gloob
04-12-2015, 06:11 AM
I learned something interesting, today. Long story to follow. Short of it: even if you think your bullets are not being case-swaged, an expander might make a difference?
The beginning:
My first attempt at shooting cast bullets in 9mm went rather poorly. MBC Small Ball, 18 BHN, .356", 125 grain bullets over 5.0 grains Unique in a Glock 19. I used both a stock barrel and a LWD. Minimal crimp, not even removing quite all of the flare. No FCD. OAL was about as long as I could fit mag/chamber, as I recall.
Fouling was moderate in the LWD barrel, showing up in certain patches of the bore, not super concentrated in any one area. Fouling was moderate to heavy in the stock Glock barrel, full bore, after just one shot. Accuracy was pretty bad in both barrels. Usable within 20-25 yards, anyhow. But I couldn't keep them in a 30 foot circle at 100 yards. The LWD barrel was probably more accurate, but that barrel is for my subcompact, which I never did shoot that well, so it was hard to quantify.
I shot up all 1000 I had ordered, anyhow. I learned to put a couple plated pills in each mag to keep the fouling from building up, and I cleaned the bore after each outing. I actually preferentially shot them out of the stock Glock barrel, because it was easier to clean. Then I went back to plated bullets.
At some point, I tried MBC bullets in my Glock 21, and they shot super clean and super accurate. No fouling.
So then I tried casting my own 9mm bullets. Straight WW for alloy, Lee tumble lube 125 gr mold. I shot them unsized, at .357ish, tumble lubed with Alox. First attempt, fouling was ridiculous. After one shot, there was so much lead in the bore, I stopped. I had to use a sharpened brass tube to scrape the lead out in big strips and chunks.
So about this time, I learned about case-swaging. I read some info on the Cast Boolits sticky. I pulled some of my bullets and measured the base as small as .353". I ordered a Lee 38SW expander for my Lee dies, and I tried again. I have been shooting those bullets ever after, and I have not scrubbed fouling from my G19 bores ever again. Not a hint of fouling, over 1k bullets later. I have not loaded nor shot a plated bullet, now, in about two years.
Fast forward a couple years. I decided to give those same MBC bullets a second try. I never measured pulled bullets back then, but I suspected the expander might make a difference. FTR, I'm now using an NOE .356/.360 expander. I didn't have any of those bullets left, so I ordered another 500 of the same Small Ball pills. When I got them, I put calipers on them, and I was disappointed to find they measured only .355 1/2" with my calipers. I hear of folks getting great results in their Glocks, using .357" boolits. And my first success was with the same. There is no way these tiny pills would shoot in a Glock, right?
Well, I shot a couple hundred of them over the weekend. Out of 3 Glocks. Two with stock barrels, and one with a LWD barrel. Everything looked fine in the field. Accuracy was good, and I didn't see any fouling. And when I got the guns home for a good cleaning, I got the final results. There was no lead fouling in any of the bores. The brass is the same mixed brass I was using back then. OAL is the same. The only thing that changed was the load. I have since backed off my load by 2 tenths of a grain for reasons unrelated to fouling.
Anyway, I thought that was very interesting. Regular .356" cast (maybe even on the smaller side of .356") bullets are shooting great out of multiple Glock 9mm's. And all it took was the proper expander plug. I have read multiple firsthand experiences that seem to show that case-swaging doesn't happen with commercial 18 BHN .356 bullets in 9mm. And at this point, I don't know if it ever did happen. But I am pretty sure the expander made all the difference.
I have also had a similar experience with 40SW, in both stock Glocks and another 40SW with a button cut bore. But in this case, I had to make a custom expander. I couldn't find one off-the-shelf, anywhere.
edit to add
Before making the custom 40cal expander, and using the regular Lee expander: First attempt was with commercial bullets. Had pretty bad fouling out of a Glock bore. I ended up shooting them all out of an FNX, and needing to scrub the bore, regularly. Home cast bullets were worse (presumably due to the softer alloy). When I finally made a custom expander, I tried MBC, sized to 401 (calipers show 401 - 401 1/2). I made the expander to the exact same diameter of the bullets. There was just a tiny hint of fouling in one of my Glocks with a tight chamber at the mouth. The fouling was just past the leade, and it easily came out with a regular bore brush; I have not kept Chore Boys around in a good long while. After sorting out my thick cases, I tried again, and got no fouling out of that gun, nor my two other 40 caliber firearms.
FTR, at one point I made a few rounds of cast 10mm using the regular Lee expander, and I couldn't measure the base of a pulled bullet. I had used new Starline brass, and the bullets would not pull. I couldn't even get them out by screwing a wood screw into the nose and pulling them with my press. After just about breaking my press and bench, the screw eventually tore out of the bullet. I ended up having to run them through the FCD to pull the rounds. Who knew a 180 grain cast bullet would be able to stick that tight in a case, where whacking it dozens of times in a kinetic puller on solid concrete can't even budge it?
I think at some point, I may have to dig up my old Lee 9mm expander and load up some of the Small Ball, so I can pull the bullets and measure the bases. I am curious if there is any perceivable/measurable swagging going on, of if there might be an even more insidious issue. Lead galling on the inside of the case due to too much tension?? With all the folks who swear that powder coating is the ONLY way for them to shoot cast 9mm, and insist that their bullets are not being case-swaged, I almost expect nothing there for me to measure/detect.
The beginning:
My first attempt at shooting cast bullets in 9mm went rather poorly. MBC Small Ball, 18 BHN, .356", 125 grain bullets over 5.0 grains Unique in a Glock 19. I used both a stock barrel and a LWD. Minimal crimp, not even removing quite all of the flare. No FCD. OAL was about as long as I could fit mag/chamber, as I recall.
Fouling was moderate in the LWD barrel, showing up in certain patches of the bore, not super concentrated in any one area. Fouling was moderate to heavy in the stock Glock barrel, full bore, after just one shot. Accuracy was pretty bad in both barrels. Usable within 20-25 yards, anyhow. But I couldn't keep them in a 30 foot circle at 100 yards. The LWD barrel was probably more accurate, but that barrel is for my subcompact, which I never did shoot that well, so it was hard to quantify.
I shot up all 1000 I had ordered, anyhow. I learned to put a couple plated pills in each mag to keep the fouling from building up, and I cleaned the bore after each outing. I actually preferentially shot them out of the stock Glock barrel, because it was easier to clean. Then I went back to plated bullets.
At some point, I tried MBC bullets in my Glock 21, and they shot super clean and super accurate. No fouling.
So then I tried casting my own 9mm bullets. Straight WW for alloy, Lee tumble lube 125 gr mold. I shot them unsized, at .357ish, tumble lubed with Alox. First attempt, fouling was ridiculous. After one shot, there was so much lead in the bore, I stopped. I had to use a sharpened brass tube to scrape the lead out in big strips and chunks.
So about this time, I learned about case-swaging. I read some info on the Cast Boolits sticky. I pulled some of my bullets and measured the base as small as .353". I ordered a Lee 38SW expander for my Lee dies, and I tried again. I have been shooting those bullets ever after, and I have not scrubbed fouling from my G19 bores ever again. Not a hint of fouling, over 1k bullets later. I have not loaded nor shot a plated bullet, now, in about two years.
Fast forward a couple years. I decided to give those same MBC bullets a second try. I never measured pulled bullets back then, but I suspected the expander might make a difference. FTR, I'm now using an NOE .356/.360 expander. I didn't have any of those bullets left, so I ordered another 500 of the same Small Ball pills. When I got them, I put calipers on them, and I was disappointed to find they measured only .355 1/2" with my calipers. I hear of folks getting great results in their Glocks, using .357" boolits. And my first success was with the same. There is no way these tiny pills would shoot in a Glock, right?
Well, I shot a couple hundred of them over the weekend. Out of 3 Glocks. Two with stock barrels, and one with a LWD barrel. Everything looked fine in the field. Accuracy was good, and I didn't see any fouling. And when I got the guns home for a good cleaning, I got the final results. There was no lead fouling in any of the bores. The brass is the same mixed brass I was using back then. OAL is the same. The only thing that changed was the load. I have since backed off my load by 2 tenths of a grain for reasons unrelated to fouling.
Anyway, I thought that was very interesting. Regular .356" cast (maybe even on the smaller side of .356") bullets are shooting great out of multiple Glock 9mm's. And all it took was the proper expander plug. I have read multiple firsthand experiences that seem to show that case-swaging doesn't happen with commercial 18 BHN .356 bullets in 9mm. And at this point, I don't know if it ever did happen. But I am pretty sure the expander made all the difference.
I have also had a similar experience with 40SW, in both stock Glocks and another 40SW with a button cut bore. But in this case, I had to make a custom expander. I couldn't find one off-the-shelf, anywhere.
edit to add
Before making the custom 40cal expander, and using the regular Lee expander: First attempt was with commercial bullets. Had pretty bad fouling out of a Glock bore. I ended up shooting them all out of an FNX, and needing to scrub the bore, regularly. Home cast bullets were worse (presumably due to the softer alloy). When I finally made a custom expander, I tried MBC, sized to 401 (calipers show 401 - 401 1/2). I made the expander to the exact same diameter of the bullets. There was just a tiny hint of fouling in one of my Glocks with a tight chamber at the mouth. The fouling was just past the leade, and it easily came out with a regular bore brush; I have not kept Chore Boys around in a good long while. After sorting out my thick cases, I tried again, and got no fouling out of that gun, nor my two other 40 caliber firearms.
FTR, at one point I made a few rounds of cast 10mm using the regular Lee expander, and I couldn't measure the base of a pulled bullet. I had used new Starline brass, and the bullets would not pull. I couldn't even get them out by screwing a wood screw into the nose and pulling them with my press. After just about breaking my press and bench, the screw eventually tore out of the bullet. I ended up having to run them through the FCD to pull the rounds. Who knew a 180 grain cast bullet would be able to stick that tight in a case, where whacking it dozens of times in a kinetic puller on solid concrete can't even budge it?
I think at some point, I may have to dig up my old Lee 9mm expander and load up some of the Small Ball, so I can pull the bullets and measure the bases. I am curious if there is any perceivable/measurable swagging going on, of if there might be an even more insidious issue. Lead galling on the inside of the case due to too much tension?? With all the folks who swear that powder coating is the ONLY way for them to shoot cast 9mm, and insist that their bullets are not being case-swaged, I almost expect nothing there for me to measure/detect.