Powder! Really!

[TXGunNut]

Made my usual weekend trip to Cabelas today and something stopped me dead in my tracks. Powder. Lots of it. Other than a pound of IMR 4227 and possibly the WSH all of it was rifle powder. David (Cabelas reloading guy) said they got over a hundred pounds in a few days back and there were over a dozen varieties on the shelf, they even had to add a shelf. There were at least four varieties each of Norma and Accurate, pretty much unheard of in this store. WW powders included not only 748 but 760 and Super Handicap. Approx six each of some popular Hodgdon and IMR, even a few eight pound jugs. First time in a long while they've had more powder on the shelf than I did, if only by a little bit. ;-)
On top of that I had the pleasure of visiting with a couple of gents who had some of the same tastes in cartridges but totally different experiences with powders; seems they were familiar with many of the powders I knew little about and vice versa. We even talked a bit about the new Enduron and CFE powders. Neither of them were even remotely interested in CB's but other than that they were good guys, lol.
We even saw and talked about S&B primers. Can't recall ever seeing them or even reading about them, even David hadn't seen them before.
Oh, yeah. I scored a couple of pounds of Accurate 4350. My good friend (and enabler) from Mississippi, 35 shooter, has been telling me about this powder so I thought it best to try it for myself. My 30-06's (j-word guns) seem to prefer H4350, my 35 Whelen seems to like IMR 4350 and I figured it was time to try the "other" 4350. The differences are admittedly slight but they are noticeable and make this reloading game more fun. I also scored a hundred pieces of WW 30-30 brass. I started loading that cartridge as a lark a few years ago and I've decided to take it seriously and lay in a supply of brass. My brother has been sending his once-fired WW 30-30 brass up to me and I have 45 pieces in the sonic cleaner after a pleasant sizing and trimming session in my loading room. They'll soon be headed south as loaded ammo, just haven't decided how to load them.

[9.3X62AL]

Well, this a good read. Did somebody open a gate, or what? :-)

The old 30-30 WCF is among the lead-friendliest rifle calibers in existence. There is MUCH about it to enjoy. I've used it to take several deer, and EVERY deer I've taken in my life could have been humanely dispatched with the caliber. I should keep such statements on the down-low, given the safe full of greater and lesser calibers in an array of action types and makes.

[TXGunNut]

For many years I didn't feel the thutty-thutty was worth my time to reload. RP Core-Lokt ammo (good stuff!) could be had for $6-8/20 and they shot plenty good in my little Trapper. Actually still have a few boxes of factory ammo but I prefer my handloads now. My Trapper will likely remain a J-word rifle or a safe queen but my Marlin 336 was purchased as a CB project and has been a lot of fun. It was tempting to buy a pound of CFE 223 for this project but I have plenty of LVR, Rx7, 3031 and other powders to push boolits with.
I've been reading similar reports from other parts of the country, feels good to see it firsthand.

[edler7]

Saw a vendor at a gun show this weekend that had 1 lb Unique, Power Pistol, Bullseye, Varget, several different IMR powders and other rifle powders. He also had 8 lb jugs of Green Dot. He said he had gotten $7000 worth of powder from his distributor last week. That was the most powder I had seen at a gun show in several years. All of it was running about 23-24 a pound and he was selling quite a bit of it. One guy bought 2 8 pound jugs of Green Dot while I was standing there.

Maybe things are easing up out there.

[texaswoodworker]

My local powder place had quite a few different powders in stock. Mostly rifle powders, but a few handgun powders too. I scored some 2400 there.

[FISH4BUGS]

I stopped in at Shooter's Outpost on Rte 3 in Hooksett NH and their reloading section had virtually everything! I asked about 8lb jugs of 748 (in stock) and 231 (in stock). The only 8 lb'ers they did NOT have was 296. Had 1lb cans though. MANY Lee moulds and casting accessories. MANY reloading presses.
That is a GREAT gun store. Lots of inventory and accessories. Highly recommended.
Free plug there, Jim.

[Petrol & Powder]

Yep, powder is showing up again. Despite all the doom and gloom if you leave the market alone it will always fix itself.

[9.3X62AL]

Yep, powder is showing up again. Despite all the doom and gloom if you leave the market alone it will always fix itself.

Yessir, the manufacturers sure as h--l left it alone for a good long while.

Here's hoping that all those hobbyists who have run short on their favored fuels start "getting well" on this apparent resurgence of stock.

[Treetop]

TxGunNut, did they have any Alliant 2400 on hand? I haven't seen as much as one single pound of 2400 since Sandy Hook, down here in SE Texas.

Been looking almost daily on Gunbot and I've had good luck there on all my usual powders EXCEPT 2400. I've tried substituting with appropriate charges of AA 5744, H-110 and IMR 4227 but with only limited success.

I'm down to < 1/2 lb. now and I'm holding on to that for my .44 mag hunting loads. I used most of my 2400 in my AKs with the Lee 155 gr. but not any more... Tt.

[35 shooter]

Glad you found some aa4350 to try...i'll be watching for the report on it! My brother in Co. is using it to fuel his H&R 35 whelen. The aa powders are supposed to be very consistent from lot to lot from everything i've heard.
Lol i think it probably pays to have all three 4350 powders on hand just for the preferances of individual rfles.
I haven't seen the aa4350 in stock around here in a while, but i'm keeping my eye out for it.

Good to hear the powder situation may be finally getting better!!

[Handloader109]

Local cabelas last w/e had about a half dozen bottles. Stopped by today andthat same endcap was entirely full of powder. Probably over 20 different rifle powders. One bottle of wsf was on the shelf at $25, not too bad, but zero pistol primers of any source

[retread]

We even saw and talked about S&B primers. Can't recall ever seeing them or even reading about them, even David hadn't seen them before.


I have been told, but not confirmed that S&B primers run a little bit larger than other brands (in diameter) and seating requires a bit more force but the problem seems to be going back to the other brans after using S&B's. The claim was they slightly enlarge the primer pocket and other primers can be loose as a result. I have no personal knowledge about his clam but am hesitant to order any until I can find out for sure. Grafs had a good sale on them recently but I declined to order until I can get some definitive answers on the question. Anyone using them encountered any problems?

[ffries61]

been using S&B for about 6 months now, large and small both, no troubles at all, seat just as smooth as CCI and better than Winchesters, IMHO. They're not plated, but the brass is polished pretty smooth, feed thru my Dillon 550 and vibra prime like butter, they're my preferred primer now.

[RogerDat]

I finally hit the right time on gunbot and did get some 2400 but have had a couple pounds and some unique on back order at Lohman's since July. Order was for 2# of Unique & 2# of 2400 and some primers to help soften the hazmat fee.

I hit gunbot every chance I get, at least a few times a day, and a few at night and I have been watching for at least as long as I have had that back order at Lohman's just this week hit at the right time to get some 2400.

There was some other useful powders at the recent gun show over by Lansing don't recall exactly what. Did get some 4198 and they did expect an order in middle of last week that was going to have some pistol powders in it.

[TXGunNut]

Glad you scored some 2400, RogerDat. I have a couple pounds on the shelf but can't recall the last time I saw it in a store. My local Cabelas has about 100 #'s or H110 coming in this week, among other powders.

[TXGunNut]

I think the powder situation is getting better, 35 shooter. Yes I must admit smokeless powder technology fascinates me. After studying on that awhile I'm amazed that BP works as well as it does. I guess I'm easily amused.
Turns out that was some very expensive powder, had to go back today to pick up another levergun that was begging me for a ride home. ;-)

[retread]

been using S&B for about 6 months now, large and small both, no troubles at all, seat just as smooth as CCI and better than Winchesters, IMHO. They're not plated, but the brass is polished pretty smooth, feed thru my Dillon 550 and vibra prime like butter, they're my preferred primer now.

Thanks for the feedback. I think I will give them a try.

[35 shooter]

I think the powder situation is getting better, 35 shooter. Yes I must admit smokeless powder technology fascinates me. After studying on that awhile I'm amazed that BP works as well as it does. I guess I'm easily amused.
Turns out that was some very expensive powder, had to go back today to pick up another levergun that was begging me for a ride home. ;-)

Yea, ya gotta watch those powder buying trips lol!
On the other hand i've heard that lever guns, just like 30/06's, are never a mistake.:grin:

[Three44s]

..........................................
Turns out that was some very expensive powder, had to go back today to pick up another levergun that was begging me for a ride home. ;-)

I thought I was reading about me there!

I went into a Cabelas a while back looking at powder ...... found a Marlin waffle top .35 Rem.

Had to go back a few days later ...... had my heart set on it ......... it looked to be gone!

Found a Savage 99 in 300 ...........

Finally found the Marlin .......... brought it home ........

The Savage was sending signals ......

Went back and got the Savage a few days later .......

(I had been pining for both of those for quite a spell ......... ).

Best regards

Three 44s

[runfiverun]

Treetop:
take a look at AA-4100 or Enforcer.

[fatelk]

Yessir, the manufacturers sure as h--l left it alone for a good long while.

Here's hoping that all those hobbyists who have run short on their favored fuels start "getting well" on this apparent resurgence of stock.

I remember your rants some time back about the manufacturers not keeping up with demand (I think that was you; if not I apologize). I've been really starting to agree with you lately. It's really good to hear it starting to come back. Hopefully this is supply actually catching up to demand.

How many years can this go on? I really thought it was a bubble that would have popped at least a year ago. It still seems crazy to me that the shelves have been bare of powder and .22lr for this many years. Who would have thought it?

Yes, I know I can get powder and .22lr if I watch all the on-line places daily and whip out my credit card on a moments notice to spend hundreds of dollars plus shipping and haz-mat. I'm not going to do that. I just want to be able to walk into my local Bi-mart, pick a can of whatever I want off the shelf and buy it, like I used-to-could. :) This silly shortage won't be over until the average guy can do that, in my humble opinion.

[9.3X62AL]

Fatelk--that was me doing the complaining about component shortages, all right. As for What It All Means......I dunno. If I had to guess, my supposition would be some combination of COMPLETE MISJUDGEMENT of market size and demand by component makers--stubborn unwillingness to expand to meet that new reality--and a clear tendency to treat end users/retail buyers with the same disdain and arrogance the makers formerly reserved for wholesalers and retail sellers.

Net effect for me has been a re-set of priorities, concentration upon hunting activities and an almost complete abandonment of range research. I'm using about 20% as much powder and lead as I did in pre-2008 times, but I'm afield hunting a whole lot more and on the water fishing as often as I hunt. Learning to adapt in order to live well is the best response to BS like that of the arms hobby industries. The sales of ~20 or my firearms mean that there are 20 sales not made of new guns by a maker. The deletion of 6 calibers from my inventory mean the sale of tools and components in the used market that won't be realized by The Makers. The focus-change to hunting from range work equals a far more efficient use of far less "consumables", another net gain for me and potential loss for these greed-head Makers. I realize that I am just one guy, one little voice in the wilderness here......but I can't help thinking that there are hundreds--perhaps thousands of guys and gals like me out there who have changed their game in order to adapt to this new reality. In truth, I'm outside a whole lot more--my hunting and angling success has improved by several orders of magnitude--and I'm having a lot more fun afield than I ever did as a range rat. So, a BIG THANK YOU is in order to the fat, lazy, decadent, uninspired cabal of component makers whose market machinations got me back on track with what I enjoy doing most--harvesting the land, the skies, and the waters.

[TXGunNut]

I thought I was reading about me there!

I went into a Cabelas a while back looking at powder ...... found a Marlin waffle top .35 Rem.

Had to go back a few days later ...... had my heart set on it ......... it looked to be gone!

Found a Savage 99 in 300 ...........

Finally found the Marlin .......... brought it home ........

The Savage was sending signals ......

Went back and got the Savage a few days later .......

(I had been pining for both of those for quite a spell ......... ).

Best regards

Three 44s


Wow, sounds like you were quite lucky. I figure if I set it down and walk away I have about a 50% chance of it being there when I come back. Not only was it there but you came across a really desireable rifle while you were looking for it and got away with walking away from it as well. Congrats on both rifles.

[TXGunNut]

......but I can't help thinking that there are hundreds--perhaps thousands of guys and gals like me out there who have changed their game in order to adapt to this new reality. -9.3X62AL

When I quit shooting a high volume of ammo as a pistol competitor it was a huge change for me. I shoot maybe 50 rounds of rifle ammo 2-3 weekends a month but I'm exploring lots of fascinating rifles. Funny thing, I quit shooting PPC because I didn't want to buy a few semi-auto match guns.
I don't use anywhere near as many primers or as much powder as I did back then but the number of dies has multiplied and I've discovered I like casting boolits.

[hanleyfan]

I have not bought any powder since this craziness started, good thing I had bought a lot of powder before that. I don't plan buying anymore powder until it all calms down and stores start running sales again on powder. As long as guys buy up everything that shows up its never going to end, come on I was told 50lbs was the max you could own without coming under regulations for powder storage, and I know there guys way over that still buying.

[texassako]

I stopped in the same Cabela's and there was both 296 and H110 siting right there on the shelf. Grabbed a can of 296 since I never got to try either in the .357 before this shortage mess. The funny thing was the primer shelf is just about back to being bare. They even had a few brands of .22 match ammo in stock, and the 19.99 price tag for a 50 ct of the Eley just about made me laugh. I also got to fondle a couple of Remington 8 and 81's, but they wanted way to much for one in .300 Savage(last I need for every caliber).

[dragon813gt]

All I need is W231/HP-38. Two jugs and I will be set for a long time. I guess another two of W296/H110 wouldn't hurt either. Three 327 Federal revolvers have been putting a big dent in the supply. Maybe I should try Leverolution since I have a bunch of levers. Should probably buy a few jugs of Tac while I'm at it. I should just stop now ;)

Supply is still poor here. Shops have raised their prices for no reason. There is no price break for buying 8# jugs so there is no point in even buying them. Hopefully in a few more months PV has what I want in stock so I can place one order and not have to worry for a decade or so.

[fatelk]

Hopefully in a few more months PV has what I want in stock so I can place one order and not have to worry for a decade or so.
Not blaming you at all, and I'd like to do the same thing, but I think this might be exactly why it may still take a very long time for supply to actually catch up.

A) True long term demand is up due to more people shooting.
B) Lots of people are stocking up because they're worried about future availability, grabbing whatever they can whenever they find it.
C) There are still millions of us biding our time, waiting for availability and prices to normalize to a degree, at which time we'll start buying.

Yeah, I guess it could be a while. Crazy

[Treetop]

Treetop:
take a look at AA-4100 or Enforcer.

OK, r5r, I will. Presently, I'm not familiar with either of them. Thanks for the tip! Tt.

[Handloader109]

If normal means at any point you can walk back into a store and buy the exact powder you want, I don't think normal will be in our lifetime. I don't think I'm hoarding, but I have bought a few years supply. At this point, I am buying only a specific need.

[dragon813gt]

Not blaming you at all, and I'd like to do the same thing, but I think this might be exactly why it may still take a very long time for supply to actually catch up.

In my case that's how I've always bought. I'm not talking about hundreds of pounds of powder. Two jugs of W231 would last a very long time. It makes no financial sense to buy a pound or two online. I know on the surface it looks like I'm part of the problem. But in reality my purchasing habits haven't changed. I buy in bulk when I have the money because I never know if I will have money in the future.

[TXGunNut]

I stopped in the same Cabela's and there was both 296 and H110 siting right there on the shelf. Grabbed a can of 296 since I never got to try either in the .357 before this shortage mess. The funny thing was the primer shelf is just about back to being bare. They even had a few brands of .22 match ammo in stock, and the 19.99 price tag for a 50 ct of the Eley just about made me laugh. I also got to fondle a couple of Remington 8 and 81's, but they wanted way to much for one in .300 Savage(last I need for every caliber).

I saw the 81, think it was 32 Remington. David said they had H110 coming, thought I posted that earlier. Suspected 296 was coming too. I could use a pound or two of either, maybe they'll have some left for me this weekend.

[RogerDat]

While I agree more people got into reloading if I was in the component manufacturing business I would be skeptical about how much the reloading market increase will be long term. Building a plant to meet a short term spike in demand, and while a couple of years of shortage may seem like a long time but in terms of the life time of the investment expanding capacity represents a couple of year spike is nothing. Sinking all that capital into production capacity for a couple of years of production spike would be foolish.

Lot of folks that started out to reload may well drop out. And as was already pointed out by others there is a point where buying any more supplies makes no sense. Meanwhile anyone who has had to wait and do without is probably going to buy a lot more than normal when they do find what they need. Reloading tends to discourage stupid people and anyone that is not dumb is probably buying 2 when they need 1 "just in case" especially if one is paying a hazmat shipping fee.

[fatelk]

I know on the surface it looks like I'm part of the problem. But in reality my purchasing habits haven't changed.
I didn't mean it in a bad way really. If/when I happen across a jug or two of 231 or the like, I'll probably buy them. That would be a change from my normal buying habit, so guys like me are probably a bigger part of the problem than you are. :)

[Harter66]

Roger
I suspect that probably over half of the last 5 yr and more of the last 10 yr new loaders will stay . At least as long as it costs more to load a magazine than it cost to buy it. The 1st box of 45 Colts I bought was just a little more than the 357 soft points a few rows over now they're still over $30 /50 . We load them for $8/ 100 and as little as 5/100 for 9s . Unless it is desperation to meet some regulation you won't see me dropping a buck a round on 06' or 308.

I'm pleased to see a mix of primers back on shelves . Out here I didn't see a small pistol primer for almost 4 yr. Then the trickle of LRP and LPP dried up and there was nothing but small pistol primers on the shelf so I shot small mags in a new to me 222 for over a yr . I doubt that we will ever see the normal "shelf life" end of a season sales where you can't load it for the sale price again.

[9.3X62AL]

Roger Dat--

You kind of obliquely made my point with your commentary above. I don't think The Makers have done very much--if anything--to increase production. They have "x" amount of raw materials inventory space, that material is received in a "just in time" inventory plan, that plan is tied to production capacity minus downtime for maintenance and repair, and finished product yield is keyed to years-long sales records, and "y" amount of finished product warehousing space. It is finite--limited--and contains many disincentives to increasing output. If a company is selling every widget it can make--the demand for widgets remains high--then The Makers are in the catbird seat, and control the market comprehensively.

What is needed is for a foreign maker to crash The Makers' party. Now would be an opportune moment for some enterprising offshore component maker to JACK THINGS UP BUT GOOD for the stateside Makers, just like Toyota and Nissan did to Detroit in the 1970s and into the 1990s. Corpulent, lazy, uninspired, arrogant firms treating their customer base like chumps......this whole mess reminds me of the plastic carbueretors on Mopar police cars of the mid-1970s.

[1johnlb]

Ok, I confess, the shortage is all my fault.:bigsmyl2:

[TXGunNut]

I understand the reluctance of component mfrs to make investments in capital improvements to service what most folks (including me!) thought would be just another brief uptick. I don't know why this period of increased demand has grown legs and taken on a life of it's own. Even though I initially thought we would have been back to normal over a year ago. Now I'm not sure the end is in sight.
And yes, I'm part of the problem. My shooting buddy was at Cabelas today trading for a rifle and he confirmed that they had 296 on the shelf. It's the powder I use for my 45 Colt hunting loads so he was nice enough to pick up a couple of pounds for me. I use very few hunting loads, two pounds will last me for several years but I have less than half a pound on the shelf.

[RogerDat]

Reloading makes financial sense especially when paired with casting with the price of factory ammo being what it is. No argument there. Well it makes financial sense if one can keep from spending purchase price of 10,000 rounds on finding just the perfect mold/die/powder for that caliber.

There are always people that start out with something and fail to stick with it through the learning curve and inevitable setbacks. A whole lot of people were panic buying reloading stuff after Sandy Hook. While it may make financial sense for them to stick with it I guess I figure a lot of them will not.

I do think the pool of long term and future reloading market has grown. If nothing else I think a lot of folks that used to reload but stopped have gotten back into it. Along with those that have taken it up more recently and will stick with it. And if one family member reloads it increases the chance that someone else in the family will take it up since they have a mentor.

[runfiverun]

odd how the shelves are bought bare of ammunition and then reloading powder dries up next ain't it.
you know it takes a metric butt ton of powder to load 2 billion rounds of 40 S&W.

I flat seen this coming waaay back when.

[1johnlb]

Dang Run, sure wished you would have warned me, so I could have stocked up on 2400. :kidding:

I once thought that 2400 was the only powder made, and only had 1 or 2 8 pounders at the bench, now I've got a whole wall lined up with them.

[runfiverun]

well I laid it out in several threads here.
when everyone was predicting things only going into 2012 I was calling for beyond 2016.
there are/were just too many things going on in the industry and with shooters themselves for this to not be long term.

now we have an election coming up.
hitlary seems to be the only candidate the Dem's are even gonna trot out of the gate.
the repub's have some pretty conservative candidates on the bill but they will back bite and
in-fight until the tea party comes along and mucks things up even worse.
our dear leader come in third place in this state yet there he is in the white house.

if the one that's 'owed her shot' gets in, this will become so much worse we will look back on this amount of availability with fondness.


we probably need to do some math and see what we have and what we REALLY need and not just be grabbing everything hodgepodge when we see it.
this is also a great time to expand our vision of how things really work in a cartridge and adapt to our local availability.
a lot of these new powders are pretty much the old standards just run out with different base stocks and new designations.
a shot shell powder is a handgun powder and vice-versa no matter what it says on the bottle.
alliant/hodgdon/imr/and accurate all make powders with the same burn rate from top to bottom so aa-2495, both of the 4895's and rl-15 will all give the same results with super similar charges. [I'd bet norma and others have one the same burn speed too]
but it doesn't make sense to have 3 pounds of one and 2 pounds of another.

[guicksylver]

Hey Guys Thanks the opportunity to cry a little here.
Boy things have changed for sure !
I really can't fault the component manufactures as much as US shooters.
I am 67, as a kid I remember getting my hands on a 50 rnd box of 22's.
We would spend the week ends walking the shores here on Cape Cod plinking at whatever would move or not move.
Oddly enough we would end the weekend with ammo left in the box.

What is different now is, I see young folks show up at the range (3-4 at a time) and blow through a brick apiece.
Why, semi- autos (10-22's) mostly.
What really discourages me is that they aren't learning a thing, trigger control, sight picture, breathing etc.
Just "spray and pray".
Also what occurred to me is that when I started shooting very few of us were married, now we all have kids and grandchildren,
most of who are shooting. (Four times as many of us).
PLUS gun ownership is on the rise. ( More of us)
AR15's (semi autos ), 30 rnd mags, at least 4 per range visit.
Hand guns (semi autos) one box won't do.

I shot all the disciplines, IDPA, PPC, IPSC, Bullseye , Trap and Skeet, Cowboy.

Add all the Para Military groups who have popped up and you get and I idea where all the ammo and
components are going.


I basically blame the semi autos. More later Dan

Add on all the Para Military group that have poped up