out using lube I got terrible vertical and leading in the bore. The following winter I filled the snow drifts with lead to see what is going on and I saw the gas cuts. I loaded with different wad stacks including felt and plastic but I settled on cork. This stopped the nonsense.
When I see vertical it is usually caused by a poor gas seal and it shows up with the ES especially with a loose fitting bullet in the bore with an alloy to hard.

I quit using 1/16 Tin/Lead with my elliptical and prolate bullets and changed to 1/18 T/L so it fills the grooves faster to seal gas leaks. The 1/18 with the ogives I use do not show slump that deforms the ogive. Yes I get setback slightly but this is normal with 1/16 also. When a bullet expands and fills the chamber sidewalls it will naturally get shorter also, but the ogive shape holds.
The problem with cork wads that are thicker than 1/16" you must keep the PP bullets over bore diameter because the soft cork takes up a lot of shock that is needed to obdurate the bullet shank to fill the grooves. The alloy balance is critical with an undersized PP bullet with a soft cork or felt wad under it to keep the vertical down.
That is why the GG is normally easier to get accurate loads because they are at groove diameter when the charge goes off. the PP has to bump up to seal the grooves to hold the gas behind the bullet.

[Chill Wills]

My reply is in blue...
Michael, I don't know how you can get by with just 92 grns of Swiss 1.5 in a 90. I could never load mine with less than 102 grs and have anything there to support the bullet. In my Starline cases a charge of my lott 1.5 Swiss full to seat the bullet 1/8" in the case is 92 grains. I use a 0.060 wad. in the 92 grain load. This rifles chamber is a tight PP chamber cut to bore size - but you may already understand that part. Case capacity without a bullet is about 98 grains full to the mouth - again, no bullet or space for one.

A 540 gr bullet is going to be pretty long for an 18 twist, if that is what your barrel is. Of course bore diameter bullets shorten when fired. The barrel is one of the rare GM cut rifled barrels that has the 16.75" twist in it. I think it is plenty fast. Writing from memory is always a gamble; the length and weight of the bullet in question is 1.425" and 515grs in 16-1 alloy. I stated its weight as 540grns. That 540 grn bullet was a different bullet for a groove diameter rifle. My error. The bullet used in this rifle is the same one I use and have great success with in my Gibbs ML rifle. The paper patch bullets seem to need to twist faster than a groove bullet. Especially the Money bullet as that is a bit on the blunt side and has a bit more pressure on the nose that will want to turn that bullet out of whack.

Try 102-105 grs and a poly wad. That is a lot more powder that I care to shoot. It would also require a bunch of compression. I am not into compressing more than a grain or two, max. I can find a load I like other ways with Good Swiss Powder.... at least in other rifles:D. I feel that an accurate load can be found using much less powder in this rifle. Or at least an accuracy load that equals the rifles potential. That might help, but I think you need a shorter bullet if your barrel is an 18.Michael Rix

[BrentD]

Michael,
That all sounds pretty good to me. That bullet is nowhere close to too long. I have one of the same GM barrels, I think made in the same batch as yours. That is my long range rifle, usually, and it throws a 1.515" bullet with no problem.

Although I don't understand how 92 gr fills the case that far, so be it. A light kiss of compression to level all the cases the same and it should be good. FWIW, I seat my bullets just less than 0.1" in the case.

The only other thing I can guess is that the chamber leade is one of those funnel chambers. I'm not much of a fan of them for target rifles. They are fine in hunting rifles, but I do not use them in target guns and I have never seen one shoot truly 1st class accuracy, though many champion them. But that's the only a guess, since I obviously don't know what your chamber is like. Does seem like a bit of a mystery.