Quality Of Armi Sharps And Iab Sharps Kits?

[willdixon]

Gentlemen:

I have a long lifetime of experience with firearms, but am brand new with the Sharps, so please forgive my ignorance.

But I want to buy a new Sharps of the Quigley persuasion solely for long range benchrest competition and plinking. A 45/110 will do, but I'd prefer a 50/90. So my TWO question are:

1. Can any of you give me really valid first hand information about the quality of the ARMI sharps rifles, again preferably the 50/90? AND....

2. Can any of you give me any solid information about the IAB SHARPS RIFLE KITS? I love working steel, and would enjoy the kit, but the metal in the photos APPEARS to not have been heat treated in any fashion. And that would be a whole bunch of homework!

Thank you very much.

[45nut]

Welcome to CB , I cant help you with your questions but I will move the topic to where you will get some answers.

[waksupi]

I don't know about the kits. But, I do know it costs around $90-100 to get a reciever heat treated.

Welcome aboard!

[willdixon]

Thank you very much, Waksupi, for the welcome and for the information.

Fortunately, I am an amateru knifesmith, and I can heat treat all the parts other than the barrel here at home. But a barrel is a whole different ball of wax, and I would have a tough time with it.

[waksupi]

You shouldn't need to heat treat a barrel. I can't imagine any company sending out barrels, that weren't of the proper steel. Too big of a liability! We go through hundreds of barrels a year, all cold turned. This is standard with every maker I know of.

There may be others chime in on this. Right off hand, I don't recall anyone here working with the kits before, but who knows?

[Don McDowell]

Quality can be spotty on the Armi sport guns. There shouldn't be any need to heat treat the action as the Italian government makes the manufactures submit each gun to the government proof house before it can be sold.

For the 1000 yd competition I think you'ld be better off with the 45-110 , than the 50-90. Better selection of good long range bullets in the 45's, the amount of powder burned is negligible, and the cost of brass from Starline isn't enough difference to worry about.
Before buying one of the Italian guns it would certainly be worth your time to comparison shop CSharps and Shiloh.

[Knarley]

I still own one.These guns are barley fair at best. The wood to steel finish of 1-10 I would give a 4. The inner workings look like they were marked out with a thick piece of chalk and cut out with an axe.
The first one was returned because I needed a ramrod to knock the case back out of the gun after being fired. The second one that I still have, the chamber is supposed to be 45-70, but it is about 1/4 inch long. Between the stock and tang one can slide a toothpick through, daylight!!! After firing a number of times, that fippy-do saftey thingy broke and fell off. BUT the sucker shoots straight,go figure. I would rate this gun as horse poop, but it shoots straight, my sweetie likes it and has named it "Crazy Corra" after the gal in Quigley Down Under. In fact I'm going to use it to bear hunt later this spring. I can't recomend this gun, but I can't condemn it either. I wish that I could be of more help, but I'm being as honest as I can.
Good luck in your endevers,
Knarley

[Black Prince]

WELCOME Will Dixon. We are happy to have you here and we ain't proud, so jiss jump on in here.

I have an Armi Sports (Imported by Taylor in Virginia) Sharps 1874 replica chambered for 45-70 and have been more than happy with it. I shoot it in NRA silloutte matches and do as well as any of the other shooters and some of those guys have high dollar rifles. I did manage to break a firing pin, but since it is a Sharps, and since I always have a couple of extra pins when shooting a Sharps, I fixed it with one small flat head screw driver in about two minutes right at the range. That was three years ago and I've not broken another pin since.

I have not used or seen used an IAB Sharps kit built rifle, but I have seen their completed rifles at matches. They look pretty good, but not up to Pedersolli or Armi Sports (Taylor) standards. The case colors are muddy and some flats are rounded and the wood ain't the best grade. They do seem to shoot well however, and I have not observed anyone complain about them where I've shot. I have heard some complaints however, but you never know about such things unless you have first hand experience, and I don't. I just spend a little extra and get a better grade rifle to begin with. I figer you get what you pay for.

You say that you are an experienced shooter, but new to Sharps shooting. Well now pard, If you ain't never shot 40 rounds like what is required in NRA silloutte matches, or even more rounds in other types of matches, you may want to THINK about trying that before you lay out serious dough for a 50-90, or even a 45-110 for that matter. A 50-90 shooting an adequate bullet at adequate velocity is gonna ring yer chimes after about 40 rounds and so will a 45-110. Any time your rifle caliber begins with a four, and for dam sure when it begins with a five, you have a serious rifle, and it is gonna give you some serious recoil. That is easy to take for ten rounds or so, but when you are required to shoot 40 or more, it begins to be a lot like work.

If I wuz you, unless your experience with other rifles has been with big bores, you may wanna think about your choice of calibers and cartridges sum more. A 45-70 is about all most people want to strap on for 40 rounds, especially when you shoot from prone position. If you wanna bull ride, then bow up, give'm hell, and get a 50-90. But ya better not be a Coke ah Cola cowboy cause that is a real rifle and if you ain't up to ridin' it for the required number of shots in a match, it'll ride you.

We'll help you work up some loads for it. Let us know what you decide on.

[Boz330]

Will, if you want a rifle to work on, the IAB is your baby. The barrels seem to be very smooth and they don't shoot bad. Internal parts are rough and need a lot of work. My buddy spent 200 bucks getting the breech block square on his when he tried to rebarrel it. Seems the barrel was filed at the factory to fit properly to the block, instead of making the block straight. Some of the chambers that I have seen are way oversize and look like they were cut with a dull drill.
As BP pointed out the recoil in an extended match can get to you, and the IAB is not a heavy rifle to start with. I shoot a 40-65 and even that starts to get to me at the end of a long string of fire.
Not trying to diss the Italian made guns, but with the exchange rate right now the Montana guns are a bargain and customer service is a phone call away.
As other folks have pointed out the 45-70 is a good start and if you feel the need you can always rechamber for a bigger case. With some of the 45 borerider designed boolits you can get almost as much powder in the 45-70 case as a
45-90.

Bob

[calaloo]

Not even considering the exchange rate, if you like quality you would be better off with an American made reproduction. C. Sharps, Shiloh, and others all make rifles that are better and better looking than thier spagetti counterparts. If you buy Italian (with the possibility exception of Pedersoli) it is a crap shoot. You might get a good one but probably wont...experiance talking here. I've spent enough money trying to get an Italian copy to shoot accurately that I could have bought American. Subscribe to The Single Shot Exchange and The Black Powder Cartridge News and learn all you can. Just my 2 cents worth.

Bill

[montana_charlie]

After firing a number of times, that fippy-do saftey thingy broke and fell off.
I'd be leary of buying any Sharps pattern rifle that the flippy-do safety thingy could break and fall off of...because I can't imagine what the flippy-do safety thingy might be.

The only 'safety' I know of on a Sharps is the half-cock notch...and if THAT falls off you have a real problem...

Could it be that Knarley lost his fly?
CM

[willdixon]

Hi Bill -

Thank you very much for the great help.

There's a problem, however, for my buying American: (a) I just don't really have time to wait around a couple of years for a Shilo. And I would not want an Axtell, because their web site says their ". . . big calibers such as 45/110, 120 and 140 are not recommended. They are not very accurate. . . ." And I specifically want either a 45/110 or a 50/90. But when the rifle maker himself thinks those calibers are not accurate, I would not want one of his. And I haven't decided yet about C. Sharps.

Anyway - your thoughts are a great help - thank you very much.

Gene

[Don McDowell]

It not always necessary to wait for a Shilo, sometimes they have one ready that no one has spoke for yet.
C Sharps has an available list of rifles they have built and ready to go. If they don't have something just as you want it, they say its about 60-90 days to build one. The 75 model I got last December was 30 days from ordering to shooting.

If you're serious about getting into the long range stuff the last thing you need to have going in the back of your mind is the quality of your rifle. I shot my Armi Sport for a lot of rounds and did alright , but when things started breaking and Taylors aren't exactly real helpful in getting parts out to you....... :???:

You can always start with a 45-70 it will do fine to 1000 yds, get your feet wet and see just what you might want to change, and then that rifle is only a few quick twists of the reamer to a longer case if that's what you want. Starting with one of the long ones the only way to shorten up is rebarreling and that's not cheap.

[13Echo]

Axtel makes as well made a Sharps as you'll find from Shiloh or C Sharps. I personally think the 1877 they make is the more handsome rifle. They are also telling you like it is. The .45-110 can be made to shoot but it isn't necessarily easy. The .45-120 and the .45-140 just aren't target rifle cartridges and don't give enough extra performance to make them worthwhile for hunting (my opinion). What they do provide is more recoil, much worse fouling, and a lot more expense. If you'll look at the match results you won't find anyone having success with anything larger than the 45-110 and that almost entirely for long range shooting. The 50-90 does fine and can be very accurate but as a target rifle it will hurt you. Great for large game and light armored vehicles though.

Jerry Liles

[Boz330]

I'd be leary of buying any Sharps pattern rifle that the flippy-do safety thingy could break and fall off of...because I can't imagine what the flippy-do safety thingy might be.

The only 'safety' I know of on a Sharps is the half-cock notch...and if THAT falls off you have a real problem...

Could it be that Knarley lost his fly?
CM

Charlie,
He is not talking about the fly. The IAB has a, for the lack of a better word, a flippy do that blocks the hammer from impacting the firing pin. This thing is mounted to the breech block and when the block is lowered for loading it is automatically engaged. You haave to manually flip it to the side to keep it from blocking the hammer. Problem is that there is no detent or spring to keep it out of the way. If you brush it with anything it engages it again. My buddy lost a deer when his was accidentally re-engaged. He said that the sound of that hammer hitting the safety:shock: is instant afterburner lighting of a deer leaving Dodge impulse.
Gene,
C-Sharps stuff is quality and the wait is a little more reasonable. There is also ways to get a Shilo quicker but you will have to pay a small premium.

Bob

[willdixon]

Thank you guys for all your great help!

And one at a time:

Waksupi and Don:

Look at the steel parts in the IAB Sharps kits at http://www.iabarms.com/new.html They have not been heat treated at all, neither the barrel nor action. If the action had been case hardened, it would be a mottled blue/gray/green, and if the barrel had been heat treated it would be a blue color, unless they intentionally browned it. These are raw steel. And, as a lawyer myself, these Italian folks would not be too afraid of liability suits from America - jurisdiction and venue would make an American suit almost impossible. And yes, they're supposed to submit each rifle to a proof house, but there is nothing in their law saying they have to submit rifle PARTS to the proof house. And these kits contain only parts. I guess I'll take a pass on the kits, unless I can get better information on them. I wrote to IAB, but got no reply.

Knarly (good harley term!):

Thank you very much! Your information is exactly what I had hoped to learn.

Hi Black Prince -

Your information is also very helpful indeed!

But as to my staying away from Recoil, that's not a problem. I used to do a lot of shooting out of a .460 Weatherby Magnum, and ANY MAN OF ANY SIZE firing it five times in a row will have a beautiful big purple subdural hematoma the next morning. Worst of all, as I guess you know, the bigger a man is the more pain he suffers from recoil. The little guys just bounce back with the recoil. Big guys don't. And I'm 6' 2" and weight 220 pounds. But I can handle the recoil, trust me. And I won't be doing any 40 round runs at one time. I'm only interested in long distance, 1,000 yard shooting. But thank you very much!

BOZ330 - Bob -

Thank you very much!

And I'm writing off IAB on the basis of your observations.

I've owned two 45/70s, and loved them, but now I've got my heart set on a 45/110 or 50/90 - even if I don't shoot often and even if it recoils. I doubt, however, theat either of those will exceed my old .460 Weatherby Magnum.

Hi Calaloo -

Thanks for your help, and yes - after reading all this wisdom - I'm going to stick only with a Pedersoli or a C. Sharps. Thank you very much! And yes, I have subscribed to Black Powder Cartridge News and Single shot Exchange, and I've already gotten one of them in the mail.

Montana Charlie - thank you very much. All of you guys have told me exactly what I needed to know. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help!

If ANY of you are ever headed this Mayo, Florida, way - come see me!

Gene

[willdixon]

Thank you very much Don!

I'll talk to C. Sharps, and see what they say.

But I've already had to trapdoor 45/70s way back when you could buy them for nothing - when I was in high school. And I loved mine, but now I just want the 45/110 or the 50/90.

But thank you very much indeed for your kind help!

Gene

[Don McDowell]

Gene glad to be of some help.
Your timing on this one is just a bit bad. Quite a number of the longrange shooters like Kenney Wasserburger and other 110 nuts are in Pheonix at the Americas Cup Creedmore shoot. Those guys could really give you the straight skinny.
Matter of fact the thing is at the Ben Avery shooting complex, and if you google that up you should be able to find some of the equipment lists etc.
Also might want to pm that cratchity ol Crossfire here. He's been know to work on a couple of those guns from time to time, and rumor has it he's penned a couple ditties for the SSE magazine on occasion.

[Knarley]

I also own a Pedersoli NRA Qugiley. I LOVE THIS GUN. The fit and finish is superb, the innerds are like a fine swiss watch. It shoots better than it looks! heck it shoots better than I can. I got mine from Cabellas and have NO complaints. Do your self a favore, spend a tad bit more for a really good gun, they are a tool, and one never buys tools off the .39 cent bins unless you're gonna use it once and throw it away. IMHO, My Dad taught me well...:-D
I hope this helps, I know what it's like when you got your sights set on a gun, it sucks, but ease into this TAKE TIME AND THINK!!! You CAN do better,and in the long run,heck, you'll be better off, trust me on that one.
Glad to have been some if any help, hope to hear from you agin no matter what you decide, we will talk again,promise.:drinks:
Knarley

[Blkpwdrbuff]

Willdixon, IAB stands for IT"S ALWAYS BROKE!!!!!
I have had one and it's now for sale. I have has the springs replaced and polished, the locks replaced 3 times and finally hardened. As far as getting parts, it's always a guess.
I emailed IAB several times with no satisfactory results. Finally the red monster in me came out and I emailed Maro Pedretti personally and told him what a piece of junk they are.
That got a reply, but still no help. I also told him word of mouth was the best advertisement available, either good or bad. Still no results!!!
Stay away from them. The Pedersolis are good, but most of the Shilos and C.Sharps are heads above.
Hope this helps,
Blkpwdrbuff:castmine:

[EDG]

Interesting that the junk gun manufacturers don't understand that a junker is usually traded off or resold over and over. Thus a piece of crap rifle goes from owner to owner giving the brand a bad name over and over for decades. All by one crummy rifle.

[waksupi]

Gene, barrels are not heat treated. They are bored, rifled, and turned, from specific steels.

[waksupi]

[quote=willdixon;305570]Hi Bill -

I would not want an Axtell, because their web site says their ". . . big calibers such as 45/110, 120 and 140 are not recommended. They are not very accurate. . . ."

Carmen is telling you this, from years of shooting with the best competitiors in the world. Pay attention to her. She has had experience with all of the calibers. If you are of the type who can't accept advise from a woman who knows what she is talking about, lots of luck to you,

[Matt Muir]

willdixon, I waited a grand total of 3 days for a gun from Shiloh. If I remember right they had a few big 50's complete and in their showroom. I was told the almost always have a few done and ready to ship. At the end of the day I paid about $600 more for this gun than the Ped. I have not seen the gun from Cabelas, but, this Shiloh is perfect in it's fit and finish.

[floodgate]

waksupi:

Many of the top-line barrels ARE stress-relieved at some stage in the process, which is a form of heat-treatment (so is cryogenic treatment, but that would be COLD-treating!)

floodgate

[willdixon]

Thank you Wakasupi and Jerry for your kind input. And yes indeed I do and can and am accepting that Carmen knows whereof she speaks. Like I said, to argue with a MANUFACTURER OF SHARPS RIFLES is like arguing with GOD. And I'm not going to do that. DUMB ME OF ALL PEOPLE! But I HAVE not talked now with a dozen or so owners of 45/110 and 50/90 Sharps, and read reports by another dozen, who tell me theirs are real nail drivers. None has ever told me that caliber is inherently inaccurate. What caliber did the REAL WILL DIXON fire that memorable day - I really do not know. But, in any event, whether it takes a bit more tweaking or not, I've got my heart set on a 45/110 or 50/90.

Waksupe, forgive me, but rifle barrels ARE heat treated, generally streess relieved after machining at 950 - 1000 degrees F for 2 - 4 hours, then air cooled. They are annealed at 1550 F, followed by a furnace cool. Subcrucible attealing is better at 1300 F, providing a 170 BHN. Hardening is generally at 1400 - 1450 F equalize. Better ones are austenitized at 1750 - 1850 F for 30 - 60 minutes, oil or salt quenched to below 125F, for GHN 375/415. And they are tempered for 4 hours at the appropriate temperature, varying with the barrels.

Don, thank you for your great help, but I had two 45/70s back in 1946, and loved them. But now I'd like to move up a tad.

EDG I'm convinced. I'm definitely not going to look at anything less than the Pedersoli from now on. But I did run into an interesting fact today. GUESS WHO OWNS ARMI AND UBERTI AND IAB! DOCTGOR PIERANGELO PEDERSOLI!

Glkpwdrbuff and Gnarly - thank you very, very much for all your kind help, and I AM taking it to heart. I'm going to forget about trying to save $500 or whatever, and I'll go first class or close to it.

ALL OF YOU GUYS - LISTEN TO ME! You have all been very kind and very understanding toward this poor new dummy - me - and I cannot thank you enough for your courtesy and kindness. I've never encountered this kind of HOSPITALITY on any forum before.

Gene

[willdixon]

Thank you Matt - that's encouraging! I thought it was a two year wait! And - unquestionably - the Shilo is worth at least $600 more than the best Pedersoli.

Thank you very much

[waksupi]

Brain fart on my part. Yes, many are treated in some fashion to relieve stress. I know my last Bauska barrel wasn't relieved, and it shoots fine. I'll have to ask about the Lilja barrels, but I'll bet Dan does do it.

[montana_charlie]

But I did run into an interesting fact today. GUESS WHO OWNS ARMI AND UBERTI AND IAB! DOCTGOR PIERANGELO PEDERSOLI!

If that is true, it certainly surprises me because the Pedersoli folks have tried for years to convince one of the Italian Sharps producers to upgrade their rifles.
I have always assumed that was IAB, and there has been a recent change in their products. They look better, but I don't know if they ARE better.

One thing is for certain, Dr. Pierangelo Pedersoli is the President of the board of directors for a consortium of Italian manufacturers called "Consorzio Armaioli Bresciani".

All of the companies you mentioned are part of that consortium, but that doesn't (necessarily) mean that Dr. Pedersoli owns them...
Heck, he doesn't even own the Pedersoli company...his father does.

You can learn more about that here...
http://www.armaiolibresciani.org/

CM

[StrawHat]

What caliber did the REAL WILL DIXON fire that memorable day - I really do not know. Gene

Gene,

I believe I read that Dixon used a 50-90 for that shot.

It was also a borrowed gun as his were not available to him.

I am not knocking that shot, but in his own words it was a "scratch shot" which in context of the day meant lucky.

I do know that with a borrowed gun and at that range, I'd be hard pressed to hit.

[DonH]

William Goodman is a source readily available Shiloh rifles. He is just down the road from the factory and maintains standing orders for rifles from the factory so there is always something in the pipeline. However, the calibers you are loking at are not the most popular so finding one in stock is going to be iffy.

I have a Shiloh (which I bought from Goodman) and shoot with guys who use Pedersolis, C Sharps, etc. As for quailty, Shiloh, C Sharps, Axtell are probably all about equal. I can't say about product support from Axtell and have heard both good and bad about C Sharps in that respect. I have heard nothing bad about Shiloh. When I had an issue with my rifle (made suring the transition to the current owner) it was taken care of promptly and in a way that was above and beyond what would be customary. When it comes to actively supporting the venues where these rifles are used in competition Shiloh and Pedersoli are at the top of the list. IMO, that makes suporting those companies worth a hard look.

Re; Axtell rifles and accuracy (or inaccuracy) with the large cartridges, Axtell is going to use the same barrels for the big .45s as for the .45-70/90 and the same make or quality barrels for the .50s. Their statement is, in my opinion, a less than ideal way of saying that it is going to be far easier to develop accurate loads with the smaler cases than with the really large ones.

[Don McDowell]

. When it comes to actively supporting the venues where these rifles are used in competition Shiloh and Pedersoli are at the top of the list. IMO, that makes suporting those companies worth a hard look.
.

Don ,CSharps donates just as much as those 2, and especially worth special mention CSA always sends prizes specifically for junior shooters. At the Quigley they make sure that EVERY junior shooter gets a good assortment of prizes.
Their making sure the youngsters get enough stuff to keep their interest peaked, off the streets and diverted from the xboxes somewhat, goes a long ways towards keeping our sport viable in the following years.

[willdixon]

Yes, I know what you mean, Straw Hat.

Back when I was a kid I was out in the Glades with my hunting buddy, and we saw a flock of Egrets wading around in a puddle about a half mile ahead of us. And just as a joke, I pointed my .22 up at about 45 degrees and fired. Nothing happened. But, when we got close, the birds all flew away - except one which had been instantly killed by a .22 shot through the neck!

I was sorry I had hit it!

Gene

[willdixon]

Hi DonH

Yes, I agree with you that the lady's ". . . statement is, in my opinion, a less than ideal way of saying that it is going to be far easier to develop accurate loads with the smaler cases than with the really large ones. . . ." And, of course, in the same sentence she discourages ordering the larger calibers because of the recoil. So I'm sure she knows what she's talking about.

Similarly, I would intuit it would be significantly easier to develop accurate loads for shorter ranges than for out at 1,000 yards. To make a small group out there has to take a lot of tweaking. I'm amazed at the 50BMG groups at 1,000 yards - not uncommonly in the 3" to 4" sizes! But that also takes a whole bunch of tweaking!

However, to me personally, scientifically working out accurate loads in the big calibers would be most of the fun. I don't want to just go buy a rifle, pull it out of the box and start shooting. That would be no fun for me at all. I would want to research and learn all I can about the rifle and caliber, then very carefully attempt to make each shot a little more accurate than the last by tweaking the loads, triggers, sights, rests, possibly bedding, bore maybe and all the other variables. I've fired muzzle loaders for many decades, and on target work with them I have even always gone to the trouble of cleaning the bore each shot, to eliminate at least that one variable. This is the fun for me: getting the smallest possible groups way downrange!

Thank you very much. You have been a great help to me.

Gene

[Kenny Wasserburger]

A. Most barrels, are heat treated after drilling-reaming and again after rifling ie double heat treated, to relieve stress induced in those processes. Not all but Most are. Shiloh for one I know is.

B. 45-110's Don't shoot. Yeah right!:roll: I have a bucket full of Gold, Ie first place medals at the National Level, and a few from the regional level, Missoula Mt, that says they shoot pretty good. The current record on the Billy Dixon shoot held in UTAH is 5/6 at 1538 yards, shot with a Shiloh 45-110 by Jim Terry of Rawlins Wyoming.

Check what Shiloh has on hand or Call C. Sharps.

If no Joy order the Pedersoli and shoot away. Time is short dont waste it.:Fire:

Forget the IAB kit its junk the guns are just plain JUNK.

Kenny Wasserburger

[willdixon]

Hi Kenny -

Thanks for very much for your help!

No, I can't imagine of ANY manufactured rifle caliber which is inherently inaccurate, particularly a Sharps. Agreed, many may be more difficult to feed, but the folks who manufacture the rifles aren't dummies, and wouldn't come out with a flawed CALIBER.

Now there ARE many weapons which come from the factory only shooting huge groups, but that isn't the fault of the caliber.

No, at my age and stage I can't afford to waste any time, PLUS I'm really excited about getting a Sharps and seeing how small a group I can work into at long ranges. Frankly, I've always even loved muzzle loaders. My dad gave me my first really cherry muzzle loading squirrel rifle when I was 12, and I've had many since then. Long distance muzzle loading competition is also a great sport which requires a lot of tweaking.

As for those ARMI SHARPS KITS, I checked, and they have been discontinued, but if you had to do all your own heat treating at home, I can see why. The case hardening is a snap - but not the barrel!

Thanks again so very much.

Gene

[waksupi]

I had my curiosity raised, so did make some inquirys. Lilja does heat treat his barrels. I then talked to the head barrel maker from Bauska Rifle Barrels, which is now closed, due to Les' health.
He said they used double stress relieved barrels, and never relieved a barrel after manufacturing. Same holds true for the old Buhmiller barrels, that Les learned the trade from.
I was also told, barrels were very seldom treated until about 20 years ago, when an article came out about it, in some magazine.

Edit; Above should read, double stress relieved steel.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Walsupi,

interesting info, Makes you wonder the way dont it?

I used to wonder about Hammer forged barrels too? but most I have owned or Shot were good ones.

thanks again for the info.

KW

The lunger

[Razor]

Forget the IAB kit its junk the guns are just plain JUNK.
AMEN !!!!
I have an IAB.. got it used..tumbler went to hell the first time I cleaned it after firing 8 rds.:violin:


Razor
:castmine:

[willdixon]

Hi Razor -

The kit Sharps rifles I saw were on the ARMI web site, made by ARMI.

Do you know for sure, are ARMI and IAB the same company?

Thank you very much.

Gene

[willdixon]

Gentlemen -

There has been some confusion about IAB and ARMI Sharps rifles. I had stated that I was looking at the possibility of buying an ARMI, but then several guys said no, I should not buy an IAB - "ALWAYS BROKE".

But I checked with an expert, and he said:

"Sharps made by IAB (Industria Armi Brescia) are also found marked EMF
(Santa Ana, CA importer), SILE, Marcheno, Powder River, and they are now
owned and marked Pedretti & Son.

But they are not to be confused with ArmiSport brand Sharps rifles. The IAB rifles are cheaper, more quickly made. The ArmiSport rifles are more costly, and
superior in accuracy, function, and finish."

Before you jump on me, yes I know the PEDERSOLI is an higher quality firearm than ARMI, but at age 77, I can't justify investing a big bundle for a rifle, and the PEDERSOLI is a whole bunch more than an ARMI Sharps. For example, one highly reputable dealer lists his ARMI QUIGLEY for only $1168, while his equivalent PEDERSOLI goes for $2,045.49 - $877 more. And, of course - at $2711 - the SHILO is more than twice the price of an ARMI.

And today, just for kicks, I started pricing antique Sharps rifles - the real thing, not replicas - but the first one I found was TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS!

So many pretty weapons - so little time and money!

Gene

[montana_charlie]

Having no hands-on experience with either brand, these are the impressions I have concerning those two makers.

IAB (also known by other designations) are safe to shoot, but not much more can be said about them. With knowledgeable effort, they can be made to function pretty reliably, and with some degree of accuracy.

ArmiSport rifles are (generally) of 'decent' quality, and some are very good.
A 'good' one is usually good right out of the box, and the merely 'decent' ones can be tuned up enough to be pretty satisfying.

If buying an ArmiSport, I would prefer to find a well-maintained used rifle that the owner knew to be one of the 'good ones'.
But, that takes some looking...and trust.


CM

[willdixon]

Hi Knarley -

Just for the record, IAB and ARMI SPORT are two entirely different corporations, located in different areas of Italy. Most everybody agrees IAB Sharps are junky, but - after talking to about a dozen ARMI SPORT Sharps owners - most of them are well satisfied with the ARMI SPORT.

Right or wrong, I'm sufficiently convinced in the quality of ARMI SPORT, I'm going to get an ARMI SPORT QUIGLEY, 34" octagonal barrel, and set triggers in 50/90.

I'll let you know...

Cheers,

Gene

[dubber123]

You can count me as a happy Armi Sport owner. It only cost me 600$ in like new condition, and after many rounds, the only issue was the need for a drop of Loctite on the screw for the set trigger. Way more accurate than it should be for 600$.

[willdixon]

Thanks Dubber123 - I'm obviously delighted to hear your input!

Gene

[WBH]

Better buy a "shooters Friend" and a PAST recoil pad........That weight in the 50-90 is going to give a beating with that stock and steel buttplate.

I even use it on my 45-90 Quigley when I am testing a bunch of loads.

[willdixon]

Yes, WBH, I know you are correct. And I thank you for you concern.

But that's also what they told me when I bought the 460 Weatherby Magnum. And indeed I could not fire more than five rounds in any one day - BUT I LOVED IT!

I won't be in any organized competitions; I'll just be long range plinking and cartridge tweaking out here in the woods - a few shots a day. And I can handle it.

Thank you very much.

Gene

[kidmma]

Hi Will,
I have an IAB Sharps rifle too in 45-70. I bought it as a kit from Cape Outfitters. If you like to tinker, this is a good kit for it. It is kind of rough. The action and reciver are "In the white". The internal parts should be heat treated. I finnished the receiver with just bluing.
It shoots great. It does need better sights. I don't use mine enough, and glad I don't have a lot invested. Did I say it shoots?

Scott

[Knarley]

The Quigley Sharps sold through Cabelas is A Pedersoli. Davide Pedersoli not that Dr. guy. I have NO experience with Armi Sport. I truley hope you and yer new "baby" will get along fine. Oh recoil pad...good Idea
Knarley:castmine:wheel weights

[zampilot]

Thanks guys for this thread. Bought one (IAB) on a lark to learn BPCR, before firing a C.Sharps I lucked into.
Time to get the MAPP torch out and heat treat some internal parts while I wait for info on replacements for my IAB SHarps! It does shoot well, but when the half-cock goes to hell........:(

[zampilot]

Hmmmm....with a drop in sales they must have decided to listen a bit, a little bit anyway. Now if they'd improve their heat treatment/hardening of the internals instead of leaving it to us. Their wordage has changed lately, no more saftey thingy!
http://www.iabarms.com/sharps_model_1874.htm

[montana_charlie]

Their wordage has changed lately,
Yeah. It says their Sporting model comes with a Bridgeport collar.
I wonder how that compares with a Hartford collar...hmmm.
CM

[Boz330]

Yeah. It says their Sporting model comes with a Bridgeport collar.
I wonder how that compares with a Hartford collar...hmmm.
CM

They are both in the same state.[smilie=1:

Bob

[kevinsmith5]

Anyone know anywhere to actually get one of these?

[EDK]

Don't waste your time! "With the economy in the toilet, there are a lot of guns at fire sale prices." The guys with plenty of money aren't hurting, but a lot of guys who were saving for a SHARPS are paying for gas and groceries rather than an expensive rifle.

SHILOH has some guns in the sales rack at any given time; C. SHARPS has them available also. IDAHO SHARPSHOOTER got a hell of a deal on an AXTELL at the Quigley shoot from Miss Carmen. BILL GOODMAN has guns. Check out the black powder rifle web sites and internet auctions.

There's plenty of guns of all types for sale...and bargain prices on them to boot! Trading isn't a good option, but "yankee dollars" will get you a deal.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[kevinsmith5]

I'm a do-it-yourself kinda guy. Almost none of my guns have avoided major overhauls by me. even if its just totally refinishing the stocks. I was looking at that kit because I can't find a Sharps that needs work.

[zampilot]

"I can't find a Sharps that needs work."
We are similar minded so buy an IAB SHarps and you'll most likely have something to do! I'd sell mine but I've done all the work!

[oldpucker]

I too Have a IAB C. sharps in 45-70 made in Italy. I need to lighten up the trigger pull and can't find anything to show me how. I'm also looking for an owners manual for my sharps.

[john.k]

Well,a bit has happened since 2008 ,last response on this item......for one ,IAB has gone broke......as in defunct......I know of only one way of improving the trigger pull ......fit a double set trigger.................as the IAB was a pretty good copy of the original,and there are about a gazillion words written on Sharps rifles,no problem there..........There was only one real issue with the IABs , sometimes the lock parts wernt properly hardened.......this is easily rectified........for the $2000 difference in price...........that and the toothless yokels who wander round sayin "IAB-its alluz broke ----yuk yuk yuk......IAB its alluz broke yuk-yuk-yuk."

[rfd]

as with most things in life, you get what you pay for. usually. maybe.

considering that a shiloh or c.sharps rifle will be at least $2k and a 3 to 14 months wait, a pedersoli $1200 '74 #1 sharps silhouette (DGW current price) might be the better value, and with quality of components and build. at least they're the best of these kinda offshore guns.

[7mmmag]

I just got a rolling block done its a 50-90 shooting 650 gr bullets . The recoil is not bad at ALL but it does weigh 16 lbs . I got mine shooting good with help from the members here !!

[Boz330]

as with most things in life, you get what you pay for. usually. maybe.

considering that a shiloh or c.sharps rifle will be at least $2k and a 3 to 14 months wait, a pedersoli $1200 '74 #1 sharps silhouette (DGW current price) might be the better value, and with quality of components and build. at least they're the best of these kinda offshore guns.

When the IABs came into this country they were $800 and that has been a while back, which makes the Pedersolis a bargain at $1200. Cabela's had their hunter model on sale which has the pistol grip and shotgun butt plate but a 30" barrel for $1100 a couple years back and I bought one. To make it a better deal yet there was a 15% discount because I was a vet. Because it was the hunter model it was a flat finish barrel and stock and the stock was as plain as a mud fence but it shoots. I have used it all the way out to 1200yd and don't feel under gunned in the least.

The IABs that I saw and, I owned one for a short period of time, had a lot more wrong with them than just soft lock parts. Fired cases out of one of them looked like a pregnant Guppy, not sure they would even start in a full length size die. They also had Black Powder only stamped on the barrel. In the manual IIRC it didn't recommend even using smokeless.

Bob

[country gent]

I got my Pedersolis Long range 74 sharps at cabelas ( I've been told it was made for cabellas) For $1000.00 during a sale. Again pistol grip shoot gun butt stock. case hardened receiver and polished blued half round 34" barrel. Tang rear ladder and front globe no barrel sight. Wood is nicely grained walnut. I replaced the sights from the bargain cave a few years ago with the soule rear long range and a windage adjustable with level globe front. Fit and finish is good between metal and wood.

I've seen and handles IABS, Taylors, and Armis weren't near the fit and finish and problems were being reported from many. Ive never owned on so cant speak on them first hand.

Unfortunately with Pedersolis prices manufacturers import fees and such they arnt far of a base line C Sharps or CPA. Not sure about Shiloh Sharps. A longer wait with them but you also get just what you want.

[EDG]

I have handled several Italian made (non Pedersoli) Sharps replicas at gun shows and was appalled by the crude fit and finish of the parts. At the time I owned a Browning BPCR and I was interested in owning a Sharps clone. Most of the non Pedersoli Italians appeared to have parts that were machined and left as is with no attention paid to the removal of many ragged tool marks. Nothing appeared to be heat treated and the bores appeared to have ripples or waves from tight spots. The bores often appeared to have been rifled with a process that stopped and started leaving the uneven spots in the bores.
By contrast both Browning and Pedersoli barrels appear to be flawless with a highly uniform bright machined finish from end to end. Shooting both Brownings and Pedersolis result in high levels of accuracy and no leading with decent lubricants on the bullets.
Most of the crude Italians were priced about $800 7 or 8 years ago. I eventually bought several used but like new Pedersoli rifles in the $1000 to $1200 price range back then.
The price differential over the cost of a new off brand Italian was well worth the improved quality of the Pedersolis.

[indian joe]

I have handled several Italian made (non Pedersoli) Sharps replicas at gun shows and was appalled by the crude fit and finish of the parts. At the time I owned a Browning BPCR and I was interested in owning a Sharps clone. Most of the non Pedersoli Italians appeared to have parts that were machined and left as is with no attention paid to the removal of many ragged tool marks. Nothing appeared to be heat treated and the bores appeared to have ripples or waves from tight spots. The bores often appeared to have been rifled with a process that stopped and started leaving the uneven spots in the bores.
By contrast both Browning and Pedersoli barrels appear to be flawless with a highly uniform bright machined finish from end to end. Shooting both Brownings and Pedersolis result in high levels of accuracy and no leading with decent lubricants on the bullets.
Most of the crude Italians were priced about $800 7 or 8 years ago. I eventually bought several used but like new Pedersoli rifles in the $1000 to $1200 price range back then.
The price differential over the cost of a new off brand Italian was well worth the improved quality of the Pedersolis.

I must have got the demonstration one - have a IAB sharps - early manufacture - purtiest case colours, beautiful crisp single trigger, accurate barrel, nicely cut chamber, everything works as its sposed to - bought second hand so it might have been worked over by someone that knew better than the maker ?

[john.k]

There is a long complicated story behind IAB,but in the early sixties they were custom makers of competition shotguns......world championship winning shotguns used by the top liners ,especially in live bird,which was and still is very big in Italy ,France and Spain.....anyhoo,a bunch of Yank auctioneers approached the company to make a 1863 carbine replica......which they did ,and it was a very high quality gun,cheap and sold well...At this time Shiloh was the only other maker ,at 4x the price......and the early Shiloh ones wernt crash hot,barrels especially were claimed substandard.......However ,the sales meant new capital was needed and US venture capital was brought in,which was when the quality took a nosedive,cause the investors wanted 100% annual returns ,and introduced subcontracting at minimum lira...These were the 45/70 guns,but even with problems sold well ,until the problems dragged them down,and they eventually went bust about 2010?

[Boz330]

I must have got the demonstration one - have a IAB sharps - early manufacture - purtiest case colours, beautiful crisp single trigger, accurate barrel, nicely cut chamber, everything works as its sposed to - bought second hand so it might have been worked over by someone that knew better than the maker ?

There was a local gunshop that was the importer for the IABs. They had so many returns that they dropped the line. Many of these returns were bought up by another shop near me and 3 of us bought 74s for $265 each. We picked the best we could find.
My best friend who was an amateur machinist and top notch gun builder went through the locks and reworked them to where they worked beautifully. The one he got had an oversize chamber but the barrel was really nice. He got it shooting pretty well but eventually rebarreled it in 38-50 Rem for his daughter to shoot. The actions were smaller and with the lighter recoil it made a nice starter BPCR for a small girl.


Bob

[rfd]

for me, pedersoli is the bpcr gun to get because of the inherent quality, the immediate availability, and the price tag. right now and as it's been for at least 3 or 4 years, DGW is the place for new pedersoli bpcr guns for "cheap", starting at $1100 for a straight grip '74 "target" sharps .45-70 with OTR barrel, and $1200 for a pistol grip '74 "silhouette" sharps .40-65 with heavy octagon barrel. the later is my choice, i have two, with one converted to .45-70 PPB. these guns *maybe* go on sale once a year for a $100-$200 savings. for me, i wouldn't look at any other offshore guns. if there was no pedersoli bpcr offerings i'd be knocking on c.sharps door.