7.62x25 as self defense round

[Artful]

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/04/06/7-62x25-self-defense/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2015-04-14&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter


Is 7.62×25 Appropriate for Self-Defense?

Examining the ballistic performance of high-velocity hollow point ammunition.

Posted April 6, 2015 in Shooting by Oleg Volk

http://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/762x25-529x660.jpg
Surplus 7.62x25mm FMJ ammunition: corrosive, flashy and punchy.

7.62×25 Tokarev cartridge is a higher-pressure 1930 update of the 1896 high-velocity 7.63mm Mauser. Originally designed for pistols, it was also used in several submachine guns. As a result, it used mainly medium speed powders and produces a substantial muzzle flash. Most of the ammunition available is military surplus, with thick jackets and great penetration–a predictable product of high velocity and small cross-section. A typical Tokarev-chambered pistol launches 85 grain bullets at around 1400fps at the muzzle. Some surplus and modern factory loads approach 1500fps. In gelatin, that gives a straight line 30-caliber 30+ inch long wound channel that widens only where the bullet flips end over end once. The plus side of the load is its high penetration, sufficient to defeat car body panels and lower-level body armor. The down side is its high penetration, almost guaranteeing that the bullet will exit an unarmored opponent and keep on going. For a defensive round in an urban environment, that’s a liability.

Despite this potential problem, quite a few people carry pistols in 7.62×25. They are relatively inexpensive, robust, and have a dieselpunk style to them. The two most popular models are CZ vz.52, a roller-lock delayed blowback Czech pistol, and a TT33, a Soviet locked beech design with very simple lockwork.
vz52 pistol with military holster
http://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/cz52_flapholster_5239-660x440.jpg
vz52 pistol with military holster. The design doesn’t seem drop-safe.
TT33 pistol in a custom Kydex holster
http://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/TT33_holster_9569web-440x660.jpg
Polish TT33 pistol in a custom Kydex holster. The added safety only blocks the trigger but not the sear.

TT33’s simplified lockwork means that it cannot be carried cocked and locked despite being a single action design. By doctrine, it should be carried at half-cock, but safety of that practice is in question.

The accuracy of TT33 and vz52 varies from good to poor, depending on the barrel condition and the trigger. Soviet-made TT33 has a narrow, sharp trigger face, which makes the heavy pull even more problematic. The sights of a Czech pistol are typical tiny metal nubs. TT33 uses a tall, narrow front blade and a wide rear notch, a design that works fairly well even in poor light. Both designs are reliable, and the bottlenecked casing shape helps with easy extraction.

http://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/M57_pistol_DSC4385-660x441.jpg

Most recently, a Yugoslav M57 variant of TT33 has become available in the US. Broadly similar to the original, it has a longer grip and holds an extra round in the magazine, bringing the total capacity to 9+1. It also has a 1911-style safety that blocks the sear.

http://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/M57_slide_DSC4388-660x441.jpg

Wider trigger face helps with the still heavy trigger pull. With a pistol that can be carried safely, the interest in the cartridge has increased again. Unfortunately, surplus ammunition has largely dried up, and most of the commercial loads are plain ball with the usual over-penetration problem.

http://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/PPU_762x25JHP_5163web-660x596.jpg

Serbian-made Prvi Partisan JHP load is economical enough to be use for carry and occasional practice.

This ammunition proved extremely consistent, with measured velocity always in the 1403-1408fps, even in different weather. It’s behavior in gelatin has been quite consistent as well, with 16″ of straight line penetration and reliable expansion to .45 caliber. For comparison, 45ACP Winchester Ranger SXT also penetrates 16″, though expanding to .90 caliber in the meantime. So we can estimate wound channel of 7.62×25 to be similar to that of 45ACP ball, but with penetration limited to that of hollow point bullets. The smaller, faster bullet produces greater temporary stretch cavity due to the higher impact velocity.

http://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/762x25_ammo_magazine_DSC4389-660x441.jpg
M57 magazine holds an extra round over TT33 or vz52.

Advantages of 7.62 JHP over 45ACP are capacity for the same magazine size, flatter trajectory, slightly lower felt recoil. The same advantages were cited in support of 38 Super ammunition back in the 1930s. Not surprisingly, one of the export variant of TT33 included a 38 Super barrel as well as a 9mm Luger barrel. Shorter 9mm cartridges required a magazine spacer for reliable feeding, but 38 Super fit just fine. For short-range use with pistols, 45ACP JHP is quite obviously superior to 7.62 JHP in terminal effect. The question is: “With improved ammunition, is 7.62×25 good enough to be considered a practical defensive round?” The answer, based both on gelatin testing and on hog hunting results, seems to be “Oh, very yes!”

Interesting - never considered it for hog hunting.

[9-toes]

I was thinking about getting one of these but component availability is one of my deciding factors when buying a gun. Frankly I get the chills just thinking about having to chase that brass on the range. I ended up with a Zastava 9mm variant that I will be working up a load for shortly. She ain't the Prom Queen in my collection but so far she seems sturdy.

[Outpost75]

PPU Ball gives 1404 fps in my Cz52.

Sellier & Bellot ball gets 1687 fps!

Accurate 31-087T and 5.5 grains of Bullseye cycles reliably at 1370 fps. and is more accurate than surplus ball ammo.
(5-grains of Bullseye listed by Lyman for .30 Mauser / 7.62 Tokarev is only 1250 fps, and too weak to function my CZ52).

6 grains of Bullseye with 93-grain Norma JSP (.307") gets 1493 fps., functions reliably and shoots to the sights.

[jrayborn]

I use Clark's Crazy Power Pistol load with surplus 110 grain .30 Carbine bullets. I don't use his max load, I go a grain under. haven't chrono'd it yet but WOW!

[bouncer50]

Russian mob hit man weapon two to chest one to the head. When the police try to trace the pistols the records stop at WW11. Their are guys they call black panther who hunt old battle fields to dig for weapon and sell on the black market. One of the few pistol caliber that can make holes in bullet proof vest that some mob guys wear. That why one to the head to make sure. I reload for mine with hollow points it has better knock down power. I also have a AMT 30 caliber carbine pistol that is a power full flame thrower

[GhostHawk]

I've been shooting my CZ-52 for about a year with the Lee .311 93 gr bullet sized down over 4-5 grains of Red Dot.

As for components, I've been making my own brass out of .223 blanks (GI issue I got a big bag from a buddy)
Because the blank brass tends to be thinner I wouldn't trust them 100% for .223, but cut down to 25mm and sized they work fine.

I suspect mine are not as fast as the Military ball ammo or the PPU (I have a couple of boxes of those for home defense) but my home built rounds work fine for practice.

My only real complaint with this Caliber/Pistol, is that it seems to throw the brass as fast and as far as it throws the lead. I lose about half of my brass on any given outing.

As for forming, the Lee dies are not great, they don't IMO put enough neck on. So I found a work around solution, but it is not elegant. I'm using a Lee Loader in 7.62x54r, and a punch and hammer. About 8-10 good whacks drops the neck down to match factory ammo. I also use a Lee FCD die from my 7.62x39, inserting the loaded rounds in the top, crimping the bullet lightly once, and the neck a big more a second time.

The single biggest help however was the lee trim system for this caliber. Trimming them all consistently to the same length made a huge difference. And helped with my tight chamber problem.

I think the trim system is also removing some brass from the inside of the neck as well.

They are time consuming (I have lots of time to kill so this is a good thing)
They are fussy, I have learned to plunk test each and every cartridge made. Rejects go through the Lee FCD again until they pass.
Its also a whole lot of fun for around a dime apiece, has a wicked "CRACK" to it, and not a lot of recoil.

All in all, tis good clean fun and not terribly expensive. I would like to find a mold about .310 with a longer slimmer nose.
I suspect that would make this whole process go much easier.

[leftiye]

Never seen anything fling brass around like that. Derned expensive, I lose mosta them.

[Fishman]

Dieselpunk style. Did anyone catch that reference in the review?

[frkelly74]

I underappreciated the one I had and let it get away. Dum, Dum, Dum.

[Tackleberry41]

Be nice to find some of this HP thats sold, I have never seen any in a store or at a gun show, its usually out of stock on line. HP does make them a nasty self defense gun. I like 90gr XTP in my 2 in that caliber, but theres always the liability of using such reloads.

[Artful]

Never seen anything fling brass around like that. Derned expensive, I lose mosta them.

Any of the HK roller delay blow back semi/full auto rifles - lethal out the front and the ejection port - I used to find the brass 60-75 feet away.

[Bigslug]

Having handled a few TT-33's, I've always had kind of a Chicken-or-the-Egg question: was the grip angle of the Tokarev intentionally optimized for shooting sitting or kneeling political prisoners in the back of the head, or did the NKVD adopt the practice based on the grip angle of the Tokarev? the gun is ergonomically perfect for whacking someone who just dug and is standing in their own grave, otherwise, it points a mite low. . .

[largom]

There is a 9mm barrel available for the CZ52.

Larry

[GRUMPA]

With what I've read so far about brass being flung into the next county, why not use Starline brass. Dunno about most folks but just around .18ea for new stuff doesn't sound all that bad.

[texaswoodworker]

Having handled a few TT-33's, I've always had kind of a Chicken-or-the-Egg question: was the grip angle of the Tokarev intentionally optimized for shooting sitting or kneeling political prisoners in the back of the head, or did the NKVD adopt the practice based on the grip angle of the Tokarev? the gun is ergonomically perfect for whacking someone who just dug and is standing in their own grave, otherwise, it points a mite low. . .

I think they were just copying parts of the Colt's (Browning's) various designs. It looks an awful lot like a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless with some features of the 1911 added in.

Colt on top, TT-33 on bottom.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Colt_Model_1908_Pocket_Hamerless_AdamsGuns_1783.jp g

http://www.a-human-right.com/pistols/tt33left.jpg

[bruce drake]

Check out the FN Browning 1903 model pistol. A lot of the design is carried over to the Tok 1930/33 models.

Oh, and the Imperial Russian Army and Police used the 1903 in 9mm Long along with 32 ACP versions. The 1903 was a well-liked pistol from the days of the Russian Civil Wars between the Whites and the Reds. Fedor Tokarov just redesigned the 1903 pistol for simply manufacture and repair and the 1930 version was later refitted and reissued as the 1933.

The Swedes even made licensed copies of the FN Browning 1903 pistol for their armed forces.

Bruce

[runfiverun]

the type 99's also have that same profile and grip style.
I was looking at the magazines pictured and wondered if one of the 7.62 magazines would work in my 99's.
one has a block for the 9mm cartridge already in the magazine, and one doesn't as the magazine is already shorter.
of course I can swap the mag from the short one to the long one but not the other way around.

[MtGun44]

+1 on Artful's "roller locked comment" - HK91 throws the brass WAY out there, 20-30 ft
with the port buffer on, more without it. I bought the 9mm bbl for CZ52, worked fine
for the 3-4 mags I used to test it. Never found the milsurp ammo to group better than
8-10" at 25 yds in the CZ52.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I think it would make a fine self defense gun , the only real strikes against it is that it comes primarily heavy guns that may not be as convenient to carry.

for keep in the brass closer , a section of the fabric window screen and some spring clamps , If you have anything to clamp it to like the support of the firing line roof at the range , if you lack a good place to clamp it to some 1/2 or 3/4 inch pvc can make a frame that is light and easy to carry and transport.

[dilly]

I would be interested to read how this compares to the 327 Federal Magnun. They seem like very similar cartridges.

[GhostHawk]

Well I don't CC, but I do keep my CZ-52 with the slide locked back and a full mag in it, ready to go. It is tucked between my side of the couch and my table, out of sight. I don't expect I'll ever need to use it, but if I do, it is there, ready. One quick jerk on the slide and it is ready to go.

[JHeath]

I'm okay with the Tok half-cock, which is really a 1/5th cock. I haven't drop tested it, but looking at the relative angles the rear of the frame/slide covers the hammer spur from a "forward" blow. If the pistol were to fall on the hammer spur at an angle, the force would be "downward" and I don't think the sear or notch would fail in compression. I think the sear pin would have to fail in shear for the hammer to budge, and the angles make this unlikely. All in all I think the half-cock safety is probably as good as carrying a 1911 on full-cock, where a straight drop will try to drive the hammer forward, and puts the sear tips themselves in shear.

Basically a fully cocked SA auto pistol is "energized", and only the sear tips are preventing a discharge (excepting new models with firing pin blocks). Their safeties simply hold the sear in the shallow hammer full-cock notches.

By contrast, a Tok on 1/5th-cock is not "energized", and the hammer is held back by a deep notch and the full length of the sear, both of which would be in compression (not shear) if the pistol is dropped on the hammer on a flat surface.

I've asked before if anybody knows any different, for a fact. Nobody has spoken up so far.

The non-inertial firing pin would discharge if dropped on the muzzle. But the half-cock holds the slide shut via the disconnector, so the bullet would go into the concrete and the pistol wouldn't cycle.

Yes the 7.62x25 is pretty close to the 327 if loaded with heavier bullets. Older 7.62x25 loading data had 110 j-words at 1688fps.

That 7.62x25 data is no longer published because CZ-52s have a weak spot for the roller cutout, and their hardening is inconsistent.

Tokarev strength is not an issue. Clark's 9x23 Win conversions were absorbing loads greatly in excess of .357 mag max loads, with 158s.

Toks are tricky to load for, because the bores are oversize. If you stuff a .313 boolit in a case, it likely won't chamber. I'm dealing with that now, and will probably ream my chamber neck to eliminate turning case necks.

Yes they fling brass. Look at the ejector lug -- it's really long. I'm sure it could be filed back -- carefully -- in small increments -- and presumably not throw brass so far. It's on my list.

In fact, the ejector lug is so long that it's sometimes difficult to ease loaded cartridges out of the chamber. The ejector is trying to flip the case while the bullet is still well inside the ejector port. I have to pull sharply to unload mine.

Triggers are not fine instruments but somewhat tuneable. Not sure if it's possible to eliminate the long take-up, but they can be lightened.

Mine has been a back-burnered project and I'm not sure about accuracy potential. Hickock45 is doing okay for practical accuracy: http://youtu.be/aQtbNzyO0cE

[dubber123]

JHeath, I did a quickie trigger job on my 9mm Tokarev, just reduce and polish the sear contact, tweak the overpowered trigger return spring, and if you like, substitute a lighter hammer spring. Mine with the lighter hammer spring is set at 3.5 pounds, and nicely crisp, my brothers Norinco Tokarev retains the full power main spring, and is just over 4 pounds. Neither was a maximum effort trigger job, just an hour or so of tinkering on each. It makes shooting them much easier.

[JHeath]

JHeath, I did a quickie trigger job on my 9mm Tokarev, just reduce and polish the sear contact, tweak the overpowered trigger return spring, and if you like, substitute a lighter hammer spring. Mine with the lighter hammer spring is set at 3.5 pounds, and nicely crisp, my brothers Norinco Tokarev retains the full power main spring, and is just over 4 pounds. Neither was a maximum effort trigger job, just an hour or so of tinkering on each. It makes shooting them much easier.

Cool, thanks. I reduced sear contact but was probably overcautious with engagement angle. Great to hear your results, 3.5lbs is as good as I would want.

[dtknowles]

Well I don't CC, but I do keep my CZ-52 with the slide locked back and a full mag in it, ready to go. It is tucked between my side of the couch and my table, out of sight. I don't expect I'll ever need to use it, but if I do, it is there, ready. One quick jerk on the slide and it is ready to go.

I don't keep a loaded CZ-52 around but I would be comfortable with one loaded with a round in the chamber and the hammer dropped by the safety once you check it for proper function. The CZ has a firing pin block that prevents the firing pin from moving unless the trigger is pulled. Cocked and locked is good with the CZ as well. I like bigger bullets so I have 9mm barrels for my CZ and load my like a 9 x 25 in 9 x 23 brass. Close to 125 gr. .357 mag loads.

Tim

[Dan Cash]

My CZ52 lays in a desk drawer, close to hand as I type. It is loaded with a 105 grain cast RNFP from an accurate mould that was ordered to feed .32-20s. Once seating depth was established, a light charge of Unique was applied and fired, then increased until the pistol would cycle then increased slightly. The load chronographs at a little over 1200, is reasonabley accurate, does not lead or send brass into orbit. The same load works well in my C96 Mauser with new Wolf springs.

I have not shot anything but paper and steel with these pistols but the same bullet in my .32-20s makes an awfull wound in a porcupine. At close range, I would not hesitate to use the pistol for self defense and expect reasonable results. Remember, though, that the Thompson, LaGuard tests in early 1900 found the caliber (.30 Mauser) somewhat wanting compared to .45 caliber cartridges.

[roverboy]

I don't see why it wouldn't work good with a JHP loaded fast. Or, for the cast guys, a cast flat point loaded a little speedy.

[bruce drake]

There is a huge difference between ball ammo of any caliber and properly stoked hollowpoints or wide meplat cast boolits.

[CNTSHOOTSTRT]

The Tokarev makes an excellent EDC round, as long as you reload. As far as excellent SD bullets Hornady makes a 90 grain XTP (part # 31000) or Lee makes a nice bullet mold (311 and 100 or 110 grain round nose). If you use a wheelweight or similar hardness lead and powdercoat them you have a very nice hard hitting round that will drive deep and also expand. (The following is for the tt variants only, DO NOT run these through a CZ rolling block pistol). With Accurate AAC-9 I am getting right around 1800fps on my chrono with no signs of pressure. I am not going to put the weight of my loads on here but if you PM me I can help you out.

[Outpost75]

Good article on the 7.62x25 in The Fouling Shot, cost-posted here by permission:

Feeding the Пистолет браконьера (Pistolet brakon'year) “Poacher’s pistol;” Tokarev TT33 in 7.62x25mm

C.E. “Ed” Harris

In FS 214-11 I described my introduction to the 7.62x25 cartridge, then firing it in a surplus Czech Cz52. To complete my education, I felt it necessary to test fire also the most common service pistol in this caliber. The TT33 was the principal service pistol issued by the Soviet Red Army during WW2. Based upon Fedor Tokarev’s earlier TT30, its alpha-numeric designators signify the name of its designer (Tokarev), developing arsenal (Tula) and year of introduction.

After evaluating 1000 TT30s in troop trials, the Red Army recommended changes embodied in the TT33. These included machining cartridge guides directly into the receiver to positioning finger extensions of the trigger group to improve feeding, modification of Browning’s swinging link, having the locking rings encircle the barrel to simplify manufacture, and incorporating the hammer and lock work into a removable sub-assembly to ease cleaning and repair.

Modern evaluators feel that a significant drawback to the TT33 was its lack of a positive mechanical safety. Red Army practice was to almost always carry the pistol with its chamber empty. If contact with the enemy was imminent, the chamber could be loaded. Then the user would depend upon the half-cock safety. Wear or damage to the half-cock notch of the hammer could cause a negligent discharge if the pistol was jolted or dropped. A high incidence of suspected ”self-inflicted” injuries with TT pistols caused Soviet investigators to be trained how to distinguish “real” from “staged” negligent discharges at a crime scene. This provided “zampolit” or "political officers" sufficient flexibility to purge “disloyal” personnel, their decision meaning the difference between a subject either being proclaimed a Hero of the Soviet Union, getting sent to the Gulag or being awarded with a bullet to the back of the head. This explains the affection which shrewd NCOs expressed in Orthodox reverence and preference for the, trustworthy наган (revolver)!

While intended to replace the M1895 Nagant revolver, the Tokarev never completely did so during WW2. Red Army practice was to issue Tokarevs to Army officers in front line units and to make Nagant revolvers more readily available to “loyal” soldiers as rewards, and as badges of authority to NCOs, political officers, police and Communist Party officials.

Over 1.7 million TT33s were produced by Soviet arsenals before production ceased in 1954. Variants of the TT33 were produced in Poland, Yugoslavia, Romania and China well into the 1980s. The total output of pistols from all satellite countries exceeded 3 million. Tokarev pistols remain in service in countries under Russian influence and with Russian para military units to this day. The TT is often presented in Russia as an award for distinguished service. It is still carried by court bailiffs, couriers, bank guards, delivery and security services. Its ubiquity makes it especially popular among criminals and poachers.

The 7.62x25 Russian cartridge was adapted by the Soviets from the earlier M1896 7.63mm Mauser round. The first form of this cartridge appeared in 1893 for the Borchardt self-loading pistol. The same cartridge case loaded to higher pressure and velocity became the 7.63 mm Mauser Model 1896, which earned its worldwide reputation during the Great War of 1914-1918. The Bolsheviks were particularly impressed by its astounding penetration, flat trajectory and long-range hitting capability, when used in the M96 Mauser “Broomhandle” pistol.

In 1930, the Soviet Union adopted the Mauser cartridge, under the designation 7.62 mm Type P, for the Tokarev TT-30 and TT-33 automatic pistols, and later for the PPD-40, PPSh-41, and PPS-43 submachineguns. Besides FMJ ball cartridges, API and tracer rounds were loaded by the Soviets during WW2 for submachinegun use. Bullet diameter was .307-.309” and weight 85-88 grains. W.H. B. Smith lists Russian P-Ball at 1378 fps from the TT33 Tokarev pistol, based upon the Soviet Red Army specification of 420 +/- 10 m/s. The US Army Foreign Science and Technology Center, Small Caliber Ammunition guide lists USSR “P Ball” as 500 m/sec (1,640 ft/sec) from the 25cm (9.8”) barrel of the PPSh-41 and 550 m/sec (1,805 ft/sec) from the 28 cm (11”) barrel of the PPSh43. This agrees with modern tests of surplus ammo.

Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935) described the 7.63 Mauser as developing 1300 fps. This was based upon US commercial ammunition loaded to a maximum average pressure of 29,000 psi. WW1 and WW2 German military loads approached 1400 fps from the Mauser M96 with 5.5-inch (14cm) barrel, according to contemporary sources. Hatcher stated that their penetration was eleven 7/8" pine boards, versus 5 boards for the .32-20 Winchester, .32 ACP, .38 Special and .45 Colt. The .45 ACP and .44-40 each penetrated 8 boards while the .38/.44 High Velocity, 9mm Luger, and .38 Colt Auto did nine. Only the .38 Super and .357 Magnum matched the Mauser's ELEVEN boards.

While dimensionally similar, the Tokarev cartridge has a shorter neck and operates at higher chamber pressure, than CIP specifications for the 7.63 Mauser, (36,250 vs. 30,600 psi.) WW2-era and later Soviet "burp gun ammo" is too hot to fire in the “Broomhandle.” Doing so is like feeding the old girl a steady diet of proof loads!

Yugo Privi Parisan (PPU) 7.62x25mm ammo I used in testing approximates Red Army service ballistics, about 1400 fps. Starline warns hand loaders not to use .30 Mauser brass in a Tokarev. This is because its 0.03” longer neck impinges against the origin of rifling in the shorter Tokarev chamber, spiking pressure and tearing case mouths off! Bill Brophy told me many years ago that 7.63 Mauser ammo ran OK in battlefield pickup PPSh41 “burp guns” thanks to sloppy wartime tolerances, when he tested captured Chicom weapons and ammunition in Korea while with the US Army.

Both the Czech and Russian pistol designs are entirely suitable for 7.62x25 loads at loaded to full MAP and are quite strong enough for any sensible load. Sound CZ52, Tokarev and Combloc copies are quite safe with military surplus and commercial ammunition, including the Czech Sellier & Bellot, which in my chronograph tests approaches 1700 fps fired in the Cz52 with 4.7-inch barrel.

In previous testing PPU (Yugo Privi Partisan)FMJ ammo shot to point of aim from my Cz52 at 25 yards. An average of ten 8-shot groups averaged 3.5 inches, with the largest group 4.6" and the smallest 2.9" This is fairly typical accuracy for fixed sight military handguns firing service ammunition. PPU ammo chronographed 1414 fps in my Cz52 and 1421 fps in the TT33. I fired corrosive Romanian “P” ball manufactured by Factory number 22 in 1984 as a benchmark. This attained an impressive 1461 fps from the TT33 pistol and over 1900 fps from a rebarrelled Remington Model 722 with 20” barrel.

Before loading for your 7.62x25 pistol you will want to make a chamber cast. Measure both chamber neck and ball seat diameter. There is wide variation in chamber diameters in the east bloc stuff and groove diameters ranging up to .315. I've never seen a 7.62x25 barrel smaller than .308” groove diameter, but I have seen chamber necks as small as .330” which precluded loading bullets of diameter larger than .308”!

A charge of 5 grains of Bullseye was recommended by Hatcher for the 7.63 (.30) Mauser. It is also listed by Lyman. This starting load won’t cycle 100% in my Cz52 or the TT33 with the Accurate 31-087B, but does with the heavier 31-100T. RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #10 meters an actual weight averaging of 5.3 grains of with current Alliant from my measure and cycles both pistols reliably with either bullet. Velocity approximates PPU at 1400 fps with Accurate 31-087T, or 087B and 1370 fps with 31-100T. It approximates the .30 Mauser at 1300 fps with the 90 grain Hornady XTP. “Magnum pistol” powders : Alliant 2400, H110/W296, and VVN110 all work well in near case capacity full loads. With the 7.62x25’s short neck, neck tension/bullet pull may be inadequate to prevent bullets “telescoping” into the powder space, if bullet fit in the sized neck is not correct. Bullets suited to the M1 Carbine work best when a case full of slower-burning powder provides support to the bullet base, in the same manner as if loading black powder in the .44-40 Winchester. Having the bullet base protrude below the neck-shoulder junction does not cause problems when jacketed bullets are loaded when slower-burning powders such as #2400 are used which fill the case. With fast-burning powders and loading cast bullets recommended practice is to avoid deep-seated bullets to minimize risk of gas cutting and bullet base deformation. Good results are easily obtained with cast bullets optimized for the 7.62x25 such as the Accurate 31-087B and 31-100T.

Based on previous success in the .32 ACP I decided to try Olin AutoComp in loading for the 7.62x25. A charge of 7.4 grains was metered using RCBS Little Dandy measure rotor #9 which meters the 5.0 grain start load with Bullseye. This proved satisfactory giving 1353 fps with the Hornady 86-grain SP and 1450 fps with Accurate 31-100T.

Water jug tests with the Hornady XTP were impressive, blowing the first gallon jug to smithereens in a manner similar to 110-grain .357 Magnum loads. The XTP bullet expands to about .50 caliber, stopping in the third gallon jug, denting its far side, not exiting. This is entirely adequate penetration for a defense load. PPU FMJ loads shoot clear through a 40-inch stack of water jugs and whistled through the trees downrange, as would be expected.

Test firing my Polish copy of the TT33 there were no surprises. Point of impact firing PPU FMJ with its fixed sights was about ½ inch high at seven yards, two inches high at 25 yards, four inches high at 50 yards and “dead on” at 100 yards. Sandbagged, handheld groups were about 3 inches at 25 yards, cast loads a bit better. All manner of cast bullets of various shapes fed reliably, even the Accurate 31-095T which has a ¼” meplat! The advantage of a bottlenecked case! The start load from Lyman, 5 grains of Bullseye occasionally bobbled with 85-87-grain bullets, but cycled reliably with Accurate 31-095T and 31-100T. Increasing charges to 5.3 grains ran every cast bullet tested!!! The RCBS Little Dandy measure Rotor #13 measures about 10 grains of Alliant #2400 which cycled the guns well. Velocity was 1277 fps from the TT pistol with the 93-grain Norma .307” FMJRN, and 1777 fps from the Remington 722. Plainbased cast bullets of 13 BHN alloy did not lead severely, and shot well in the pistol, but did lead badly and shot wildly at over 1800 fps in the 20” rifle. Data are summarized in the accompanying table.

Table 1 – Velocity Test Data for 7.62x25 in TT3 Pistol Vs. 20” Rifle
Handloads in Starline cases with CCI500 primers
Ammunition Description_________________Vel@15ft., Sd, ES n=10
____________________________________TT33, 4.6”_______________Rem. 722, 20”
Romanian Type P Ball, Factory 22, 1984____1461 fps, 27 Sd, 76ES_____1903 fps, 17 Sd, 50 ES
Yugoslav PPU Ball,_____________________1310, 26 Sd, 66ES________1684, 15 SD, 50 ES
Hornady 86-grain SP, 7.4 grs. AutoComp___1353, 20, 71_____________1872, 17, 51
Accurate 31-100T, 7.4 grs. AutoComp_____1450, 16, 50_____________1846, 13,40, barrel severely leaded in rifle
Accurate 31-087B, 5.3 grs. Bullseye_______1433, 28, 71_____________1567, 18, 62, barrel lightly leaded in rifle
Accurate 31-087B, 10.8 grs. #2400________1321, 11, 32____________1821, 11, 27, barrel moderately leaded in rifle
Norma 93-gr. FMJ .307”, 10.8 grs. #2400__1277, 18, 44____________1777, 25, 46, Very accurate in all guns tested.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________

[Texas by God]

I really like the cartridge but not the Tokarev or the CZ52- yes, I've owned both. What I would like is a 1911 .38 Super with adjustable sights and an extra 7.62x25 6" barrel.

[jrayborn]

I too like the cartridge very much. The Tokerev gets a bad rap. I find it accurate and (more importantly) very reliable. A good combo to thwart goblins in body armor...

[GhostHawk]

I have a Cz-52 that came to me as a box of parts. New firing pin and a couple of days of tinkering had it running like a top.

I did reform some .223 blank ammo to 7.62x25 but it was a fair amount of work for not a lot of return.
And my Cz-52 loves to scatter brass way way out.

About the time I got all the kinks worked out I bought 250 rounds of PPU Jacketed Hollow Points.

I need to get mine to the range again. My results closely matched Mr Harris's accuracy wise.

Still a fun gun to shoot with a lot of history. I was born in 52, mine was made in 53. Close enough to give it a little extra sentimental attachment. I sure wish I could hear some of the story's these older guns could tell.

[bkbville]

I always loved my CZ52, until I got a TT33 - just think it feels better.

Now.. if I were to carry one... I'd load around some HDY XTP 90gr pills for carry.

But I wouldn't carry either - there are just too many good low cost CC options out there that are far better in so many ways.

[9.3X62AL]

I have examples of the C-96, the TT-30/33, and a CZ-52 on hand. These are all fun to shoot, and AA-7 powder has become my go-to fuel for these pistols. I do not carry the 30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 Tokarev as a defensive tool, these are sport pistols and varmint whackers for me.

[Texas by God]

A scaled down little bolt rifle in 7.62x25 would be fun as could be.

[Outpost75]

A scaled down little bolt rifle in 7.62x25 would be fun as could be.

Something like this?

220487

[Three44s]

Wolf sold/sells an extra power main spring that reduces how far brass is flung from a CZ 52!

It tamed my “52” a lot.

Three44s

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Probably not my first choice, but no slouch either, especially with the JHP rounds shown in the previous photos. The old 7.63 mm Mauser round was sure an innovation in it's day, and then the Russians souped it up a bit. The bottlenecked cartridge case keeps coming back in such cartridges like the .357 SIG. I've got a pair of CZ 52s, but can't warm up to them. Accurate, reliable, ugly are words that come to mind.

[Traffer]

Dieselpunk style. Did anyone catch that reference in the review?

That one went straight into my vocabulary library index. Thanks for reminding me. Is there a cooler new phrase heard lately? Maybe the one by Kenny on "Auction Hunters" TV show. With his accent, "pop goes the weasel" comes out "Pop go...ooo de weeza". I have been working on that with the accent to use on family and friends.

[Texas by God]

Something like this?

220487You know I like that rifle, but I was thinking more like a 22 bolt action size! But if you decide to part with that 722 please let me know.......

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Outpost75]

You know I like that rifle, but I was thinking more like a 22 bolt action size! But if you decide to part with that 722 please let me know.......

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Not a chance. But there are people who convert the 580 series Remingtons to centerfire, NOT an inexpensive job if done right.

[Traffer]

Something like this?

220487

Gimme, Gimme, Gimme, I want, I want, I want.

[Texas by God]

Not a chance. But there are people who convert the 580 series Remingtons to centerfire, NOT an inexpensive job if done right.
That's exactly the gun I was thinking of- the baby 788.
Fishman- is dieselpunk similar to steampunk? I have no idea what they mean....

[Traffer]

That's exactly the gun I was thinking of- the baby 788.
Fishman- is dieselpunk similar to steampunk? I have no idea what they mean....

I just looked it up:
It would seem that it is a little harder core than steampunk. I like it a lot better than steampunk. They have wore out the phrase steampunk as far as I am concerned. Besides that I think dieselpunk sounds really cool. hah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieselpunk