New hope for .303/7.7 Arisaka

[blixen01]

I've been frustrated in shooting CBs out of my 7.7 Arisaka and SMLE sporters. Everything I've tried (short of spending real money on custom molds.) has yielded mediocre groups.
A light bulb went on today. I realized I might have the solution on my reloading bench.

I use a Lee Mold C338-220-1R to get a .338 diameter, 220 grain round nose bullet. Then I size that thru a .326. honed out 8x57 sizer. (That bullet shots great outta my Yugo mauser).

Then --eureka!--I sized that boolit thru a .318 honed-out sizer. That boolit fits tightly in my .303 and 7.7 Arisakas fired case necks.. The grease grooves are pretty shallow and I have no idea if the twist rates are compatible with a 220 grain boolit. But I can't wait to see how it works.

[Gunor]

Alox lube for the shallow groves? I am wondering on that question, myself.

geoff in Oregon

[stormingnorm]

I pound tested my 7.7 with a lot of advice and help from yodogsandman. It came out at .314. I was told there was variation, but wow .318 is the extreme high end. I have one noe mold for .314 at 202 gr and have one in .314 at 180 gr coming. Please tell us how it does. I read on one of the stick us that 13 gr of red dot is great for most 30 cal was so that is what I am going to try next. I have been making my own 7.7 brass from 3006 brass. Not really hard and they fire well. 13 gr of red dot is much better than the 40-60 gr of others i have been trying out.

[Maven]

"...the grease grooves are pretty shallow...." ...blixen01

blixen & Gunor, When you radically resize CB's, it helps to fill the lube grooves with solid bullet lube before sizing down so as to help support those grooves. Afterward, you can use liquid alox either tumble lubed or applied by hand.

[blixen01]

I also use reformed '06 cases for the Arisaka. I tumble lubed the boolits in 45/45/10 alox/furniture wax before sizing. I plan on tumble lubing again.

My bore isn't .318, but that's the interior diameter of the case neck after shooting, which I assume = throat size. IIRC, the bore is around .314.

So I'm guessing the boolit will fill the throat, then squeeze down to the bore size, keeping the hot gas behind the gas check.

I use red dot, but keep it in the 5-8 grain loads. Above that, I switch to 15-16 gr. of 2400, above that I go to 18-20 grains of sr4759.

Unfortunately, I have a hard time finding those powders.

[303Guy]

The one thing to watch for is boolit base feathering from being 'sized down' by the throat. If uneven it could degrade accuracy.

Another possibility you might explore is paper patching. The problem with paper patching though, is that it's addictive! Have a look at the the Smokeless Paper Patching sub-forum and see if it interests you. You would be looking at full power rifle velocities. But for higher volume, low velocity shooting, plain cast and lubed can't be beat. Each has it's place.

[DonMountain]

The one thing to watch for is boolit base feathering from being 'sized down' by the throat. If uneven it could degrade accuracy.

Another possibility you might explore is paper patching. The problem with paper patching though, is that it's addictive! Have a look at the the Smokeless Paper Patching sub-forum and see if it interests you. You would be looking at full power rifle velocities. But for higher volume, low velocity shooting, plain cast and lubed can't be beat. Each has it's place.

Is it reasonable to "paper patch" say a 180 grain cast boolet cast at 0.308" up to fit these 0.314 to 0.316" barrels in a 303 British or 7.7 Arisaka?

[blixen]

Let me be the first to say it, I'm a knucklehead.
I sized down some boolits and the .318 bands slid into the case necks snugly. What I neglected to take into account is that while the bands are .318 allowing the neck to fit perfectly into the chamber, the nose of the boolit is also .318 and it bumps into a .314-.315 bore, not allowing the cartridge to chamber unless i push the boolit way down into the case until the point is the only thing showing.

The worst part is that someone on this site warned me about the nose being too big a while ago, and I forgot it.

I need to get a mold that throws a bullet with .318 bands, but has a .314ish nose. Any suggestions? I've read the NOE 316 299 is excellent, (apparently, they have re-designated it 316-202).

I wish I had the patience to paper patch, that might be the answer.

[leadman]

Some of the members here have devised a way to size only the nose. I didn't pay attention to it so can't help you out on the method but maybe someone will chime in here.

[CHeatermk3]

My friend has a die for sizing the nose but it is a custom job and was supposed to be a "bump" die. He paid over $150 for it and uses it to size/taper his boolit bore-riding section and first driving band.

A less expensive way would be to push your boolit nose-first into the appropriate H&I die, using a replacement pusher-ejector plug thingy(inside the H&I die) that matches the bullet's contour. Of course you'd need a lube-sizer press and a blank/flat top punch too. You can buy blank top punches from Al at NOE for $4.50 plus shipping.

HTH...

P.S.--13.0 grains of red dot is a lot--I'd try about half of that to start.

[blixen01]

Thanks,
I fiddled around and worked out a way to size the noses with my Lee sizing die.

I cut a piece of PVC pipe to make a "stop" that only allows the nose to be sized to .312".
I press the well-lubed boolit's nose into the .312 die (cause that's what I got) until the pvc tube stops it.
Then I drop a piece of rod in the top and tap the boolit back down and out.
I get a boolit with .312 nose and .318 bands. It also has a small flat point from the removal rod. (Not entirely a bad thing.)

I loaded a couple dummy rounds and they chamber fine, leaving some faint rifling marks.

Even if this works, it leaves me with a laborious sizing process.http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/17/d643b6dff5bb2441e642a061a810e7e7.jpg

BTW, I never use more than 8 grains of Red or Green Dot.

[303Guy]

Is it reasonable to "paper patch" say a 180 grain cast boolet cast at 0.308" up to fit these 0.314 to 0.316" barrels in a 303 British or 7.7 Arisaka?Yes indeed. No gas checks required either.


Even if this works, it leaves me with a laborious sizing process.I made myself a two diameter push in-push out die with a nose matching push out plug. It works great but is a bit of a mission to make. It also helps to have a lathe!

Try out those boolits and see what happens.

[blixen01]

I sized and loaded the handful of cast .338 boolits I had on hand. Lubed with 45/45/10 Alox, furniture wax. I just used light load of 7 grains of Red Dot.
Got a little time at the range--75 yards.
It's too few groups (1) to make a call, but I'm optimistic.

I used more than half my cartridges getting on paper with the Williams 5D. Shot the rest for a group.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/18/9adc99c5e4a082334122e59d9b535c72.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/18/e5005c7b83465ea90562565a589b7d9e.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/18/7065f8fa1e586fd7d0da1bf98a29aae8.jpg

[stormingnorm]

I will have to start with 7 gr of red dot and work up. Either way it is easier on my shoulder than the powders in the load books. I actually read the red dot load on here somewhere.

[blixen]

I've gotten the double sizing process down and goes quicker. Now I have to cast some more bullets.

Stormingnorm, +1 on proceeding with care with 13 grains of Red Dot. It's supposed to be "The Load" in full-size 30 cal. cases, but my old Lyman manual says 10 grains is the max in 30-40 Krag and .303 and to start out with 8 grains. just Sayin'.

[leadman]

13gr should not give you a problem in the Arisaka, which uses load data very close to the 303 British and 7.65X53 Arg. Mauser. I have shot alot of rounds of it in my 1891 Arg. with the 200gr 314299 with no issues.

[stormingnorm]

What sight is on that jap 7.7 blitzen? Mine has the original sight and I am not happy with it as I can not adjust left or right

[blixen]

A gunsmith in the dim past put a Williams Fool Proof receiver sight on the rear and a dovetailed ramp sight up front. It was a lot of work for a 7.7mm. He probably should have rechambered it for 30-06 (7.7-06) while he was at it and made it easier to reload.

It's a nice rifle and shoots jacketed really well. I want to find a CB load for it.

[bruce drake]

Easier to reload? Grab yourself some 8mm Mauser brass and just resize and you've got 7.7 Arisaka brass with only 1mm shorter neck!
or just trim 5mm off a 30-06 case and run it through a resizing die as well.
:)
Great cartridge when loaded with a properly fitting boolit and some good medium speed powder.

I use Lyman's 200gr 314299 boolit mold for my T99 Arisaka.

Bruce

[gpidaho]

If you've been talking with yodog he's probably already mentioned Powder coat, with it you don't need lube grooves at all, plus you can add a little dimension on the nose that way if you need it. GP

[blixen]

Easier to reload? Grab yourself some 8mm Mauser brass and just resize and you've got 7.7 Arisaka brass with only 1mm shorter neck!
or just trim 5mm off a 30-06 case and run it through a resizing die as well.
Bruce

its not the brass--I use '06. What I meant was: had the rifle been rechambered for 30-06, the enormous throat would have been replaced--I assume--making it easier to cast for.

But you hit on one thing, I might have to invest in a better mold.

still, that 75 yard test gives me hope. I need some time to make more boolits to see if it holds up.

thanks for the feedback, btw.

[leadman]

I went to the garage and compared the 30-06 and some 8 X 57 reformed to 7.7 X 58. Only a tiny bit of the throat would be changed by rechambering to 30-06. Shoulder of the 7.7 is slightly shorter than the '06.

[blixen]

I went to the garage and compared the 30-06 and some 8 X 57 reformed to 7.7 X 58. Only a tiny bit of the throat would be changed by rechambering to 30-06. Shoulder of the 7.7 is slightly shorter than the '06.

Leadman, I stand corrected and thank you for that. For some reason, my '06 brass looks so much longer than the 7.7x58 that I thought rechambering would wipe out the original throat.

On another front, I loaded some of my .314/.318-stepped 210 grain boolits into .303 brass pushed by light loads, 6-9 grains of Tite Group, and tried it out of my No. 4 Sante Fe sporter that has a super-roomy throat. Dismal results at 100 yards, about 4 inch groups. Again, this .303 sporter shoots well with jacketed bullets.

[swheeler]

I've been frustrated in shooting CBs out of my 7.7 Arisaka and SMLE sporters. Everything I've tried (short of spending real money on custom molds.) has yielded mediocre groups.
A light bulb went on today. I realized I might have the solution on my reloading bench.

I use a Lee Mold C338-220-1R to get a .338 diameter, 220 grain round nose bullet. Then I size that thru a .326. honed out 8x57 sizer. (That bullet shots great outta my Yugo mauser).

Then --eureka!--I sized that boolit thru a .318 honed-out sizer. That boolit fits tightly in my .303 and 7.7 Arisakas fired case necks.. The grease grooves are pretty shallow and I have no idea if the twist rates are compatible with a 220 grain boolit. But I can't wait to see how it works.

If you hand lube all the grooves on that .338 cast bullet before you run it through the .326 push thru sizer your lube grooves will be the exact same depth as when they were cast.

[dualsport]

The NOE 316299 has worked pretty good in my .31s. .303, 7.65, 7.62 Russian, etc. I've even Beagled it to produce a real fatty. Up to about .306x.318. Gator cheks still seat.

[stormingnorm]

I sized and loaded the handful of cast .338 boolits I had on hand. Lubed with 45/45/10 Alox, furniture wax. I just used light load of 7 grains of Red Dot.
Got a little time at the range--75 yards.
It's too few groups (1) to make a call, but I'm optimistic.

I used more than half my cartridges getting on paper with the Williams 5D. Shot the rest for a group.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/18/9adc99c5e4a082334122e59d9b535c72.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/18/e5005c7b83465ea90562565a589b7d9e.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/18/7065f8fa1e586fd7d0da1bf98a29aae8.jpg
What is that,sight on your 7.7? I have the original and it is not very adjustable.

Some of the members here have devised a way to size only the nose. I didn't pay attention to it so can't help you out on the method but maybe someone will chime in here.


Thanks,
I fiddled around and worked out a way to size the noses with my Lee sizing die.

I cut a piece of PVC pipe to make a "stop" that only allows the nose to be sized to .312".
I press the well-lubed boolit's nose into the .312 die (cause that's what I got) until the pvc tube stops it.
Then I drop a piece of rod in the top and tap the boolit back down and out.
I get a boolit with .312 nose and .318 bands. It also has a small flat point from the removal rod. (Not entirely a bad thing.)

I loaded a couple dummy rounds and they chamber fine, leaving some faint rifling marks.

Even if this works, it leaves me with a laborious sizing process.http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/17/d643b6dff5bb2441e642a061a810e7e7.jpg

BTW, I never use more than 8 grains of Red or Green Dot.

[stormingnorm]

Any one mounted a scope on original stock 7.7?

[leadman]

I have a couple of "Bubba" 7.7 Arisakas and have plans to put a long eye relief scope on one of them in the future. I like this option as it eliminates having to bend the bolt handle and do something with the safety.

[Scharfschuetze]

I use Lyman's 200gr 314299 boolit mold for my T99 Arisaka.

My Arisaka Model 99 also has a large, but pristine bore; so I have the NOE mould 316299 for it.

[3006guns]

Leadman, I stand corrected and thank you for that. For some reason, my '06 brass looks so much longer than the 7.7x58 that I thought rechambering would wipe out the original throat.

On another front, I loaded some of my .314/.318-stepped 210 grain boolits into .303 brass pushed by light loads, 6-9 grains of Tite Group, and tried it out of my No. 4 Sante Fe sporter that has a super-roomy throat. Dismal results at 100 yards, about 4 inch groups. Again, this .303 sporter shoots well with jacketed bullets.

Just a quick note on rechambering a type 99 to 30-06......

There is only ONE correct way to do this and fortunately it's not hard. You remove the barrel and face off enough of the flange and threads to allow it to screw back in ONE MORE THREAD farther. Some touch up of the extractor groove may be necessary. At this point you can chamber and shoot 7.65 Mauser (Argentine) ammo.........or simply run a 30-06 reamer in and it will clean up all of the old chamber, allowing that cartridge to be used.

I have two such rifles, one in 30-06 and one in 7.65 Mauser. Both are very accurate.

[Scharfschuetze]

Just a quick note on rechambering a type 99 to 30-06......

There is only ONE correct way to do this and fortunately it's not hard. You remove the barrel and face off enough of the flange and threads to allow it to screw back in ONE MORE THREAD farther. Some touch up of the extractor groove may be necessary. At this point you can chamber and shoot 7.65 Mauser (Argentine) ammo.........or simply run a 30-06 reamer in and it will clean up all of the old chamber, allowing that cartridge to be used.

I have two such rifles, one in 30-06 and one in 7.65 Mauser. Both are very accurate.

Just out of curiosity:

1. Does the recutting of the chamber cause the chrome in the bore to chip?

2. By cutting back a thread, do you remove the propensity of the 7.7 Jap to bulge out at the web of the cartridge case?

Fortunately that's not in the future of my Type 99 so I'm just inquisitive at this point.

[blixen]

I'm the OP on this thread and I'm glad to see it resurrected because I've been tinkering with my Arisaka again. I gave up on the double sizing because it's too labor intensive. I'm considering buying the Lee 8 mm mold and sizing down to .318 for th Arisaka. (Is that a sizing too far?) If that shows promise I might get an NOE .319 mold. For some reason I really like this rifle.

That is a Williams 5d sight by the way and it holds zero nicely.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'm the OP on this thread and I'm glad to see it resurrected because I've been tinkering with my Arisaka again. I gave up on the double sizing because it's too labor intensive. I'm considering buying the Lee 8 mm mold and sizing down to .318 for th Arisaka. (Is that a sizing too far?) If that shows promise I might get an NOE .319 mold. For some reason I really like this rifle.

I wonder if a 32 Special design would work? It should give you an as cast boolit a couple of thousandths smaller than an 8mm mould.

[CLAYPOOL]

Zanders wholesale again has OATH brand loaded ammo. 180 grain solid copper bullets. Lathe turned bullets. 7.7 Japanese ammo. Rated @ 1900 F.P.S. 180 grs. on the front of the box, 185 on a tag on the side panel. Looks very impressive. They had Graf 6.5 x 50 also coming and going.. It is loaded by Hordany (sp) for military matches with original rifles. You will need a dealer to purchase.

[3006guns]

Just out of curiosity:

1. Does the recutting of the chamber cause the chrome in the bore to chip?

2. By cutting back a thread, do you remove the propensity of the 7.7 Jap to bulge out at the web of the cartridge case?

Fortunately that's not in the future of my Type 99 so I'm just inquisitive at this point.

1.) No, the chrome will not be harmed to the best of my knowledge.

2.) The whole point of "setting the barrel back" one thread is to provide enough material to completely remove the 7.7 chambering when rechambering to 30-06.

The Japanese chamber is about .015" LARGER at the rear, so simply running a 30-06 reamer in there will allow the new cartridge to chamber and shoot, but the brass will expand at the base far more than it should. I have a rifle that was done this way and the brass looks a little scary when extracted. The other rifle with the set back barrel and fresh chambering makes the brass look perfectly normal.

You'll notice I mentioned that the barrel can also be set back one thread and 7.65 Mauser (Belgian) can be fired. The two cases...7.7mm and 7.65.....are so similar except for length that it's almost a perfect conversion, especially since the .312 bore is suited to both.

[Scharfschuetze]

The Japanese chamber is about .015" LARGER at the rear, so simply running a 30-06 reamer in there will allow the new cartridge to chamber and shoot, but the brass will expand at the base far more than it should. I have a rifle that was done this way and the brass looks a little scary when extracted. The other rifle with the set back barrel and fresh chambering makes the brass look perfectly normal.

As I suspected. Thanks.