H&R 45/70 conversion to Muzzleloader

[waarp8nt]

Supposable you can have a gunsmith fit a savage breach plug in an H&R 45/70 and shoot smokeless powder much like the savage rifle.

Anyone ever do this? I done a quick search on the forum and didn't see anything, another quick search on the web found that has been done.

Fellow forum members, what are your thoughts? Open for questions, comments or smart remarks...

[bubba.50]

sign up over on graybeard outdoors, go to the H&R/NEF section & ask yer question. you'll learn more about these things than you ever thought there was to know about them. luck to ya & have a good'en, bubba.

[johnson1942]

i had a muzzleloader built on a h and r action for my son useing a douglas barrel. try john taylor on cast boolits here to do the work. i would never ever use smokeless powder in it and why would you when 209 powder does the same with out the risk. it would make a nice paperpatched muzzle loader if your talking a .45 cal with 1/20 twist. a 400 grain to 500 grain bullet would shoot great in it.

[dondiego]

If the firearm is already chambered for 45-70......................?????????





1000 posts with this handle!

[pietro]

.

While I'm not familiar with the dimensions of the Savage breech plug, it should be doable - I once threaded the rear of a .45-70 chamber to accept a Remington 700-ML breech plug, in which I installed a .209 conversion nipple, then adjusted it's seating depth in the rear of the .45-70 chamber, to get constant ignition.

With a H&R, I think I'd rather just shop around for one of the H&R Huntsman/Sidekick barrels for your frame, or just buy the entire rifle.

.

[bubba.50]

sidekick actions/barrel lugs are shorter to prevent barrel swappin' with cartridge guns so that they can be sold as muzzleloader only without all the restrictions of cartridge firearms.

[Good Cheer]

Paul Matthews wrote about muzzleloading a paper patched bullet in a single shot 45-70 and having a 45-120 or whatever.
I like the idea but haven't tried it yet. Still shooting the TC New Englander relined to use .457 diameter cast boolits.

[Southron]

Interestingly enough, the British Snider [a conversion of muzzleloading .577 P-53 Enfields to breech loaders] was designed so in an emergency-(if no Snider ammo was available) regular .577 cartridges made for the muzzleloading Enfield Rifle could be used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield

What was required was one empty Snider cartridge case with the primer cap removed and placed in the rifle's chamber. Then the nipple was unscrewed and the firing pin and spring were removed from he breech block. Then the rifle was loaded just like a muzzleloader and a percussion cap placed on the nipple and the hammer was cocked and the rifle fired.

That being said, the muzzleloading Enfield and the breech loading Snider was designed to fire ONLY Black Powder and NOT smokeless powder.

If you are planning on somehow using the H&R Trapdoor Action as the basis of your smokeless muzzleloading rifle, I remind you that the 45-70 Trapdoor action is a notoriously weak action.

[waarp8nt]

If the firearm is already chambered for 45-70......................?????????


My understanding is yes, the gunsmith machines the chamber end of the barrel to fit the savage breach plug. I have home shop machining skills and assume they would square up the chamber before cutting the threads for the breach plug. This conversion has particular interest here in Illinois where center fire rifle deer hunting is illegal.





1000 posts with this handle! Congrats!

[waarp8nt]

Interestingly enough, the British Snider [a conversion of muzzleloading .577 P-53 Enfields to breech loaders] was designed so in an emergency-(if no Snider ammo was available) regular .577 cartridges made for the muzzleloading Enfield Rifle could be used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield

What was required was one empty Snider cartridge case with the primer cap removed and placed in the rifle's chamber. Then the nipple was unscrewed and the firing pin and spring were removed from he breech block. Then the rifle was loaded just like a muzzleloader and a percussion cap placed on the nipple and the hammer was cocked and the rifle fired.

Interesting reading, Thanks!


That being said, the muzzleloading Enfield and the breech loading Snider was designed to fire ONLY Black Powder and NOT smokeless powder.

If you are planning on somehow using the H&R Trapdoor Action as the basis of your smokeless muzzleloading rifle, I remind you that the 45-70 Trapdoor action is a notoriously weak action.

The break open action SB1 or SB2 frame, not the Trapdoor, I should have been more specific. That being said, the trapdoor design could offer a unique configuration for a muzzleloader and the breach plug would be much stronger than a brass cartridge.

[waarp8nt]

A fellow member sent me a PM tonight that contained a website which offers replacement barrel for the H&R Handi Rifle / Ultra Slug. The barrel offered can handle smokeless or black powder with a 209 primer for ignition.

http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/

[Squeeze]

been done a thousand times go to dougs message board forum. theres a list of guys that will do the conversion with several types of breech plug. They are very accurate but kick some

[Jedman]

It requires drilling or boring the 45-70 chamber to 5/8" and tapped with a 11/16- 16 tap for the Savage breech plug. The taps can be bought on EBay for a reasonable cost, It could be done without a lathe but is much easier with one.

Jedman

[wgr]

It requires drilling or boring the 45-70 chamber to 5/8" and tapped with a 11/16- 16 tap for the Savage breech plug. The taps can be bought on EBay for a reasonable cost, It could be done without a lathe but is much easier with one.

JedmanAre just make your own breach plug. same-same

[Good Cheer]

Before making the conversion, why not try fired and re-primed but un-sized 45-70 primed cases?
That way you get to do the experimentation without the upfront cost of conversion. And of course it would still be a 45-70.
Note: Paul Matthews used some kind of safety mechanism to safe guard rifle when muzzleloading it with a primed case in the chamber.

[Tatume]

The conversion costs about $100, the guy on Doug's board (Slufoot) will turn it around and have it back in a couple of days, and they are extremely accurate. I have one done on an H&R 45-70, and my brother had one done on an Encore 45-70 barrel. The workmanship is excellent, the cost is reasonable, and the guns are excellent hunting rifles.

[Southron]

The main rules with a muzzleloader are whether you use Smokeless or Black Powder is:

1. When loading, always point the muzzle AWAY from your body.

2. Use ONLY two fingers on the ramrod.

3. Prime ONLY AFTER you have loaded the barrel, not before.

4. One certain way to blow up any muzzleloader to allow an air space between the powder and the base of the bullet. Always, always be certain that the bullet is seated on the top of the powder charge.

I began shooting black powder muzzleloaders in 1962, over the years I have had a half dozen or so "Cook Offs." A Cook Off is when you pour the powder down the barrel, the powder charge ignites. In each case, my hand was blown away from the muzzle. One such incident occasioned a visit to the local Emergency Room.

Theoretically, using smokeless powder would lessen your chances of having a Cook Off, but because smokeless powder pressures are higher-then there is a greater chance your thumb and finger would be injured worse.

CARTRIDGE TUBES:

The Winchester Sutler sells QuickCharge plastic Cartridge Tubes. They will make loading your muzzleloader in the field quick and easy.

What you do is to simply dump your measured powder charge in a QuickCharge Tube, then close the end with a bullet.

In the field, to reload all you would have to do is to remove the bullet, dump the powder down the bore and then ram the bullet home. Using cartridge tubes, you could get off two or three rounds per minute easily.

When the tubes get dirty, simply run them through your clothes washing machine and put them in the sun to dry. They will be as "Good As New" and can be used over and over.

http://winchestersutler.com/ShotLoad.html#QCTube

GOOD LUCK

[douglasskid]

Has anyone tried the smokeless barrel posted by waarp8nt designed for the H&R?
www.smoklessmuzzleloading.com

[Geezer in NH]

Why???????????????????

[waarp8nt]

Why???????????????????
<less than politically correct answer> Because the peasants in the state of Illinois cannot hunt the governor's deer with centerfire rifles.

<politically correct answer> Illinois Department of Natural Resources does not allow deer to be taken with a centerfire rifle. Handguns, Shotguns (slugs only) and Muzzleloaders are allowed with restrictions on Calibers and/or Gauge. Plus, the DNR offers the option of an extra season in the form of "Muzzleloader only season".

[John Taylor]

This is interesting. About 35 years ago I started changing H&Rs to muzzle loaders by making up new barrels in 54 caliber and using the lug off the shotgun barrel. The beach plug was made about 2.5" long to take up some of the space so a ram rod would fit under the barrel and still be long enough for cleaning. I had made about two dozen when Idaho change the law about hunting with muzzle loader and said the percussion cap had to be exposed, there went the 209 primers. I converted many of the rifle to except percussion caps so they could be used for hunting but there were a couple customers that wanted to keep the 209. A few years later all the in-lines hit the market. I still get calls for barrels but most in odd calibers and chambers, not muzzle loaders.