After 55 Years, Dad's Garand Comes Back to the Family

[smokeywolf]

137665 In the 1950s, Dad was a well thought of gunsmith and saddle maker. One of his personal projects was to redesign a milsurp Garand into a practical and very attractive sporter. After he had finished, he had this...He had taken 2 inches off the barrel, shortened the op rod, moved gas cylinder back approx. 8 inches and redressed her in a Mannlicher style stock, which he carved and checkered.
I was probably 3 or 4 years old when he did this checkering; I remember watching him do this.137666 137668

He had also taken nearly 3 pounds off the weight of the Garand in its original battle rifle configuration. In about 1960 he traded the Garand to a family friend for 3 Winchesters.

Jump ahead to April of 2015, I recently bought the Garand back from the son of the family friend who had traded three of his Winchesters for Dad's Garand.
137671 137669137670

I've been studying older threads on reloading for the Garand and although I know that my Garand's action will cycle most reasonable loads and will probably start out with a Lyman 311299 on top of 30 grains g/t of IMR 4895. My question at this time is, have any of you Garand owners found that one brand of en bloc clip performs better than another?

smokeywolf

[RKJ]

Your Dad did a good job. That's a good looking rifle.

[leebuilder]

That is realy neat.
thanks for sharing
be well

[StromBusa]

awesome, I always passed on them due to the "clubby" look....upset with self....

[pworley1]

I have never noticed a difference in the clips.

[Jack Stanley]

That gas cylinder modification looks familiar . I thought I saw something like that in Gun Digest or similar publication .

Jack

[smokeywolf]

That gas cylinder modification looks familiar . I thought I saw something like that in Gun Digest or similar publication .

Jack


That was a 1961 issue of Gun World. 137686

[Orlando]

SF, JMO are two enlocs I can think of that dont function well in some Garands. Stick with USGI enblocs and you will be fine

[JonnyReb]

Holy smokes Smokeywolf, What a phenominal homecoming!! Without a doubt the most gorgeous garand i've ever seen. An absolute treasure and moreso for you, never let that one get away again. J.

[nagantguy]

Great great news, good for you. Your dad had a keen eye and a skilled had!!! Never let her slip out of family hands!!! This made my day, thanks for sharing

[DonMerlin]

While I am not a big fan of modified Garands, this is the exception to that rule. A very beautiful rifle. You should be proud to have it back!

[JeffinNZ]

That's outstanding! You are so lucky to get it back and still in magnificent condition.

[lancem]

That's a beauty all right! The cheapest and best place I have found for clips is the CMP, that said I also got a great deal once on evilbay and they all worked well too.

[bradh]

Smokey I am just down the road in Tustin, CA. I have alot of USGI enbloc clips, they are free to you. Say like 15 clips...we can hook-up if you need them!

[doctorggg]

Wow! I love Garands and that one is absolutely beautiful. Your dad had a way with wood. A beautiful stock indeed. I've only used usgi enbloc clips mostly from CMP. They function very well in my CMP Garands.

[Hogtamer]

I'll trade you 4 winchesters for it??? :lol:

[smokeywolf]

Smokey I am just down the road in Tustin, CA. I have alot of USGI enbloc clips, they are free to you. Say like 15 clips...we can hook-up if you need them!

Thank you for your very generous offer Brad, but I expect the price of the fuel to get my truck to Tustin and back home would be equal to or even greater than the cost of buying the clips from CMP. Also, I'm thinking that I'd like to end up with around 40 or so clips.
Again, thank you for your very generous offer.

Would ultimately like to have clips loaded for hunting, gong ringing and paper punching, which means a variety of loads.

A paragraph in the Gun World article mentions that during the range test for the article, they loaded a couple of clips with GI, commercial, light and hot handloads that were subsequently fired slow and rapid fire, and that the Garand shot and cycled all without a single problem.

A pic from the article...137700

[bedbugbilly]

"A member of the family made it back home . . . " - hey, you can't ask for a better ending! Glad it's back in the family where it should be . . . I'm sure it will trigger many pleasant and fond memories of your Dad every time you look at it and shoot it! Enjoy and when it's time . . . pass it on so it stays int he family.

[N4AUD]

All I can say is WOW. I'm not usually a fan of modified Garands either but that is a work of art. Beautiful.

[smokeywolf]

"A member of the family made it back home . . . " - hey, you can't ask for a better ending! Glad it's back in the family where it should be . . . I'm sure it will trigger many pleasant and fond memories of your Dad every time you look at it and shoot it! Enjoy and when it's time . . . pass it on so it stays int he family.

I have two young sons who are already vying for the position of conservator of Grandpa's Garand.

smokeywolf

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Normally I would be sorry to see someone sporterizing a Garand. There are only so many left, and it is so often done badly. But this is a job Mr. Garand would have wanted to see done.

Three pounds is a lot of weight to lose with only 2in. shortening of the barrel. Did he turn down the barrel at all? Also I wonder why the military version needed the gas cylinder to extend further forward? Garand didn't build in weight without reason. They would be cooler gases there, and military rifles sometimes have to be used with long strings of rapid fire. But even inside the stock, that shouldn't be a problem with the kind of usage this one is likely to get.

For someone with the rifle but without a magazine they know about, www.bookfinder.com (http://www.bookfinder.com) is always worth a try. I experimented by searching for "Gun World 1961" and found that one. It has turned up quite a few important articles for me, some quite a bit older, over the years.

[smokeywolf]

Because of the many poor examples of sporterized milsurps, I too am usually opposed to the modification of fine old military rifles.

Other than the shorter barrel and placement of the new gas port, there are no further modifications to the barrel. I seem to recall him saying that during the R&D or T&E (trial and error) process, he shot out 2 barrels and wound nearly 300 op rod springs before getting the right combination of barrel port size and op rod spring compression and tension curve.

The rifle feels even lighter than it looks. My 13 year old has little trouble holding up.

I have 3 copies of the Magazine.

One more pic... This is the scabbard that Dad made for the Garand. 137750

smokeywolf

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Obviously he was no bubba. I wouldn't be surprised to find the barrel heating faster than in a normal Garand, but it doesn't have a handguard, and that is surely acceptable for the way it would be used. The chances are that he accurized it better than the average issue Garand, too.

[Powder Burn]

I run into a bad enblocs from time to time. They only thing I have noticed between good and bad clips are the inside dimension on the "bad" clips seem to be narrower at the mouth which may hold the rounds too tight. Doesn't happen very often. I confirm the "bad" clip with other rifles before I pitch them. Your rifle is very nice looking. How does it shoot?

[TNsailorman]

I fell under the spell of the Garand while in service in 1958. I carried that over into civilian life after I got out in 1962 and I still have one. That is a beautiful rework of the original and I like it. Enjoy and don't make a safe queen out of it. They were made to be used. james

[Multigunner]

Ballistics in Scotland

Also I wonder why the military version needed the gas cylinder to extend further forward?

The Garand originally used a gas trap at the muzzle rather than the gas port they later settled on. This may be why they ended up with the gas port so near the muzzle. It seems to have worked out fairly well. The cylinder is exposed to open air to cool quickly.

Another consideration is the types of powders available for .30-06 Ball production at the time, mainly IMR Dupont Improved Rifle powder which appears to work best with the Garand. IMR burns cooler with less erosion than the high nitro double base powders availble in those days.
The M14 gas system was designed specifically for use with the cheaper to produce low nitro content double base Olin Ball powders, which don't work as well in the Garand. The M14 bleeds off a small amount of high pressure gas then closes off, the gas then expands in the gas cylinder to power the stroke smoothly.

[smokeywolf]

How does it shoot?

Because he traded away the Garand before I was big enough to hold it up. And, because a recent foot injury has temporarily caused quite a hitch in my git-along, I have not yet shot the Garand; chompin' at the bit though, as are both my kids.

Hoping to work up a load that both the Garand and the 03 Springfield like.

With regard to what TNsailorman says about "don't make a safe queen out of it. I won't own a gun that I won't shoot.

smokeywolf

[NuJudge]

The bad ones I have found are made in France after WWII ("MAS"), and some that Greek surplus came on. The Greek ones were probably re-parkerized and re-used. Having had bad experiences with new production Chinese chargers for other rifles, I would assume they are bad.

Springfield Armory ("SA") are always good. People used to throw them away, and I 'Dumpster Dived' for them, and probably have thousands. Borg Warner ("BW" and "BRW") are good. International Silver ("IS") are good. You are not likely to see any others.

New US-made AEC are good, available from CMP.

[smokeywolf]

The bad ones I have found are made in France after WWII ("MAS"), and some that Greek surplus came on. The Greek ones were probably re-parkerized and re-used. Having had bad experiences with new production Chinese chargers for other rifles, I would assume they are bad.

Springfield Armory ("SA") are always good. People used to throw them away, and I 'Dumpster Dived' for them, and probably have thousands. Borg Warner ("BW" and "BRW") are good. International Silver ("IS") are good. You are not likely to see any others.

New US-made AEC are good, available from CMP.

Guess that's what I'm getting then. Ordered 2 packs (50 pieces) yesterday from CMP.

Thanks to all for your advice.

[lobogunleather]

In my experience the M1 rifles are not terribly finicky about ammo. But there are a couple of things to keep in mind.

First, the pressure curve should be kept as close as possible to GI ammo in order to assure both proper function as well as longevity of the op-rod and gas cylinder. Moderate charges of powders such as 4895, 4064, 4350, and similar burning rates with bullets in the 150-180 grain range will usually accomplish this. Your rifle has a modified gas cylinder and op-rod so any necessary repairs would be quite expensive (in today's dollars, not the 1950's variety in common use when your dad built that rifle).

Second, cast bullets can be a problem in the Garand's gas operated system. Some quantity of lead particles will invariably get into the gas cylinder and on the op-rod face, which can require frequent (and possibly aggressive) cleaning measures, which can shorten the useful life of those parts. I have been casting and shooting cast bullets for over 40 years, but I feed my Garands only jacketed bullets.

Best regards.

[smokeywolf]

In my experience the M1 rifles are not terribly finicky about ammo. But there are a couple of things to keep in mind.

First, the pressure curve should be kept as close as possible to GI ammo in order to assure both proper function as well as longevity of the op-rod and gas cylinder. Moderate charges of powders such as 4895, 4064, 4350, and similar burning rates with bullets in the 150-180 grain range will usually accomplish this. Your rifle has a modified gas cylinder and op-rod so any necessary repairs would be quite expensive (in today's dollars, not the 1950's variety in common use when your dad built that rifle).

Second, cast bullets can be a problem in the Garand's gas operated system. Some quantity of lead particles will invariably get into the gas cylinder and on the op-rod face, which can require frequent (and possibly aggressive) cleaning measures, which can shorten the useful life of those parts. I have been casting and shooting cast bullets for over 40 years, but I feed my Garands only jacketed bullets.

Best regards.

Thanks for that input lobogunleather.

Any repairs on my firearms I do myself and will therefore cost me more in the way of time, not so much money. I'm a retired mechanical designer and machinist with a fairly comprehensive, albeit very small machine shop. Although I wish I had my father's talent and expertise when it comes to stock work, I am actually more competent in the mechanics and machining than he was. Not trying to blow my own horn, he told me this himself.

Although jacketed 30 cal projectiles are not prohibitive in cost, I would rather shoot cast and perform a regular and detailed cleaning on the firearm (including gas system), than have to rebarrel it that much sooner from shooting copper.

smokeywolf

[Uncle R.]

Wow! That is a beautiful rifle and more importantly it's a family treasure. The scabbard is a work of art as well. Your dad must have been a fine craftsman and you should be very proud. Shoot it? Yes! Cherish it and use it and don't let it get away again.

Uncle R.

[smokeywolf]

I have always been very proud of my father's mechanical aptitude and talents as a craftsman. He was, during his lifetime, a silversmith, goldsmith, jewelry designer & maker, machinist, gunsmith, saddlemaker, and aerodynamics trouble-shooter for one of the biggest aerospace companies in the world. In spite of all his talents, he was actually very humble with regard to his abilities.

Without sounding too contentious, to put it mildly, he was, unfortunately, far less capable in his parenting skills. As can sometimes be observed in people of uncommon talents, he could get very frustrated. When that happened, if I was unlucky enough to be around, I became his vent.
As Dad was busy with his hobbies and projects and Mom was busy supporting Dad and his hobbies, Sister and I, to a great degree raised ourselves.

That aside, Dad produced more beautiful objects, items, models and works of artistry than most people do in 3 lifetimes. I am very proud of his accomplishments.

As I stated earlier in the thread, I have heirs who are already vying for conservatorship of the Garand.

Oh, and I also still own the three Winchesters that Dad's friend traded him for the Garand.

smokeywolf

[madsenshooter]

I'd like to show up at a CMP match with it, and listen to the fellows squawk! I think my dad had that issue of Gun World. He always had an interest in guns, big brother was a ball turret gunner, but he never had the money to play with them much.

[smokeywolf]

Although I do treasure Dad's, or as my kids know it, "Grandpa's Garand", I would also love to have a fine condition Garand in original battle dress. That could still happen one day.

[Adam Helmer]

That Garand is a work of Art for a Battle Rifle. I have several Garands and never saw any problem with clips. As a historian, I will always wonder WHY genius John Garand went to a Mannlicher Clip System for his fine rifle when he could have easily adopted a magazine system like the M1903 Springfield or the BAR. That en-bloc Clip for the Garand is a puzzlement to many folks. It just did NOT have to be an 8-round Clip. Without a Clip, the Garand is a Single Shot Rifle.

Adam

[Multigunner]

The Garand enbloc clip is the fastest and easiest reload system I've ever used, the only real drawback being that you can't top up a partly empty mag.

The action was designed to operate best with a certain range of load on the follower. Besides the profile contraints ten rounds of .276 Pederson would weigh about the same as eight rounds of M2 ball.

Detachable magazines of the 1930's were fairly prone to damage and deformation of feed lips, a common problem with BAR magazines. Mass production of rifle and SMG magazines was just not up to par till well after WW2.
I don't think the Garand would have been half as reliable had it used detachable box magazines.

[leadman]

Your Dads work is fantastic!
I do have a suggestion for the boolits you want to use in this gun if you experience leading. Try the Hi-Tek baked on coating. I have coated thousands of boolits and have only had leading issues with a few guns cut with chambers not in SAAMI spec. The were pistols and had no leade or throat.
I haven't shot my Garand with cast but have shot my M-1 carbines, AR- 15, and the SKS with no issues. Garand test to come soon.
If you have leading issues I would be willing to coat a batch of boolits for you to try.

[smokeywolf]

Very generous offer leadman and thank you for that info. I'm very anxious to get it out to the range, but must do at least a field strip on it first. Broken bones in my foot are keeping from navigating my shop. Hoping to be healed up enough about the time my order of en-bloc clips from CMP arrive.
Although I have cartridges sitting around for the 03, I still have to put some Garand specific loads together.

[Multigunner]

This custom Garand offers some real possibilities. If detailed plans could be drawn up I expect that duplicates built on aftermarket receivers and parts would sell very well.
The aftermarket receivers don't have the reputation for strength that the original milspec receivers have, but should be plenty strong enough for sporting use with the wide variety of commercial hunting cartridges that the action could be adapted to. .270, 280/7mm Express, 6.5-06 ,8-06 etc, along with a few of the belted magnum cartridges. A magazine well altered for more conventional loading and feed mght be advisable, though propriatary enbloc clips for the belted cartridges are a possibly solution.

Herter built a few straight pull conversions of the Garand that resembled this rifle, though not nearly as sophisticated.
These were chambered for his "Ram Magnum" cartridge line.

Modified M-14 or M1A rifles are okay for mid length cartridges, but the Garand receiver is well suited for much longer cartridges.

A buffer at the rear of the receiver would be a good add on if power levels are to be higher than that of M2 Ball.

[smokeywolf]

the Garand receiver is well suited for much longer cartridges.

Longer cartridges would require longer travel of the bolt which directly correlates with a longer gas cylinder. I'm pretty sure Dad shortened the op rod and op rod spring as much as function would allow. I have a hunch that the time and effort required (feasability) to lengthen travel of the piston - op rod - bolt, usable compression of the op rod spring, would not be worth it to satisfy a comparatively small demand.
Can see a possible translation to a similar sporter model from the M1A that would handle the same cartridge and loads as folks shoot in their M1A milsurp.

[Multigunner]

Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post

the Garand receiver is well suited for much longer cartridges.


Longer cartridges would require longer travel of the bolt which directly correlates with a longer gas cylinder.
I had meant much longer cartridges than cartridges in the same length class as the 7.62/.308 of the M1A action.

There seem to be a few belted magnums with maximum overall length about the same as that of the .30-06.
There are a few that would fit the M1A like the 6.5 and .350 Remington.
Theres a lot of difference in case capacity though.

Garand actions have been adapted to large bore belted magnums in the past, with very limited mag capacity.

[smokeywolf]

Going through this whole thread again, I realized I did not mention that the gentleman who is pictured shooting the Garand in the Gun World article (post #17) is the family friend who traded Dad for the Garand. I still have very fond memories of him, his wife and his son who has spent the majority of his life working with, buying, selling and leasing firearms.

[quasi]

Williams Gunsight company published a "sporterizing" magazine for milsurps in the '60's. The Garand is one of the subjects of this book.

[DW475]

That's one beautiful Garand!

[Multigunner]

Williams Gunsight company published a "sporterizing" magazine for milsurps in the '60's. The Garand is one of the subjects of this book.
I have one of those publications, and a Lyman gun sight catalog I got at the same time.