.577 Snider

[Gunor]

Question: loaded 12 grains Green Dot in a 24 gauge brass shell with a bumped up minie bullet.

is this a safe load in a Snider Rifle?

i kinda of got into a pissing contest with a guy on FB - he was very concerned that I ruin the rifle and me by using this load. Ring the barrel and etc., by using 'Nitro' powder and not holy black.

I get using BP in these guns and etc. But looking at my old Lyman Cast Handbook, they were using the upper teens in grains for the larger calibers. Not the same powder or burn rate, but close. I think the guy was really concerned about the pressure rise of Nitro vs. BP and the strength of the action. Snider, not a great design, might be weaker than a Trapdoor (?). But my 12 grain fire forming load was fairly mild.

Geoff in Oregon

[longbow]

12 grains of...?

[zuke]

Posting the type of powder your using sure would make it easier

[Gunor]

Green Dot

[zuke]

I'm using 15 gr of 700X in a 577-450

[BAGTIC]

Are you using shotgun shells or real rifle cases?

[zuke]

Are you using shotgun shells or real rifle cases?

Who is your question directed to?

[Gunor]

Shotgun cases. I hate to say, but on Facebook there was a discussion. The other guy was extremely concerned that the only powder to use in these old guns was holy black. So I have started to read up on the pressure curves of smokeless vs BP. Found some additional info on different pressure curves.

Found that different powders had different pressure curves - the concern was the basic rapid rise of pressure between the powders and the unknown metal strength of these old guns. This guy felt that BP was the only powder to load. I feel, that the modern smokeless can replicate BP loads and have similar pressure rise curves. Basic idea is not overstress with a too steep of a pressure rise.

Makes sense, but I am trying to find the data and powders to backup this concept. And be safe.

I have seen, and used Trapdoor loads.

geoff

[BCRider]

Well from what I've read technically you are right that if you use the right slower burning powder that you'll have a safe enough load as long as the pressure isn't over the old BP pressure.

The problem is that I don't think even the slowest smokeless is anywhere near as slow as the BP curve. But if you can come at least close the metal should be tolerant of this. There's more to the whole thing than JUST trying to match the pressure rise.

Looking up the Green Dot you're far from going in that direction though. It's one of the faster handgun and shotgun powders to be found on the burn rate chart.

The trick is going to be finding one of the slow powders on the burn rate chart that is tolerant of small amounts of powder in high volume cases.

At least for starters I'd move from the very fast Green Dot over to the middle of the burn rate chart powders that are known to work with lighter charge densities. Like Alliant 5744, Hodgdon H4198 and IMR 3031. Even being at the middle of the burn rate chart the recoil shock with these is still far snappier than with BP loads.

I would also not try to even match the muzzle velocity of these to the MV from BP. All of these smokeless powders burn MUCH faster than BP so to avoid the risk of peening of the parts which is the danger with a fast burning powder you need to hold the peak pressure back fairly well under the BP peak pressure. And that means you end up living with a lower muzzle velocity.

A good guide would be the MV relationship between smokeless trapdoor loads that have proven to be safe to the old rifles and proper BP rounds shot from the same rifles. If you duplicate that relationship with your Snider you should be fine.

[BAGTIC]

Green dot and other fat burning powders do have a fast pressure rise. The difference is one will not be using a full (100%?) case capacity charge as with BP. The usual pressure rise with those powders will be reduced because they have a lot of case volume to fill before they begin to exert significant pressure on the bullet.

[Gunor]

BAGTIC,

I am thinking the same thing - the .577 Snider case is huge - with a little 500 grain bullet and 12 grains of Green Dot. Pressure wise, the case is 'fire forming' to the chamber - but just barely with those loads. Original 24 gauge had a slight bottleneck at the neck area - it barely pushed this out and was not consistent between each round - which leads me to believe that this was low pressure and different annealing between the cases.

Geoff

[BAGTIC]

I don't know what velocity you desire but many of the shot gun/pistol powders should approximate the original velocities and under factory pressures. I ran QL for some approximations with the Lyman 505 grain FN. It shows it should be possible to reach the 1200-1300 fps range of the original loads. The problem is the lack of bulk. Personally I don't like to load less than 50% of case volume because it can lead to inconsistent ignition due to positioning. It appears that with RD and GD a 50% volume load would just about duplicate factory velocities. A 50% charge of Herco shows 1300 fps at factory pressures. I am not going to mention any powder charges as these are theoretical approximations.


If you want to fill the case fuller by using slower powders you can. Of course it would mean more recoil and more powder consumption and expense, something I personally would avoid in these days of scarcity. I did not even look at what velocities might be possible as personally I feel the point of shooting old guns is to produce the original ballistics not to hot rod them.

According to QL your 12 grains of GD would produce approximately 1046 fps at approximately 11567 psi. This assumes a 33 inch barrel.

[Polar_Hunter]

I would recommend that anyone want to use smokeless powder in a BP gun should read the info here,,, http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm . Be sure to open the link found at the end of the second paragraph. (The use of Pistol Powders in Rifle Cartridges)

I found this info very helpful in developing a smokeless load for my Snider. In my case I am using 700X.

[John Taylor]

It is quite common to use pistol powder in large capacity cases. Was looking at a load for the 50-140 and it says up to 22 grains of unique. I have use 11 grain of unique in 45-70 for years with a 405 grain bullet.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

The problem is really one of Russian roulette - sooner or later . . . . . . . . . . :redneck:

I have loaded and shot 577 & 577/450 for many years and have seen many guns ruined by amateurs thinking they can get away with it! They don't refer to the Snider as a "suicide breech" for nothing. Many users in the field found the breech would open during firing and that was with low pressure black powder loads!

Using 12 grns in a case that will hold 90+ requires a lot of filler to hold the powder back against the primer. No filler and you run the risk of the powder lying along the case and resulting in detonation as all the powder will ignight uncontrollably. This is thought to be one of the causes of chamber ringing.

My "Super Snider" is built on a MH Martini with a new Walther barrel and I have used 92gns FFG with a custom 620gn boolit but the recoil in a 8lb rifle is horrendous!
Even with the stronger action, I will not load smokeless in any black powder rifle!

[Polar_Hunter]

Russian Roulette, to me, refers to a purposeful attempt to beat the odds. I really believe that in most cases of damage and/or destruction the problem arises from errors in the reloading process (ie: a double charge). Another cause can be ignorance about how different powders work. Even an experienced re-loader can be distracted and make a mistake and I have seen modern guns damaged as a result. Care and Caution cannot be stressed enough when it comes to any re-loading.

Personally in do not load with automatic equipment for any caliber. It is slower but I think safer. I prime all my cases and then measure and weigh each load and seat the bullet immediately. I never charge multiple cases. If I am interrupted and cannot seat the bullet right away I dump the powder and start over.

Another problem is that there are fellows that just have to squeeze every bit of power out of a cartridge, running right on the edge of the precipice. They just have to get that 5 or 10 extra FPS. I seems to be a compulsive disorder with some fellows. Such a person should stick with modern magnum firearms. There is no place for this attitude when it comes to shooting antique arms.

[Polar_Hunter]

Question: loaded 12 grains Green Dot in a 24 gauge brass shell with a bumped up minie bullet.

is this a safe load in a Snider Rifle?

i kinda of got into a pissing contest with a guy on FB - he was very concerned that I ruin the rifle and me by using this load. Ring the barrel and etc., by using 'Nitro' powder and not holy black.

I get using BP in these guns and etc. But looking at my old Lyman Cast Handbook, they were using the upper teens in grains for the larger calibers. Not the same powder or burn rate, but close. I think the guy was really concerned about the pressure rise of Nitro vs. BP and the strength of the action. Snider, not a great design, might be weaker than a Trapdoor (?). But my 12 grain fire forming load was fairly mild.

Geoff in Oregon

12 gr of 700X at 1000 fps,,,,,

http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/27845887_New_sight_577_Snider_1.jpg (http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/27845887/New_sight_577_Snider_1.jpg.html) http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/27845888_New_sight_577_Snider_2.jpg (http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/27845888/New_sight_577_Snider_2.jpg.html) http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/27845889_New_sight_577_Snider_3.jpg (http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/27845889/New_sight_577_Snider_3.jpg.html)

[.22-10-45]

These are circa 1860 conversions..with 1860 steel/iron and technology..and with the earlier marks..only a spring loaded ball detent and the weight of the hammer locking the breech. I for one value my eyesight and assorted body parts to anything but Holy black in these antiques.

[singleshotcajun]

I would like to know more about that sight conversion please. I have a Nepalese MKIII type from IMA. I am very early on in load development for mine. Right now I am using Magtech 24 gauge brass shortened for my chamber(1.875") 65 gr of FFG with lots of felt and cardboard wads under a .600" 325 gr round ball. This load shoots really pleasant. No matter what I do with the load or fitting of the rifle accuarcy will alwyas come back around to the worst sights I have ever used on any firearm. My Snider was missing the brass fore end tip and that portion of the wood so I smoothed it out and glassed the fore end tip. With nothing to loose I bedded the tang and recoil shoulder area, bedded the barrel and got the breech area off of the lock plate. Also bedded the barrel channel of the stock to mitigate barrel whip.
I have some Unique and am tempted to try it but for now I am sticking with FFG.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

For all you Snider enthusiats may I recommend this link to the Fort Henry Guard Sunset display:Fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y39im-ytNEE

[Polar_Hunter]

I would like to know more about that sight conversion please. I have a Nepalese MKIII type from IMA. I am very early on in load development for mine. Right now I am using Magtech 24 gauge brass shortened for my chamber(1.875") 65 gr of FFG with lots of felt and cardboard wads under a .600" 325 gr round ball. This load shoots really pleasant. No matter what I do with the load or fitting of the rifle accuarcy will alwyas come back around to the worst sights I have ever used on any firearm. My Snider was missing the brass fore end tip and that portion of the wood so I smoothed it out and glassed the fore end tip. With nothing to loose I bedded the tang and recoil shoulder area, bedded the barrel and got the breech area off of the lock plate. Also bedded the barrel channel of the stock to mitigate barrel whip.
I have some Unique and am tempted to try it but for now I am sticking with FFG.

The front sight as you can see in the photos above is the sight protector from a #4 Lee Enfield with a sight post that I machined from a woodriff key. To get a snug fit on the barrel there is a thin strip of shim stock wrapped around the barrel under the sight protector. The taller sight post brings the point of impact down so that I can aim right on at 50 yards and elevate the rear sight a little for 100 yard shooting.
For a young fellow that is probably all that is needed but my old eyes need some help for the rear sight as well. A simple ghost ring does the job for me. (photos below)
Both sights are simple add-on's that require no modification to the gun itself.

http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t/30382120_Snider_peep_1.jpg (http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/30382120/Snider_peep_1.jpg.html) http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t/30382121_Snider_peep_2.jpg (http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/30382121/Snider_peep_2.jpg.html) http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t/30382122_Snider_peep_3.jpg (http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/30382122/Snider_peep_3.jpg.html)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The problem is really one of Russian roulette - sooner or later . . . . . . . . . . :redneck:

I have loaded and shot 577 & 577/450 for many years and have seen many guns ruined by amateurs thinking they can get away with it! They don't refer to the Snider as a "suicide breech" for nothing. Many users in the field found the breech would open during firing and that was with low pressure black powder loads!

Using 12 grns in a case that will hold 90+ requires a lot of filler to hold the powder back against the primer. No filler and you run the risk of the powder lying along the case and resulting in detonation as all the powder will ignight uncontrollably. This is thought to be one of the causes of chamber ringing.

My "Super Snider" is built on a MH Martini with a new Walther barrel and I have used 92gns FFG with a custom 620gn boolit but the recoil in a 8lb rifle is horrendous!
Even with the stronger action, I will not load smokeless in any black powder rifle!


I agree about the danger, and likelihood of inconsistent performance even if you get away with it, in such an extreme difference between charge and case volume. With the Snider, if I had trouble getting black powder but not one of the volume-for-volume substitutes, I would use it and accept any need for more careful cleaning. Most old firearms have had casual, though with luck not negligent, cleaning at some period in their lives. But an original Snider should be getting Pyrodex-level cleaning no matter what you use.

I think not using smokeless in any black powder rifle is more extreme than we need to go. When we consider what people do with Cadet Martinis, for example, when the cartridge is modern, I'd have no qualms about smokeless when the cartridge isn't. Always provided that the strength of the brass matches the powder.

The question of whether anything that happens in a smallarms cartridge should be called detonation, in the sense that explosives engineers use the term, is a much debated one. They would mean the explosive wave-front moving through each grain and producing percussive ignition, at a speed far greater than any bullet. I doubt whether this is what happens, and the cause of chamber ringing, or bore bulging, appears to be just the reverse.

Paul Vieille, the inventor of smokeless rifle powder, did a series of experiments in which powder could be ignited in a sealed cylinder, of such strength that the gases remained confined. He found that when the powder was scattered along the cylinder and ignited at one end, the pressure rose uniformly in a quite satisfactory way. But when the powder was confined to the end where it was ignited, something very odd happened. The pressure rose to a much higher level at the far end. He was even able to make a measuring device in which the shift in weight could be demonstrated, and proved that this accumulation of dangerously high pressure, being elastic, bounced several times from end to end of the cylinder. That didn't require the powder to detonate. It still obeyed Piobert's Law as a propellant powder is meant to do, by burning in layers from the outside of the grain inward, like the skins of an onion.

Here is my photograph of an experimentally induced double bulge, caused by pressure building up against a bore obstruction, bouncing back to the breech face, and bouncing back again to the new location the projectile and obstruction have reached. This demonstrates that the gases move much faster than the projectile.

180067

Fillers do have their place in moderate cases, but produce dangers all their own. A light filler like Dacron or kapok have virtually no volume of their own, and about duplicate Vieille's localization of the powder charge. More substantial ones like cream of wheat or cork wads would be safer, for they not only reduce the burning space but are inelastic, and although the gases remain elastic, they at least don't have anything hard to bounce off. Various hard and gritty substances have been found to produce dangerous pressures, perhaps for a quite different reason. I think they tend to lock into a solid mass under impact, and have difficulty getting out of the chamber.

[EDG]

Various hard and gritty substances have been found to produce dangerous pressures, perhaps for a quite different reason. I think they tend to lock into a solid mass under impact, and have difficulty getting out of the chamber.

Black powder is a hard gritty material and I have noticed that a lot of BPCR shooters comment about shooting the forward end of 45-70 and similar cases off when loaded into a wet or oily chamber.
I have seen photos of black powder exiting a barrel and it appears to be a bullet pushed by a burning dirt clod. I would guess that the BP grains grab the case walls and pull off the front end of the 45-70 cases.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Black powder is a hard gritty material and I have noticed that a lot of BPCR shooters comment about shooting the forward end of 45-70 and similar cases off when loaded into a wet or oily chamber.
I have seen photos of black powder exiting a barrel and it appears to be a bullet pushed by a burning dirt clod. I would guess that the BP grains grab the case walls and pull off the front end of the 45-70 cases.

So it is. I've had the necks of 8x60R Portuguese cases pulled off, without signs of excessive pressure on the primer or case-head, when I tried dodging the inert filler problem by using a modest Reloader 7 charge and filling the case with British black powder, which was going through a phase of being rather weak and hard to ignite at that time.

Sand is odd stuff. Contrary to what you might expect, a bullet will travel further in damp sandbags than in dry ones. Dr. Franklin Mann, writing in 1910, describes how he wanted to experiment with a reduced charge and yet keep increased airspace out of the variables. So he used sand as a filler, presumably in a condemned barrel like my shotgun's. The case-necks were torn off and departed with the bullets. I think the tendentoocy is for it to lock into itself and the case neck under impact, but it is reduced by lubricating dampness.

I have General Journée's "Tir des fusils de chasse", a book surprisingly relevant from a man who fought in the war of 1870 but unlikely ever to be translated or even reprinted. It has too many odd mathematical symbols to typeset, and is usually too badly printed to photocopy. He describes tests in which, unsurprisingly, rubber wads sealed well but gave dangerous pressures, and cork ones low pressures but poor patterns. Cork compresses lengthwise with little lateral expansion. More surprisingly rice as a wadding material (Why? I don't know.) also gave excessive pressure.