Need advice for shotgun choke

[oldred]

A guy came by my place to buy some used tires I had and while we were talking he opened the truck of his car so he could shift some junk around to make room for them. Part of that junk he had in the old car was a Springfield model 67 pump shotgun 12 ga 3" chamber with a ribbed sawed off barrel. I asked about the shotgun and he said it was just an old junker he had carried around for years and had never shot, we dickered a bit and I traded the tires that I was going to sell him for $40 to the shotgun even swap! Here is what I have, a Springfield model 67 with quite a bit of surface rust but no pitting that I could see that will not clean up fairly easily and a stock with somewhat scuffed finish but no dings or gouges at all. This thing is, as already mentioned, a 12 ga 3" chamber with a ribbed barrel that someone has taken a hack saw to and never even got the muzzle cut square! Fortunately at 19 1/2" measured from the back of the chamber (rod dropped through at the muzzle to measure) it's still legal and all it really needs is some serious TLC and a trip to my lathe to fix that hideous muzzle.


Now to my question, obviously this thing is simply a straight tube with zero choke but since I can easily remove the rust and reblue the metal and refinish the stock to make this thing look nice I would like to do something about that choke. I am open to suggestions here as to what I should do, since it is a short barrel pump and seems to handle well my first thought was that it would make a first rate "night stand" gun for those just-in-case scenarios but it also occurred to me that it might make a decent turkey gun with a full choke. I know a longer barrel would be better for hunting turkey but even at 19 1/2" I think it will do just fine with a 3" turkey load and the closer ranges I usually get from my hunting blind.

Suggestions?????

[Boolit_Head]

A lot of the cut barrels will not take a threaded choke because the walls of the barrel are to thin. IF that is the route you want to go you will probably have to look into the thin wall chokes.

[NC_JEFF]

My guess is you could find a barrel from most suppliers if not on one of the auction sites.

[SOFMatchstaff]

What is the OD and the ID at the muzzle? You will need a minimum of .015 thickness after threading for std 12ga, and I think .018 or more for the 3" mag installation just to be sure. Std Rem and Win choke tubes, major thread dia are .812. Tru choke go .795, wouldnt consider thin wall for that mag chambering. OD minus .812 , divide by 2 = wall thickness after tapping. Tooling is expensive..... oh yeah, ID max is .735

[oldred]

So maybe I either accept it as a straight tube or buy another barrel? If that's the case I will just refinish it "as-is" and keep it handy for emergencies or short range applications.

It sure would have been handy a month or so ago when a coyote got into our fenced in yard after one of our cats, I got off several shots with my 45 auto in the dark but the dang thing still got away under the fence where he came in and if I had of been using that shotgun I might just have lightened the 'yote population some!

[pietro]

.

FWIW, once upon a time (in the 70's), I made several "deer guns" for my friends, which had cutoff/no-choke barrels, via the simple expedient of installing iron sights or a scope.

They did pretty well, taking their fair share of meat - since the commercial deer slugs of the day were full-sized, and not reduced to be safe in any gun (manufacturer's excuse for the downsizing).


.

[wv109323]

If the barrel is thick enough to install a choke system there are several gunsmiths that do it at a reasonable cost. I bought a Remington 870 that someone had cut down for a smaller person. The barrel and the stock were shortened. I had a Colonial choke system installed . I am happy with it. I would pick a system that has chokes that are ideal for the intended use.

[oldred]

Well I took this thing apart and other than being a bit grungy inside it looks as if it has hardly been fired at all! I scuffed the heavier spots of rust and sure enough no pits that won't clean up so it looks as if a nice matt finish rust blue is called for and stock refinishing regardless of what I do about the choke. It's about time I got myself a shotgun, all I had was a very old and rough 12 ga Stevens 94 that belonged to my Grandfather and is little more than a keepsake item. Fact is I haven't even fired a shotgun in several years and although this thing is not exactly a high-dollar gun I really like the way it looks and feels and it seems to be very well made so I am kind of looking forward to making the old girl presentable again. Maybe get another barrel in full choke and keep the short barrel in it's present configuration, as quick as they are to change I could just have switch barrel setup maybe? With only the forty bucks I got in it I can afford to buy either a choke or a replacement barrel and still have a dirt cheap gun, this just might turn out to be a lot of fun!

[pietro]

.

Yep, I kin see it - yer gettin' the sickness, all right ! :D


.

[Mk42gunner]

My advice is to shoot it first to see what kind of pattern it throws with today's loads. I once bought a Mossberg Model 600, which was a Model 500 with select choke (read Mossberg's version of a polychoke) on it for way less then $100, since the choke was screwed up somehow.

I cut it off at 23" and figured on wide open patterns for quail. I was very surprised when it delivered a nice Modified pattern with light field loads, and a 12 pellet 00 buck load would have been usable on deer to at least 50 yards if buckshot was legal here.

If you do put a choke on it, I think something from that era calls out for a Poly Choke or a Cutts Compensator with external tubes.

Robert

[Cap'n Morgan]

I remember reading (guns & ammo?) about a guy who "forged" a choke on a barrel by carefully peening the muzzle with a hammer and then using a round file to adjust the choke. The amount of constriction is what makes a choke work - the actual length has little influence.

[CastingFool]

it might make a good slug gun as it is now.

[oldred]

I thought about forming a choke, I think I have everything I would need to do this but the rib presents a problem. It would seem simple enough to make a block with the proper tapered hole in it and press it onto the muzzle but the rib would get in the way.

[SOFMatchstaff]

Go with a JUG choke, you can do those with a expanding reamer or a brake cylinder hone. A couple thousandths goes a long way to tighten the pattern..

[bluelund79]

For an even cheaper fix, try a box of the Hornady turkey loads. They were made to use with less choke constriction. That is one heck of a deal though!

[fecmech]

Go with a JUG choke,
Also called the "Tula" choke and is the same idea as the Cutts Compensator. You let the shotstring expand for a short distance and then constrict it again. Leave the last inch or so of barrel as it is and open up the barrel diameter with a reamer or hone .010-.015" for a couple inches behind that. You could easily get somewhere around IC or mod. Like others have said, I would shoot it first and see what you have.

[azrednek]

If you do put a choke on it, I think something from that era calls out for a Poly Choke or a Cutts Compensator with external tubes.

Robert

Cutts Compensator bad idea with modern shot shells. The plastic wads have a tendency to get hung up in the vents. The shotgun Cutts was popular back when cardboard shotshells used felt and cardboard wads. I blew a factory soldered-on Cutts Compensator off an old H&R pump learning the lesson the hard way being young and stupid and not listening to advice.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

As a turkey gun it would give the sort of performance that might disappoint if you had paid a lot of money for a new specialized turkey gun. But then, you haven't. The recoil and muzzle blast will be on the high side, but you won't be shooting several boxes a day, or near a companion's eardrums. I don't believe a gun like this points as well as a longer one, but turkey aren't going to be passing overhead at high velocity. This barrel length is nowhere near as short as will produce really significant velocity loss or blown patterns.

The most significant characteristic is the lack of choke. I'm not familiar with this model, but it isn't the kind that often has the barrel significantly thinner around the 20in. mark than it is at the former muzzle. If you do go for having screw-in tubes, try to find a gunsmith who does a lot of this sort of work. The customers always pay indirectly for the tooling (unless he has got the math wrong), and it is better to pay for a small slice of that, than a large one.

If you want to try producing your own choke, I would much rather hammer a die over the muzzle than try to do it by peening with a hammer. If you thin the metal, you get a blunderbuss - and even worse, perhaps a blunderbuss that bells wider on one side than the other. I don't know this gun as I said, but possibly the rib is pinned to permanently attached studs, like my Winchester 1200 used to be, and can be removed and replaced? Or is there any reason not to permanently remove a soft soldered rib? You are a lucky man if you are liable to be troubled with shimmering above a hot barrel in turkey shooting. I would use two dies, one tapered for an inch or so to get started, and another with a more abrupt entry to form the angle of choke you want.

This angle, and the distance from the muzzle, are quite critical. A choke works by imparting an inward movement to the shot. A very shallow slope won't impart enough movement, and if the choke ends a couple of inches from the muzzle, the shot will have reverted to straight-line motion again. You will simply have created two cylinder bores, one after another.

There is another reason to keep the choke very near the muzzle. Ring-bulges happen when a projectile hits an obstruction in the bore, and is slowed down. The fast-moving powder gases catch up, and are compressed into a very small area behind the projectile. This why a ring-bulge is a little further forward (typically 3/4in. or so) than the obstruction was. The projectile moves that far during the time it takes for the gases to catch up. So this is why a choke can't be such an obstruction, provided that it is so near the muzzle that those gases encounter an empty muzzle.

I would definitely avoid an adjustable reamer for creating a recessed choke. If the reamer chatters, producing a rough surface, what can you do about it? A centrifugally expanded hone strikes me as better, but two (coarse followed by fine) would be better. I would bevel the ends to match the choke angle, on a grinder or sanding disc, and I would be very careful not to permit longitudinal movement.

[tenx]

if you decide to go and thread the barrel for a choke tube, consider installing a poly choke II. poly choke still makes them and they fit in a barrel like a threaded choke tube. with that short barrel the length would seem more like a regular barrel and a slight twist you have any choke you want. i had one on a pump years ago and still wish i had it back. the guys i hunted with then called it a "Dial-A-Duck".

[justashooter]

Suggestions?????

another vote for a jug choke. you make this by inserting a brake honing tool into the bore so that you have 3/4" distance past the cutting edge, and spinning it with a drill for 30 seconds, then measuring the effect with an inside caliper gauge (or, you could pattern it on newspaper). if the pattern is not tight enough, you give it another 30 seconds, shooting for a 6 thou bore enlargement area of about 3-4" length which usually makes a modified pattern in a cylinder gun.

[akajun]

Brownells sells a bushing threaded for winchoke tubes or remchoke tubes. You turn down the od of the muzzle and silver solder the bushing onto the barrel .

[MBTcustom]

Just my humble opinion, but I have a shotgun that was cut down just like yours and it has been modified for interchangeable choke tubes.
There are several companies that make choke tubes specifically for situations like this. They are extremely thin walled, and work quite well.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/shotgun-tools/choke-tube-tools/tru-choke-thinwall-style-tooling-prod25286.aspx
http://www.brownells.com/shotgun-parts/choke-tubes-accessories/choke-tubes/12ga-tru-choke-thinwall-choke-tubes-prod72167.aspx

[oldred]

Just my humble opinion, but I have a shotgun that was cut down just like yours and it has been modified for interchangeable choke tubes.
There are several companies that make choke tubes specifically for situations like this. They are extremely thin walled, and work quite well.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/shotgun-tools/choke-tube-tools/tru-choke-thinwall-style-tooling-prod25286.aspx
http://www.brownells.com/shotgun-parts/choke-tubes-accessories/choke-tubes/12ga-tru-choke-thinwall-choke-tubes-prod72167.aspx


Checking those links I see that, if I understand it correctly, these thin-wall choke inserts can be used ONLY with 2 3/4" shells and lead shot? My chamber is 3" so the odds are that somewhere down the line someone (not me but I won't be around forever) will shoot these big rounds and maybe with steel shot. If some versions of that choke is ok with the longer magnums then that looks like exactly what I need.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Once you have straightened the bad cut muzzle on the barrel to square try shooting some slugs thru it just to see how it will work with them. Since slugs work best with a cylinder choke barrel you may be surprised.Robert

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'd agree that the gun should be shot. With a good bore and square muzzle I don't think there is much doubt that it would shoot well with slugs(If it doesn't, try applying tape to stop the magazine or other moving parts from making irregular contact with the barrel.) But the OP might find its performance with shot very usable too. If not, another barrel, at around $80 from www.gunpartscorp.com (http://www.gunpartscorp.com) , still makes it as good gun as many new ones at several times the cost. Does anybody really need aluminum and rollpins?


I can't imagine Savage making a Springfield incompatible for barrel changing with all the many Savage models with the same number. But this is something you would have to check with Gunparts.


There was also a system of choke installation which I believe Brownells once stocked, but don't any more. The barrel was reamed at the muzzle, and a simple unthreaded choke sleeve was installed by soft soldering.

[oldred]

Right now the gun is in pieces and the parts have been bead blasted (I was right, no rust pits that won't sand out!) awaiting me getting time to finish sand start the rust blue process. Normally I have a distaste for synthetic stocks, not that there is anything wrong with them it's just that I am a traditionalist and love nice walnut wood on a gun, HOWEVER, this shotgun just is just begging me for one of those new fangled plastic contraptions to replace the pallet wood stock and forarm and some of that "tactical" gear! Personally I really like that short barrel and even though a rib looks sort of out-of-place on a short barreled gun I still like it, I never dreamed I would even consider one of those "tactical" contraptions but the more I look at this thing the more I kind of like the idea.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

H'm, "tactical" sounds like what Lincoln called twenty dollar words, except that nowadays a clever lawyer can sell them for a lot more than that. But the gun sounds to be coming along fine. It will end up giving you a lot more pleasure than you could fine in some expensive and heavily advertised cardboard box.

[Clark]

I had a Springfield 67 pump 12 ga 3" when I was in college in 1974.
All my 2 3/4" shells would disappear, as they would fit in my youngest brother's gun.
I hated that Springfiled, because I was always shooting ducks straight up with a 3" magnum and no recoil pad.
I did kill a lot of ducks with it.

Here are some of my notes about chokes:
2) Different choke systems are needed for thin barrels:
..a) I am set up for 12 ga Rem Choke in a few pilot sizes. 32 threads per inch system. I need a barrel to be .845" diameter.
..b) Winchoke is also 32 TPI and needs .845"
..c) The Tru Choke system with 44 TPI needs at least a .825" barrel muzzle.
..d) The Tru Choke Thinwall aslo with 44TPI needs at least .805"

3) After reaming and tapping for Rem Chokes in many shotguns, I have found the preparatory reamer to be slow and the tap hard to turn.
So I have been quickly cutting with a boring bar to get close, then the reamer, and then I power tap using the engine lathe.

What does it all mean?
I cannot modify my full choke A5 with the Rem Choke tooling I own.
But I have been shooting steel shot through it for a long time, and it is still ok.
--------------------
I have taken old shot guns barrels and cut rem choke female threads in the muzzle and rem choke male threads on the breech.
Then I screw them end on end to make a long shotgun for suburban quiet shooing ala metro barrel.
http://www.metrogun.com/
And, of course, I take old shotguns with fixed chokes and make them work with rem-chokes.
Along the way I have bought $325 [2006 prices] in tooling from Brownell's:
1) 12 ga Remchoke reamer
2) 12 ga Win-choke/Remchoke tap
3) .725" bronze bushing
4) .727" bronze bushing
5) .729" bronze bushing
Some tricks I have learned:
1) Don't ream all the metal before tapping. Rough cut with a boring bar is much faster, and finish with the reamer.
2) Power tap with the lathe. Scary at first. You can do it.
3) Some barrels have the bore off center, look out.
4) Different choke systems are needed for thin barrels:
..a) I am set up for 12 ga Rem Choke in a few pilot sizes. 32 threads per inch system. I need a barrel to be .845" diameter.
..b) Winchoke is also 32 TPI and needs .845"
..c) The Tru Choke system with 44 TPI needs at least a .825" barrel muzzle.
..d) The Tru Choke Thinwall aslo with 44TPI needs at least .805"

====================
1) I am set up for 12 ga Rem Choke in a few pilot sizes.
I can only modify half of my massive beater shotgun collection.
Many of the barrels are too thin for my 32 threads per inch system.
I need a barrel to be .845" diameter.
2) Winchoke is also 32 TPI and needs .845"
3) The Tru Choke system with 44 TPI needs at least a .825" barrel muzzle.
4) The Tru Choke Thinwall aslo with 44TPI needs at least .805"

And don't try to cheat on those dimension requirements.
You have to know what you are doing, the bore must be centered in the barrel, you need good equipment, etc.

When Randy Ketchum did it [he was a real gunsmith], he cut off the last 2", only to find that the bore is off center sometimes. I use the whole length of the barrel and spend too much time reaming out the old choke steel mass, so I have gone to a boring bar to prep for the reamer.

I also have a shotgun that has a bulge where the threads are. Stan Baker swaged the barrel out and then cut the threads. He is dead, but his shop is still operating.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have not threaded the outside of shotgun muzzles, but I have threaded the inside of a number of shotgun barrels.
There are lots of variations in shotguns and lots of ways to deal with them:

Jack Belk, famous gunsmith, sometimes re sizes the outside of the barrel with rollers.

What does it all mean?
Shotgun barrels vary in:
1) barrel wall thickness
2) bore being centered in the barrel
3) chokes being centered in the muzzle