Midrange 454 Revisited

[High Desert Hunter]

After shooting today, and updating my load notes, I believe the powder I will be using for midrange 454 is HS6, it just really shines in this capacity. I have used 13.5 grains under a 325gr FNGC bullet from my Mountain Molds blocks, and it gives me less than 3" at 50 yards from a rest and open sights, works really well with the 340gr WFNGC bullet from my LBT blocks, the only place that Unique has beaten it is with the 289gr SAA bullet. I have found that 2400 works better for the region just below where H110 starts, not really midrange, not really full power. Absolutely shredded a 12" stump at 126 yards today. I do love the 454 Casull!

[44man]

HS-6 has worked in the .475 too, good powder. My problem is I only have a pinch left.

[High Desert Hunter]

I was fortunate to check Powder Valley's website week before last, I have an 8# jug on the way, even with shipping and hazmat fees, still less expensive than my local shop. HS6 works in my 45/70 too, but I prefer Unique in it.

[Ruger45Bisley]

Mid range 454's make a lot of sense, I like them because they're still very potent but not punishing. I haven't tried HS6 but I've got a lot of Longshot and it does well with mid-range loads too.

[High Desert Hunter]

Have never tried Longshot, so that is good information right there. The big LBT style bullets carry a lot of authority downrange, even when they only start out at 12-1400fps.

[45r]

Been shooting the rcbs 250RNPB over 11 grains trail boss.
accurate and no recoil from my M-83.

[44man]

Actually, the .454 is not a good deer gun with hard boolits. To lower the velocity is much better. 1200 to 1300 fps will flatten deer with a WLN or WFN but any more or less means boolit alloy work.
The max velocities are better for HUGE animals.

[happie2shoot]

44man, your .454 may not be a good deer killer with hard fast boolits but mine is
great with them.

[44man]

44man, your .454 may not be a good deer killer with hard fast boolits but mine is
great with them.
I have the 45-70 BFR and have lost too many deer with hard boolits too fast. Those I found could go 200 yards. No blood trails. The .454 is the same. Too fast with a pressure wave from the flat nose moving tissue out of the way in a secondary wound channel. Found deer with pink lungs with double lung shots. Just a hole. Same with the .500 JRH until I made half the nose soft. Now most drop at the shot.
I shoot too many deer to agree with you. I must have over 570 deer kills and still get 5 to 7 a season. I know what each and every gun and boolit does. I know what every broad head does and arrow weight from a bow.
Now you did not tell the velocity either. 1300 or so works so don't tell me 1800 fps with the same boolit. I will bet you use a Unique load from the .454. If over that, how many deer? Two gets you no medal. The total deer kill from everyone on any site does not come near mine. I do a necropsy on every deer and butcher every single one. I am sick of it to tell the truth. But I learn.

[tygar]

I must have over 570 deer kills and still get 5 to 7 a season. .

Way, way to much work!

[NoAngel]

I dont know what year you started hunting but that'd be the same as killing 15 deer every year I've been on earth.

Hmm.

[44 Special]

...I must have over 570 deer kills and still get 5 to 7 a season...

Well, this is the internet.

[leftiye]

Don't insult folks you don't know yungun'.

[44man]

I did a lot of orchard control in Ohio with unlimited tags. Fed a lot of the poor. I used everything legal back then, Bows, ML's, crossbow and shotguns. Had farms in PA with unlimited kill tags from crop damage. I never agreed with how farmers did it, gut shoot them so they ran out of fields to die and rot in the woods. There is a pig farm near me now where the farmer might stack 200 deer in a ditch to rot.
I give away about 3 to 5 a year now, keep two for myself. Had to cut back last season, only allowed 3 doe now. Good thing is the ladies that own the property I hunt most come to help butcher and wrap and so does anyone else. They buy paper and tape.
The year I left Ohio was the first year handguns were legal but I could use them here so almost every gun deer in the last 28 years has been with a revolver. A few with a .280 and a few with the Swede. Sold the .280! Way too much meat damage.
Anyway I seen what a revolver does and what each boolit does. Also what each velocity does.
I had setbacks with WLN going too fast so made WFN molds and seen the same poor results. Seen HP's and XTP's fail. I found a big meplat can fail so a softer nose worked best because I still want hard drive bands for accuracy.
Hard from a .45 Colt works OK, deer usually walk off and stand until they bleed out, The .44 has them run but 30 yards is about it. The .475 will drop almost every deer right there. The 45-70 had deer go 200 yards or more with no blood trails for 100 yards and the .500 JRH had them go 100 to 120 yards with no blood trails. Soften the whole boolit in the BFR 45-70 to 50-50 and use a HP, just destroys a deer. Making just half the JRH nose soft was the answer, of the 5 I shot last season, 4 dropped at the hit and the last dropped in 20 yards with a huge blood trail, no need to track anyway.
Do NOT depend on the meplat if velocity is wrong. Alloy or nose work must be done. Muzzle energy and boolit diameter is no more then a selling point.
The .454 should do the very best at around 1300 fps with a hard boolit, to go faster would need some expansion started. There is still boolit work and "dwell time" in a deer.
It was a goofy season, shot a big doe in doe season, Shot a big 8 point in buck season and had to shoot a doe before another buck, did that and then a 7 point and another doe. 2 each day so I had 4 in two days. We can shoot 2 a day before tagging.
I figure I have 163 revolver kills here if I subtract bow and rifle kills. Might subtract a few more from ML's, lost track. I don't make grooves on my guns.
I put more deer dead in their tracks then rifle hunters do so do you want to talk revolver boolits?

[jwp475]

44man, your .454 may not be a good deer killer with hard fast boolits but mine is
great with them.


So is mine.

[44man]

So is mine.
Yeah John, but I make mostly behind the shoulder shots because I like shoulder meat. Once an archer, always an archer, stay away from bone!
Worst I ever did was hit a big buck in the shoulder with an 82# bow and have it stop at just broad head depth, break off right at the head.
Not saying a .454 will not work but you need to hit different.
Now a big animal that will stomp you, break shoulders. Spine is super good. Yet to have the right boolit put deer on the ground with a double lung shot only still makes me shake my head. How can a revolver do that?
Nothing I have said is based on neck, shoulder or spine shots. It is the short distance between ribs.
If anyone does not believe a hard .44 boolit does not work at 1316 fps, see neck damage. I do not see using 1800 fps with this.137769137770 Compare with a .475 exit in the neck, bigger boolit, WFN, faster and heavier but exactly right no matter where you hit. Funny I have an instant kill but less meat damage with a larger caliber. 137771 Bloodshot deer with .454 velocity using a softer boolit, lost entire shoulder. Harder boolit made a hole only.
You fail to compare boolit hardness with your .454 kills.
You say the .454 works but say you use a 50-50 alloy while I talk a different alloy.
The loss about results is always the alloy or where you hit. Too many times it is said to place the shot, sure, off hand with a revolver. So a few inches off can have you on your knees looking for a trail but my boolits work if off a little. I am not such an expert to break the CNS every shot. How I wish I was as good as some with a few kills under their belt.

[jwp475]

I have only used 454 bullets from my LBT mold and they were water quenched wheel weights 22 to 24 Brinel according to Veral Smith.

[44man]

Still best to hit them right. However if I had a .454, I would prefer about 1300 fps. Maybe 1400 or so. A boolit that hard at 1630 fps is like poking a sharp stick through the rib cage. Now I have no idea what even a lot faster will do. Might be a break over point.
My boolits average 22 but one alloy uses 17# of WW's and 3# of stereo lead.
I know if I would have taken shoulders, results would be different.
Now a strange thing happened with my friend Pete on two deer. He hit the shoulders and when he opened the deer, both were gut shot. He used the 320 LBT from Cast Precision. He found both boolits in the hams. Part of the nose was scoured off from bone and the boolits turned 90*. I checked the BHN and found they are not as hard as we use. .44 SRH.
No matter what we do, nothing is to be predicted. Do the best you can.

[Groo]

Groo here
I am with you on that.
We shot Ohio deer with SSK 320gr [ water dropped lawrence magnum metal- AKA HARD] at 1300 from our 44mags.
A buck took 5, 4 all the way, 1 we found from a Texas hart shot at distance.
All through the heart lung area, buck ran over 100yds went down and when we walked up
got up and went another 50-75 yds.
We called SSK about it, found that the load was Kelly's load for Africa [ the big stuff].
J.D. [SSK] said that Ohio deer only needed 200 to 240 hp boolets. [ they are just not that big].
This and other game have moved me away from super heavy boolets for general use. [ heavies are for heavies only]
Ps. I have even started to think that a 10mm 200gr at 1100 to 1200 and a 41 mag 210-220 at 1100 to 1300
maybe all that we need for everything except pig and stuff up over 500lbs.

[44man]

Yeah, I use too hard in some calibers myself. I should have learned with the doe I shot in the front at 30 yards after making her come to me from over 100 yards. .500 JRH, no damage except a hole until the diaphragm, then hell broke loose at the liver and guts before exit. I never seen a deer go straight up and down on her belly without legs hitting first. Then she had the nerve to run 20 yards!
If all the rest I shot with the gun were CNS or bone hits, I would tell you nothing is better but I shot the others behind the shoulders. Just not enough room to slow a boolit.
I do not agree with Kelly on Ohio deer. Seen two bucks that DRESSED at 420#, average buck at one place was 240#. Far cry from what I shoot here but have 2 doe at over 200#.

[Cornbread]

So is mine.

Add me to that list as well. I collect 454s so I have a bunch as it is my favorite caliber in a handgun, and I have rifles chambered in it as well, all of them are great deer, bear and elk killers with hard bullets pushed fast so long as they have a nice big, flat meplat on them. Every single deer, bear or elk I have shot with them has been a "bang flop" with one exception. That being 16 years ago I shot a blacktail buck too far back(it was a liver hit) with a 350gr JWord bullet before I switched to using all hard cast bullets which in my case means straight water dropped COWW. That buck made it about 40 yards before it dropped. After switching to hard cast pushed fast I have never had that issue but I have also never shot one that far back again either.

[leftiye]

This isn't to .44man. I'm startin' to think that the majority of the information here is lost to those who need it because of all the "experts" who are always present and ready to contest and deny virtually anything. One can hardly post anything without there being someone to claim to have knowledge to the contrary. Discussion is good, even some that the mods don't like. Please be sure that you have your ducks in line and your conclusions tested (TESTED, can you hear me now?) out before assuming that you actually know anything. More often than not, you don't.

[leftiye]

(Not the same subject as above post) It is illogical to think that because something kills well without expansion that it wouldn't kill better when expanded (everything does). It may well kill too well and do too much damage, or fragment, but unless you are sure that this is the case expanded is always better. Why settle for killing power in your .44 mags that could be and is available in a .44 special? I have heard the argument that energy wasted into a hillside is of no consequence. The problem is that it can be and should be of some consequence. Otherwise get and use a lesser caliber.

[44man]

That old argument will never go away. No such thing as "wasted energy." Energy "DUMP" is a myth. The recoil you feel is more then a deer feels.
We do not shoot elephant rifles at deer. It is a revolver that just does not have the energy. So you need to put what you have to use.
The revolvers I use that drop deer the fastest would kill 4 in a row. Make your boolit work in the first and all else does not matter. I have boolits on the moon that dropped deer instantly.
You can see it if you shoot jugs of water. If you blow up at least 2 and never catch the boolit, what does it matter? My .475 will blow up 4, split the fifth and go through at least 17 gallon jugs.
Many of you seen the video where a .44 bullet was stopped in a few balloons of water. I knew what would happen before the trigger was pulled. 100% wrong for hunting!
I have made the revolver shoot like a rifle but to make it work in deer has been one of the hardest things without removing accuracy because nothing else counts. Many say just a bigger meplat so I did that, going to 82% with just the same sad results. I went to larger calibers to see sad results.
The bigger hole from a few thousandths larger boolit means so little. You MUST make the boolit work where needed. A .45 Colt will NOT kill faster then a .44 unless you reach the same velocity. Since so many shoot soft boolits from the Colt, they dispute. Why does a .45 cap and ball kill as fast as a .44 mag? Boolit or ball work. same as the .45 flintlock has taken so many deer for me without a loss. I was told years ago the .45 muzzle loader was not enough.
The 10MM, .41, ACP and .357 will kill deer right quick but why? It is bullet/boolit choice.
A .22 will kill a deer and a .17 pellet gun will reach the brain. But that depends on where hit. I killed many deer in PA with healed in .22 bullets and had one here shot with a .22. In the neck, found the bullet just under the skin, turning green.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg3/bfrshooter/22bullet_zps3e198e50.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/bfrshooter/media/22bullet_zps3e198e50.jpg.html)
Then one guy shoots pigs with CB caps.

[leftiye]

The revolver "just does not have the energy," yet it has plenty of energy to penetrate three or four more deer after it kills the intended target deer.

It seems that you are saying that the velocity is necessary to creating the best wound and quickest kill while not needing a larger wound diameter. If so, why not then use a smaller diameter boolit and strike at the desireable 1300 fps and expand to .44 caliber or even more? It would be the desired size and velocity wound channel/dwell, and should do the same job. Penetrating an animal from end to end is waay cool, but it isn't involved with vital organs for but half or less of that travel. This though I can see an extra hole would possibly let out more blood, so an exit hole is good to have. Even if it is proximate to the anus.

You say that bigger calibers don't help, and that soft .45 Colt boolits don't kill any better than a .44 will, but that a 45 cap and ball round ball will kill as fast as a .44 mag. I'm a bit confused. I'd just use that extra energy to create a much larger wound (and stay with the larger caliber). Even though the performance of the Lyman devastator can be improved, the deer shot with it do seem to know the difference, and it seems to work quite well.

[jwp475]

(Not the same subject as above post) It is illogical to think that because something kills well without expansion that it wouldn't kill better when expanded (everything does). It may well kill too well and do too much damage, or fragment, but unless you are sure that this is the case expanded is always better. Why settle for killing power in your .44 mags that could be and is available in a .44 special? I have heard the argument that energy wasted into a hillside is of no consequence. The problem is that it can be and should be of some consequence. Otherwise get and use a lesser caliber.

This is not exactly true. If a 25 cent size hole through the heart of a deer brings the blood pressure to zero instantly a silver dollar size hole will not kill any quicker. A proper flat point hard cast will leave large wound channels. The key is having a proper bullet, nose profile as well as meplat size.

[44man]

John is right. But I never said a soft .45 will not kill fast, I said hard. There really is a difference so a softer boolit will do the job.
Have to keep the context of the alloy in place.
Nothing wrong with a .44 special either, just use the correct alloy.
A soft HP in the .44 mag might not make two holes or it might tear a deer to mush. Depends on weight and alloy.
The 240 XTP might be perfect in the special but opens too fast in the magnum so I would choose the 300 gr.
It all works the same so you might be happy with a 150 to 165 in the 30-06 but that could be wrong in the .300 mag where you might choose a 180 gr.
I shot a deer with the 7R and the 139 gr Hornady. No blood trail, had to walk circles to find it. Bullet too tough, no expansion from the pistol. Shot a deer behind the shoulder with the same bullet from a Lone Eagle 7mm-08. Found lung tissue on a bush but after miles, I never found the deer. The same bullet from the .280 made a huge mess.

[leftiye]

This is not exactly true. If a 25 cent size hole through the heart of a deer brings the blood pressure to zero instantly a silver dollar size hole will not kill any quicker. A proper flat point hard cast will leave large wound channels. The key is having a proper bullet, nose profile as well as meplat size.

So if a deer were killed by a 22 to the brain, and dead is dead, and a 500 Nitro wouldn't do any better, SO WHAT? What is the generally true statement?

[ole 5 hole group]

The generally true statement is "Bigger is normally always better" providing everything else under consideration is equal. Jim is correct as to energy dump - that is a marketing ploy relative to foot pounds of energy from your firearm.

Death comes from blood loss unless you are so lucky to perform CNS strikes. When the animal, whether 2 or 4 legged losses enough blood they collapse and unless treated quickly and efficiently they die. Bigger holes usually result in faster blood loss when placed correctly and that is always a good thing.


Nothing complicated about killing - it's the ability to choose the right bullet and place the shot correctly that can make a difference.

[leftiye]

To be clear, I agree with most that you've said. But I never actually was concerned with "energy dump" (which occurs inside an animal). I was only pointing out that energy wasted after exiting the animal could be utilized to expand the boolit and therefore create a larger wound channel. I do believe however, that energy expended into the animal is the mechanism whereby a wound is created - and does do damage (It cannot be otherwise.) If energy dump means this, then it cannot be said to be only a buzzword (not that I care).

Jim has brought to most of our awarenesses the fact that making a wound channel can be more complicated than used to be conceptualized. That is, that faster does not necessarily kill better - even when it does more damage, yet still in some cases being a poorer killer. But he himself uses soft noses to obtain better effect. Dwell time matters too. And as he points out, the increasing of velocity with alloy-only boolits has uses and also pitfalls, perhaps being more of a mire than hollow points is.

[44man]

Yes, it is more complicated then poking a hole. I was under the impression that a larger boolit and meplat with the same boolit alloy would be better. I thought faster would be better. Faster is OK if it upsets the boolit that is too hard at moderate velocities. I still do not understand why a real hard boolit works from the .44 and .475 but can fail with a .500.
The .454 is a great caliber but one alloy will not fit for all velocities shot with it. You need to adjust.
How to tell? Shoot animals. Hard will work with CNS hits but what about other?

[rhouser]

The following is quoted from the Garrett cartridges website: "What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps." It was extracted from his article on 45-70 penetration. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.htmls

This article is limited to discussion of penetration characteristics using large meplate hard cast bullets. Note that the maximum penetration velocity is at point of impact, not at the muzzle.

This does not mean that more isn't better, it just shows that the penetration is deepest in this window. Anything that will deliver 1250 FPS at the point of impact will do the job with Hard Cast WFN type bullets. It is why I don't feel a need for a MAX load in my 38-55, my 45-70, or my 454 Casull. I load to what I need for the distance I am hunting.

While Randy Garrett may not be the end all guru, to me he has proven he knows what the 45-70 with hard cast is all about.

my 2 cents.

thanks rch

[44man]

Much what I found. Penetration alone is not enough, it is what the boolit does before exit that counts and for deer it is about 1200 to 1300 fps. Premium bullet makers strive for penetration with maximum effect before the bullet leaves.

[Cornbread]

The following is quoted from the Garrett cartridges website: "What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps." It was extracted from his article on 45-70 penetration. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.htmls

This article is limited to discussion of penetration characteristics using large meplate hard cast bullets. Note that the maximum penetration velocity is at point of impact, not at the muzzle.

This does not mean that more isn't better, it just shows that the penetration is deepest in this window. Anything that will deliver 1250 FPS at the point of impact will do the job with Hard Cast WFN type bullets. It is why I don't feel a need for a MAX load in my 38-55, my 45-70, or my 454 Casull. I load to what I need for the distance I am hunting.

While Randy Garrett may not be the end all guru, to me he has proven he knows what the 45-70 with hard cast is all about.

my 2 cents.

thanks rch

For the 255grn RNFP (G1 BC of 0.1186) bullet I use for a lot of my hunting to be at 1,250fps at 100 yards out of my 454s it needs to have a muzzle velocity of about 1750fps. To me that isn't a mid-range load it is an upper end load, are you guys considering that a mid-range load? For what I call my mid-range loads I have a muzzle velocity of 1,400fps and I use a different powder than I do for waffle stomper loads. My mid-range loads are doing roughly 1050fps at 100 yards.

[shorty500M]

what i consider to be LITE in .454 is anything under a Ruger Only Load, Mid-Range Loads by my definition run 1200-1450 depending on bullet weight say the typical ROL or .44mag equivilant,then my ROMP'em STOMP'em loads start at typical loading manual maximum loads and then venture into Freedom Arms data

[rhouser]

Cornbread, I am 65 years old, and I consider 35 yards to be a good pistol shot (I would need a stump, a fence or my truck hood with my scope for a 50 yard shot).

I think the fact that you point out only a Casull, a Limbaugh, or something bigger will get the max penetration velocity window at 100 yards shows why these guns exist.

At 35 yards, an honest "mid-range" load should keep the bullet close to the max penetration window. I favor the C452-300-RF for this purpose.

To 44man's point, a 1/2 inch through and through will not kill humanely if it does not hit a vital bleeder or CNS point. It would hurt like hell, but, if no bone is involved and no vital point hit, the animal will be gone. Adrenaline is a wonderful thing.

I think 44man is also pointing out that there are many lethal shots that were from bullets well inside the maximum for penetration. My grandfather was a farmer in the 1950's and I witnessed entire herds killed with jack-lights and 22 RFs by he and my uncles when the deer got to the apple orchard. We did dress them for the freezer. Nothing was ever wasted on the farm.

I am a true believer in big meplate heavy hardcast bullets shot from lever guns with iron sights within a hundred yards. I still like to use a 38-55 with a Ranch Dog cast bullet out of a Marlin Lever gun with iron sites when hunting in the woods. I do this to aggravate the 40 something year old crew that takes me out to hunt each year. When I really want to aggravate these boys, I load with my Ranch Dogs and Black Powder. The smoke cloud makes them crazy. Note: I have two virginia deer in the freezer which is all my wife and I will eat in a year.

thanks to all
rch

[Cornbread]

rch: Yes, I don't want to try and come across as something I'm not, at 100 yards I have to be braced on something to make the shot and preferably sitting down when I do it. At 50 yards I can hit the vitals every time unbraced but I still have to be using both hands and would prefer to be braced. I don't scope my handguns, nothing against it, I just can't shoot past 100 yards personal skill wise anyway so why bother scoping it? If I think I am going to need to shoot further than that I carry a scoped rifle and even with a rifle I frequently lay down and rest my rifle on my pack for shots over 150 yards. My eyesight is really, really good though. As I get older and it gets worse I will probably be scoping my pistols too I would imagine.

Every year I try and kill at least one of my two allowed deer with a handgun(usually it is my doe tag and this isn't a hard thing to do here, they are kind of like rats if you know people with grain or alfalfa fields) and if I'm feeling froggy and have the time I try for my elk and my bear with a handgun too. I've killed deer with everything from a snub nosed .357 at under 20 yards(not recommending this but it's all I had on me at the time as I was fishing during deer season and I had my CC gun on me and a deer walked by super close so I shot it, it more or less dropped on the spot) to a 6.5" 454 Casull at over 80 but under 100. I've never done elk or bear with less than a 454. But even with 2 deer a year now, (and in years gone by it was 3 deer a year), I've only shot 50-ish deer in my life and only half or less were with a pistol so my experience level with shooting deer with a pistol isn't anywhere near as much as some on here.

In my limited experience I have found that hard bullets with a big flat meplat pushed fast covers me for anything I hunt but I don't push them so fast that they make my hands hurt when I practice. I have a load for 1,750fps for my Casull but it makes my hands ache, my hunting load is generally the bullet I mentioned before traveling a bit over 1,100fps at 100 yards which means a muzzle velocity of 1,500fps. You definitely know when you touch one off but you can fire a lot of them to practice without your hands feeling like somebody hit them with a sledge hammer. To me a muzzle velocity of 1,500fps with a 255grn bullet is not mid-level it's lower end of fast but I know with a hard bullet at any range I can shoot accurately it puts the smack down the three main types of big game I hunt without destroying a ton of meat like the JWord bullets I used when I first started pistol hunting did.

[leftiye]

Max penetration? Who cares? Certainly not the deer. Internal ballistics are where it is at (as the hippies used to say). Once the boolit has exited it can go into orbit, a tree, a cowpie, or a neighbor's cow for all it matters.

[44man]

Velocity at range is a good idea too so that would be where the .454 shines. Also for much larger game.
I made a seat to put against a tree with a folding back, plywood and some hinges and I propped up the front because most ground at a tree has a slope. It gives me a level seat and with a good cushion it is pretty comfortable. I can rest my elbows on my knees so I have shot deer to 120 yards that way.
I found out at 100 or so, the .44 does not kill as fast with my hard boolit. I still find them but with more tracking. I much prefer close shots where the deer might make 30 yards at the most. I can't make the MV any faster with my heavy boolits so it hits harder at 100 but I don't like to shoot that far anyway. I don't know 50 yard velocity but they sure do the job. My failures with the 45-70 have been in the 20 yard range so it should be much better at long ranges. So would the .454.
There is some fact that too hard, too fast or too heavy might not be the way to go at close ranges. I still believe in the pressure wave from a flat nose moving tissue out of the way. I can't explain what I see any other way. Upsetting the nose to slow the boolit has been an eye opener after dropping the hammer and coming out of recoil to see the deer on the ground.
To find the right combination has not been easy because I did go too soft with a HP in the 45-70 BFR to ruin half a deer. A fast kill with no meat to eat is not productive at all and a revolver can do that.
A friend had me load for his 30-06 and he only used Ballistic Tips. Where he hunts, he wants deer to drop, if it runs, someone else will be gutting it. I would not want to be the butcher! It is why I sold my .280, even deer on a dead run at 220 yards were bloodshot from head to ham. The 6.5 Swede is much better. Kills as fast but not the destruction. I don't like the 06 or .308 either and prefer a ML or 30-30. Yet we have so many here that use 7mm mags and .300 mags and they lose so many deer it makes me sick. I had to go with a neighbor yesterday to boot trespassers from our quarry. There are deer bones and hides all over from shot deer going to water. There are two dead deer in the little spot I check for shrooms.
Your little revolver can do all you need if you adjust the boolit. Might not be easy but you will learn.
The reason I don't like the .357 or .41 was all bullets/boolits were not right, made for two legged critters, not deer. But if you get it right good to go, but takes more work then larger calibers. I am too stinking lazy to experiment.

[jwp475]

In my experience the SSK 320 has a smallish me plat at least the ones I used back in the 80's did. They did not leave as large of a wound channel as I prefer. Nose profile and meplat size make a world of difference in my experience.

[leftiye]

One of the reasons I first became interested in hollow points was that a better ballistic coefficient could be had and still have good killing ability. This fits right in where the flat nosed boolits have to be driven to 1600 or 1800 fps to strike at 100 yds. at 1300 fps. in order to get good internal (terminal) action. I have several .45 round nose designs for which the molds have been HP'd. Only a little (to moderate) expansion has to happen to result in a meplat of generous dimensions. As is often the case, mo is usually bettah.

[jwp475]

So if a deer were killed by a 22 to the brain, and dead is dead, and a 500 Nitro wouldn't do any better, SO WHAT? What is the generally true statement?

I am talking about shots into the vitails such as heart and lungs resulting in loss of blood thus my statement " brings the blood pressure to zero".
The generally true statement is once you have a large enough wound channel a larger one doesn't kill any quicker.

[44man]

In my experience the SSK 320 has a smallish me plat at least the ones I used back in the 80's did. They did not leave as large of a wound channel as I prefer. Nose profile and meplat size make a world of difference in my experience.
My WLN has a meplat of .340"-.345", that's about 78%. It has done fantastic on deer as has the Lee 310. The Lee is a great boolit, had 5 left one season, shot 4 deer in 4 days and had a shot left.
My boolit has a long nose as close to 11* as I could get to fit my 11* forcing cone. Nose to CG is .435". Looks funny when loaded! Both leave a blood trail a blind man can follow but I usually see the deer drop or hear it go down.
I made an 82% boolit for the .44 and it does no better.
The .475 is the fastest killer with a hard boolit. I shot this deer facing me, hit just below the chin at 76 yards, took the neck, a row of short ribs, traveled under the spine to exit the ham, meat loss was zilch. Cut to the hole and back straps not damaged. 138778 It has never mattered where I hit with the gun, behind the shoulders or anywhere, it drops 99% of deer at the shot. Farthest one has gone was about 30 yards, heart shot. Deer was walking fast and Whitworth was hunting with me. I left the deer lie and left him in the stand to go get coffee so not to disturb him.
It took me time to make the JRH as good. Now it is my favorite and is easier to hit with then the .475. .475 has more barrel lift and torque so needs held very tight.
I can't tell anyone a WFN if very hard kills better because of more pressure wave. I know the .500 JRH was sad until I softened the nose. It only took about 1/8" of the nose and not dead soft, 3# of pure and 1# of WW metal. If you put thunder and lightning in one package that was it with almost no meat loss.

[leftiye]

I am talking about shots into the vitails such as heart and lungs resulting in loss of blood thus my statement " brings the blood pressure to zero".
The generally true statement is once you have a large enough wound channel a larger one doesn't kill any quicker.

The generally true statement is "Bigger is better." What you describe is an adequate wound. Larger wounds do kill both faster and better than adequate wounds (even if dead is dead).

[44man]

When I first started with the .500 JRH I had a doe walk out in front of me, 20 yards or so. Hit her behind the shoulders. She took off, I waited a bit and went to get her but there was nothing, not a speck of blood. I searched and walked circles, went out ahead to where they usually cross. I checked every trail but so many tracks I gave it up after about 4 hours.
I sat back down, spotted a nice buck walking at around 120 yards, made the same hit on him. He ran to me 100 yards, turned another 20 into the woods and went down. I back track every deer and there was not a drop of blood to where he was walking.
By the time I started to gut it got dark. My light flashed on white way up in the woods, it was the first deer. I could never see her from where I tried to track, she was a good 130 yards from my seat and went down next to a fallen log, again no blood trail. I quit hunting with the gun until last season to test the softer nose. 4 out of 5 dropped dead and the fifth made 20 yards squirting blood like a fire hose, Same type hits I had made before.
Sure changed my mind about too hard no matter the size. 440 gr with 82% meplat. 1350 fps. Meplat is the size of a .41 boolit.

[rhouser]

44man, Your .50 handgun load sounds very close to some of my 45-70 loads. I like a 460 gr ranch dog in an air-cooled lyman #2 or there abouts. 1350 FPS sounds about good for me in my Marlin GG. I don't believe I would enjoy that big .50 of yours. I truely enjoy your posts. I find them informed and accurate. thanks rch

[44man]

Air cooled or maybe 75-25 WW's and pure would be better then my harder. I use hard for better accuracy from my guns, they are PB and need a hard base.
You would love the JRH, smaller then the S&W, call it a S&W special! Might just be the best of the .500's.