45-70 Trapdoor Springfield loads 5744 and card wad with filler

[craig61a]

I have been reading about loads that use 5744, a .030" milk carton wad and filler, such as cornmeal for the 45-70. Now I've read that some people use it to good effect, while others swear that it will ring the chamber, blow up, etc.

I'm interested in hearing from anybody that uses a load like I described and what their experience has been as I would like to try this.

Thanks -

[40-82 hiker]

When Johann Laubser (sp ?) was the chief ballastician for Western Powders, he told me in a number of phone conversations to NOT use any fillers of any type with 5744. I have read that some do on CB and like doing so if I remember correctly. I use 5744 in three BP rifles and I get very good results w/o fillers or cards. A TD, an '86 Win., and a RB.

I guess each to his own. I am just relaying the official position of Western powders regarding fillers and 5744. Or at least a few years ago.

[craig61a]

Well I've done some more reading on the subject, and I came across an older post from Buckshot where he put a card wad over powder and ringed some brass (using a harder barrel). I guess I don't want to take a chance with my old trapdoor springfield (has an excellent bore that grooves at .458"). Thing is though I have run 5744 through it with 1.5 gr of PolyFil and get unburned kernals; I was hoping that using the above mentioned method would help to avoid that, but I'm not wiling to take the chance of ringing the chamber.

[40-82 hiker]

Well I've done some more reading on the subject, and I came across an older post from Buckshot where he put a card wad over powder and ringed some brass (using a harder barrel). I guess I don't want to take a chance with my old trapdoor springfield (has an excellent bore that grooves at .458"). Thing is though I have run 5744 through it with 1.5 gr of PolyFil and get unburned kernals; I was hoping that using the above mentioned method would help to avoid that, but I'm not wiling to take the chance of ringing the chamber.

Johann also stated the unburned grains were the nature of the beast, and do not effect the accuracy of the product, or the load ballistics. I find them myself, but just ignore them. I have read where some find them objectionable, but I get very consistent results with 5744 and use it with confidence.

[StrawHat]

I use 5744 in a couple of different cartridges, 45-70, 50-70 and 405 WCF. No wads and good results. The two -70s are both trapdoors, the 405 in a Winchester 1895. Surprisingly, they all use the same weight of powder. Maybe that is not a surprise as they all have about the same internal capacity.

I see some unburned grains but have not noticed any negatives otherwise.

Kevin

[rfd]

aa5744 does not require a case filler of any kind. just charge the case, push in a wad (card, veggie, carton, whatever), seat the bullet.

[Nobade]

No wads needed either. Nothing but powder and bullet, works great.

-Nobade

[craig61a]

I'll have to wade through this thread some more, but this is kinda what I was looking for...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?35580-Cream-of-Wheat-filler-in-the-Trapdoor

[rfd]

i've searched, read, and thought a Lot about all manner of case fillers ... nope, no thanks.

[40-82 hiker]

No wads needed either. Nothing but powder and bullet, works great.

-Nobade

I agree completely. I would think filler and cards would be used where they are 1) safe to use, and 2) meet a given need. AA5744 is a very unique powder, made to fit a very specific need with large BP cartridges, though it can be used in many other casings. The company that sells it states fillers are not to be used. I was told on the phone that fillers are not to be used. Good enough for me...

I'm truly not sure what the seemingly unburned grains are all about, but they are totally immaterial to accuracy, at least IMHO. My 1884 TD, with 5744, is as accurate as most any modern-made rifle when I position shoot with it. I don't bench shoot, as my back and pelvis cannot tolerate it, but I shoot sitting on the ground (w/o sticks), unless offhand. Here are a few TD targets I took photos of the day I settled on my load with AA5744 (shot sitting). Any discussion about unburned grains, and filler or not ends here with me. Each to his own... I'm sure others could do better off of the bench, or even sitting, but I can't bench shoot due to my disabilities.

August 13, 2013

50 yards sitting (target is 25 yard slow fire pistol target)
136814

60 yards sitting (target is 25 yard slow fire pistol target)
136815

100 yards sitting (target is 100 yard slow fire rifle target)
136816

[rfd]

... I'm truly not sure what the seemingly unburned grains are all about, but they are totally immaterial to accuracy, at least IMHO....

direct from accurate arms ...

"Un-burnt powder granules:


Although, this is a powder recommended for reduced/low performance loads, it cannot be completely efficient (clean burning) at very low Pressure/performance levels of <18000psi.


It still is a modern, high-density, smokeless powder, with limitations regarding complete combustion at very low chamber pressures. With nitro-cellulose based “Modern” powders, the burn rate and pressure are directly proportional.


This means that some level of un-burnt powder will be present, constituting the remainder of some of the powder granules. This cannot be improved with primers or crimp etc, the only way to eliminate this, is an increase in chamber-pressure."

[Nobade]

I have seen it do that repeatedly. It's easy to get it to burn clean in bottleneck modern cartridges like the 308 or others, but by the time you load enough in a 45-70 to get it to burn clean you are generating so much recoil you can't stand to shoot it. But as others have noted, it doesn't seem to matter.

Oh, as a point of trivia, according to Quickload, it is the only truly digressive powder available. Odd stuff.

-Nobade

[MikeA]

I posted about powders, etc... I found in my rolling block that 4198 is a little more accurate in mine alone but both are excellent. I used 32+ on a 405 cast bullet. Seemed more efficient. Just my one cent.

[Toymaker]

I've used both 4759 and 5744 in 45-70 rolling blocks with a 405 grain bullet. Instead of a cardboard wad and/or cornmeal/cream of wheat etc filler I just use the biodegradable packing peanuts you can get at a stationary store. It did not improve accuracy with either rifle. I load for my brother and he has an original trapdoor that LOVES the peanut packing. The rifle shoots a "pattern" without it and a 4 inch "group" with it. When we first started we carefully checked the bores for any sign of unusual residue and found none. Checked the cases for bulging and primers for flattening and found nothing. Checked as best we could for any indication of barrel bulge = nothing. Velocity differences between the "unfilled" and "filled" cases vary between 50 and 75 fps, which doesn't seem like enough to account for the improvement in accuracy, but it does.
Figure how high the powder charge comes up the case and how far down the bullet is in the case. Cut the end off a peanut so the bullet presses it down about 1/8 inch. Put the uncut end of the peanut against the powder. My powder charges were 23.5 grains of either 4759 or 5744. His charge is 33 grains 3031.

[rfd]

"card" wads aren't intended as fillers, they serve other purposes such as protecting the bullet base, aiding in cleaning out the barrel, holding in the powder for breach loading, keeping any bullet lube away from the powder and other reasons i'm sure. but not as a case filler. in my testing, card wads (in my case, milk carton and newspaper) increased the consistent accuracy of my .45-70 roller at 200 yards.

aa5744 requires no case fillers ...

accurate arms on their 5744 - "The powder is virtually insensitive to powder position, and there is no need for “fillers”. It will deliver consistent results at low performance levels. Although there will be some un-burnt powder the performance will remain consistent."

[Chill Wills]

I like to use about 1/2 grain of Dacron Polyester fiber ( fluffed ! ) over light loads in obsolete BP cases as well as in the 45 Gov., which is very much like one; Popularity being the only difference between the 45-70 and other much more obscure cases from the era. All have a great deal of room for a small charge of smokeless powder.

I know the Accurate quote - no surprise there. There are tens of millions of anti 2nd types that will quote experts saying to even be in the same room with a firearm is crazy, much less handling LEAD!
I think everyone needs to make there own choice based on how knowledgeable and capable they are, doing what we do.

Here is my "case" based on my test for using fibers to hold the powder charge back to the rear of the case.
Both chronograph and target show the improvements of using fibers. The same loads with out the fiber retaining the powder to the rear of the case shows a larger group on paper and wider velocity spread on the chronograph. The chronograph also shows the wide difference in velocity from when the loaded rifle is tipped back to get the powder in the rear or tipped muzzle down to get the powder charge bunched up behind the bullet before it is fired. The result of this kind of powder positioning also shows and large impact difference as well.

No rifles were hurt or killed making this movie. Many many thousands of rounds are down range doing this and I am going to keep at it.
Michael Rix

[Chill Wills]

Figure how high the powder charge comes up the case and how far down the bullet is in the case. Cut the end off a peanut so the bullet presses it down about 1/8 inch. Put the uncut end of the peanut against the powder. My powder charges were 23.5 grains of either 4759 or 5744. His charge is 33 grains 3031.

Toymaker, that is resourceful - the peanuts are a good idea. I have used floral foam. Maybe about the same density. It becomes nothing when the big red light comes on.

[Don McDowell]

Quarter square of toilet paper loosely rolled and dropped into the case works fairly decent.

[Litl Red 3991]

The last loads I tested using 5744 filled a big old 45-70 case just about half full. The velocity spread was close to nothing. The average it differed from shot to shot was about 10fps. Yeah, there were some unburned grains. Since the rifle did a couple of 2-3 inch groups at 200yds, I didn't let the unburned grains, or the pitifully small loading density bother me.

Been using a chronograph for years when working up loads. Discovered when it first came out it's one of the most dependable velocity generators we can buy. OK, it's not as good as black powder at giving almost no velocity spread, but by darn if it's not a very close second.

No fillers needed. None ever used with 5744. It was designed to do what it does. Something you don't always find.

[rfd]

exactly what litl red 3991 typed.

when the manufacturer of 5744 tells you "there is no need for (case) fillers" and "there will be some un-burnt powder (but) the performance will remain consistent", why persist to feel the need to devise case fillers to add to yer 5744 case charge?

knowing that there is at least some risk using case fillers, and being told they're not needed ... geez, why bother?

[craig61a]

Some people use fillers and seem to have success, while others don't... as for pressure, the amount of pressure required to get a clean burn on 5744 would be too great for a trapdoor built over 130 years ago. And fillers may increase pressures to levels that are great enough to provide a spike that will ring a chamber... but as I mentioned in post # 3, I'm not about to experiment with an expensive rifle.

So to boil it all down, an over-powder wad isn't a good idea in this application. Fillers, depending on the type, can stretch cases and thin brass, plug, or push pressures too high.

And some guy that goes by the handle Double D mentions on BritishMilitaria forum that the manufacturer of 5744 stated that fillers could be used. So there are no hard and fast rules. But as I said I'm not willing to experiment with my trapdoors.

[rfd]

accurate arms never states that fillers can't be used with 5744, but they do specifically state that fillers are not needed ...


What makes Accurate 5744 such a special and unique product? (http://www.accuratepowder.com/faq/#section8)

It can best be described as a fast burning Rifle or slow burning Magnum handgun double base “hybrid” powder, having the typical chemical composition of handgun powders i.e. 20% NG – and the geometry of a typical extruded single perforated rifle powder.

Rifle applications:
This makes the powder very ignitable, which makes it ideal for low loading density applications, such as reduced loads on bottle neck rifle calibers, and low performance “straight case” designs, such as the old “black powder” calibers i.e. 45-70 45-110 50-110 etc.

The powder is virtually insensitive to powder position, and there is no need for “fillers”. It will deliver consistent results at low performance levels. Although there will be some un-burnt powder (see paragraph below) the performance will remain consistent.

Due to its ignitability, any strength rifle primer can be used.

Handgun applications:
This powder makes for an excellent powder in large capacity handgun calibers such as 44/45 “Magnum” types or “std” cases with similar capacities. With some of these calibers full power or close to full power is achievable, usually at full case/maximum loading densities. The powder can also be at reduced levels in handgun calibers, but with same effect re un-burnt powder. (See paragraph below)

Un-burnt powder granules:
Although, this is a powder recommended for reduced/low performance loads, it cannot be completely efficient (clean burning) at very low Pressure/performance levels of <18000psi.

It still is a modern, high-density, smokeless powder, with limitations regarding complete combustion at very low chamber pressures. With nitro-cellulose based “Modern” powders, the burn rate and pressure are directly proportional.

This means that some level of un-burnt powder will be present, constituting the remainder of some of the powder granules. This cannot be improved with primers or crimp etc, the only way to eliminate this, is an increase in chamber-pressure.

[John Boy]

Scroll to the bottom of the site for 5744 & other loading data ... http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

[40-82 hiker]

Scroll to the bottom of the site for 5744 & other loading data ... http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

This is a great read that John Boy has given us a link to. I have met a number of people over the decades who just gave up on their TDs because they would not group at all, though for all appearances they had a very nice TD barrel. Has this been the problem for them all along? I don't know, but who would have thought to look?

Quote from linked article (I'm not "shouting", the font is from the web article itself):

Marksman Tip: Check Your Cleaning Rod Stop Tom Trevor and Don Harpold found the following problem that can cause inaccuracy in your rifle. During the September 1999, outing of the Burbank Muzzle Loaders (primarily black powder cartridge shooters) it was noticed that Tom's .45-70 trapdoor rifle had a broken cleaning rod lock(stop). The cleaning rod stop is located in the forestock and held in place by the front band spring and stock recess. Under normal firing, the barrel is not touched by the stop. However, when the stop is broken as in the photograph, the firing recoil causes the rod to move forward which rotates the forward end of the stop up into the bottom of the barrel binding the barrel between the stop and the barrel band. This has been found to cause a drastic fall off in accuracy in rifles known to be accurate shooting arms. At the annual September 1999 Springfield shoot, six rifles out of thirty-five had broken stops. It seems the stop would be one of the last things to consider if an accuracy problem develops, but it is something that should be checked. Guns with the broken stop seemed to perform much better after the stop was replaced.
For more infomation on the problem or the Burbank Shooting Club, please contact Tom Trevor at 818-360-9064 or Don Harpold at Dwharpold@aol.com (Dwharpold@aol.com)



http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/pics_html/stop1.jpg

[Chill Wills]

accurate arms never states that fillers can't be used with 5744, but they do specifically state that fillers are not needed ...


I will continue to use the Dracron fiber for the reasons stated above. In my application the fibers make a useful improvement. There are applications that it simply improves the load.
Reading these posts, it feels like having a difference than the norm or deviating from the path is cause for some people to go into overdrive pushing their point home.
I am a live and let live guy. There are a lot of right ways to do things.

I completely support those of you who color between the lines.

Respectfully, Michael Rix

[craig61a]

I will continue to use the Dracron fiber for the reasons stated above. In my application the fibers make a useful improvement. There are applications that it simply improves the load.
Reading these posts, it feels like having a difference than the norm or deviating from the path is cause for some people to go into overdrive pushing there point home.
I am a live and let live guy. There are a lot of right ways to do things.

I completely support those of you who color between the lines.

Respectfully, Michael Rix

Yes - this thread went off topic quite quickly... I look at it as if nobody ever experimented, then we wouldn't have some of the techniques and practices we now have. I have used 5744 and PolyFil and got good results in my 45-70. My initial query was to whether anybody had tried what I had read about and described in the OP. I'm kind of new to reloading for old blackpowder cartridge rifles, although I have been reloading for over 10 years. 6 years ago I started pouring my own.

With the acquisition of Sniders, Martinis, and a few other odds and ends over the last several years I have learned that it's a whole new set of challenges working with smokeless loads in things that were originally designed for black powder. But for me that's the fun of it; just as long as I don't destroy an expensive rifle or myself.

Hence the reason for the original post. I check things out to see if they are reasonably sound by asking questions.

[craig61a]

BTW, I just use 2F in the Sniders and Martinis, with the exception of .303 Martini-Enfield carbine which I have used 4198 in; I'm looking at using 380 in though since I've had good results using it in my Krags...

[40-82 hiker]

I'm learning here as we go. I am glad to hear that those using fillers are doing so safely. That was my only concern. I certainly was under another impression based on conversations I had with AA a couple of years ago concerning 5744. It appears my TD load is as accurate as I can ask for w/o filler, but some appear to be improving their loads with fillers. I still will not use fillers, but that is my decision, and I'm really not trying to sell that opinion. However, I'm glad there are those who are convincing me there is seemingly no safety issue involved, at least with a straight wall case.

What I don't understand is the disparity between the two camps. One would think there would be more of a black and white picture of this issue. That certainly is not the case. My '86 Win. very much likes my load with 5744 w/o filler equally well. Certainly this is an example of how disparate results can be seen in our sport from person to person.

I'm still not sure why fillers are needed if 5744 is supposedly insensitive to position, but some prove that to not be true. ?? :veryconfu The enigma continues...

[Toymaker]

I just completed 2 days of shooting 5744 in my 45-70 rolling block using a 500-458 bullet (dropped 519 grains). All told, it was a tad over 100 rounds - some from a rest position, some off-hand. I had a filler in some and not in others. The cases were marked; my spotter picked a cartridge out of the box, wiped off the marking and handed it to me. Sometimes he handed them to me upside down, sometimes up right, sometimes sideways. I tried to loaded gently and then shoot then handed the case back to him, he recorded. It was a hit or miss competition, not for score.
According to him, with my rifle, there was no statistical difference. So I'm going to skip the filler step. But when I shoot I'll probably hold the muzzle up and give the stock a thump. Just to be sure. ;-)