5010-pd & wc-860...

[BCB]

One might consider me to be a bit crazy, but I purchased an 8-pound jug of 5010-PD many many years ago with a 48-pound purchase from Bartlett—I think. The price for it was $37.68 as we had free shipping and HazMat paid, or something like that…

Regardless, I have been into the reduced load shooting recently, just as another aspect of reloading. So, I put 34 grains of it in a 30-30 Winchester case with a Lee C309-150F on top. I am getting 1150 fps to 1200 fps and it is amazingly accurate. 3/4” groups are very common at 100 yards. The same charge works very well with the 311041…

The jug of 5010-PD says to use H-870 data. At that time, I also purchased an 8-pound jug of WC-860 ($45.29)—it says use H-870 data also…

I can get approximately 34 grains of 5010-PD in the case to the base of the boolit. I can get over 38.5 grains of WC-860 to the base of the same boolit…

Question: I wonder what percentage I could reduce the 38.5 grains of WC-860 and still be O.K. to avoid S.E.E. if indeed that phenomena actually does occur?...

The WC-860 would meter, the 5010-PD WON’T.

Any thoughts as I want to start out a bit lower than the 5010-PD charge as I am a bit uncertain as to the actual burn rate of the WC-860 and it is a ball powder and may act differently than the 5010-PD LOGS…

Thanks…BCB

[BCB]

Addendum:

I just looked and I have a canister of H-870 and I can get approximately 36.5 grains (100% density) to the base of the boolit. QuickLoad predicts 1133 fps with a pressure of 10820 psi…

Yet, I’m still a bit nervous with starting out with a 100% loading density (38.5 grains) using the WC-860…

BCB

[Maven]

BCB, I've burned quite a few #8 jugs of IMR 5010 (You're right, it doesn't meter well at all.) and WC 860 and still use the latter, but never at 100% loading density with CB's. I.e., in high[er] pressure cartridges such as the .30-06 and 8 x 57mm Mau., I use heavy CB's, LR mag. primers, and 46 - 48gr. In the 7.65 x 53mm Arg. Mau., only 43gr., but with a CBE 195gr. Loverin CB. In short, I've never had even an inkling of SEE with 860, and I doubt you will either in the lower pressure .30-30Win. cartridge. However, be prepared for lots of unburned powder (even with mag. primers), which will devilishly work its way back to the chamber and dent your cases. Btw, you can boost the burn rate by using several grains less 860, e.g., 33gr. and adding a filler of some sort (spherical shot buffer aka "poly," powdered bran, bran, Cream of Wheat) and lightly compressing the charge. I use Lee dippers for that: 0.3cc - 1.3cc worked well in the high pressure cartridges I mentioned, but be sure to store your cartridges with the primers facing you so the filler (especially the poly) doesn't migrate into the powder charge. Those same fillers in the same amounts also help tame the high ES/SD swings of 5010.

[BCB]

BCB, I've burned quite a few #8 jugs of IMR 5010 (You're right, it doesn't meter well at all.) and WC 860 and still use the latter, but never at 100% loading density with CB's. I.e., in high[er] pressure cartridges such as the .30-06 and 8 x 57mm Mau., I use heavy CB's, LR mag. primers, and 46 - 48gr. In the 7.65 x 53mm Arg. Mau., only 43gr., but with a CBE 195gr. Loverin CB. In short, I've never had even an inkling of SEE with 860, and I doubt you will either in the lower pressure .30-30Win. cartridge. However, be prepared for lots of unburned powder (even with mag. primers), which will devilishly work its way back to the chamber and dent your cases. Btw, you can boost the burn rate by using several grains less 860, e.g., 33gr. and adding a filler of some sort (spherical shot buffer aka "poly," powdered bran, bran, Cream of Wheat) and lightly compressing the charge. I use Lee dippers for that: 0.3cc - 1.3cc worked well in the high pressure cartridges I mentioned, but be sure to store your cartridges with the primers facing you so the filler (especially the poly) doesn't migrate into the powder charge. Those same fillers in the same amounts also help tame the high ES/SD swings of 5010.

Maven...

Well, I just returned from my shooting range and I went up to the compressed load of WC-860. That is in the neighborhood of 38+ grains. I used 38 grains as my last charge. I was shooting the Lee C309-150F with a CCI 250 primer…

Velocities and expansion ring measurements…

37.0…1414 fps…0.41825”
37.5…1438 fps…0.41830”
38.0…1440 fps…0.41850”

The expansion ring measurement increased considerable with the compressed charge of 38 grains. Accuracy appeared to have gotten less than with the 37.5 grains (0.65”) at 50 yards and the velocity of the 38.0 compared to the 37.5 was not much of an increase…
(I know that expansion ring comparison is to be done with a factory ammo load fired and then compared to a reload. But, I still think it helps determine pressures with reloads—it is numbers to look at. The lowest expansion ring measurement may not indicate pressure, and then again it might. But it shows an increase, if that happens, with increasing charge.)

It also appears that my lot of WC-860 is faster burning than my lot of 5010-PD. At 35 grains of 5010-PD, I am getting 1251 fps. with the 37.0 grain charge of WC-860 I am getting 1414 fps. That would indicate that the WC-860 is a bit faster, although I have not shot 35 grains of WC-860 to compare charges of the same weight…

I don’t think I would want to try to compress the WC-860 anymore than it is with the 38.0 grain-charge. I am going to mess with the 37.5 grain WC-860 load and see if the accuracy is better than the 35.0 grain load of 5010-PD…

Now I know…

Thanks to all…BCB

[Maven]

BCB, Did you compare those expansion ring measurements with those obtained with factory ammo? Did you use a knife edge micrometer to obtain them (Ross Seyfried argued that was the best way of obtaining accurate readings)?

[BCB]

BCB, Did you compare those expansion ring measurements with those obtained with factory ammo? Did you use a knife edge micrometer to obtain them (Ross Seyfried argued that was the best way of obtaining accurate readings)?

Nope, didn’t compare to factory as I mentioned. Note comment in parenthesis of my post…

I just figured that numbers could be compared. As shown the expansion ring diameters did increase with charge weight. I measured 3 of each charge and then averaged…

I used a Starrett micrometer and it is accurate. Still if it is not accurate, the error would follow through with each case…

I am going to attempt to shoot 35 grains of WC-860 and compare that to 35 grains of 5010-PD…

I feel safe using a compressed charge of 5010-PD and 37.5 grains of WC-860…

So far, without further testing which will be done in the future, the 37.5 grain charge of WC-860 has the edge on accuracy…

I have a few pics of the accuracy of 35.0 grains of 5010-PD. I was shooting at my groundhog sized silhouette @ 150 yards. I might post a couple of them later…

Good-luck…BCB

[BCB]

The attached pic shows 3 hits on the groundhog-sized silhouette at 150 yards…
(This pic shows exceptional accuracy, but the average at that distance will probably be in the 2” center to center)

The load is 35.0 grains of 5010-PD, Lee C309-150F, CCI-250 @ a velocity of 1251 fps…

The hold point was at the notch below the “smile” on the groundhog—drop is approximately 7” at that distance with a +1.3” at 100 yards…

The 37.5 grains of WC-860 shows similar accuracy at closer ranges. It will be tested at 150-200 yards in the future…

BCB

[Maven]

Great results, BCB! You can indeed compress 5010 without worry. If you add bran or Cream of Wheat, you'll boost the fps and get a better burn to boot.

[khmer6]

That is the biggest ground hog I've ever seen :eek:

[BCB]

Great results, BCB! You can indeed compress 5010 without worry. If you add bran or Cream of Wheat, you'll boost the fps and get a better burn to boot.

Just got back from chrongraphing 35.0 grains of WC-860 to compare with 35.0 grains of 5010-PD—both using the C309-150F and CCI-250 primers…

35.0 grains of 5010-PD==1251 fps…
35.0 grains of WC-860==1360 fps…

Appears that my lot of 5010-PD (Lot # 18484) is at least 2 grains slower than my WC-860 (Lot # AA8600)…

Can’t get the extra 2 grains of 5010-PD in the 30-30 case to get to the WC-860 velocities…

If the WC-860 shoots as good at 150-200 yards, it will be the WC-860 as the winner—more velocity and it meters beautifully…

Just my results. So, it appears that WC-860 is a tad faster than 5010-PD, at least in the good ol’ 30-30 Winchester cartridge…

Good-luck…BCB

[BCB]

That is the biggest ground hog I've ever seen :eek:

That just proves that everything is not necessarily bigger in Texas!!!...

Actually it is about only 1/3 bigger and it is actually fairly representative. Groundhogs standing 18" tall are not uncommon in fields where the ol' ones live and have not been blasted by those 22 caliber, 4000 fps cartridges!!! You know, the fields where you have to walk to and not drive to...

I can lay the sillhoutte on its side and that gives a smaller target for a 'chuck that might just be laying down munching on clover. It becomes a pretty good challenge with slow moving cast boolits at longer ranges. Holdovers are more than critical...

Good-luck...BCB

[BCB]

Thought I would show a pic of a target that I was shooting at today—the distance was 150 yards and the P.O.H. was the red 2” rectangle. I am shooting a Contender Super 14 in 30-30 Winchester cartridge with a Burris 3x-12x with parallax adjustment…

The velocities and groups are:
35.0…WC-860…311041…1313 fps…1.9” (Red Circles)
37.5…WC-860…C309-150F…1438 fps…2.0” (Blue Circles)
35.0…5010-PF…C309-150F…1251 fps…1.8” (Black Circles)

Each 3-shot group is what I was looking at. The overall group makes things look a bit lousy although only the one hit in the lower right hand corner is outside of the 2” lines from each side of the rectangle…

After the shooting session with the target, I set up 16-ounce beverage cans filled with water at the 150 yard target—no problems at all…

Gotta love that surplus slow burning stuff!!! When I purchased jugs of it years ago, I had no idea what to do with it, but it was cheap--$4 to $6 per pound—maybe less without actually looking for the invoice of nearly 15 years ago…

Also interesting was at the same time, I purchased a jug of WC-852. Mine has a burn rate of 4831 or dang close. I use it in the 30-30 with 35 grains and a 311041 cast of pure lead and then hollow pointed with Forester. I have taken several deer with that combo in an older Model ’94 Winchester…

The nice thing about it all is that it costs around $1.50 per 20 rounds to load this ammo. That is with older primers that were not 30 bucks per 1000. Still it is dang cheap to shoot…

My groundhog sized-silhouette is dead at 150 yards and dang rattled at 200 yards…

Ain’t benchrest accuracy, but just plain fun…

Good-luck…BCB