Had a scare at the range today with a 1911.

[OptimusPanda]

I went to the range today and brought my SW1911 which has never given me a problem from a function standpoint. The ammo I was gonna shoot were my greendot handloads that have never been problematic either.

Now the story: Loaded two magazines, eight rounds fired, slide locked open, magazine change, drop slide. Somewhere in the second or third round in this mag something happened. A very loud bang, I am pretty sure it doubled, and I had about a dozen tiny pieces of brass and one sliver of lead hit me. When this immensely short event was over I calmly dropped the magazine, emptied the chamber (it had fed a new live cartridge), checked myself for blood (as I felt lots of little small things hit my forehead, arms and hands) no blood just a bunch of pin pricks. So I began looking for evidence as to what the bleep went wrong...
*disassembled pistol, found no problems
*checked for hammer push off, nope
*reassembled pistol and dropped the slide on an empty chamber a couple times to see if I could get the sear to bounce and let the hammer go, nope again
*found all the brass cases on the ground expecting to find one blown out or otherwise showing excessive pressure signs, negative Batman

I was the only shooter on the line at the time so other people can be ruled out. My best guess at the moment is the first round in the doubling was what hit me and caused the noise. My flinch from that may have let me pull the trigger again, leading to the second shot. After all this was over, having found nothing wrong with the gun I loaded 4 rounds into a magazine and shot them holding on in case it did double again, it didnt. Nothing here seems to make sense. The loud noise and excessive recoil sounds like an overpressure but that should also show on the case and primer, they all looked normal.

[Skipper]

Accidental Bump Fire maybe?

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-50142.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UumQvPGQNis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGYV1fH05O8

[OptimusPanda]

The rate of fire sounds about right but it wouldnt account for being peppered by fragments.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

could there have been a void in the boolit ?

[OptimusPanda]

It is possible it got through a sorting but wouldnt it just leave the barrel in pieces out the muzzle?

[fishhawk]

Sounds like a high primer to me.

[imashooter2]

Sounds like a high primer to me.

My first thought as well.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i never had a high primer but that sounds right

[white eagle]

pardon but what is a high primer

[M-Tecs]

pardon but what is a high primer

A primer that is not fully seated. It sticks up over the case.

[fishhawk]

A high primer is a primer that sits above the bottom of the case IE not seated down all the way, and when hit by the face of the slide it goes bang.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

didn't seat the primer all the way in the primer pocket

[white eagle]

I see thanks

[OptimusPanda]

What is more puzzling to me is I am currently staring at the 16 cases that I described above, they all look totally normal. No splits, no jagged torn case mouths, and no primer flow. I know I was hit by brass and lead as I took a piece of lead out of my hand and brass out of my forearm, but looking at these cases they arent missing any.

[runfiverun]

stuff flies out.
if the primer is slapped hard enough to go off, the round doesn't care where it is.
I would bet the second round was your problem child not the first, and it wasn't fully chambered when it fired.
I have watched many, many rounds being fired that will throw sparks and smoke out of the ejection port.
the second round going off early would have been pointed differently than the first one going off, think about where the ejection port is under recoil, and where a case is during that time.
the high primer could have been set off as soon as it slid under the bolt face, it didn't have to be the firing pin hitting it.

[OptimusPanda]

So this may just be a case of watch for high primers and keep a short leash on it?

[country gent]

It does soind like a slam fire event more so than any thing else. A complete disassembly of the action vissually look for chips or uneven wear on sear hammer mating surfaces is in order though. Clean firing pin and its mating channel in the sldie. may vot have been high primer but a sticky firing pin also. Check rest of ammo for any high primers. Ussually a slam fire blows out the case head at the unsupported area.

[OptimusPanda]

Yeah thats half why I wouldnt believe the story if I told it to me. I have all the brass nothings blown out, I plan on detail stripping it to make sure nothing is going on inside but if I dont find anything, and it runs through a checked box of handloads and/or factory rounds I'm tempted to leave well enough alone.

[jrayborn]

I wonder if perhaps a smaller casing was in the 45 case as well as powder and boolit? Do you load on a progressive? I came very close to loading a round like that once. I don't remember the combination but had I not caught it it would have been a complete round and likely shootable, although quite dangerous.

[OptimusPanda]

Funny you mention that, that was one of my first ideas. I did find a 9mm case on my bench afterward that had not been there before. However I had disregarded it almost immediately as there wouldnt be enough room left to seat a bullet if the 9 were stuck in the 45. That, and the decapper wouldnt be able to remove the spent primer anyway. I think the blast from whatever happened knocked it down from the target carrier track, or atleast thats my best wild guess.

[ebner glocken]

Consider it a cheap lesson, visually inspect all rounds after loading. One high primer that fired OOB and nobody got hurt, gun didn't get damaged. It sounds like the worst thing that happened is you might have had to clean out your shorts.

Ebner

[MtGun44]

Any possibility of a .40 S&W round getting into the mix and then the case
not be seen on the ground nearby? Or if seen, ignored as "not mine"?

[Schrag4]

OP, do you feel it's possible you bump-fired the gun? Some will say handgun bump-firing is not possible, but I don't think it's a stretch at all. I actually think it's just as likely as a high primer, especially given the fact that you were hit by lead splashback, perhaps causing you to involuntarily release the trigger and maybe even ease up on your grip for a split second while the gun was still recoiling.

It's my understanding that a firing pin that sticks is more likely to cause a failure to feed, as the rim of the case is not able to continue sliding up into the extractor since the firing pin is in the way. It's what I've been told, anyway, and it makes sense to me. It seems like a high primer would be much, MUCH more likely to simply seat the rest of the way without going off. Heck, the firing pin will do that (seat it without setting it off) on high-primers, so IMO it's less likely that the slower moving breach face that has more surface area contacting the primer will set it off. I could be full of it, though.

[Fishman]

Any possibility one of the .45 brass you picked up isn't yours?

[w5pv]

I see thanks
with a revolver you may experience the clyinder hard to turn because of a high primer.I have had thi to happen and now double check the primer seating.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I had the same thing with a Beretta 92. My hair blew back little pieces of brass was found everywhere. I came off the line and checked my gun. Couldn't find anything wrong with it. I called Beretta and they said I had an incipient case head failure which I have heard of with the .45 ACP. It's a failure of the brass case. The Beretta is designed to allow the overpressure to blow without damaging the gun. Beretta said I didn't need to send the gun in for inspection.

As it's been explained to me, some brass manufactures don't have sufficient thickness around the base and case will blow out the rear.

I was shooting factory loaded practice ammo when this happened to my Beretta 92.

The stories I've heard of this with the 1911 and it's pretty scary just like you describe, but no reports of injury.

I've wondered if steel frame 1911's are safer than alloy frame to protect the shooter when this event occurs.

[AK4570]

Whew! Glad you are OK! If you did inadvertently bumpfire, the "peppering" could have been secondary debris from wherever the second round impacted(i. e. Spent casing on range floor) Again, I'm glad you are OK.

[smokeywolf]

Have you decapped the cases yet? Check each primer as you push them out of the cases.

[OptimusPanda]

Nope they were all 45s, all were remington cases with winchester primers (what I loaded this batch with). Not that that's a hard combination to find but I am one of the few reloaders at my club so I am inclined to think I have them all. I will be taking the primers out of all of them to see if the sides of the cups were blown out and then shoved back into the pocket. As for bump firing I suppose it is possible as I was shooting horrible that morning.

[skeet1]

OptimusPanda (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?37558-OptimusPanda)
I once had an old GI .45 that had a worn disconector that would unload a totally loaded magazine before you could think about what happened. You might want to check your disconector for wear or breakage.

Ken

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I don't see how a high primer, a worn disconnector or a bumpfire would cause brass fragments to pepper the shooter.

We had a name brand 1911 blow using factory name brand practice ammo. The barrel was slightly bulged and the slide was torqued so that it would not operate on the frame. We figured a .40 got into the barrel of the .45 like MtGun44 posted. The shooter in this case denies this as a possibility.

Since reading this I'm tempted to go buy fresh Starline brass. Tough since I have unlimited access to an unlimited supply of .45 ACP. I just don't shoot it as much as SA revolvers.

[OptimusPanda]

Heres an update, although it isnt much of one. I decapped all 16 cases fired, all components (primer cups, anvils, and decapped cases) they look totally normal. Detail stripped the pistol, found nothing wrong. Hammer, sear, and disconnector all look fine and function fine after reassembly. I plan on running a box of factory ammo though it a couple rounds in the magazine at a time, if all goes well I'm inclined to think it somehow bumpfired since if it had slam fired on a high primer I wouldnt expect all the primers to look ok once removed from the cases.

[22cf45]

Sounds like a double powder charge to me.
Phil

[Jeffjmr]

Pardon me if I missed this though I read the entire thread, but how many holes were in the target?

Seems all are focused on why the malfunction (certainly want to know) but I am still more curious as to where the brass came from.

Jeff

[tomme boy]

If it was a high primer, would it NOT have a pin strike????

[jhalcott]

I had a 1911 go full auto when I was in the Navy in the 60's. We were qualifying at San Diego base. I inserted the mag on command, then dropped the slide when the chief said to. Immediately the gun BURPED and my arm was driven vertical! That chief had a WHOLE new language for me. I looked up and the slide was closed. I told the chief HIS gun was F'ed up. and handed it to him. He studied it for a second, then worked the slide. TWICE, as the hammer followed each time. I have been told that this COULD NOT HAPPEN with a 1911 several times. These were NOT new guns and had been refurbished at least once in their history. I got another gun from the armorer and put all five (that's what we got to qualify with) in the black at 50 yards. I must admit that first round had ME on edge! I have never found out what happened with that gun. I was taught by Grampop, NEVER put your finger on the trigger till you are ready to shoot.