I shouldnt be tempted but: 10ga semi...and slugs?

[cpileri]

I find myself staring at this WTS:
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/guns-sale/66206-ithaca-mag-10-roadblocker-semi-automatic.html

and thinking, "I wonder what 10ga slugs we can load up?" and other sinful thoughts like:

i bet the guys on CB (here) can help me?

how much pressure can this take?

any hardcast fullbore 10ga slugs out there?

Oh, temptation....

C-

[bikerbeans]

C-,

If you buy that auto-scatter gun I will fix you up on 10ga HB slugs.

BB

[cpileri]

Retro Santana!!!

[Hogtamer]

C, you were right to begin with.....you shouldn't be tempted! Take a cold shower and think 20 ga. instead!

[cpileri]

I know, I know.
But 18-pellet 00 buckshot! How cool is that?!?!?!

back to reality: so much more has been done w the 12ga that there really is no need fo the 10ga in my arsenal. And besides the 18-pellet buckshot load, we can already get 2oz 12ga hot, and mega heavy slugs.

So, bikerbeans, how heavy are those 10ga slugs??? oooo, and i bet we can get a ole lotta tungsten shot in a 10ga...


Ahhhhh! there I go again!

I'm hopeless.

C-

ps. obviously, i dont actually think bikerbeans is the devil. In case anyone wondered. :)

[littlejack]

That 10 gauge is gonna leave a mark, and I don't mean on the target!

[bikerbeans]

My 10ga HB slugs weigh about 740 grains.

BB

[littlejack]

I loaded and shot quite a few .69 conical musket bullets in my 870 rifled barrel. These ran around 750 grains.
Although the accuracy was very bad, the attention getting effect was very good. Enjoy.
Jack

[6pt-sika]

That 10 gauge is gonna leave a mark, and I don't mean on the target!

Wrong again !

I've owned a pair of the Ithaca MAG-10's , a Browning BPS 10 and a Remington SP-10 and none of the four buggered me up with factory buckshot or slug loads . Or the 2 1/4 ounce turkey loads for that matter .

[leeggen]

Last guy I saw shooting a 10 ga. was a biologist in Fl. . He was shooting out of a boat and they guys were lying down til the ducks came in then setup and shoot. After the 4 days of shooting he could not move his right arm, removed his shirt and he was bruised BIG TIME!!
CD

[littlejack]

leeggen just corroborated what I said, and he didn't even get paid!

[bikerbeans]

Shoot a 3.5 inch 12ga turkey load out a H&R pardner single shot with synthetic stock set and after that a 10ga will seem like 410.

BB

[cpileri]

6pt, you are NOT helping!

"Hello. My name is cpileri and I'm a recoil-a-holic."

[partisan39]

Hey hey!! Easy on the 410 ... that's my current fetish .. I'm loading some BPI 410 light game slugs with a single 0000 buck ball in 3 inch shells which are supposed to do 2850 fps! I haven't tried them out yet but itchin' to ditch work tomorrow and see how they shoot.

Wm


Shoot a 3.5 inch 12ga turkey load out a H&R pardner single shot with synthetic stock set and after that a 10ga will seem like 410.

BB

[bikerbeans]

C-

Did you buy it?

BB

[Hogtamer]

Handled my son's sxs Churchill by Kassnar 10 ga with 32" barrels yesterday, the dang thing must weigh 15 lbs, think it needs wheels....but then again, it doesn't kick so bad with all that weight....There I'm out of the closet. Did shoot a doe about 60 yds with it one time and there were 00s from head to tail in that poor girl. But that was 10 yrs ago and I haven't shot it since. Maybe it did kick a little!

[cpileri]

no, I read that the mag-10 had feed issues, so I am leery. although its down to 700$ now which makes it almost reasonable!

[cpileri]

now a solid 10ga double I might go for.

[Greg5278]

Carl, maybe a 3 Oz Slug in the MAG-10 for You? I have a 1200 Grain Slug from a 12 Bore Rifle that was Given to Me. Apparently it was used for some African Game. Since I'm pushing 1043Grains in the 12GA, 1200+ shouldn't be too much with proper Powder selection. Tungsten Shot would be good too, but really$$$. Maybe a 10 Ga Sabot round using my 1043 Slug patched or wrapped in PE sheet.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[Hogtamer]

I was reading another thread about casting with zinc. Seemed like some small minds were more interested in telling you why it wouldn't work and a few thoughtful casters with experience telling why not only would it work but why it may be beneficial. Since full bore slugs seem the quickest path to shotgun accuracy, just wondering if some of these bruising 12 ga full bore slugs might be cast from zinc - no leading and ?? 30% ?? lighter reducing the charge and accompanying recoil? Since there are some sharp guys reading this thread, wonder if that's worth a conversation...

[cpileri]

Hal,
hmmm...what zinc alloy would be ductile enough to not shatter on impact?
I would think a zinc slug in a wad would be bore safe.

greg,
1200grains!?!?! Was that for a 12ga or a 700 Nitro Express? is it a loaded round?

[longbow]

Zinc would be bore safe though a full bore zinc slug would certainly not be choke safe unless it had fairly narrow ribs Brenkeke like.

There are several threads posted buy members who have cast zinc boolits so no reason a slug couldn't be cast from zinc.

I had thought about ZAMAC for slugs a while ago as is a bearing alloy so certainly would not harm the bore.

Now going with Carl's logic and a wad slug, that might even make a solid slug choke safe especially in steel shot wads. Maybe many don't worry about that but I do just in case.

Anyway, zinc melts at a higher temperature than lead but is castable in regular iron moulds. In fact one member posted results using zinc in a Lee mould. Zinc will erode iron, and I am guessing aluminum, fairly quickly as it forms a low melting point alloy (with iron) at the surface at a molecular level. But an iron mould should last quite a while anyway and certainly long enough to cast test slugs.

A significant benefit of zinc in my opinion is being able to cast a full bore slug that doesn't weigh a horrendous amount.

For smoothbore I would go with a Brenneke style with ribs and attached wad. For rifled gun I am thinking that multiple small lube groove Loverin style but maybe narrower driving bands and wider grooves would be the ticket.

I've got too much on my plate now though and haven't even managed to test out my last slugs yet. I did make up some more of a different style yesterday so have to load those too. Point being that someone with more time and money will have to lead the charge on zinc slugs.

Great idea with lots of potential for sure. So have at 'er and post results!

Longbow

[Greg5278]

I did try Zinc Years ago. As I recall is was 67% the weight of WW with 2% Tin. It does not shatter when hitting things it can Penetrate. It will go through 5/16" Mild Steel in 12 ga, but shatter on impact with 1/2". You can't size it, it's way too hard, almost 45-50 Brinell. Mold fill out is poor, and cutting The Sprue is really tough, you've got to hit it a few times. I used my Mold for the 770 Grain Truncated cone slug with a .500" Metplat. \

Up close it would be fine, but would lose Velocity more quickly.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[cpileri]

Greg,
Is there any critter's hide or bone that is tougher than 5/16" mild steel?

Longbow,
do you cut your own molds or what? you seem to have a neverending supply of styles to choose from?
C-

[Hogtamer]

I may buy one of these and give zinc a try.....by Greg's recollection it should weigh about 515 grns in zinc. Need about 800 * heat to pour if my homework is right.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-770S-D.png

[cpileri]

If one of you guys does this thing, i need to buy some slugs from you!

[cpileri]

Looking at this video: http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2015/04/21/video-homemade-70-caliber-aluminum-turbine-shotgun-slugs-action/ i'd think a lighter than lead slug would need to be a weight-foward or perhap a straight wadcutter design o prevent keyholing. i know turbo1889 can do calculations on stabiity to get a good shape. too smart for me though.
C-

[Hogtamer]

Was hoping he'd chime in here. i believe he had experience with zinc but info was removed thanks to some knuckleheads...

[CHeatermk3]

Not to hijack this thread, but I got some sabots from Hubel458 that take a minie ball boolit--for rifled barrels--I cast some up 50/50 WW/Pb and shot some into some 30" diameter fir rounds and they went right thru 14" the long way and bounced off the ground and kept right on goin'. Just used 12ga data and substituted the sabot/slug for the shot charge--used a roll crimp.

[Hogtamer]

Ok, sent Tom @ accurate molds an email, telling him what I proposed and asking his imput. If he doesn't come up with a show stopper I'm gonna give the zinc a whirl. I wonder how shrinkage will differ vs lead.

[longbow]

Carl:

Yeah I kinda cut moulds. I make a mould similar to the old Ideal Cylindrical moulds. They are a simple bored cavity with an ejector pin at the bottom and sprue plate on top. The ejector pin can be just that, an HP pin, a hollow base plug or a nose form which is what I do most commonly. My slug moulds are a slight deviation where I use a separate nose form under the sprue plate so nose pour mould with the ejector being the HB plug.

The ribbed slug mould has an insertable slotted core and the HB plug rides in that.

You would figure I would have made more progress but I set my standard fairly high for long range accuracy and so far just haven't consistently gotten there with slugs. For the most part my more conventional style moulds have done as well or better than commercial slugs I've tried, just not good enough at 100 yards to keep me happy. I do have a sub-bore TC design that cast at 525 grains that shot 3" groups at 50 yards but required heat treating to stop skirt deformation so I abandon it, but it is back in the works again. I will try filling the cavity and use it at 100 yards.

Hogtamer:

There were at least a couple of threads on casting zinc boolits if you haven't seen them and IIRC the results were pretty good. Not sure about shrinkage and mould fillout. Lead boolits do not seem to shrink as much as lead shrinkage data indicates but I am guessing having a sprue puddle reduces effective shrinkage as the boolit can draw in lead while still liquid then shrinkage is from solid at the mould and solid temperature.

Zinc should be similar so even if shrinkage is greater than lead I think effective shrinkage in the mould will be less than zainc shrinkage would indicate. Also, the mould will expand more due to higher temperature so overall it may be okay. Again, those thread likely had as cast diameters for zinc so good info.

If you are going to buy an Accurate mould I would recommend iron. I think brass would be a bad choice with zinc and aluminum may warp due to high temperature. Tom may have better advice though.

Longbow

[BAGTIC]

Zinc does not shatter on impact. Against mild steel it will penetrate similar to a steel cored bullet of the same weight.

[Greg5278]

CP the 1200 Grain slug was for a 12 Bore Rifle. It was a fully rifled version of the Paradox Gun which just had Rifled Chokes. It was the Old Timer version of our Modern Slug Guns. We could Probably push it to 11-1200 FPS in a Modern Gun with the right Powder.

Maybe a Quad Ball Load in the 10 Ga? Use 575 Balls in a split plastic Rod to center Them?

Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[cpileri]

Just when I had finally stopped jonesing for that 10ga...

[6901]

I shoot a Browning BPS 10 for turkey and geese with a variety of factory loads. Can't speak for any other gun but the recoil is not a problem.
That is in hunting situations its not shoot for fun gun!!

[TonyfromItaly]

Hello everyone. About zinc slugs.....
I have cast some zing slugs in 12 ga in the past, much like a foster slug, and loaded it into commander wad. You need an oxygen torch to melt it and have to be very quick on the sprue plate. Its fumes are much more toxic then lead, so have to wear a mask with filters.

If i had to make more of those, this time i would make a steel mold, and instead of sprue plate i would make the mold with a funnel contour on top of the slug, to be sawed off later. Those slugs i tried, penetreted about 6 inches into a dead stump with no noticeable change in the shape of the slug. You could have reloaded it as was taken off the stump.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Zinc sounds extremely promising for the amateur caster or even amateur mouldmaker. But I don't think we are liable to find anything in zinc but sabot otn the market. The reason is that if bore-fitting slugs were available, some member of the intellectual classes would surely use them in an over-tight bore or (Do you really want to think about this?) a choke, and both of those are a serious matter. The hand of God was upon the men who made my single-barrel W&C Scott. Whoever heard of a single with best quality engraving, damascus about 60% thicker than you need in a double for shot, and every bit of the wood fiddleback? But it is about 3/4 choke, which for me rules out any slug that isn't in a plastic sabot.

A 10ga bears about the same relation to load and recoil as any other shotgun. Assuming normal shotgun velocity and pressure, if the projectile and powder aren't more than a hundredth the weight of the gun, you will be all right. If velocity and pressure are higher, you may not be all right, but no worse than you would be with a 12. Some people, of course, will load them to much greater intensity, but until the dinosaurs come back, dispersion and not energy or trajectory are the enemies of the shotgun slug shooter in woodland conditions.

[M-Tecs]

I have owned three Mag 10's. First was an Ithaca Deluxe that was lost in a burglary. This was very reliable and a great gun. It’s replacement was a standard Ithaca Mag10. This was a *** and was sold. About 10 years ago I purchased a Remington SP10 that again was outstanding but it had the same problem that all Mag 10’s have. They weigh 11 to 11 ¼ pounds. Due to this recoil is not an issue. In the day that you could use lead shot and pass shooting geese was the way it had a use but I no longer have a use for any shotgun that weighs 11 plus pounds.

If you are OK with the weight the recoil will not be an issue. I prefer the Remington SP 10 over the Ithaca’s. Some Ithaca are great and some have issues. The SP-10 seem to be trouble free.

[cpileri]

And now I have Ajay on another forum encouraging me to go for it.

You guys are enablers!

[bikerbeans]

-C,

Go for it, i have cast almost 1,000 0.775" H.B slugs. Somebody needs to help me shoot them.

BB

[hubel458]

For those who buy slugs you can put 69 cal Minie bullets in a 10ga VP100

wad that BPI has. Dixie Gunworks has 69 cal Minies. they are 730gr and with

105gr of 4759 will really get your attention in decent barrel 10 ga.

If light barrel use 95 gr. In bull barrel NEF 10 ga we use huge loads of RE17

about 160gr. Ed.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Zinc would be bore safe though a full bore zinc slug would certainly not be choke safe unless it had fairly narrow ribs Brenkeke like.


It depends what you mean by choke safe. The chances of actually bursting the barrel at the choke are low, and the chances of doing damage to yourself or even an innocent bystander even lower. It won't produce a classic ring-bulge, because the obstructing slug will have moved on by the time the gases have built up as a pressure wave. But especially in an old barrel, it could expand and perhaps even crack the choke. I don't believe this is likely with even a close-fitting plastic shot-cup wad.

Most modern shotgun barrels are pretty true to the standard diameter, and are likely to have it stamped on them in inches or millimetres, rather than the less intelligible 10, 10/1, 10/2, 11 system. But it was quite common for early breech-loader barrels to be tight, and this is the one which is liable to be dangerous - not just a little, but very - with an oversize zinc slug. In this case the collision of zinc and steel will occur in the forcing cone, just where the front of the chamber is a weakness and pressure is at is highest.

[bikerbeans]

For those who buy slugs you can put 69 cal Minie bullets in a 10ga VP100

wad that BPI has. Dixie Gunworks has 69 cal Minies. they are 730gr and with

105gr of 4759 will really get your attention in decent barrel 10 ga.

If light barrel use 95 gr. In bull barrel NEF 10 ga we use huge loads of RE17

about 160gr. Ed.

Ed,

95g of 4759 and a 740g HB fullbore slug got my attention in a 10ga heavy barrel H&R single shot.

BB

[cpileri]

OK, I finally went back to the sale thread, and...






Well, its been sold. One less temptation.

Although I am sure you guys will find one to tempt me with anew, someday!

[facetious]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVy3GEotwBA

you could get one of these to shoot slugs.:bigsmyl2: