New Slugs To Try!

[longbow]

Well, after a long break then the Nessler and rib slug test, I got some more slugs cast up for testing.

136715

Actually none are truly new...

The round ball and copper tube has been done twice now but a little different both times:

- First was a 0.662" ball on a straight piece of copper tube, it worked but needed "tweaking" ~ mostly it was undersize so had to be patched up to fit in a shotcup

- Second was 0.662" ball on tube with both ends flared to bore diameter using a piece of shotgun barrel as a die and a flared punch. That didn't go so well with same load as above giving hard recoil and sticky extraction. I think the ball was setting back and expanding the flared tube to over bore diameter resulting in kinda high pressure. I didn't recover any of two or three shot.

- Third for this test is a 0.678" ball on a piece of tube flared only on the base to fit into a standard shotcup. Balance point is good and with glue filled tube and straight end under the ball this one should not give me problems. It is a good fit with shotcup in the bore so should do well. We'll see. The ball has a wood screw run into it for the glue to bond to and hold ball to tube.

Middle TC slug has a nose band of 0.687" which was a little larger than I wanted (sloppy machining). In previous tests they did not do well but the shotcup fit to bore was tight. This time I got thinner petal wads to try and fit is perfect. The skirt is quite thick and glue filled. Base diameter is 0.660" which fits perfectly in the wad. I have hopes for this one. If results are good I will machine anotehr nose form with band at 0.675" to maybe 0.680".

Last is a TC hollow base that is from a mould made for a different purpose and to fit thick petal steel shotcups for rifled bore. The slugs cast at 0.652" so have to be patched up to fit in a shotcup to give good fit to bore. These were tried three or four years ago and gave pretty good results except for frequent fliers. Recovered slugs showed skirt distortion so I heat treated and tried again getting good groups of about 4" at 50 yards. I didn't like having to patch and heat treat though so didn't re-test. I am rethinking that now since groups were better than about anything else I have tested. Paper patching to proper fit isn't hard and allows for fit to about any shotcup so not a bad thing. Heat treating is a bit of a pain but glue filling may do the trick without heat treating.

I have 10 of each loaded along with some more of the ribbed slugs also with glue fill this time.

These will all be shot from my smoothbore 12 ga.

I was hoping to test today as I was going to the archery range anyway which is adjacent to the gun range but there was a shoot going on at one gun range and the other one was populated as well so I will wait until I can get some alone time. I like to look for spent wads and recover slugs which I can't do when others are there. Next weekend is our big archery shoot so testing will have to be done after work one day this week or next or wait until the weekend after next.

Since testing will be a bit delayed I may just make up some Brenneke style slugs to test again too. They are made using the same mould as the right hand TC slug with a different base plug in it. I keep thinking if I have to glue fill hollow cavities I may as well make Brenneke attached wad slugs using hot melt glue.

Well, there is a gabby post with not much exciting stuff in it! Hopefully I will have exciting results in a week or two.

Longbow

[bikerbeans]

Looking forward to your test results.


BB

[cpileri]

Whats the weight on those?
C-

[longbow]

The copper tube slugs are 560 gr.

The middle TC slugs are 490 gr.

The right hand TC slugs are 540 gr.

I plan to rework the middle slug mould a little fixing nose diameter to get 0.670" to 0.680" and weight at between 500 and 525 gr. to take advantage of the Lyman sabot slug load data. I like slug weight to be between 1 oz. and 525 grs. since there is so much load data available.

I have shot 575 gr., 600 gr. and 800 gr. using equal weight shot loads but find that "real" slug load recipes for heavyweights are few and far between.

Longbow

[Y-man]

Looking forward to seeing your range reports! I will be test-firing my round balls in my new Mossberg Rifled Barrel soon, I'm still having some issues with sights on the shotgun though.

[longbow]

I'm betting those round balls do well for you.

You have a 0.729" ball mould don't you? If so it should be about right for a rifled barrel but I'll suggest using a scoop of cornmeal, Cream 'O Wheat, semolina or whatever fine ground cereal you have available under the ball to give some support to the wad below and a nice seat for the ball so it doesn't tend to rotate as it enters the bore. Might not be bad with a rifled gun but some of my 0.735" balls showed an uneven "belt" at the equator telling me that they already started to spin/roll as the entered the bore and they have more contact area than a 0.729" ball will.

Now I have a question. Are you removing shotcup and cutting petals off for the balls or reloading from scratch?

Looking forward to your range results too.

Longbow

[Y-man]

Hello Longbow,
Yes, I have a 0.729" ball mould - Jeff Tanner Uk. Casts sweet!
About the filler idea - what I have done is use a hollow punch to punch out doughnut/ donut wads out of plastic Coke bottle covers. Then I seat the balls [Sprue up] in the hull on top of the doughnut wads. The wads centralise the balls, and keep them from sliding around, so they SHOULD go into the bore without rotating, I hope!

Yes - I am taking target shotshells, cutting petals off and using the above mentioned plastic doughnut wads.

I hope it works fine.

[longbow]

The donut wads may do the trick for you. If accuracy is good probably not worth worrying about but if not the balls may tell you why. Try to recover some balls and take a look at the rifling. If there is an uneven belt around the equator then the ball was rolling into the bore. I have seen that with 0.735" balls in my smoothbore.

It isn't easy to catch those big 'ol balls though! I have found several way downrange at out 300 meter rifle range after shooting. We have a sandy range area so the balls often skip and travel but run out of steam before 300 yards after hitting the ground a time or two (I am usually shooting at 50 meters). Usually they are in pretty good shape at recovery too.

Longbow

[cpileri]

Interesting!
I noticed some years ago that a piece of copper pipe I had laying around fit inside a wad cup with no modification, but I never pursued it.
You are making me think...
C-

[longbow]

Weeelllll... copper tube doesn't quite fit perfect. It does sit nicely into the bottom of Winchester and Claybuster shotcups because they are undersize. Up along the sides though it is loose.

What I have done is to put a slight flare on the tube to tighten up against the bore by flaring the petals out a bit and then sit a 0.678" RB on top so that is a near perfect fit at the top.

Now with thick petal steel shot wads the copper tube may fit about right and that would be worth looking into. No flaring and use 0.662" balls.

The slugs I made before were flared to bore size top and bottom and that didn't go so well. I have to think that the tube flared under the ball at firing so expanded causing excess bore friction. The result was very sticky extraction and abandoned testing. Heavier walled tube may work better.

I have just modeled up another slug design also based on using copper tube flared to bore size at the bottom and with a slug like a Hammerhead design inserted from the top. So lead bearing on the bore at the top and copper bearing on the bore at the bottom. Tube filled with hot melt glue.

That makes for a very light skirt and real nose heavy design. it is also pretty easy to get consistent copper "skirts" so may solve the inconsistency issue with other types of attached wads.

I'll try to get a mould made up before next weekend for testing with the other slugs (big archery shoot this weekend).

If it works out it should also be an excellent design for rifled bores. No reason it shouldn't work except if the tube wall gives out under load at firing. Otherwise it seems pretty foolproof.

Longbow

[longbow]

My apologies for the delay in field testing these slugs. My attempts to get to the range and shoot were foiled again this weekend.

I did use the time to modify another mould to make a glue skirt Brenneke wad style slug though. I cast up about 25, picked the best 10, though most came out very well anyway, then loaded them up.

I don't have a photo of the new slug but it looks almost identical to these:

138716

The differences are that the new slug is 0.662" diameter (these run around 0.650") and the new slugs have a small hollow base for glue adhesion instead of using a screw as these did to give the glue something to hold onto. I actually made two HB plugs, one with the small cavity and one with a "spike" for a screw starter hole... just in case (belt and suspenders).

The three on the right went through an 8" tree then hit a rocky bank. Accuracy was pretty good.

I have improved my technique for making glue skirts and the new ones came out great. Balance point is right where the body meets the TC nose so very weight forward.

I had a stepped mould of 0.680" x 0.662" to make a slug that fit directly into a shotcup and had a larger nose band that accounted for petal taper. I was going to bore it out larger then decided to leave it at 0.662" and paper patch to fit in whatever shotcup I used. Two wraps of printer paper and a Winchester yellow wad is a perfect fit.

So, now I have even more slugs to test! I just need time to get to the range.

Longbow

[longbow]

I finally made it to the range! Yea!

Okay on to the meaty of the tests!

I tested 6 different designs and as usual not terribly good results except for one shining star. In any case, I learned a few things, relearned a few things and was surprised by a few things. I was also pretty punchy when I left the range. Shooting 50 slug loads off the bench takes its toll on a guy.

I tested all 6 designs at 50 yards shooting 10 each of 4 designs and 5 each of two designs.

Details:

Load #1

- 540 gr. TC hollow base at 0.652" glue filled and paper patched to fit shotcup/bore
- 35 grs. SR4756
- federal 2 3/4" field hull (paper base wad)
- CCI 209 primers
- Winchester AA 12F114
- 10 shots

Recovered wads looked perfect but accuracy was poor 12" x 8". All holes nice and round though.

One slug recovered and in excellent shape.

I have had these shoot very well for me in the past so what went wrong this time...?

Details:

Load #2

- 510 gr. TC hollow base at 0.678" x 0.662" glue filled with 1/4" glue extension
- 36 grs. SR4756
- federal 2 3/4" field hull (paper base wad)
- CCI 209 primers
- Winchester AA 12F114
- 10 shots

Recovered wads showed damage at base of slug. Accuracy very poor ~ all over 2' x 4' paper. One keyhole.

This was a relearning experience as I have tried this one before and it did the same thing. I think the hydraulic effect of the glue extension being booted in the butt causes swelling of the skirt and damage to wad petals. Once should have been enough. I only shot 5 of these.

A glue "skirt" was recovered so they do not bond well or the swelling of the lead skirt breaks the glue bond

Load #3

- 510 gr. 0.662" TC glue Skirt Brenneke
- 36.5 grs. SR4756
- federal 2 3/4" field hull (paper base wad)
- CCI 209 primers
- Winchester AA 12F114
- 10 shots

These were paper patched with 2 wraps of printer paper to snug fit in shotcup/barrel with relatively easy push through.

Accuracy was very poor with holes all over 2' square target. All holes round though.

I had thought this one would do better though I did make the mistake of using a small hollow cavity instead of using a starter hole then run a screw in to hold the glue skirt. i suspect as with load #2 that the glue skirts may have distorted the slug skirt and lost bond. One glue skirt was recovered but no slugs.

Load #4

- 490 gr. 0.689" x 0.662" TC HB glue filled
- 35 grs. SR4756
- federal 2 3/4" field hull (paper base wad)
- CCI 209 primers
- Claybuster wad
- 5 shots

This is the same slug as in load #2 except they were my first cast and the nose was a bit large which I rectified later. These were cast and fit Claybuster wads well so I thought I would try.

Accuracy was very poor. Wads all had damage to the gas seal. Only 5 shot.

Load #5

- 530 gr. bore size ribbed HB slug glue filled
- 35 grs. SR4756
- federal 2 3/4" field hull (paper base wad)
- plastic gas seal, 1/2" fiber wad, 1/8" nitro card wad
- CCI 209 primers
- 10 shots

These were horrible. No other word for it but horrible! I only got two shots on a 3' x 4' piece of paper! Not sure why as they are bore size and fit well. Balance point was good. I just do not know.

I recovered one slug that was fairly beat up after passing through a steel belted radial tire. I shot a few at the target and they were just all over so I decided to try to get a tired and manage one hit. The slug is distorted but the ribs look like others I have seen adn posted photos of where they are mushed diagonally. I have to think this happens during the jump through the forcing cone in my 3" chamber. generally I have had best results using wad slugs, not bore size.

Load #6
- 0.678" RB with screw run in then 1/2" copper tube cast on with hot melt glue and 540 grs.
- 37 grs. Blue Dot
- federal 2 3/4" field hull (paper base wad)
- CCI 209 primers
- Pacific verelite wads
- 5 shots

These were the surprise of the day with excellent accuracy. I have done this with 0.662" RB's and 0.678" RB's in a different tube configuration. The 0.662" RB version did quite well but the 0.678" version did not. This time I hanged how I flared the tube and things seem to have worked.

This one shot a 3 3/4" cluster at max. spread. Target photo attached. it was the only target worth posting and a good one at that!

Now a question arises... this was the only load with Blue Dot which I have had very good results with. Could the powder make that much difference? As i said, I had expected the 510 gr. glue skirt Brenneke to do well but it did very poorly. I used SR4756 in those loads.

I did only shoot 5 of these because I could not take any more recoil. I guess I am getting old and soft but 50 rounds from a bench took a toll on me.

I should add that I started out using my old Cooey single shot but just couldn't take the recoil so switched to my Browning BPS early on as it weighs more and has a better recoil pad. I did not notice any accuracy change during shooting between each gun but then the first slugs I shot were not doing well anyway. The copper tube slugs were shot from my Browning as were most others.

So what did I learn? Well, as I keep saying I believe the skirt/base consistency is very important and the copper tube has a consistent crisp clean edge. The glue skirts are pretty good but not perfect. And if a slugs skirt distorts accuracy goes away (relearning experience).

Also, I should know better about glue in hollow base slugs where the glue extends. Best to go with a screw to secure the glue skirts as in the photo in my post above.

I will retest the copper tube slugs for sure to see if I can repeat these results and I will give the glue skirt Brenneke a retest but using flat base and screw to hold the glue skirt.

I've attached a few photos for your viewing pleasure and do have a few more things I can add but it is late and I am tired. I do need my beauty rest! Please forgive any typos, etc. I did not proof read. Corrections to come later if any.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

"I have not failed. I've just found 10.000 ways that won't work."

Thomas A Edison

It is becoming painfully clear that the wad is the key to accurate slugs from a smoothbore. Your success with the copper tube wad only confirms it.
Except for round balls, I don't think ordinary shot wads will work terribly well in combination with slugs - either as a combined slug or as a sabot. Too flimsy I'm afraid, but I would be happy to be proved wrong.

My own project has progressed faster than expected, but more (including pics) on that shortly. Stay tuned...

[longbow]

You know Cap'n Morgan...

I was just thinking the other day that I have probably switched around to too many designs trying to find the right one. I should probably pick one that has good potential then vary loading and components to see how things go.

I think I have concluded that hollow base slugs are not for me. The only success I have had is with heat treated slugs with thick skirts and that was mostly marginal success. I got groups about as good as with round balls at 50 yards. I would rather shoot round balls then.

The 540 gr. TC HB slugs have shot nice groups before but certainly did not this time and I have to wonder why. The only real difference was the powder. I was using Blue Dot before but am about out and no more available.

Now if the groups held up at 100 yards (which they do not seem to... well enough at least), that might make the slug more attractive.

The copper tube slugs do seem to perform better than others though the glue skirt Brennekes have done well in the past. I really expected the 0.662" paper patched Brenneke to do better and I am not sure what went wrong except I am kicking myself for using the hollow base (very small cavity) design to avoid using a screw. So I will re-test the glue skirt Brenneke and the copper tube slugs. Both have very weight forward design and I can patch that 0.662" to fit perfectly.

The other mistake I made was trying to shoot 10 each of 6 designs off the bench in one afternoon. I am sure the recoil killed more brain cells and I do not have many to spare these days!

I'll counter your comment about standard wads though. I have found it easier to get decent to good accuracy using wad slugs and round balls in wads than full bore slugs. Bearing in mind I am shooting smoothbore using 2 3/4" hulls in a 3" chamber which is not the best. Using standard wads seems to provide guidance, cushioning or a combination. Fit and bearing surface do have to be "right" though or petals do fail. Also, the wad needs a solid base of it distorts badly and often fails. Take care of those things though and it works well for me.

Anyway, enough rambling. I will set up and retest copper tube slugs and glue skirt Brennekes again and see if I can do better. If the copper tube slugs do well again that answers some questions. I am hoping the glue skirt Brennekes do better. We'll see.

Again it will be a while before I can get to the range. I have a 3 day archery shoot this coming weekend.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

3 day archery shoot....fun! So much quieter too, and not enough recoil to notice. We have our big shoot in 2 weeks. have fun!

[longbow]

If I get a bruise on my shoulder shooting my bow I know I am doing something wrong!!!

This is a great shoot, all traditional. Loads of fun, great people and we have a pig roast on Sunday... and it just so happens to be my birthday on Sunday so I get pig roast birthday dinner.

[bikerbeans]

LB,

Do you cast your own arrows?:kidding:


BB

[Hogtamer]

In archery, "cast" is a vague term descriptive of the strength of the bow judged by the trajectory of the arrow. His homemade longbows and handcrafted arrows is undoubtedly a better choice as a weapon than some of that last batch of slugs!!!!

[longbow]

Good catch Hogtamer! I would have missed that one.

Yes, I do make my own arrows of wood shafts, self nocked and feather fletched. The "cast" as Hogtamer notes is not bad from my old yew bow. I've shot the 185 yard elk shoot (of Howard Hill fame) and shot clout with it. It "casts" an arrow pretty well.

And yes, I can shoot arrows better at 50 yards than some of those last slugs... but 50 yards is a loooong way for my old yew bow and aging body. For most traditional shoots, 30 yards is a far shot except for the occasional long shot at big targets like buffalo or moose for fun, and the novelty long shots.

I have actually considered and may yet cast field points of zinc or lead for "disposable" arrows for plinking. Thinking more about that for crossbows though for cheap bolts I don't mind losing occasionally... should I get a crossbow which I am thinking of.

Anyway, I digress yet again.

I will have three slugs to test next time:

- copper tube/round ball slugs
- glue skirt Brennekes made with a screw to hold glue instead of the hollow cavity (mistake that was)
- a hybrid slug of TC design same as the glue skirt Brenneke with a reduced shank (think heeled boolit) and copper tube skirt. I have already made the base form so am ready to cast.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Say it ain't so LONGBOW!!! An xbow is no bow at all but an abominable arrow delivery device. And speaking of ole Howard, he said "always shoot your best arrow!" You'd best not mention that xbow thing at your trad shoot this weekend! BTW, some of the best arrows I ever made were from a bulk box of ramin dowels I bought for next to nothing. Ramin is on somebody's protected list but these ought to do....Eyeball each 3' shaft and cut off the most crooked end about 2" longer than your finished length. Chuck 3/8 shaft in drill held in vice, turn on full speed and starting with coarse sandpaper slide paper held in your hand full length back and forth until diameter you want. Finish with fine paper. Minimal finish if at all and then grimace about the high price of fletching!!!! A .38 hull makes a great blunt.
http://wood-dowel.com/store/10511-0375-3-8x36-birch-dowel-rods.html

[longbow]

I've made arrows from ramin before but found the dowels I got varied dramatically in weight and I do mean dramatically!

I have been making arrows from yellow cedar dowel a friend turned out a few years ago. Best arrow shafting I have ever used! I am running low though and he is not making dowel anymore. I will need a new supply.

As for the crossbow, it is just a thought at this point and would be used more like a gun except quiet. I would not consider a compound crossbow if that is what you are thinking. If I get one it would be a recurve crossbow like Excalibur. Or, possibly a medieval reproduction which does have some history behind it too.

I would not think of replacing my traditional bows with a crossbow though. Not ever!

Longbow