Just to get something up for discussion

[country gent]

When Paper patching do you perfer a flat base, cup base, hollow base? Wrap with a tail flat overlapped slightly or with a small circle of lead showing in the center ( if this how big a circle)? Reasons why? Just curious and group discussion as to what and why might prove interesting. My paper patch mould is a brooks adjustable cup point I wrap so that the base has a small circle of lead showing about the dia of a no2 pencil lead. I have a form made into my patch board to iron it flat into the cup base. Comes out very flat square and true to bullet and makes a very nice looking bullet.

[Don McDowell]

It seems to me that the flat based bullets have the edge in longrange accuracy. The cupped base bullets are easier to fold the paper over the base and seems to lock it in place. The deep hollow bases such like found on the original sharps bullets are easy to wrap the bases on, but I have recovered bullets with the paper still stuck up in that deep hollow.
I prefer to leave a fairly good sized open spot in the center of the bullet base no matter what type of base.
The hollow and cupped base bullets are harder to cast a good clean base on as that base plug acts as a heat sync and keeping the thing hot can be a problem. Usually cast those bullets at 800 or just above, where I like to cast the flat base, base pour bullets at 725-750.

[BrentD]

Flat is easiest to cast. Cup will shoot the same, if you don't get a wad stuck in there from time to time (unlikely). Fold the patch under with lead showing in the middle. More lead is probably more better, but you won't be able to measure it on the target. A wad of paper in the center of the base is to be avoided at all costs. That WILL be measurable on the target.

[country gent]

SOunds about what Im doing also. I leave a small circle of lead showing but it does occasionally vary in size a little. I cast mine around 750 degrees with a reworked rcbs ladle. SPout is opened up to .205 dia. My cup base on the brooks mould is shallow and casts out very well for me at this tem fill rate. I also pour a full ladle letting the extra run off the side to keep bullet molten as long as possible. My brooks mould also is the vented sprue plate. It seems to work as when I do my part Im getting around 1 1/2-2 moa groups. Though it seems they shoot better with added range.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I wonder what people mean by "cup base" I would understand it as being like the standard Martini-Henry bullet, in which it amounts to a on rounded cavity about half as deep as it is wide, and totaling a shade over half the diameter of the bullet base. I can't see paper lodging in that, and it has the advantage of accommodating the end of the paper, so that a card wad and grease cookie can remain flat.

I picked one up the other day on the almost forgotten battlefield of 1929 in NE Saudi Arabia, and you could see the imprint of the little tail into which some long-dead arsenal loader had twisted the end of the paper.

But do we need that little tail? My first thought on hearing of lead being visible in the centre of the base, would be that the pressure could surely blow the bullet out of the patch. But I revised that instinctive reaction on reflecting that the strength of paper isn't going to prevent that.

[BrentD]

BiS, the cup bases that I've used are about 0.050 " deep in a .45 caliber and left about a 0.060" or slightly thicker rim around the base of the bullet.

In my base, these were swaged bullets, and I could make identical bullets with a flat base, simply be changing out the internal punch on the die set. I did this and shot the bullets side by side. I could not measure any accuracy differences whatsoever.

You don't want, nor need that little tail. It creates bullet imbalances that can't be good. Where a twisted tail might be useful is in some muzzleloader situations. Carrying the bullet, they will be less likely to unwrap themselves. And, when being loaded, they will be less likely to undress themselves as they are being shoved down the bore. But for accuracy, even in muzzleloaders, a folded under patch, with lead showing in the middle trumps all (until we get to really specialized patches like the cross patch system).

Many of my bullets have just the tiniest amount of paper folded under the base. If you can get it in the case, that's all you need.

[Lead pot]

I'm with Brent on the bases. I have flat, cup and dish based bullet punches for my swage presses/dies and I don't see any difference between the cup and flat based bullets. The cup base bullet I think when the Sharps Co. and others made bullets and moulds for their rifles the twisted tail was common and the tail was tucked into the cup so the bullet had more or less a flat surface for the wad to seat against.
A flat based bullet with a twisted tail patch is death to accuracy. I myself like the dish based bullet that has a .050" skirt that I feel makes a better base/wad contact.
A lot of posters call the cup base a hollow base. There is a big difference between them.
Here is an illustration of the different bases. http://www.corbins.com/ppatch.htm#bases

[montana_charlie]

I shoot a flat based bullet with a no-tail patch.
The patch is one inch wide, and my main concern is that it lie in that place on the ogive where the leading edge just gets cut by the rifling.
As I adjust the patch up and down on the ogive (when searching for the right position) the hole on the base grows and shrinks ... but never closes.

Since this winter did not produce any snow drifts suitable for recovering bullets, I have to depend on patch examination to judge whether the position is correct for the alloy used.

My patches are printed out, a page at a time, on an inkjet printer. The pattern includes a line on the patch which shows where the base should be placed.
With the alloy I am currently using, the patch overlaps the base by 0.150". When I was using a softer alloy, that overlap was a bit less because those noses would bump up a little.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Here's what I'm calling a hollow base, it is a nose pour copy of an original Sharps bullet.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/paperpatch.jpg

Here's a cup base bullet
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/Finishedproduct.jpg

If you have a nose pour adjustable mould with both flat and cupped base plugs, you will get more rejects thru visual inspection with the cupped base than with the flat base. When casting that cupped base the little rim is a neat place to trap air bubbles, and then there is the problem of keeping that plug hot. Which is a problem that won't show up when swaging..

[Pb2au]

Very excellent discussion.
I recently was able to replace a Rolling block rifle that was stolen some years ago. As such, I made the decision to follow the path of utilizing paper patches.
As I am still in the education phase, this discussion is of great interest to me. It is helping me build up my mental tool box.
I am a big fan of sharpening my ax as much as I can before I start chopping down a tree.
The use of flat base verse the cup base was much on mind, so this is good.
Many thanks to the contributors

[BrentD]

Don, everyone has a copy of an original sharps bullet and none of them look like that. Nor do they all look like each other. Lots of Sharps bullets out there, I don't think any of them are worth much as target bullets.

[Don McDowell]

That bullet shortened up to 1.1 inches works pretty well in the 44-77 for midrange, and let it out a bit to just short of 1.3 it does well to 800. Whether or not that's a copy of a real sharps bullet, I guess the folks to take that up with would be Bernie Rowles and Steve Brooks, this one is from Old West, and I have another version that Brooks catalogs.
Nose shape makes for a heck of a hunting bullet.

[Lead pot]

Here is an original Sharps .45 cal cup based PP bullet mould and bullets I cast from it.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0207.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0207.jpg.html)http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/uscartridgecomould2.png (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/uscartridgecomould2.png.html)

Here are two Sharps speed bump bullet moulds. Notice the ogive. No bore riding section. I seen them cast at bore diameter.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/Maynardbulletmould.png (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/Maynardbulletmould.png.html)

[Don McDowell]

What diameter do those lil 45 slicks drop from the mould at?

[Lead pot]

Don,

I don't remember what they where off the top of my head. You might ask Bill, he wanted one so I sent one to him.
I can dig and see if I have any more cast.

[Don McDowell]

Well if you find one let me know. That looks like a good little bullet for the 45-70. Might be something fun to have Brooks copy in an adjustable.

[country gent]

Lead pot, DO you remeber what length those bullets are that Don is asking about. I have a brooks adjustable and I can see if it adjusts down that small for Don.

[Don McDowell]

CG , I have the Old West mould (bullets in the bottom picture) that adjusts down to 1.1 inch just fine. They drop at .444 and when loaded on top of 72 grs of OE 2f, wrapped in seth cole 55w wiped with jojoba oil after they were seated in the case, with a wad punched from Gold Fish Cracker box and a dry lubed felt wad, we shot 50 straight with no fouling control other than a blowtube, and shot over 50% hits on the entire Quigley line up, just shooting ladder sights on the Shiloh #3 and havin a ball.
But do much appreciate the thoughts.

[Gunlaker]

I like flat based bullets. I chose them when I first started patching because they were what Kenny W. was using and he seemed to know what he was doing :-). Also, flat base with no cups or patch tails or anything to worry about keeps things simple. As simple as is necessary to get the desired results is best I think.

I have not tried anything else as these bullets shoot very well. I also leave a "circle" of lead showing at the base of the bullet. Generally about 1/2 the diameter of the bullet on a .446" diameter bullet. What Kenny refers to as the Hyde patched technique.

From what I remember of Ned Roberts book on the muzzleloading cap lock rifle, he considered Niedner's patching system to be the pinnacle of paper patching. Niedner's setup was a muzzle loaded chase patched ( so dry patched ) flat based bullet with the paper slightly folded over the base of the bullet. As an aside, that rifle with equipment was recently purchased at auction. Sadly not by me :-)

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Lead pot, DO you remeber what length those bullets are that Don is asking about. I have a brooks adjustable and I can see if it adjusts down that small for Don.

I looked through my bullet box and I don't have one left. I posted this picture once and I got a bunch of requests for a sample. The mould belongs to a friend that let me use it for test loads I wanted to do. I want to say that they where 1-1/8" or 1-3/16" long and weight around 420 gr, but don't hold me to this. It's been a while.
Maybe the rdnck will jump in. He has the last bullet.

[Distant Thunder]

Flat base, 1/3 caliber circle of lead showing, wrapped dry. Seems to work ok so I just keep doing the same thing.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

BiS, the cup bases that I've used are about 0.050 " deep in a .45 caliber and left about a 0.060" or slightly thicker rim around the base of the bullet.

In my base, these were swaged bullets, and I could make identical bullets with a flat base, simply be changing out the internal punch on the die set. I did this and shot the bullets side by side. I could not measure any accuracy differences whatsoever.

You don't want, nor need that little tail. It creates bullet imbalances that can't be good. Where a twisted tail might be useful is in some muzzleloader situations. Carrying the bullet, they will be less likely to unwrap themselves. And, when being loaded, they will be less likely to undress themselves as they are being shoved down the bore. But for accuracy, even in muzzleloaders, a folded under patch, with lead showing in the middle trumps all (until we get to really specialized patches like the cross patch system).

Many of my bullets have just the tiniest amount of paper folded under the base. If you can get it in the case, that's all you need.

That is what I understood by the cup base, and I think it is either a good thing or at worst a totally neutral thing to have, if it is well executed. I agree it is better done by swaging than by casting, and the British government, as well as most other Martini-Henry bullets, were swaged. They were regarded as long range bullets, and nobody wanted a trimmed sprue at the nose. I have an original British coiled brass round in which the paper is simply a cup-shaped coating in a cup-shaped depression, and my battlefield pickup, with the mark of the patch tail, could easily have been from a balloon-head French Société Française des Munitions round, which were more commonly traded in Arabia, and probably overland to the Khyber Pass as well . The only contemporary case I picked up there, i.e. excluding a few 7.62x39 and a WW2-surplus .303, was a 9.5mm. Turkish. My bullet was practically unmarked, on a battlefield made exclusively of rock and sand, so it makes you wonder where it's been.

I think the "tail" is harmless provided that it is crushed well down into that cup while wet, or while the wax is soft, so that it is flattened and its weight is central. Otherwise it wouldn't be, and you could hardly avoid that with a paper lump on a flat base.

[Lead pot]

This is what can happen with a twisted patch tail tugged into the cup base.
I picked these out of the snow bank shot at 130 yards to see what a cup base bullet does with a twisted tail.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0232.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_0232.jpg.html)

[Sharpsman]

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7597/16448847174_faf18b5070_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r4wDcm)Folded patch over end of base. (https://flic.kr/p/r4wDcm) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (https://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

[M-Tecs]

This is what can happen with a twisted patch tail tugged into the cup base.
I picked these out of the snow bank shot at 130 yards to see what a cup base bullet does with a twisted tail.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0232.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_0232.jpg.html)

Like they say a picture is worth a thousand words. The picture says it all.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

:wink: Good shooting too.

KW

[big bore 99]

I'm having real nice results in 45-70 with a square base and starting the patch just ahead of the rifling. That leaves about an 1/8" showing after folding over.