.451" Volunteer: proper boolit size?

[Argentino]

Howdy,

A couple of months ago I´ve acquired a 2 band Volunteer Rifle.

It´s a .451" cal, Italian copy made by Euroarms.

33 in. barrel/Henry rifling (the 2-banders are supossed to have a Parker Hale barrel, although I´m not quite sure about this).

The owner also gave me a Lyman single cavity (457121) but he didn´t know the right boolit size for this rifle, as he didn´t cast for it (a friend did all the casting and sizing for him).

I´ve finally had the time to cast a few yesterday (pure lead) but they are too large in dia. as they drop from the mould.

So, my basic question is: How to determine the proper boolit size when it comes to a muzzleloader? I´m gonna need to find this out before buying a push-through sizer of the right diameter.

I´m also concerned about how to measure a boolit engraved by Henry rifling. It doesn´t seem to be easy, though. :confused:

Thanks,

Argie.

[Tatume]

This is the correct mold for the Parker-Hale rifles (Lyman 451114):

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/497427/lyman-1-cavity-bullet-mold-451114-45-caliber-451-diameter-450-grain-volunteer

I do not know what the Italian copies use.

As cast from pure lead or nearly pure lead, these bullets are stiff to get started, but hold position well when loaded and carried for a long day of hunting. This is how I prepare my rifle for hunting.

For practice, I run my bullets through a 0.450" sizer, and they then start easily, and are very easy to run home. Point of impact at 100 yards and muzzle velocity are the same. Sized bullets make for a pleasant day of shooting at the range.

Track of the Wolf has them in stock, but the picture at Midway is better. For your convenience:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx/1200/1/LYMAN-451-114

If your barrel is one of the original Parker-Hale barrels, you will find this bullet to be accurate and hard hitting. My Parker-Hale rifle has killed a lot of deer, and hasn't allowed the loss of a single one. This is one of the finest hunting rifles I've ever owned.

Take care, Tom

[Tatume]

The mold you have (Lyman 457121) is the wrong mold for the Volunteer. This is the mold for the Whitworth rifle. Rather than size an oversized bullet, you will be much better off to get the correct mold.

[Southron]

IF you use a Hollow Base [Minie Ball type] bullet, the "Rule of Thumb" is that it should be sized to 2 Thousands of an Inch UNDER your bore diameter.

The best way to determine your true bore diameter is to go to a machine shop that has a set of plug gauges. A machinist could determine your bore diameter in just a short while.

I concur with Tatum that you need to "size" your bullets. Cast bullets come out of the mould at slightly different diameters. A sizer would correct those to all the same size.

Here is the Tony Bagdon article, considered the "Holy Grail" article about developing an accurate load. It applies to .451 Rifles just as much as it applies to .577/58 Rifles.

http://www.n-ssa.org/NATIONAL/CONTRIB/bagdon.html

[johnson1942]

what is the twist rate of that rifle?

[johnson1942]

i just looked your gun up on the internet. it has a 1/20 twist and 7 lands and grooves. it is .451 at the top of the lands and .463 at the bottom of the grooves. it will shoot between a 400 grain bullet and a 500 grain bullet quite accurate. you will want to size your cast bullets to .449 and keep the lead soft, no harder than 30 to 1. use a 60 thousands fiber wad between bullets base and powder. if it was mine i would single wrap paperpatch. use 18 pound freezer poly coated freezer wrap paper. it is avail at most good grocery stores. the poly coat of the paper goes on the surface to the bore. when you get the paper if that is what you want to try. measure two thicknesses of the paper and subtract that from .449 and that is the size of the push through resizer you will need for this bullet. you could also with this resized bullet do two wraps of number nine onion skin paper put on dry. no special onion skin is need, all wood fiber paper is very tough when put on dry. dont use any lube with paperpatching. use real black and wipe one damp patch and two dry between rounds. should drive tacks at any range. you could also get a mag spark nipple for this gun and use shotgun primers in it and then you could use blackhorn 209 powder. with blackhorn 209 powder you dont need to wipe between shots, just clean the barrel at the days end of shooting. have fun.

[Tatume]

I repeat, if you get the correct mold, you do not need to size bullets. I do so for convenience only. For hunting, use them as cast. All you need to do is lube them with your fingers. I use SPG or T/C Bore Butter; both work well, although SPG is slightly stiffer and works better in the summer.

Do not use a hollow base bullet in this gun. It is not needed, and will not shoot well. The fast twist, small bore rifles were built to shoot 450 grain elongated bullets, and it does so extremely well. Track of the Wolf has the mold in stock. If you have the Parker-Hale barrel, you cannot improve on the results you will get with this mold.

Take care, Tom

[Tatume]

Also, if you have a Parker-Hale barrel, you do not need to measure the bore. Just get the correct mold.

[Argentino]

Wow, didn´t expect so much info in so little time. I greatly appreciate it. Thank you guys.

Tatume, the previous owner told me he had good results with this mold. I understand that it might not be the right one, but I will give it a try:
I wish I had a chance of buying the right mold easily, but it can be a though task in my country. I´ll keep an eye open for a 451114anyway.

Not quite sure about the barrel being a PH. I saw that data at Euroarms webpage (for present Volunteer versions; mine is an older one).

Did anyone try to obtain an engraved slug out of a rifled muzzleloader? (without taking out the breech plug)

Does it make sense to do it? Or should I try different bullet sizes until I find one that fits right? This last option would be more problematic to me since I still don´t have many sizing dies to do it.

Thanks again,
Argie.

[Tatume]

Dear Argie,

You need a 0.451" bullet for hunting, and 0.450" for target shooting. You could try some pistol bullets, but they probably won't carry enough lube, and also will be over stabilized by your rifling. When your most recent post arrived, I was about to ask you where you are located, and if you were near enough I was going to volunteer (pun intended) to bring you some correct bullets. Alas, Argentina is too far for me.

Sizing your 0.457" bullets down to 0.451" will have one detrimental effect, and that is your lube grooves will be smeared and closed up in the process. If they remain open enough to carry a sufficient amount of lube, they will work. Your mold drops bullets at 475 grains, whereas the 451114 mold drops them at 450 grains. The weight and shape of the Whitworth mold are close enough to work well in your rifle. Your only concern should be keeping the grooves open to carry sufficient lube.

If your lube grooves are closed up by sizing, but you can still get some lube in them, you might want to try using a lube "cookie." You will need a tight fitting card wad (but not oversized), which you will push down on top of your powder. Then drop in a ball of lube about the size of a large green pea. When you seat your bullet it will squeeze the pellet of lube into a wafer, and the wafer will provide additional lube when the gun is fired. Be certain that everything is firmly pressed against the powder, as any air space can cause damage to the gun (and possibly the gunner as well).

Please keep us posted on your progress and (it is hoped) success. My Parker-Hale Volunteer is the last gun I would ever part with; they are simply magnificent.

Take care, Tom

[Good Cheer]

So far in a .458" bore diameter rifle I shoot lube groove heavies and paper patched pistol boolits.
Paper is definitely better for light weight boolits because it's been more difficult to get a good seal and prevent gas cutting.
Got an old NEI heavy mold around somewhere that needs to get honed for paper patching but well, the O2it factor is in effect.

[451whitworth]

If you cast the 457121 from pure lead they usually drop about .455" from the mold ( I have two). Fill the grooves with lube then push them nose first into a .454" die then again .452" etc. The grooves wont deform and close up when full of lube and when made from pure lead. I have done this many times because I really like that bullet's performance accuracy wise. It's always easier to start with a proper diameter mold. I have the Lyman 451114 Volunteer mold but have had better results with the 457121 in both original PH rifles and Euro Arms Whitworth and Volunteer versions.

[de Guers]

Mine : Parker Hale , italian . Henry rifling .
Bore diameter = .4518 "
Bullet : Lyman 457 121 PH , pure Lead , saeco 2 / BHN 5 . 481-483 grains .
1 ) resizing HI Lyman .452 , real diameter = .4513 !
3,60 g Suisse n° 2 .

2 ) Paper Patch Bullet , pure lead , 493 grains , down with HI .446 , final diameter = just .446" .
Onion Skin , False mouth and Paper Patch " en croix " .
4 g Mousquet tir ( 2 Fg ) or idem swiss N° 3 .

3 ) Hoch bullet 525 grains , down with HI .454 , .450 , .446 , .442 .
Onion Skin " two wrap " ; final diameter .450 " .
4 g swiss n° 3 .

Merci Monsieur Paul Matthews ...

[de Guers]

French " calepin en croix et fausse bouche " = " the strip patch consist of either two strips of paper placed across the false mouth of the rifle " .

[Argentino]

Sorry to bring back this old thread but since I´ve started it some time ago I think it is the proper place to ask.

Did anyone try Lee Improved Minies in .451 Volunteer rifles?

I´ve acquired a .454"-300 gn. Lee Improved Minie Mould for this purpose.

I plan to cast a few from pure lead and size them down to somewhere around 0.449"-0.450" (that´s what my rifle seems to like).

I know I should have bought the .450" but the LGS only had the .454" version (improved oversized Minie).

I´ll make my own trials with this bullet soon, but I thought it would be good to learn from other experiences as well.

Thanks,

Argie.

[dromia]

The mould you have works just fine in my PH 2 band and 3 band volunteers as well as my Whitworth.

The bullet is like a reverse Loverin with the driving bands getting progressively larger up to the nominal .457" on the band nearest the nose.

Most of the bullet should seat into the muzzle and then a slight tap with a short starter to engage it with the rifling then send it down with the ramrod as usual.

Try it out first before buying another mould, I just shoot them as cast and dip lube them in tallow and beeswax.

These volunteers have to be the easiest M/L rifle to get to shoot well, a good charge of 2 or 3 f powder and 400-500 gn bullet an you are good to go for accurate shooting.

[ResearchPress]

These volunteers have to be the easiest M/L rifle to get to shoot well........
I agree with that! :) When I had a '2-band' Henry rifled Volunteer I used a Lyman Postel mould (457132) - it was too hand and the deep grease grooves were OK with the sizing down. Using this circa 530 grain bullet, 90 grains of TPPH (similar to Swiss No.4/1.5F) and just a plain card wad I won several trophies - including setting a Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain national record at 600 yards which remained unbeaten for several years.

David