Finnish M39

[Warwick]

I recently purchased two very nice M39 Finnish Mosin Nagants for a better than fair price. I had another several years ago but sold it. Never tried cast bullets in it and am considering doing that -- after I slug the barrels -- on the recent ones. I know the bores on these rifles can vary considerably. One's a 1942 Saco, all authentic; the other's a VTK 1944 with what appears to be an almost new barrel and stock. My educated guess right now is that the former will slug ca. .310-11 and the latter .308-9. Anyone willing to offer advice, loads, bullets, moulds, etc.?
:?:

[Remiel]

2 M-39's! :-D:-D:-D:-D you lucked out, i have been wanting one for a while, they are wonderful guns, enjoy!

[Adam Helmer]

Warwick,

Welcome to the Forum; I see this is your first post. I especially like Finnish Rifles in 7.62x54RMM and have several including a Model 39. My Finns all prefer my Lyman #311467 175 grain semi-spitzer sized .309" and 2400 or IMR4198 powder.

I have slugged many bores and that was helpful information. My quick assessment involves putting a cast boolit into the muzzle of any rifle I am about to load for and see how far the boolit enters the muzzle. It is more "Art" than science, but after a while you will determine what the rifle prefers.

Again, welcome to this site.

Adam

[30calflash]

I had good luck in an SKY M39 with the 311291. Can't recall the particulars other than 20 grains IMR 4198 and std LR primers. Shot VERY well.

[1johnlb]

My 1945 Sako has shot just about everything that I have put in it well. It's not picky at all. The only load it didn't like was 13 grs reddot.

[Outpost75]

My M39 is a Tikka 1968 arsenal rework and this late-production barrel has a .313 ball seat ahead of the case, .3115" groove diameter and 0.2995" bore diameter with 250mm twist of rifling. I have gotten best results with HM2.312-160-5 cast of 1 part linotype to 2 parts wheelweights, using a Hornady GC, sized .313", Lee Alox-Beeswax in the grooves and then the entire bullet coated with LSStuff 45-45-10, using either 30 grs. of RL7 or 36 grs. of 4064, RL15 or Varget. A 1 grain tuft of Dacron tucked loosely over the powder tightens groups a bit, but isn't absolutely necessary with this nearly full-charge load, about 2200 fps. NOE's clone of #314299 sized .313" with the same charges and prep also shoots very well back to 300 metres.

Same bullets, cast of straight wheelweights, and loaded unsized and as-cast, tumbled in 45-45-10 and shot without the GC do well at 100 yards or metres with either 8.4 grains of Bullseye, 10 grs. of WST or Unique, or 12 grs. of #2400. About 1300 fps.

[hornady308]

I have one and use the Ed Harris recommended 13gr of Red Dot with the Ranch Dog 311-165. Nothing fancy, but it works and is cheap to shoot. I usually use acww and a soft lube.

[Motor]

I have 3, M39s all are VKT. All have groove diameters that fall between .310 and .3115

I cast a Lee 160gr 2R TL. This boolit drops at .313" to .3135" from my mould using a lead/linotype alloy and usually weighs about 167gr.

Since the boolit is a tumble lube design (thin multiple driving bands) I don't bother to size it and when I gas check them I use a .314" push through to install the checks. I use Lee A-Lox to lube them.

I have 2 basic loads.
1) 6gr bullseye (with 12bhn. unchecked boolit) for 1075f/s

2) 16gr Unique (with 15bhn gas checked boolit) for 1850f/s

I typically use large pistol primers with the sub-sonic load but have used large rifle too. Never had a problem with either.

For the 1850 f/s load I use large rifle primers only.

The sub-sonic load is VERY fun to shoot and will hold a 8" diameter magnum pistol swinger target at 50 yards without any trouble.

The 1850f/s load has shot less than 1" 5 shot groups at 50 yards.

It's my opinion that shooting cast is THE way to enjoy these fine rifles. At least when shooting in volume. I doubt you will ware it out shooting cast. :)

Motor

[MtGun44]

IMO, the Finns proved you COULD make a silk purse out of a
sow's ear. I have a number of Mosins and most are just barely
useful. Sticky, rough bolts, spooky variable triggers from shot to
shot, horrible short bolt handle located far too far forward and
many actions look like a failed 7th grade shop project.

No doubt that they are far better than no gun, and times were
desperate, but I have never found one to be particularly accurate,
or reliable beyond the sense that parts don't break. Ammo jams
in the chamber and is difficult to extract, the silly interrupter
sometimes prevents a round from feeding and the "stripper clips"
are, as far as I have been able to test, entirely useless, can't
push hard enough to move the cartridges in them. Sights are
about OK, but quite robust in the front, a good thing. Typical
groups at 100 from various variants range from 2.5-3" for the
best to bushel basket size for my M38 carbine.

OTOH, my M39 is a smoothed up version, with a better barrel,
better stock, far better sights with excellent protective ears,
great, consistent trigger and will shoot about 1" with decent
ammo.

[N4AUD]

My Fin M91 has an actual .308 bore. It is a tack driver with .308 jacketed, I've not tried cast in it yet. I downed a lot of deer with Nosler Partitions in that rifle. My only regret is since I only paid $50 for it, I guess I didn't value it much and cut the stock on it in my Bubba-like attempt at a sporter. Bad move. It now wears a 91-30 stock because finding a Fin M91 replacement stock has not been easy. Apparently they were made from unobtainium. If anyone has one for a reasonable price...PM me.

[Ken in Iowa]

I recently purchased two very nice M39 Finnish Mosin Nagants for a better than fair price. I had another several years ago but sold it. Never tried cast bullets in it and am considering doing that -- after I slug the barrels -- on the recent ones. I know the bores on these rifles can vary considerably. One's a 1942 Saco, all authentic; the other's a VTK 1944 with what appears to be an almost new barrel and stock. My educated guess right now is that the former will slug ca. .310-11 and the latter .308-9. Anyone willing to offer advice, loads, bullets, moulds, etc.?
:?:

I believe that you will find that both rifles will be in the .310-.311 range. Some of the earlier Finns had tighter bores and throats, but that ended about 1940.

M39s as well as the other rifles that received the D166 ammunition throating have generous throats indeed, long and wide.

I have just started playing with mine. My moulds are an NOE 311331 and a plain base 311284. The 311331 is an ideal 7.62x54r boolit. The 311284 should fill the throat better. We will see what happens. :)

[Warwick]

Wow! Thanks to all of you. Your replies to my first post are all most helpful, and your welcomes most appreciated. Got both bores spankin' clean and scoped. The '42 Saco is, expectedly, a bit rough, but I've seen much worse; the '44 VTK's very, very nice. Slugs next, and I'm expecting exactly what you all predict. Very glad I signed up for this forum. I'll report -- and probably have lots more questions. Thanks again.

[Warwick]

You were right on. The '42 slugged exactly .311 and the '44 .310. I've got moulds coming as well as some alloy for a first go at casting for these rifles. I'm leaving the SAKO as is, no alterations of any kind. It's a beautiful example of its kind. I may lap the bore just a bit, but she stays chaste and will shoot only lead. The VKT is a post-war arsenal restoration job, and a very good one. She's headed for Vintage Sniper matches wearing a PE scope in a receiver-top mount per the late WWII Russian design. The Finns picked up on the new mount idea late-on and built only 500 sniper rifles equipped with them, but they did indeed do it. I have no idea why they decided to halt production of these. I assume the new Finnish sniper took center stage. I'm really looking forward to shooting these rifles and tuning loads for them.

[Artful]

IMO, the Finns proved you COULD make a silk purse out of a
sow's ear. I have a number of Mosins and most are just barely
useful. Sticky, rough bolts, spooky variable triggers from shot to
shot, horrible short bolt handle located far too far forward and
many actions look like a failed 7th grade shop project.

No doubt that they are far better than no gun, and times were
desperate, but I have never found one to be particularly accurate,
or reliable beyond the sense that parts don't break. Ammo jams
in the chamber and is difficult to extract, the silly interrupter
sometimes prevents a round from feeding and the "stripper clips"
are, as far as I have been able to test, entirely useless, can't
push hard enough to move the cartridges in them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1sLqC5k6_4

[MtGun44]

Thanks for the link to the stripper clip explanation. Will check it out.

But -GRRRRRR! A cartridge is NOT a bullet and he must have said that 60 times.
Like fingernails on a blackboard.

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

Bill I noticed it too. Same as someone who claims to know guns, talking about Clips instead of Magazines.

Clips are for loading Magazines. They are not for loading pistols or rifles with removable magazines.

You can load magazines with stripper clips, but you can't load clips with magazines.

If a Military Gun has a fixed magazine it usually can be reloaded directly with a stripper clip.

A Garand has a fixed magazine and is loaded with an Enbloc Clip. An Enbloc clip stays in the magazine until empty, then usually it is either ejected out the top or bottom of the magazine.

I absolutely hate Liberal Gun Control advocates squawking about High Capacity Clips. it shows they know nothing about the subject.

I sincerely feel that no lawmaker should be able to write a law about a subject he knows nothing about.

Seems logical to me,,, but hey, that's just me?

Randy

[Clark]

139154139155

Off a gunshow table in 2004 for $90 I got an M39 Westinghouse 1915-18 Mosin Nagant hex receiver with a a 1944 Sako barrel VKT
I welded the bolt handle.
I drilled and tapped the receiver.
I milled out an AR15 riser to fit the hex shape, and made it fit better with glass bedding.

[Ken in Iowa]

You were right on. The '42 slugged exactly .311 and the '44 .310. I've got moulds coming as well as some alloy for a first go at casting for these rifles. I'm leaving the SAKO as is, no alterations of any kind. It's a beautiful example of its kind. I may lap the bore just a bit, but she stays chaste and will shoot only lead. The VKT is a post-war arsenal restoration job, and a very good one. She's headed for Vintage Sniper matches wearing a PE scope in a receiver-top mount per the late WWII Russian design. The Finns picked up on the new mount idea late-on and built only 500 sniper rifles equipped with them, but they did indeed do it. I have no idea why they decided to halt production of these. I assume the new Finnish sniper took center stage. I'm really looking forward to shooting these rifles and tuning loads for them.

The war ended for the Finns in September 1944. M39 production at the state rifle factory that was using VKT barrels at the time, stopped abruptly. Parts were stored until the 1960s when Cold War tensions rose.

Thousands of M39s were assembled from leftover parts. Stocks were in short supply, so new stocks were ordered which had a few differences from the original wartime production. Barrels came from various sources, leftover 1944 VKT marked among them. Perhaps yours was assembled at this time.

As for sniper rifles, apparently the Finns captured enough Russian ones to meet their needs. Scopes presented problems in the cold climate anyway. The famous Finnish sniper Simo Hayha preferred his iron sighted M28 over scoped rifles.

Finn rifles have become quite collectable. Avoiding permanent alteration is strongly advised.