Flintlock Flinch, Need Help

[huntingsgr8]

Well I'll admit it.....I am a flincher. I've tried for almost two years to get rid of it, but I can't seem to manage, every time that flash of sparks goes off in my face I flinch, it's not the sound of the flint striking the frizzen, it's not the sight of the flint moving forward, it's the d@mn3d flash. I really like my Hawken and would hate to trade it in for a caplock version, but this is ridiculous. Do any of you have tips for eliminating the accursed flinch?

[duckey]

Close your eye(s) after sighting in and just before pulling trigger.

[dondiego]

Sounds like you might be having a delay in the priming setting off the main charge. It should be instantaneous.

[wild thing]

You are supposed to concentrate on the front sight so that you do not notice the flash. That said , when you figure it out please let me know the secret. I have been flinching for years. John

[mdr8088]

That's a hard thing to do. I've only shot my Dad's flintlock he left me a few dozen times, and every time I blink. Something about the flash right close to my face. I've seen a lot of people shooting flintlocks and most of them at least blink. Your not alone. A guy at the range one time told me to wear the welding goggles you get with cutting torches. You can still see thru them a little. He said shoot some with them and when you don't blink, then try safety glasses. It sounds weird but even with my transitions lenses darkened out it helps. Of course, I get frustrated when it don't go boom and the deer laughs at you, so I use 209's to hunt with. It's like people that are afraid of heights, some of them are ok if there's a railing at the edge. Weird.

[waksupi]

Be sure to use as little priming as possible. That will give you fastest ignition. My locks are so fast, I don't have time to flinch, unless I really work at it. By the time I see the smoke coming out the side, my ball is gone. Lots of trigger time, too. The more you shoot, the less you should be noticing the flash at all.

[pietro]

.

There might be less "flash" if the priming charge is reduced to less then 1/2 pan depth; or maybe switch to FFFg from FFg (or vice-versa).

I don't recall even seeing the flash from my rocklocks - only smoke; but then I only shoot it at a range for a few shots (to check the zero).

The rest of my shots are taken while hunting.



.

[ejcrist]

Use 4F if you ain't already, only put enough in the pan to make it work which is usually no more than a squirt from a brass pan charger, and like Wild Thing said, stay focused on the clear tip of the front sight post only (nothing else should be in focus). Also what Waksupi said is very true - lots of trigger time. The ball should be long gone by the time you blink.

[doc1876]

I know this will sound strange, but after I took up skeet shooting and learned how to follow through with the bird, I actually got better with flint shooting.

[Blammer]

less powder in the pan and it will help a bunch. It did for me.

[kens]

it sounds like you are flinching regardless, it is just the flintlock seeming it is magnified.
When you are fully cured of flinching, the flintlock no longer matters.

If you have a misfire on your hawkins, I will bet you would notice your flinch.

Practice, practice, and more practice

[Gtek]

Load bore, pick hole, pan 1/3 full outboard with 4F, close frizzen, full cock, boom. Maybe a piece of card stock pinned to a hat bill? Too much fun to give up!

[oldracer]

Several things to try, one is attaching a "musket flash guard" as sold by The Possible Shop or make one your self. Next is breathing and front sight concentration. What I had to do was use three smooth sort of deep breaths as I bring the rifle down from over top the target while watching the front sight line up with the target and the breath is out as I squeeze the trigger. I do not try to steady hold on the target as my arthritis prevents that so I do what a lot of cartridge shooters do. I used up about two tins of #11 caps practicing in the garage (make sure not loaded) with a 22LR shell on top of the barrel until it did not roll off. My set trigger is about a 1 OZ break so all I have to do is touch it on all my rifles, even the one I got from Johnson1942 with a single set trigger but I was flinching and also pulling to one side. The practice cured it.

Good luck

[Maven]

"...pan 1/3 full outboard with 4F...." ...Gtek

Actually, Gtek, Larry Pletcher (Pletch on some forums) demonstrated ignition was faster with the priming powder banked toward the touchhole. His data are repeatable, btw.

[huntingsgr8]

Thanks for the suggestions, sadly I've already tried many of them. When I first started out I know for certain that I was using wayyyyy too much powder, I'd fill the pan until it was level and occasionally more. After reading an article by Chuck Hawks I reduced my priming charge, and began to prick the charge too, it helped a lot and made a very noticeable difference in ignition time. As for me just flinching with any gun well, I seriously doubt that, off hand I can regularly print 2.5 inch groups at 50 yards with a my .22, granted it has a 4X scope, the only gun I own that I know I flinch with is my 535 Mossberg with 3.5" Black Clouds, after shooting that thing for a year even my .300 Win just feels like a tap on the shoulder. Thanks for all the tips, maybe I just have to man up and just practice with priming charges until I get the hang of it.

[OverMax]

Once you develop a flinch. It's hard to overcome that habit. My suggestion: Focus extremely hard on you're tunnel vision ability at the very moment of your triggers squeeze. Pay absolutely no attention to your peripheral vision. If this technique doesn't work for you after a period of time. Good bye flinter. Hello cap lock.

[dondiego]

3.5 inch Black Clouds are the source of your problem.

[tddeangelo]

I may catch some grief for this, but here's what helped me when I got flinchy.

I also shoot a bow, and what helped me there was shooting with back-tension. Bear with me.

With a bow, and when using a release, you anchor and aim, then squeeze your back muscles and pull into the back wall (where the draw stops). Trigger finger (wrist release) lays over the trigger, and does NOT pull/squeeze/etc. It just lays there. Squeeze back muscles and continue to pull into the back wall...i.e. back tension. Eventually, this causes the trigger to trip and the arrow is gone.

I've read other places of people doing something somewhat similar with a flintlock. My custom gun has a single trigger, which tolerates this a tiny bit better than a double set trigger, but it would work regardless, I think.

So, the next time I was out with the flintlock, I got on target, snugged the gun into my shoulder, curled my finger in front of the trigger, and began adding pressure into my shoulder with the stock by pressing the rifle back into me tighter, little by little. This eventually triggered the gun and the shot went perfectly. No flinch. About 100 more shots like that, and I lost a ton of the anxiety that came from shooting the flintlock, and my shooting was improved immensely.

I'm sure there's a hundred reasons why I shouldn't do any of that, but it worked like a charm for me.

[waksupi]

Another thing to help, cut a wooden replacement for your flint, to practice dry fire. Dry fire ten times a day, every day.

[tddeangelo]

Forgot to mention that. I did a lot of dry fire too. I had read that a rubber eraser would be a good flint substitute. It wasn't. The stupid thing came apart in about 15 dry fires.

I used the ends of wood clothespins and they worked great. The more times you trip the trigger without a flinch, the better. It helps to give yourself a target for dry fire, too. I put a small spot of painter's tape on the wall as an aim point. Make sure your sights don't come off target through the fall of the hammer (I know that's not the proper term, but the correct one often gets hit by forum language filters), and hold fast on that target for at least a second or two to encourage good follow through. It really helps.

[huntingsgr8]

Yeah, I've done a lot of dry fire too, with a flint in the jaws. It doesn't bother me, at first it did a little bit, but it left quickly. The powder's flash is my issue, I feel the need to brace myself for it when I see it by blinking, which 9/10X brings me off target.

[fouronesix]

When I go though the safe rotation and come to the flintlocks I too have to concentrate on not flinching. I'm well used to heavy recoil and it seems easy to hold with a follow through during all the clacks, thunks, psssts and different feeling vibrations that go on during a flintlock firing cycle. But it's the pan/touch hole flash that, to me at least, is the most difficult to deal with. Most people I think are very sensitive about protecting their eyes, so it's a natural response.

I do best by using a good pair of shooting (safety) goggles. It seems to help psychologically and that is a major part of all shooting.

[waksupi]

Forgot to mention that. I did a lot of dry fire too. I had read that a rubber eraser would be a good flint substitute. It wasn't. The stupid thing came apart in about 15 dry fires.

I used the ends of wood clothespins and they worked great. The more times you trip the trigger without a flinch, the better. It helps to give yourself a target for dry fire, too. I put a small spot of painter's tape on the wall as an aim point. Make sure your sights don't come off target through the fall of the hammer (I know that's not the proper term, but the correct one often gets hit by forum language filters), and hold fast on that target for at least a second or two to encourage good follow through. It really helps.

Good point on follow through. I try to remain on target 2-3 seconds after hammer fall.

[bob208]

take a soda can cut out a pice and flatten it slide id down between the stock and barrel right at the lock. don't block the touch hole. it is a blinder so the flash does not come in your line of sight. after awhile you will be able to do with out it.

[bosterr]

I met my Donna 5 years ago, she's now my fiancé. She wanted to learn to shoot a handgun and never tried it before (no bad habits yet). I thought of this drill and it worked better than we could imagine. This process takes a "helper". She started with a scoped contender, 357 mag 10" SSK barrel with a very light trigger. She started off using sandbags to take the fatigue factor out trying to hold the gun off-hand. She learned to rest the gun without torqueing and putting any lateral pressure on it to spoil the shot. After each of these sessions, stop, and don't try to shoot anything any other way and only shoot again using this same procedure.

I told her to listen for me to say "squeeze" at least 4 times before the gun fires. After every "squeeze" hold that much trigger tension and wait for the next "squeeze". Sometimes it would fire at 4 "squeeze" and sometimes at 3. A much heavier trigger will cause the subject to need to breathe. With the scope on this barrel, she could aim at a bullet hole for a target. After a short while she told me, "I don't know when it will go off"!!! She was already shooting quarter sized groups at 25 yds. by this time. I jumped up and down and did cartwheels and gave her a big kiss and told her "That's it, now you know how it's done"! This was in the spring of 2010 and she got her first whitetail doe with my 14" 44 mag TC Contender that deer season. She liked my 14" 309 JDJ barrel better, so the next 4 years she filled her tags with that. 5 deer in 5 years, 2 were nice bucks. This last season her buck shot was a laser measured 120 yds. shooting off her knees.

On the rare occasion the chamber's empty or a bad primer, there is no flinch what-so-ever. She's tuned out flinches forever.

I tried this method with a 60 year old buddy who had a terrible flinch. Same gun, same sandbag set-up. I let him shoot his best group at 25 yd. and got a baseball sized group. Then we tried it using my drill. He went from baseball sized group to 1 inch the very next run. He lives some distance away, so we couldn't "finish" him and I'm sure he reverted back to flinching. He was surprised that gun shot so well.

Now, Donna refuses to shoot any kind of rifle or muzzleloader, she wants to do it all with her scoped Contender or scoped S & W 686 revolver. I have a spare TC Hawken 50 Cal flinter in the safe with open sights. I keep trying to talk her into our October antlerless season. Maybe this year.

I know I'm biased, but I'll stand her up against any man and bet my poke on her.

I can't see why this method shouldn't work with any other kind of firearm.

[Toymaker]

Good info above. I've helped a couple of flinters overcome their flinch, but it took some time. AND had to be repeated on occasion.
First, if they were right handed I'd put some masking tape on the right side of the right lens of their shooting glasses. I'd only leave enough open space so they could see the sights. The flash is mostly obscured. Do the opposite for lefties.
Second, use 4F priming powder and reduce the charge to almost nothing. It doesn't take much. I've gone so far as to grind 3F into a dust (just a little at a time) and just use a sprinkle.
Third, you load the rifle and hand it to a buddy. He primes it, or doesn't. You don't know. Then he hands it back to you to shoot. Since you've tried many of the suggestions so far I believe you're anticipating the flash.

[tddeangelo]

The "squeeze" method above is similar to something I neglected to mention.

I read an excellent book by Jim Owens about trigger control that is absolutely pure gold for any shooter to read. That book made me a better shooter almost instantly. He talks about "stacking" weight on the trigger, doing almost exactly what was described above with each successive "squeeze" command. He did it in two stages..... Learning the trigger well enough to hold about 1/2 the pull weight on the trigger, pause, then press through the second "half" of the pull weight.

Because I shoot this way, that's probably why I don't get too wound up if a trigger isn't super light, and also why I prefer single triggers on flintlocks. It takes a fair bit of practice to get good at it, but when I talked about back tension shooting with the flintlock, that's in effect what it did. Let me stack weight smoothly.

In in the end, I think whatever method is used has to deal with the human tendency to punch the trigger and try to "snatch" the shot as the sights move around the target. Target panic is not just an archer's issue.

[KCSO]

First like Waksupi said get you a wooden flit for practice...
Then you need to visualize doing it right not doing it wrong. Close your eyes and sit somewhere comfortable and SEE yourself shoting, see yourself throught the loading process and bring the gun up and SEE only the sights as you fire. Do this for a few days before you go to the range and make your MIND control what your body wil do. Think the ball into the target. That saidI use to flinch but finally beat it by SEEING myself do it right. My father in law shot a flinter for the first time and shot 10x's. I said doesn't the flash bother you? he said I don't watch the flash i watch the sights!

[tddeangelo]

Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent. :)

If a shooter practices shooting and includes a flinch every time, well, guess what just got made permanent?

So the advice to visualize and practice the process properly in dry fire is spot on.....perfect practice makes perfect.

[oldracer]

I logged back in since I wanted to clarify what I wrote below. I use Doug as a coach and had him watch me and since is a guy older that me with several forms of serious diseases he has little patience for silliness and I caught some hell but he helped me a huge amount. I see him several times a year barely but always try to get help. Another local shooter is Eric Keel who is also a winning Schuetzen nut and he is nearly unbeatable with any muzzle loader. I ask him to watch and evaluate me also and I actually bettered him once, but only by a point! A coach my help........

In my post I mentioned trying to hold for a long time, relative to other things. I tried to do this in the beginning and found the longer I tried to hold the sights on target, the worse my "flinch" or "jerk" or what ever it is called became. When I had my mentor show me how he shot it came out as I mentioned before. First I use my second finger to set the trigger unless I do it before I put a cap on. This is to not "stress" my trigger finger. The he showed me to stand in the same foot position each time and align the gun pointing slightly over the target with front and rear sights aligned. Start lowering it while doing the breathing and come into target as the last breath goes out. With a set trigger you should only have to touch the front one to go boom. In the case of a single or non set trigger then there will be some slack to take up and the dry fire will help that or getting the feel for a 2# pull like I had with my original 45-70 Rolling Block and my Gibbs M/L. When switching from set to non set it takes me an hour or two of dry fire to adjust myself. Keep trying and don't give up!

[John Boy]

Buy some Swiss Null-B and use that for your flash powder. The grains are much smaller than FFFFg

[huntingsgr8]

Thanks for all of the suggestions, I'll be trying them this weekend hopefully. Yeah I probably am just anticipating the flash. I'll keep going at it, I'll have to get it sooner or later...

[waarp8nt]

Same problem here with flintlocks when I first got started. Worked through it by practice, practice and more practice. Went through a few flints before I got decent, wasn't smart enough to try a fake flint like waksupi and others have mentioned (non firing practice). If you feel it is the flash causing you to flinch, have you considered a set of fairly dark safety glasses? I understand you have to see the target, but something dark enough to settle the flash down might help. Just a thought.

[skeettx]

Here is the easy fix, wear safety goggles!

Yet your body know you are wearing safety goggle and the powder and spark
can not get to your eyes.

Enjoy the light show in protected safety.

Relish in your new found freedom from flinching :)

Mike

p.s. goggles are cheap :)

http://www.discountsafetygear.com/eye-protection-goggles.html

[reivertom]

Just shoot, shoot and shoot some more. Eventually you will quit.

[huntingsgr8]

Well, I did some shooting with it today at 30, and 60 yards. Just to save powder, my load was 50grs of 3f behind a 320gr lee REAL bullet. I circled my 30 yard shots and put lines around my 60 yard shots. I know I'm still flinching, but that 3.5 inch group is a lot better than what I've been able to do previously. I took 14 shots in total, but two missed the target altogether, going an inch or so past the bottom right corner. They were shot at 60 yards so I'm not sure if wind and bullet drop is to blame or if I just really screwed up. I did some dry practice before, then practiced with a flash charge only, then began shooting, using the method described by Bosterr. I used up all of my bullets today, so I'll have to make more before I shoot again.137352137353137354

[waksupi]

Dropping low and right means you are still flinching. Try going to a good ol' round ball, the heavier projectile may be making you shy away from the recoil.

[huntingsgr8]

That's part of the reason I used 50gr charges, I find it kicked less than a .410. Originally when I bough my mold, I had wanted to get the 320gr REAL/round ball combo, but couldn't, so I went with the REAL for the sole reason of not needing patches, not to mention I'm a little unsure of how well a little round ball would deal with a moose, we have no deer season up here, only moose, bear, waterfowl, and small game.

[tddeangelo]

The flinch is to push the gun away, usually resulting in a low hit, and often to the right, as mentioned. This is part of why I tried the "pulling back to my shoulder" method I outlined. I try to keep stock pressure on my shoulder throughout the shot. Can't shove it forward if I'm putting tension on it rearward. Well, I can, but I have to try harder to do it. :)

In other words, your flinch is not really recoil-oriented. It's avoidance of the flash, along with some target panic thrown in for spice, usually. Gotta work on follow through, getting your body to do it properly through the firing of the rifle, and then you're golden.

[huntingsgr8]

Yeah, makes sense. I'll do more practice with just a flash charge, and if by next time I haven't improved I'll try putting tape on part of my glasses like mentioned somewhere above.

[heelerau]

Mate, I would also dry fire with wood flint replacement, and follow through make sure you keep your sight on the target. I also used to rest a coin on my Pat 53 barrel when I dry fired it using a snap cap, 10 times a day at a mark on the wall. Then after you have quit flinching with the wood flint, go back to flint and some priming and do the same thing.

Cheers and good luck
Heelerau

[Geezer in NH]

Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, sorry but don't give up. Practice, Practice, Practice,