old, not even sure what this is called, but i have it for now. pic heavy

[eggwelder]

Found this at my local second hand store. $60 Cdn. it is rifled, about a 1/4 twist in the 8 inch barrel. silver inlay not all that well done. barrel tapers from 1&1/16 across the muzzle, to 15/16 at the breech. there is/was silver inlay in the stock as well, better done than the barrel. appears to have 3 letters in silver. API or IPI. lock is missing, and stock needs a lot of TLC. bore is good, but frosted...i do plan on restoring this to firing condition. bore measures 37/64ish
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad37/eesbye/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpszyymzfvw.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/eesbye/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpszyymzfvw.jpg.html)
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad37/eesbye/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpskpmrdozn.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/eesbye/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpskpmrdozn.jpg.html)
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad37/eesbye/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpswumzvo4o.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/eesbye/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpswumzvo4o.jpg.html)
the "letters"http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad37/eesbye/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpssc2fm6xv.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/eesbye/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpssc2fm6xv.jpg.html)
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad37/eesbye/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshrebpjiv.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/eesbye/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshrebpjiv.jpg.html)there are more pics, but anyone have any idea? i`ve removed the barrel, breech plug does not appear to be removable.

[Omnivore]

Interesting find! I hope you find a suitable lock for it. Fitting a couple of new side plates shouldn't be too awfully difficult. The wood looks like a real challenge though. 58 caliber then, within a couple thousandths (close enough for government work, I reckon).

I'd remove the barrel and give it a light proof test, or three, before trusting what is apparently a very old breechplug. The term "backfire" comes to mind. The old school guns often had a lot less thread depth at the breech than we tend to use today (which is an issue when trying to "reproduce" the old architecture - the location of the fence, pan and flash hole need to be farther forward now, unless one goes with a patent breech and drills through the threads).

Possibly shallow thread depth + questionable iron + age means I'd be pretty dainty with loads.

I think I'd be tempted to set the old iron aside and rebarrel the old wood. That is, unless it turns out to be something historically significant, in which case I'd leave it as is.

[khmer6]

neat looking. at first i thought it may of been some kind of blunderbuss type but the rifling in it makes you go hmmmm

[bedbugbilly]

Turkish or Middle East maybe? First thing that comes to mind is an easy carry on a camel. To me, it resembles some of the ornate turkish/middle east pistols that you run across once in a while. It's an interesting piece!

[eggwelder]

the flash hole angles forward about 45'. gives about 5/8 to 3/4 of breech plug.
are these just referred to as pistols or is there another name? it`s just over 17 inch long, and has a shotgun like front sight.

[GoodOlBoy]

that's just a danged neat piece! I never find stuff like that!

GoodOlBoy

[Dan Cash]

I will vote for Spanish with a Miquilet (sp?) lock. Inlet does not look like it is for a conventional side lock.

[fouronesix]

For lack of a better term I'd call it a flintlock (possibly Miquelet type) knee gun. Being rifled is not normal for those however. Is it rifled all the way to the breech? Think of it as a 18-19th Century version of a sawed-off shotgun. It looks definitely local smith made and could be from anywhere. I wouldn't discount North African or Middle Eastern or pirate or "hiwayman" and yes even Spanish with Moorish influence.

Also the silver inlay, while crude, is common to many guns and blades of Islamic origin. The symbols on the breech could be a date but are difficult to read with certainty. If in fact they are an Arabic date, it could be read as about 1709.

[pietro]

.

Early firearms of that type were not designed to be fired from the shoulder as we do today - the short butt was either held against the shooter's cheek, or braced against the shooter's hip.

Originally starting as a barrel tied to a stick that held the ignition source, they were later referred to as an "arquebuses", and/or "handgonnes", because they were originally fired while held only with the shooter's hands - which then evolved to the short buttstock in medieval times.


http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~dispater/peterson_1499.JPGhttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a4/0c/ce/a40cce48394b6ebed5338f04a4b299a6.jpghttp://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/140518/910890749/wm_md_3774079.jpg

[SSGOldfart]

Would make a nice winter project,you could let us in with lots of photos along the way to:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
Good time to test Andy's rust blurring,see special projects section

[725]

My first thought was a canoe gun, but the possibility of Moorish type influences seems strong. What great research project!

[eggwelder]

it is rifled all the way. i`ve removed the barrel and given it a light cleaning in the outside with gun oil and 0000 steel wool. the silver shone right up, and the rust for the most part came off. have the bore soaking in evaporust. after i clean the rest of the metal with oil and steel wool, i`ll be deciding if will re blue/brown. it looks nice now, will post a pic later. the wood is also extremely dry, thin and brittle. i think a copy in walnut might be in order? i`d be able to inlet whatever lock i`d like then. thoughts?

[mooman76]

I myself wouldn't reblue it. Just keep it oiled and it has a good natural look.

[OverMax]

Looks like a short range canoe weapon to me. Perhaps a trappers creation. You're aware back in the day when a trapper hunkered down over a long Canadian winter in his log shack. Some trapper probably whittled the thing due to having a broken stock rifle or one with a budged barrel perhaps. If it were a far East weapon it would have a elephant or a genie poping up out of a lamp maybe a huge scimitar sword carved. If anything this piece shown has some German influence.

[AK4570]

That is an immensely interesting piece... As previously noted, why don't I ever find stuff like that?

[fouronesix]

No doubt a project :). Does it look like the barrel channel was originally for a round or octagon…. since most of those were smooth bore, round barreled with a flare towards the muzzle. It almost looks like there is a channel flare near the forend tip?? If so it could have started life as a round barreled smooth bore then the barrel was changed to a rifled octagon later?

I think I'd just clean it up good and re-brown or let go as-is. As to the type of lock to use?- probably just a regular flintlock that fits (more or less). Given its possible age, it could have even been a snaphance type flinter, where the frizzen is T shaped- not L shaped like the more familiar types.

[w5pv]

A very neat and odd weapon,I think I would preserve it the bet I could and put it over the mantle.

[Tatume]

Very nice. I hope you'll keep us informed as you learn more about it.

[fouronesix]

No doubt it is unusual compared to known examples of that type firearm- namely a knee gun or more appropriately a knee pistol.

For sake of full disclosure and suspicions, even though they may not be correct, it also shares the look of what's called a composite bazaar piece (for tourist trade). Just something about the way the tang/breech plug looks and the incongruity of a rifled octagon barrel fitted to what's normally a smoothbore round/flared barrel type firearm.

Again, not saying that is what it is, just opening up the possibility for consideration.

Given the crude silver inlay, the difficulty of ciphering for sure and as I said before- the silver markings at the breech on either side, could be Arabic "11Y1" which is 1121 numerically. The date 1121 Arabic (AH) calendar translates roughly to 1709 Gregorian calendar.

Interesting item no matter what it is.

[eggwelder]

No doubt it is unusual compared to known examples of that type firearm- namely a knee gun or more appropriately a knee pistol.

For sake of full disclosure and suspicions, even though they may not be correct, it also shares the look of what's called a composite bizarre piece (for tourist trade). Just something about the way the tang/breech plug looks and the incongruity of a rifled octagon barrel fitted to what's normally a smoothbore round/flared barrel type firearm.

Again, not saying that is what it is, just opening up the possibility for consideration.

Given the crude silver inlay, the difficulty of ciphering for sure and as I said before- the silver markings at the breech on either side, could be Arabic "11Y1" which is 1121 numerically. The date 1121 Arabic (AH) calendar translates roughly to 1709 Gregorian calendar.

Interesting item no matter what it is.
i am starting to think in a like mind, except i think it was meant to shoot. there is a threaded hole on the bottom of the barrel, probably for a ramrod thimble. the inlay was done by two different tradesmen of very different skill levels and probably different cultures. this is the front of the barrel, the previous pics show the back half.the breech looks like a patent breech, and the bore should take a .577 minie ball. if i fire it, it will be with a triple patched .50 ball, or buckshot. then it will hang on the wall between my russian sashka sword and my british frankensword.
will try get to proofing it this week with a light(50 gr) charge lit with cannon fuse, and i`ll strap the barrel to a 2x4 to a tree. if anyone has a working flintlock lock that may fit, please PM me.
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad37/eesbye/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpswl2lt06g.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/eesbye/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpswl2lt06g.jpg.html)

[fouronesix]

Good idea to proof it- at least with a "service like" charge. If the breech plug is threaded well or otherwise adequate, then a 50 gr charge under a roundball should be no problem. If it is not a bazaar composite piece then it could very well have been rebuilt/re-barreled for real use. That was very common in the past. The stock for certain looks very legit and is old… to my eyes. Those silver inlay designs look Islamic to me and as I said earlier, have an Ottoman look or maybe a Qajar Persian or Caucasian look. But historically, the Islamic influence stretched from North Africa through the Mediterranean, through southern Europe, most of the Middle East, through the Baltic and Caucasus, and into Indonesia/Malaysia and SE Asia- not to mention the vast ocean trade. In other words a rather large area!

If it is as old as it appears to be, the lock could have been any "one of" type and may not be a match to any current or available lock size. About as good as you could do would be to get a lock of the approximate size, with the critical orientations for the trigger bar/sear bar and having the pan line up with the touch hole. Then, with some creative use of tint-to-match bedding compound, set it in.

One other thing to consider would be to fashion a brass barrel band to secure the barrel to the stock. Historically those were normal and were of every design imaginable- so no worries about being HC.

[eggwelder]

measured the depth of the bore, and there is only just over 1/4 inch of breech plug. i`m thinking that it might just be for looking at, as suggested by a few, and not for actual shooting, although it would be fun to proof it with a small charge. so far, i have cleaned it and reassembled it. i don`t think i`ll spend any more money or time on it, and hang it on the wall.
we all got to pay for our educations.