My first Pound-Casting

[49FMarlin]

(updated)
the measurements were taken with a set of digital calipers,
In learning as i go from GOOD folks here, I need to measure with a micrometer
Ill leave my digital measurements and later show the CORRECT ones


(original post)
so i don't have any molds, no lead bullets,
but i do have pure lead,,,

1- read the STICKIE on pound-casting (thanks for that sticky-- it has PICTURES)

2- poured some lead into a Winchester 30-30 case I've fired in my 1949F waffle-top Marlin rifle after torching it red hot to anneal it (the brass NOT the rifle)

3-took some aluminum tape, wrapped it around a cigarette sticky side out, then sticky side in--so the sticky is inside the tape sandwich)
(almost the same size as the outside diameter of the case)

4- slid the tape tube over the case neck (nice snug fit)

5-poured some more lead fulling the tape

6-after cooling cut the tape with a razor-blade, and peeled it off

7-using razor trimmed the lead down cut the nose to length

8-sprayed it with case lube and levered it up into the rifle (ok it was a little long and took a few grunts)

9-slid 2 lightly oiled cleaning patches down the barrel with my brass rod

10-squinted my eyes/shuddered and beat the rod about 5 times, a nice dead-blow wack-tap with a 2 pound short handled sledge--wispering oh gawd,,ohh gawd until the brass rod danced

11- pulled the lever to unload,,,oh ohhhhhh,,where did i go wrong? what did i mess up,,,,,,,oh shibbers,,,,OH WAIT DU----
tap-tap-tap levered it out, pop goes the casting

maybe ill do another
not sure as to if i need to

cheers all
thanks

[Yodogsandman]

OK, so what does it tell you? Did you take measurements?

[Fluxed]

Buy some Cerrosafe.

[49FMarlin]

OK, so what does it tell you? Did you take measurements?

.301 in the grooves
.3085-309 on the larger (sorry brainfarting the terminology)
.331 on the case neck
.1185 from case mouth to the bevel on the lead

unfortunately i can't pul the lead out, to get a inside case measurement,(forgot to oil it?)
ill shoot off another round and do an inside casting again for just that

[49FMarlin]

Buy some Cerrosafe.

i probably will later but i was bored and wanted to try this,
and I've read that the cerrosafe shrinks up and you've only got so much time to measure, then you have to do math,,yeck i hate math

[Yodogsandman]

What was the diameter between the end of the case mouth and the beginning of the rifling?

[49FMarlin]

What was the diameter between the end of the case mouth and the beginning of the rifling?
.330 in-between case and rifling

[49FMarlin]

Moderator Please delete this post,
my measurements are wrong as I'm using asset of calipers and NOT a mic

ill post later when i get accurate numbers
thank you

[Dusty Bannister]

Moderator. There is always value in the process of discovery. Perhaps 49F would just update the thread with an explaination of the incorrect measurements and others would benefit. Showing the caliper measurements, then the correct measurements with a micrometer would illustrate why so many remind others to use a micrometer. Besides the pound cast process has good photos and shows a method of casting the long portion of a slug for pound casting. It just did not turn out quite as he expected.

[RogerDat]

I find those to be some very good photos to demonstrate the process, that combined with the 49F's willingness to address and learn from mistakes both make this a good thread. Just my never humble opinion.

[49FMarlin]

Ive updated the original post,
and as suggested
ill post correct numbers later when i get them,

THANKS GUYS
for the help/shared knowledge and kindness

John

[Yodogsandman]

.330 in-between case and rifling

Your case neck looks to be pushed back. Could it be? Maybe from sizing or maybe trying to force the case into the chamber with that hunk of lead.

The abrupt step forward of the case mouth looks like it should be right at the end of the case mouth or within just a couple ten thousands.

Calipers should be good enough for some rough measurements, if it's what you have. The whole reason for asking your measurements is to suggest a sizing die and maybe the best mold possibilities for your rifle. A lever action can't be sized as tight as a bench gun and the boolit will be swaged to the bore size upon firing. The general rule of thumb is to use a boolit 002" over bore diameter but, it still needs to fit within your free bore area between the end of your case mouth and the shoulder at the beginning of your lands.

I'm still having problems figuring out non-digital micrometers. I just hardly ever have any practice and have no real prior use except for qualifying at work once a year, twenty years ago. I have a 1" Lyman and Starret. The Starret is easier.

[49FMarlin]

Your case neck looks to be pushed back. Could it be? Maybe from sizing or maybe trying to force the case into the chamber with that hunk of lead.

The abrupt step forward of the case mouth looks like it should be right at the end of the case mouth or within just a couple ten thousands.

Calipers should be good enough for some rough measurements, if it's what you have. The whole reason for asking your measurements is to suggest a sizing die and maybe the best mold possibilities for your rifle. A lever action can't be sized as tight as a bench gun and the boolit will be swaged to the bore size upon firing. The general rule of thumb is to use a boolit 002" over bore diameter but, it still needs to fit within your free bore area between the end of your case mouth and the shoulder at the beginning of your lands.

I'm still having problems figuring out non-digital micrometers. I just hardly ever have any practice and have no real prior use except for qualifying at work once a year, twenty years ago. I have a 1" Lyman and Starret. The Starret is easier.


I have done another pounding,with a new case, annealed
here is the pictures,

I haven't done any measuring, as i don't want to mess it up,
ill go see a gunsmith and ask him to do the measurements,

[Yodogsandman]

You should do fine without the gunsmith. You just have a generous free bore area. So, you need a boolit about .002" over your bore diameter or .3105" to .311".

I would size to .310" or .311"

My Lee 309-170F's only cast from the mold at just under .310" with COWW's +2% tin (Sn). They just might work out OK in your rifle or ???

My Lee 309-113F casts right at .311" with the same alloy.

[Dusty Bannister]

"The general rule of thumb is to use a boolit 002" over bore diameter but, it still needs to fit within your free bore area between the end of your case mouth and the shoulder at the beginning of your lands."

This is just not correct. The "BORE" diameter is the hole drilled in the barrel. The "GROOVE" diameter is the larger diameter after the rifling is cut or engraved.

The usual recommendation is .002" over GROOVE diameter, as long as the cartridge will chamber easily.

[Yodogsandman]

Bore diameter is groove diameter. A .308 bore is not a .301, .301 is the land diameter. I should have used the word "groove" though, sorry for any confusion in my quest to keep it simple for the OP.

[s mac]

Don't want to impede your progress but I would recommend buying a 1 inch mic in the future, I know I use mine all the time, you can pick one up quite reasonably.

[runfiverun]

woah that is some serious length from the case mouth.
I think someone got carried away with the length of the neck on the chamber cutter.

if I had this rifle I would take just a little time and make 5 cases from something like the
30-40 krag, or 303 brit, and see how things went from there.
trying to fill that much gap with a boolit is gonna lead to issues other than fit.

[49FMarlin]

Your case neck looks to be pushed back. Could it be? Maybe from sizing or maybe trying to force the case into the chamber with that hunk of lead.

The abrupt step forward of the case mouth looks like it should be right at the end of the case mouth or within just a couple ten thousands.

Calipers should be good enough for some rough measurements, if it's what you have. The whole reason for asking your measurements is to suggest a sizing die and maybe the best mold possibilities for your rifle. A lever action can't be sized as tight as a bench gun and the boolit will be swaged to the bore size upon firing. The general rule of thumb is to use a boolit 002" over bore diameter but, it still needs to fit within your free bore area between the end of your case mouth and the shoulder at the beginning of your lands.

I'm still having problems figuring out non-digital micrometers. I just hardly ever have any practice and have no real prior use except for qualifying at work once a year, twenty years ago. I have a 1" Lyman and Starret. The Starret is easier.


yes, something pushed the case neck back
as its way shorter than a fired-trimmed case and this one was fired and trimmed,
heres a measurement of the two

its pushed back .053

I'm at a loss as to why or what i did, other than annealing the case

[MBTcustom]

It didn't get pushed back. Lead just flowed over the neck. This is why, in the tutorial, I recommend trimming the case back a ways in the sticky. It's going to flow over that area anyway, and you really could use a true measurement in that area, and you're never going to use the case again, so why not?

You did very well. Excellent idea with the aluminum tape!
The only thing I would recommend, (other than to trim the case back) is to use a little bit longer slug next time (you see you just barely have a good look at your rifling there?).
Also, don't assume that the slug was perfect first time out of the gate. It's darn close, especially right right below the punch area, but deeper measurements like your neck diameter may not be perfect. usually, I go and file off the rifling so the tip of the slug is bore diameter, reinsert it into the chamber, and bump it again. I've never had to bump it more than three times.
I know that some of my friends have done pound casts of chambers I have cut, and they designed bullets around the dimensions they got from a single bump, and I know for a fact those measurements were in error.
Remember to use only light taps with a large hammer. If you wail on it, you will make a perfect impression all right, bit you will have to punch so hard to get the blessed thing out of the chamber that some of your diameters could be bumped up as you are pushing it out. You want to be able to get the chamber slug out with just light taps with the hammer. If you have to pound very hard, file the slug and do it again, but don't wail on it so much next time.

Finally, do use a micrometer. I highly recomend a Fowler tenth reading analogue digital micrometer for a cheap, reliable micrometer. I bought one for a friend for low money on Ebay and he liked it so much, he bought one for a friend of his. Both needed calibration, but once calibrated they were accurate to .000050 over the entire range. Not too shabby for a digital mic that costs less than $50!!!

[49FMarlin]

It didn't get pushed back. Lead just flowed over the neck. This is why, in the tutorial, I recommend trimming the case back a ways in the sticky. It's going to flow over that area anyway, and you really could use a true measurement in that area, and you're never going to use the case again, so why not?

You did very well. Excellent idea with the aluminum tape!
The only thing I would recommend, (other than to trim the case back) is to use a little bit longer slug next time (you see you just barely have a good look at your rifling there?).
Also, don't assume that the slug was perfect first time out of the gate. It's darn close, especially right right below the punch area, but deeper measurements like your neck diameter may not be perfect. usually, I go and file off the rifling so the tip of the slug is bore diameter, reinsert it into the chamber, and bump it again. I've never had to bump it more than three times.
I know that some of my friends have done pound casts of chambers I have cut, and they designed bullets around the dimensions they got from a single bump, and I know for a fact those measurements were in error.
Remember to use only light taps with a large hammer. If you wail on it, you will make a perfect impression all right, bit you will have to punch so hard to get the blessed thing out of the chamber that some of your diameters could be bumped up as you are pushing it out. You want to be able to get the chamber slug out with just light taps with the hammer. If you have to pound very hard, file the slug and do it again, but don't wail on it so much next time.

Finally, do use a micrometer. I highly recomend a Fowler tenth reading analogue digital micrometer for a cheap, reliable micrometer. I bought one for a friend for low money on Ebay and he liked it so much, he bought one for a friend of his. Both needed calibration, but once calibrated they were accurate to .000050 over the entire range. Not too shabby for a digital mic that costs less than $50!!!

THANK YOU SIR, for your kind words,
I did pull the slug out of the case,
below is another picture, and it is shorter than a trimmed case,
i heated the whole case cherry red and poured the lead,
so maybe i softened up the case too much?

when i re-do my casting, ill use your above advice on the longer lead length, and the filing and taping,

and you are right it was more than a tap, but not a full force spike driven blow
ill go to the lighter tapping,

again thank you,
love this group and the learning here

john

[Yodogsandman]

49FMarlin, What's your measurement from the base of the case to the pronounced step forward of the case mouth and before the rifling starts? This would normally be where the case mouth ends in your chamber and would tell us if your chamber neck area is cut too long or not.

[49FMarlin]

Ive done two more poundings,
doesn't matter how soft or a little harder,i tap,
the cases "round out" at the case-taper and come out shorter than the starting trim length,
ive even heated the case and put a wire in poking out any possible air pockets,

heres a pic

right to left
2.1615 to the first taper

2.1845 to the end of taper and ballard grooves begin

[49FMarlin]

shaved with a razerblade and filed the grooves off,
re-inserted into chamber,
as Tim suggested, second one came out a lot crisper as he said, THANK YOU,

gonna go for the third tomorrow with it,

[Yodogsandman]

Ive done two more poundings,
doesn't matter how soft or a little harder,i tap,
the cases "round out" at the case-taper and come out shorter than the starting trim length,
ive even heated the case and put a wire in poking out any possible air pockets,

heres a pic

right to left
2.1615 to the first taper

2.1845 to the end of taper and ballard grooves begin

What's the case length after these pound casts with the first taper at 2.1615"? I would have expected the first taper to be about 2.050" + up to maybe 2.070". runfiverun suggested making 30-30 cases from longer cases like the 30-40 krag to make up the long neck length difference. The case mouth should be about .020" shorter than your first taper measurement. That allows for .010" growth before having to re-size. The way it seems now, your boolit would be unsupported during firing for about 1/8" without using the longer necked cases. You can try some loads with your regular 30-30 cases first but, you might just have to heed runfiverun's great advice if it doesn't work out.

[49FMarlin]

did it again today,
measurements were taken under an AMP-SCOPE 10x20 magnification under bright lights,
(I was a backyard machinist long,long ago in a house far far away-- so i know my way around calipers)
then moved onto book for the pictures calipers were locked down so not to loose the data

1=an unfired trimmed case, measures 2.028 as per book spec
2=a fired case from my rifle--measures 2.026 it started as a spec trimmed case
3=case after pounding--2.010
4=first ring from case end--2.152
5=ring at grooves--2.1895
6=first ring from brass edge--0.131
7=2cd ring from brass edge--0.172

so doing math,
1st pic trimmed spec 2.028
-3rd pic case pounded 2.010
----------
error of .018 from spec because of fired case and pounding shrinkage-deformity


so 4th pic "first ring from case end" should be 2.152 -.018 = 2.134
so 5th pic should be 2.1895 - .018 = 2.1715
so 6th pic should be 0.131 - .018 = 0.113
so 7th pic should be 0.172 - .018 = 0.154

I think I've done this math right, I think i know better than trust my life on it,
so I'm thinking that in sharing, the ones that think smarter than me,
will tell me what they think, letting me know if my thunkin is wright or wong

cheers
and thanks for all the input and help here guys i appreciate it, and I'm learning, slow as it might be

john

[49FMarlin]

49FMarlin, What's your measurement from the base of the case to the pronounced step forward of the case mouth and before the rifling starts? This would normally be where the case mouth ends in your chamber and would tell us if your chamber neck area is cut too long or not.

please see my above post,
I BELIEVE but not sure of my math,
the measurement you want is,
2.1715

[Yodogsandman]

I'm believing that your 2.1715" measurement minus say .020" should be you case length. That would allow for .010" growth in case length before needing to trim cases again with a .010" safety margin. Got any 30-40 Krag or 303 British cases around to form new cases from as R5R has suggested?

[49FMarlin]

I'm believing that your 2.1715" measurement minus say .020" should be you case length. That would allow for .010" growth in case length before needing to trim cases again with a .010" safety margin. Got any 30-40 Krag or 303 British cases around to form new cases from as R5R has suggested?

No i don't all i have is the 30-30 win cases some hornady and PPU'a all 30-30

[49FMarlin]

I'm believing that your 2.1715" measurement minus say .020" should be you case length. That would allow for .010" growth in case length before needing to trim cases again with a .010" safety margin. Got any 30-40 Krag or 303 British cases around to form new cases from as R5R has suggested?

now I'm confused,
are you saying my trimmed to spec cases are too short ? even for a normal reloading round?
spec trimmed cases are 2.028

2.1715 minus .020 =2.1515 - .1235 longer than a spec case thats saying a spec case is almost an 1/8 inch too short in my rifle,

oh my gawd I'm confused,

untrimmed case, at 2.0325
2.183 at the lands-smallest bevel

2.1715-.020=2.1515 for a suggested case length

picture shows this would make the case as long and up to my 1st bevel