A twinkle of light at the end of the tunnel...........

[Knarley]

Flew some boolits today, I seem to be making some head way, was connecting shots!!!
We still be on the 50 yrd line, but at least we're hitting the paper plate.
Am runnin' a 405 gr. Lyman, with 65 gr/weight FFG Goex with an .040 wad, SPG lube. But the fouling is what I'm gonna call on the horrendous side. I was having to clean the barrel between shots. The fouling was so thick, it would come out of the barrel in a pile! Crud from one end to the other, major fouling in the breach area, had to scrub it out between each shot, otherwise shot all over the place. I'm using CCI standard large rifle primers.
The boolits are being crimped just short of the first driving band, so the projectile is not touching the lands. My blow tube is AWOL at the moment, but that will change soon. I was wiping/cleaning with Balistol out of a spray can with flannel patches. I was using the balistol because that is all I had with me at the time. I would normally be using either windshield washer fluid or a Balistol water mix.
Any ideas on the massive fouling? My muzzle loader doesn't burn that bad.

Thanks,
Knarley

[Don McDowell]

Take that powder charge to a full 70 grs and the fouling should get a bit better to deal with.

[Gunlaker]

You might get less fouling with a heavier bullet if you have any. You can test this in the extreme case by firing off a shot with no bullet, just case full of powder you'll get really horrible fouling :-)Is it pretty dry at your location right now? Hot and dry the air makes for harder fouling and greater accuracy degradation.Chris.

[Boz330]

Heavier boolit, make sure you have the boolit up against the lands to build back pressure for a cleaner burn. You don't mention the compression but Goex usually requires quite a bit. Just add more wads if the boolit isn't sitting on the wad because it is seated to deep. I haven't loaded Goex in a long time but it seemed that I had to have more than .300 compression before I got a reasonable burn, .500 on my 38-55. If your not going to shoot competition a duplex load will solve your problem.

Bob

[country gent]

WOrk up adding powder in 2 grn increments changing nothing else this adds compression to the load. a little more compression may help some. The lyman bullet may not be carrying enough lube for hot dry conditions also. If the load isnt burning effiently then the blow tube isnt going to cure that but may help with the moisture keeping fouling soft and workable. Getting the compression charge balanced for optimum performence helps also. H heavier bullet seats deaper into case increasing compression also. The added wieght may help with burning also. More resistence there. Diffrent lubes may be better also.

[montana_charlie]

You can keep your 65 grain charge and increase compression to cause a more efficient burn, but you will have to fill up part of the case with 'something new'. That could be a grease cookie (about .2" thick) under the bullet.

I say .2" because that is about the minimum amount needed to start getting near a 'clean burn' with Goex.

Yeah ... you could use .2" of wads, but the lube should help keep the fouling soft.

CM

[Wayne Smith]

If you are shooting a 45/70 the USArmy used a heavy crimp with the 405gr boolit because it was not heavy enough to acccomplish a complete power burn before it moved. The 520gr boolit was. More resistance is needed.

[Toymaker]

You're likely not getting enough compression on your powder. Remember, with your muzzle loader you really press that roundball tight against the powder. Same thing applies to a black powder charge in a cartridge. Just my thought. I tried 65 grains FFg and, like you, got LOADS of crud, fouling and poor accuracy. Tried 70 grains FFg and the crud disappeared, fouling was controllable and accuracy was ok. Powder compression was 0.28 inch, cardboard wad, newspaper disk, bullet. Went to 68 grains FFg, didn't move the compression die, cardboard wad, newspaper disk, bullet and got 5 touching holes at 100 yards. Damp patch wipe between shots, 405 grain bullet, 0.002 inch over bore, and Darr's lube. Fire-formed cases, cleaned but not sized and no crimp. Start with your OAL so the bullet just engages the rifling. Then back off 0.001 and 0.002 inch to see if accuracy improves. BTW - you don't need a rifle primer to set off black. Your percussion cap isn't that powerful and a flintlock sure isn't. Switch to a large pistol primer. Some BPCR shooters even put a newspaper disk over the primer before loading the powder. Swiss doesn't take as much compression, I'm told. But I've never gotten it to work for me. BP is so much more fun, and cleans up much easier than this smokeless stuff. --- Keep yer powder dry ---

[Knarley]

Ran some with 70 gr/weight FFG Goex at the same time I ran the ones with 65 gr powder. I didn't mention the 70 grainers because they shot so poorly. The fouling wasn't quite as bad, but I'd hate to live on the difference.
The grouping, if you want to call hitting the back stop a group, would be fine for a 10 ga. for geese @ 50 yrds.
I'd guess I'm compressing the charge 3/8 of an inch, to be more exact I'd have to measure a before and after. I have a couple ways to go,I can seat the boolits a little deeper, with more compression & a heavier crimp or miove the boolit back out to the lands, but that didn't shoot well either. I do have a mould for a 500 grain postel-like boolit from LEE I could try,seated as deep as I can, or out to the lands.
Would going to FFFG Graf & Sons be an option? I do have that on hand as well as FFFG Goex I believe. I'll save the APP for when I get desperate.

I think I have it narrowed down to the gun either doesn't like the powder, or the charge. The alloy of the boolit or the boolit. The compression height, or depth of seating or the gun just don't like the nut behind the butt plate.
Either way, I'm just on the verge of great shooting:wink:

Knarley

[Gunlaker]

I shoot a lot of FFFg Express and I don't think that there is really a big difference in fouling between the various granulations.

Chris.

[Knarley]

I shoot a lot of FFFg Express and I don't think that there is really a big difference in fouling between the various granulations.

Chris.
Well, the rumor is that it burns cleaner.....................
If it really does who knows. I'll have to try some, I'm all set up, I'll do a study!!! HAR-HAR!!!
This aught to be a hoot............

Knarley

[bigted]

I see ... er don't see ... a couple possibility's ...

you didn't say what diameter boolit you are using. gotta go with the basics and proceed slowly to narrow down your problem area ... to wit ;

- slug the barrel to determine the bore and groove of your barrel.

- take a cleaned fired case from your chamber and open up [slightly flair] the mouth to be able to determine the inside diameter of your fired case.

- take this diameter from your fired case and match this to your boolit diameter ... [the groove/bearing surface of the boolit that is] ... you will need the nose to be able to lodge in the barrel throat without interference even with a slightly [ very slightly] fouled bore.

- your chamber tells you about what grease groove boolit it wants to start out with ... if your case is measuring out at .461 for example then ... never load a grease groove boolit that is any smaller in diameter then this ... of soft 20 to 1 lead/tin mix or softer.

- this will do 2 things ... 1- will begin your boolit without any gas cutting ... and 2- the boolit will never have to expand into any part of your chamber/throat ... which gives it the added bonus of no leading [as long as this diameter boolit is not much more then 2 or 3 thousandth's larger then the groove diameter of the barrel] and gives the lead boolit nowhere to go but up the barrel without adding the task of having to swell into the chamber/throat to seal before getting the full burst of energy from your powder charge.

- speaking of powder charge ... [im with Don and the others] ... up the charge to as much powder as you can get to fit under a seated boolit with the minimum compression of .200 of an inch which should be compressed with a compression stem [not the boolit].

- the cleanest load I ever shot in my 38-55 was a full 55 grains of 2F GOEX and the compression took 2 compression jobs to do it without bulging my WW cases ... I would put 27.5 grains powder in first and compress this amount first ... then the other 27.5 grains and compress it enough to seat my boolit. this little trick I just had to try and it burned the cleanest of any straight BP loads I ever shot ... wernt the exact best in accuracy ... but very clean

more then likely your current boolit diameter is not correct and you succeeded in leading your barrel ... if so make entirely sure that all lead is cleaned out before you commence any further shooting ... it will only get worse as time goes by if it isn't completely lead free.

these guys can and will give the straight dope on what to try and change when running into problems ... they [many of them that is] helped me along in so many ways as to befuddle the mind ... sometimes the lessons were hard to hear and I had to ask several times to allow em to soak into my hard shell of a head ... but they mostly are a great group of fella's and generally will aid you in your addiction to this wonderful new addiction.

[Knarley]

I know you guys are "Straight shooters" (pun intended). I only have so much to work with. From what I've heard so far is the 405 isn't the best choice. I do have a mould for a 500 grainer that I'm gonna try, we'll see how it flies.

Knarley

[Don McDowell]

Lots of luck with that Lee 500 gr bullet, it doesn't do very well when you get past 200 yds, and it really goes to pot if it's windy.
Saeco 645 bullet is a good one for the 45-70, it shoots well from powder burn close to 1000 yds.

[Knarley]

My fired cases measure .457-458 ID.....487 OD. The bore is .457/.449 The gun has a 1:18" twist with a 34 " BBL. in Cal. 45-70.
My sizing die sizes @ .457 which I see will be no good, as is the 405 gr. Lyman or the 500 gr. LEE moulds I have.
The Lee sizers go from .457 then jump to .501. I am not familiar with the other brands of sizers, but they look spendy.
I understand that a new boolit mould is in order, but at this time I admit I'm at a loss as of which way to go. The Saeco 645 isn't in my Midway catalog. If the new mould drops boolits a bit large, the sizer problem will be moot, so that may not be a problem.
So........... out of the Midway catalog, there is Saeco, Lyman & RCBS moulds.
I will mostly be shooting to 200 yards, and on occasion to 700. I guess I'll be needing one mould good for both...............any suggestions on which to start over with? I'm gonna have to buy one any way, I might as well make an informed purchase this time around. Seeing as I'm batting 1000 so far:killingpc.

Thanks,

Knarley

[Sharpsman]

My fired cases measure .457-458 ID.....487 OD. The bore is .457/.449 The gun has a 1:18" twist with a 34 " BBL. in Cal. 45-70.
My sizing die sizes @ .457 which I see will be no good, as is the 405 gr. Lyman or the 500 gr. LEE moulds I have.
The Lee sizers go from .457 then jump to .501. I am not familiar with the other brands of sizers, but they look spendy.
I understand that a new boolit mould is in order, but at this time I admit I'm at a loss as of which way to go. The Saeco 645 isn't in my Midway catalog. If the new mould drops boolits a bit large, the sizer problem will be moot, so that may not be a problem.
So........... out of the Midway catalog, there is Saeco, Lyman & RCBS moulds.
I will mostly be shooting to 200 yards, and on occasion to 700. I guess I'll be needing one mould good for both...............any suggestions on which to start over with? I'm gonna have to buy one any way, I might as well make an informed purchase this time around. Seeing as I'm batting 1000 so far:killingpc.

Thanks,

Knarley

"any suggestions on which to start over with?"

Yeah! A BACO PP Money Bullet of .446" diameter and learn to shoot PP!!

[Don McDowell]

I'm pretty well convinced that better than buying moulds until you find something that works, it's better to buy bullets until you find something that works, then buy the mould for that bullet.
www.bigskycastbullets.com (http://www.bigskycastbullets.com) has a decent selection of proven bpcr bullets.

[country gent]

Lyman 457125 is usually a goog performer. Lyman 457xxx 535 grn postell has also been a good performer for many. I just purchased a old west made 547 grn shilouette mould that is showing alot of promise. Also have a brooks PP adjustable mould. Brooks, Accurate, will make what you want also. There are alot of good desighns out there. Buffalo arms has a large selection of lyman, RCBS, Saeco, thier line of moulds also. I recently bought a lyman 457193?? 420 grn bullet mould but havent shot it yet. Decent looking bullet though casts good

[Gunlaker]

Knarley, that is a pretty big outside case dimension. Given that most .45-70 brass is around 0.011" thick, the diameter of the inside of the case is likely larger.

My Shiloh in .45-70 has a chamber that is 0.481" if I remember correctly. A .459" bullet slip fits in Starline brass quite nicely.

In my experiences with fat chambered rifles, going with a large diameter as cast bullet will likely help. Often the biggest diameter that will fit your fired cases is a good place to start.

Have you tried not sizing at all? Will your 500 gr bullets slip into your cases when unsized?

It's actually ok if the bullet is larger than groove. I have a C. Sharps that has a fat chamber and shoots well with a .460" bullet, even though the grooves are .458".

Good luck,

Chris.

[Knarley]

I'm pretty well convinced that better than buying moulds until you find something that works, it's better to buy bullets until you find something that works, then buy the mould for that bullet.
www.bigskycastbullets.com (http://www.bigskycastbullets.com) has a decent selection of proven bpcr bullets.

That sir, is a good idea.
Any advise for a "First time buyer?"
What would be a good starting weight?

Knarley

[Don McDowell]

Depends on what you want to do. We have had great accuracy and easy shooting with the Saeco 645 bullet, it weighs 480 grs. Have also shot some of the Lyman bullets that come out of the mould at 480ish grs. The 500 gr government bullet is seldom a wrong bullet, and the postel. The 480 gr bullets offer less felt recoil and that makes for more comfortable shooting, that leads to an improvement in accuracy.
So I guess I took the long way around the barn to say start with something that weighs 480ish grs.

[powderburnerr]

the saeco 1881 is a good bullet for your needs ,, simple and easy , and comes in two sizes, it is excellant at 200 and will do good at 700 , it will also be a super choice for hunting if you ever do that , the lyman postell is also a good bullet , but is a more dedicated target round, either of these styles are good ,and are available in saeco moulds , which in my opinion are a little better to work with than the others,
your 18 twist will better handle a 500 and up bullet,than a 405..

[Lead pot]

Knarley I just read all of the posts on this topic and I see your having a terrible problem with that 405 gr bullet in your 18 twist rifle.
Last week I was given 250 rounds loaded with the 405 gr Lyman flat nosed bullet. 1/2 where loaded with black 2F goex and the others where loaded with different smokeless loads. He said I could not get this rifle (a Browning BPCR) to shoot so I sold it.
Well I pulled the smokeless rounds and pitched the powder and the bullets went in the scrap can to be re melted. I shot some of the blk loads and he was right I had a hard time staying on a 200 yard SR target so I pulled those bullets and checked the powder load and it was 68 grains and the 2F might have been what he used.

What I would suggest for you to do.
Consider getting the Lyman postell bullet mould http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=160629 . If I was to have just one mould for a .45-70 it would be the Lyman 457-132. It is a very good shooting .45 caliber bullet. The reason I would suggest this bullet is, it has a short bore riding section on the ogive compared to a Government round nosed bullet that comes in contact with a lot of dry alloy to smear the bore. The Gov. bullet is a good one in the 500 gr weight but I think before getting a long bore riding nosed bullet before you learn a good fouling control practice you will be better served with a bullet like the postell. NEI also makes a copy of the original Ideal 132 postell with still the narrow base driving band unlike what the copies now use. It was a better design then the thick base band now used by custom mould makers.
Use a good lube and pan lube this bullet from the lyman mould if you decide to get one. They are not usually the roundest bullet from that mould but it will exit the muzzle round when you shoot it and it will hit if your aim is good.

This is how I would load it to find what compression powder load will work the best. It will usually only take 21 rounds to find what is going to need just a little tweaking.

First of all, with the bullet you been using. I will stress this!! clean that barrel. Get all of the lead out. If you think you have that barrel clean, push a tight dry cotton patch through and if you see any gray streaks on that cotton patch, that barrel is not lead free. You will never get it's potential accuracy from a lead fouled bore.

Next prep you cases.
Use all of the same manufacture cases like Rem, Win, Starline. Just make sure all cases are the same brand.
Size them all the same. Make sure they are the same length. I like to just use a taper crimp die for sizing the case if the brass has been fired in this rifle. I do not like full length sizing and I don't use a taper crimp with the bullet seated in the case. I don't want the bullet shank swaged down crimping a bullet while it's in the case. just my way.
When you run through the taper crimp die you just size it down enough so you have a little tension on the bullet when you seat it. I flair the case mouth just slightly with a cone shaped expander I made that will open a slight flair to let the bullet seat smooth with out stripping lead of the bullet base and shank. With a chamfered case mouth you can seat that bullet with .002" neck tension. No need to crimp the bullet this way and don't use a roll crimp for a single shot rifle.

Start with one primer, Win LRP, CCI or what ever and load up a ladder load of three rounds from zero compression and use a .060" wad over the powder and seat a bullet on the wad. Use the same wads for the whole test loads.
Increase the next three rounds by 2 grains and compress with a compression die.
Do this 2 grain increase to a point where the compression reaches about .400". Not much need to go beyond this only to tweak up the loads if this is what you find your accuracy at.

When you shoot your test loads, use a good fouling control procedure. Long slow exhales through the blow tube if you use one.
Use the same amount of blows to stay consistent. You can check the bore conditions when you use the BT by pushing a dry patch through. If it does not come out moist your fouling is not under control. You need to try something else or wipe.
I don't like to wipe the bore using greasers. It takes away the lube the previous bullet left behind. If you do wipe, I would rub a light coating of bullet lube on the ogive that might come in contact with the bore. Not much lube, about what you find on a .22 rimfire bullet. It's enough to help the dry lead nose that comes in contact with the bore.

If you follow this you will find a good starting point with just a few rounds fired.

Kurt

[country gent]

Bufallo arms has a selection of bullets cast from 20-1 and SPG lubed also . I agree with DOn to buy some bullets and test then buy the mould. Even sending a few bullets to a custom mould maker is cheaper than buying 3 or for moulds to find what you want. I Have the lymann 457132 535 grn postell mould here ( mines been converted to nose pour and drops around 528 grns now), The lymann 457125 520 grn round nose ( nose is 448-449 dia on mine). Also an Old West mould for 547 grn "shilouette" style. I would be willing to send you a small batch of each for just shipping cost of a small flat rate box. Mine are 20-1 sized .459 and libed with SPG lube. PM me and let me know

[Knarley]

Depends on what you want to do. We have had great accuracy and easy shooting with the Saeco 645 bullet, it weighs 480 grs. Have also shot some of the Lyman bullets that come out of the mould at 480ish grs. The 500 gr government bullet is seldom a wrong bullet, and the postel. The 480 gr bullets offer less felt recoil and that makes for more comfortable shooting, that leads to an improvement in accuracy.
So I guess I took the long way around the barn to say start with something that weighs 480ish grs.

OK, you had me scared there for a while, I thought that Saeco 645 was 645 grains. I was just about done right there.

Going shopping @ Buffalo arms sounds like the thing to do. I forgot one can BUY bullets, what a concept!
I'll make sure the gun is lead free, I always use flannel patches, and do keep an eye out for leading.
As soon as I'm able to get back to the range, I'll let ya'll know how things go.
I appreciate all yous guys advice, for I am yet a babe in the woods.

Regards,
Knarley

[Knarley]

Went to "Buffalo" and one can't tell by the descriptions who made the moulds for the boolits they are selling. Go figure.
Other than weight, what does one look at/for when buying a mould?
I know that 'Wow, that looks cool" don't work too well.
There is a lot of info to absorb, sometimes it takes a while to "soak in".

Thanks,
Knarley

[country gent]

Looking at the bullets and mould catalougs you can find close or the same bullet. It takes some looking and searching. Talking to Buffalo arms they may tell you what mould it is also

[Knarley]

Looking at the bullets and mould catalougs you can find close or the same bullet. It takes some looking and searching. Talking to Buffalo arms they may tell you what mould it is also

Tried that, the gentleman on the other end was having a hard time figuring it out, then the phone line broke up.

[Lead pot]

Give John a call and tell him what you want. He will know exactly what your talking about. He is a shooter and his bullets don't take a back seat to anyone else's. They are first rate. http://www.bigskycastbullets.com/contact.php