440gr Lee in 500 S&W ?

[Motor]

I'll try to make this very specific.

Pistol: 500 S&W

The intention: Hunt Whitetail deer in WV and PA.

Boolit: 440gr Lee

I would like to keep velocity around 1200 to 1300

I use a lead/linotype alloy.

What boolit hardness would you shoot for?

Do you think this is good choice for the task?

Thanks,

Motor

[cherokeetracker]

Shooting the 440grain is OK for hunting deer or actually a lot of other critters. Hardness,, you should use at least 22BHN, and you can use 12- 13gr of Titegroup which should give you your choice of range on the velocity. lead /linotype alloy is fine with 80WW/20lead or close to that. Cast Performance has some nice 440gr w/gas check in case you where not aware of them.
You did not give a preference of the powder but from experience I had good luck with LIL Gun and even liked VHT N110 better than H110 LiL Gun usually gives less pressure than H110 and same velocities. Have you tried any of these in the Cold weather? Not Picking on H110 but it is hard to ignite in colder weather. I am only offering you my experience. Not telling you what to do.
Never ask the last question...... LOL But I will be nice about this... From the standpoint of the 500 ? Yes I would much rather use this bullet than all the others I used in that caliber. I used the Hornady XTPs, the lever action Bullet ( red tipped) and several Barnes, and of course the lead 440gr. My 1st choice is my 45Long Colt caliber 2nd choice is my 44mag and I would rather shoot my 454 than to carry those heavy 500s ever again. See what I mean? about that last question?

[Motor]

Thanks for the reply. I don't know what to say. I sent my older brother to the shop to get me a pound of powder and he buys this 500 for me. A birthday gift. This is the 3rd one he bought. I figure you don't look a gift horse in the face, right?

He has used full power j-word in his as does my younger brother for deer but last year we did a little experiment.

I loaded some Lee 250gr REAL with 12gr Unique. The accuracy was nearly hole in hole at 50 yards. Seating was a little strange because of the REAL's diameter so next time around I bought a Lee .501 size die and sized them. The accuracy was still excellent.

The 250s were cast to around 14bhn. At this hardness and light load (12gr Unique) the 250 did a complete pass through without expanding at 40 yards on a adult doe. As luck would have it the boolit also shot through the center of the heart. She reared up ran about 15 yards then fell.

I wanted something a little harder hitting but also something that would not tear the skin off my palm from recoil. :)

The Lee 440gr seems to fit that bill. I'll very likely try Unique first. I have the Lyman cast bullet manual and there is data for it. I'll also go un-checked. I'm pretty sure if a muzzleloader boolit cast to 12-14 bhn can work without a gas check the 440gr will too.

Motor

[reloader28]

Personally I think your plenty hard.
We aint shot anything with it yet, but I wouldnt be a bit scared to use a lighter load with that heavy, huge meplat boolit.
We are using air cooled clip on WW. I make the boolits for my brothers gun, and he likes them loaded hot for griz protection so he's not screwed around much with lighter loads.
With this heavy Lee boolit, anything around 1000fps would work fine even lengthwise thru any deer and be more fun to shoot. With my WW I think it runs around 14 BHN and we have'nt really had any ploblems loading to the upper end with this. I dont know the powder he's using.

We aint tested these .500 Lee loads yet, I'm just going by the big 44 and 45 Lee's we've tested.
Maybe we should test these now as I have a stockpile of milk jugs and a niehbor with a butcher shop so I can get a shoulder bone.

[stubert]

12 - 14 bhn is all you need. 22 is way to hard. Get out of the hardcast mindset. Hardcast is good for shipping purposes or hi speed rifle.

[Motor]

Very good info guys. Thanks,

Motor

[MT Chambers]

I agree with stubert.....even 20-1 or 16-1 would be best at those speeds and pressure levels, you only need harder if your loading that gun to Max. With the softer alloy you should get some expansion and it won't be brittle. In the old days alot of large and dangerous game was killed with soft lead going 1200 fps, much tougher game than a skinny whitetail.

[leftiye]

Heat treated or water dropped alloys of 50/50 and the like (.5% tin, 3% antimony, etc.) still retain their toughness. Yes, they still won't expand unless necessary terminal velocity is attained. Add .5% copper for even more toughness. Up to 10 % tin will alloy.

[BAGTIC]

I believe H110 and L'il Gun will be too slow. I don't have a .500 pistol just one of the H&R rifles. According to QL a far faster powder such as Herco at a much better charge density is desirable in that short a barrel. It shows the two slower powders will require 80% +/- more powder to equal that velocity, with a very low charge density, and there will be a LOT of unburned powder.

[frank505]

Wes Daems of 7X Leather shoots my 450 Keith gas check with 13 of Unique out of his four inch. Likes it a lot.

[Motor]

For what I want there is only one powder choice and that is Unique. frank505, I will most likely go with 12gr Unique. That is the start load in the Lyman cast data manual. The velocity is good on paper but the test barrel was a 10" not a 8 3/8" but I don't think it will matter much.

I already shoot a 250gr Lee REAL sized to .501" with 12gr Unique. That load has takin a adult whitetail. I'm sure the 440 will even be better. Much better.

I hope to cast some this weekend.

H-110 and L'il Gun are supposed to be 2 of the best 500 mag powders but for top end loads not sub-sonic stuff.

Motor

[MBTcustom]

12 - 14 bhn is all you need. 22 is way to hard. Get out of the hardcast mindset. Hardcast is good for shipping purposes or hi speed rifle.

Well said. No offense to any one present, but this here is the TRUTH, straight up.
Bullet hardness has been used as a placebic crutch for decades, and it's time to get smart about it. It's not about using bullets that are "hard enough" or "soft enough". It's about using the right hardness for the job.

[Motor]

Cast some 440s Sunday night. I never cast anything this big there was some learning to do. The new Lee dies don't have much "meat" to them and this big boolit heats it up fast. I really don't mind frosted boolits though because I think they hold A-Lox lube better.

Most dropped at .499" to .500" and from the sample lot I weighed I was pleased with how close they were for such a large hunk of alloy.

I also cast some hollow based mini's. These dropped at around 359gr. I was concidering loading them like hollow points but they are smaller on the body than at the top so I'm going to try them as hollow base wadd cutters. These look like 50 caliber tumble lube almost flat nosed slugs for those of you not familure with it. Yeah its a muzzleloader boolit. :)

Motor

[44man]

I use a 440 in my JRH and at about 22 bhn is WAY too hard at around 1350 fps. That hardness works in the .44 and .475 but boolit weight will also work against you in the .500. Paper punch city.
Soften and see how good or do like I did, soften half the nose and watch deer drop right now. I use PB so I want hard drive bands for accuracy but it will be wrong many times because you want some expansion. I would prefer to use nothing but pure lead but I also need to hit what I shoot at with smokeless powders. There is the crutch.
I know it is funny to hear me say that but dang it depends on what you are shooting.
The best thing I ever did was cast a soft nose on a hard base, pop can accurate at 100 but deer killer supreme. Find accuracy with softer and kill better. Too hard in the .500 and it will not know a deer was in the way. Might start to work at deer number 4 in line!
Drop the Alox, use a better lube. Casting to frost can make boolits too small, you need .501".

[Motor]

44man, Thanks for the tips. I will definatly have to check out the non-frosted diameter next time. Not all I did this last session were frosted but most were .499 to .500"

They are between 12 and 14bhn. Loaded with 14gr of Unique. I will range test them this weekend.

Just going from the results of the 255gr REAL I doubt I'll have any trouble killing a deer with the metplat these 440s have. Even if they don't expand. :)

Motor

[Tar Heel]

Bingo on using the correct hardness for the job. Here are shots of a brand new Uberti Cattleman with the first 100 rounds through the gun. Used a AM 45-250D mold to cast bullets at 11 BHN and lubed with NRA 50/50 lube. Not a hint of leading at 900 fps. Save the 24 BHN for high power rifles at >2200 fps.

138368 138369

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[Motor]

Shot the cast boolits today. Some minor leading was observed but no accumulating lead.

The 440s as well as the 359gr mini ball muzzleloader boolit shot good. I'm going to go ahead and try 13gr instead of 14gr Unique with the next bunch of 440s. I don't think 100f/s is going to make much difference on a deer.

We shot some more of the 250gr REAL muzzleloader boolits too. Those things are just stupid accurate. It's unreal.

Motor

[44man]

Hard or soft does not mean leading the bore, too many other things affect that. But I really think you need some upset with the .500.
I am a hard boolit nut but that is not always true. I am going more for a soft nose with hard drive for accuracy now days. The alloy that works is fine as long as you do not lose accuracy. 50-50 works too if oven hardened but you might blow a deer to smoke too.
I am partial to instant kills without using a sponge.

[Motor]

Hard or soft does not mean leading the bore, too many other things affect that. But I really think you need some upset with the .500.
I am a hard boolit nut but that is not always true. I am going more for a soft nose with hard drive for accuracy now days. The alloy that works is fine as long as you do not lose accuracy. 50-50 works too if oven hardened but you might blow a deer to smoke too.
I am partial to instant kills without using a sponge.

Thanks again for the input. I really believe I need to get the 440s to drop larger. The next time I cast I will work on that. If I have to I'll alter the mould. .499-.500 in a .500 GD just dosen't seem good to me. Although it could work if the boolits are soft enough but I'd rather have them at least .501"

The 250 REAL drops at around .506" with its large narrow ring like driving bands. When I size them to .501" I get decent width bands and nice deep lube grooves. I load these with 12gr Unique and as I stated several times they shoot very accurate and do not lead the bore. They are cast to 12bhn with the same lead/linotype alloy as the 440s.

Motor

[xacex]

I push the lee 501-440 to 1450 FPS out of a Beowulf with 10 BHN without issue. As long as you have lube, and a gas check you can go pretty soft. I would want it as soft as I could while still maintaining accuracy because you can still get expansion on bone with the softer alloy with that boolit. Like you need expansion anyway. It is one of my most accurate boolits for the wolf. I am working on a load for the NOE 435 grain H/P right now. It comes to 420 grains, and seems to be as accurate as the lee. Lots of bearing surface with both of those designs, but I think the hollow point on the NOE is a bit excessive.

[44man]

Thanks again for the input. I really believe I need to get the 440s to drop larger. The next time I cast I will work on that. If I have to I'll alter the mould. .499-.500 in a .500 GD just dosen't seem good to me. Although it could work if the boolits are soft enough but I'd rather have them at least .501"

The 250 REAL drops at around .506" with its large narrow ring like driving bands. When I size them to .501" I get decent width bands and nice deep lube grooves. I load these with 12gr Unique and as I stated several times they shoot very accurate and do not lead the bore. They are cast to 12bhn with the same lead/linotype alloy as the 440s.

Motor
Cast cooler so there is no frost and boolits will be larger. Do not look for expansion to fit . Fit first.
22 bhn or more shoots best but is too hard for deer. Just 1/8" of nose softer with a mix of 3# of pure with 1# of WW metal turned my gun into a thunder stick. Thor's hammer! I water drop too.

[Motor]

Tried everything today to get the 440gr to come out bigger. It half worked but the mould don't fill well when it's on the not hot side. I ended up "beagling" it and letting them come out a little frosted.

All of them got at least some contact with the .501" size die so I'm calling it mission accomplished.

All of my older Lee moulds drop a little on the big side. These new ones (210gr .410 and 440gr .501") both want to drop on the low side.

Motor

[Motor]

I found something interesting. My brother wanted a little more speed than what 13gr of Unique provides.

I don't have any gas checks but we do have linotype so we made some hard cast boolits for it.

I loaded these with the Lyman start load of 27.5gr Lil Gun which in there 10" test barrel produced 1450f/s.

We're shooting a 8 3/8" so we shouldn't be too far off that.

The load shoots as accurate as any but the interesting thing is it dosn't recoil in proportion with the gain in velocity over the subsonic Unique load.

It only kicks a little harder and can be shot bare handed. Plus POI at 50 yards between the 2 don't require sight movement.

The Lil Gun load is producing about 10,000psi more. The explanation we can come up with is that the slower burning powder combined with the higher pressure is making the guns break have more useful effect.

It will be interesting to see how each performs on deer this coming season.

Motor

[44man]

NO HP, you will need to run quick and catch meat on the fly! :bigsmyl2:
I would think 1200 fps with the .500 is ideal and hard would work. it is when you start to jack up velocities that a tiny amount of expansion needs to enter.
I did not get carried away with the JRH and used 3# of pure with 1# of WW for just half the nose. But I am at 1350 fps so I made a hole punch with too hard.
I want a hard drive since my boolits are PB. You can soften more of the boolit with a GC. But beware about too soft or you need the sponge.
Anyone that thinks a revolver will not destroy a deer is crazy.

[xacex]

I found something interesting. My brother wanted a little more speed than what 13gr of Unique provides.

I don't have any gas checks but we do have linotype so we made some hard cast boolits for it.

I loaded these with the Lyman start load of 27.5gr Lil Gun which in there 10" test barrel produced 1450f/s.

We're shooting a 8 3/8" so we shouldn't be too far off that.

The load shoots as accurate as any but the interesting thing is it dosn't recoil in proportion with the gain in velocity over the subsonic Unique load.

It only kicks a little harder and can be shot bare handed. Plus POI at 50 yards between the 2 don't require sight movement.

The Lil Gun load is producing about 10,000psi more. The explanation we can come up with is that the slower burning powder combined with the higher pressure is making the guns break have more useful effect.

It will be interesting to see how each performs on deer this coming season.

Motor
Careful with lil gun. It will erode the forcing cone/throat of a revolver in short order. It may not be as much as a problem with the 500 smith, but with 357 mag, and other high pressure revolvers it has a bad reputation. I use it in the Beowulf and it will heat up a barrel faster than any other powder.

[gutpile]

I used this boolit in ACWW with 10 grains of unique in a handi rifle in 500 s&w. The big metp!at was hell on Indiana whitetails out to 100 yards or so......we never recovered one boolit......they work

[Whiterabbit]

I shoot about 425 grian gas check boolits in my 460 BFR. The alloy that seems to work best for me is hardball. BASICALLY (always confirmed with the excel alloy sheet) it ends up being a MFRB of COWW, a SFRB of type metal, and then needs a smidge of eutectic solder, maybe a half pound to a pound. Maybe a handful of hardened shot for the As, but not really needed. Yields about 100 pounds per batch when all is said and done.

No idea what it comes out to in hardness. Probably 12-14. If I use COWW or sweeten with hardened shot, I can waterdrop. Or just waterdrop anyways.

I cast to the temp that grows the boolits to the right diameter to snap the gas check on because seating them with a "peanut brittle hammer" is annoying.

I shoot them to 1430 fps in the BFR and it's about right. The accuracy FOR ME is excellent. Almost shot a 3" group at 100 yards the other day. One of my 5 shots opened it to 4". Honest group too, not the once in a lifetime.

Long winded and too many short paragraphs. All to say hardball (92/6/2) is what I aim for. 50/50 lino and lead(range scrap/SOWW/COWW) is a waste of lino IMO. More like 4-1 with some tin to sweeten it up a smidge and you are good to go. Add a gas check and you can go as fast as you please in your gun. Or not, and enjoy 1200 fps sweethearts.

[theleo]

This may be a really dumb question, but if you are getting a complete pass through with a 250 grain 50 caliber bullet what's the reason behind going up to 440 grains and killing the hillside deader?

[Motor]

This may be a really dumb question, but if you are getting a complete pass through with a 250 grain 50 caliber bullet what's the reason behind going up to 440 grains and killing the hillside deader?

The 250gr is cone shaped. It passed through like a full metal jacket. I had a hard time finding the exit hole.

If it didn't pass through the center of the heart I believe there would have been a lot more distance between where it shot and where it eventually would have died.

The 440gr will easily penetrate bone and with it's huge metplat will more reliable.

I'm sure the 250gr driven faster would be good too but at subsonic velocity it seems a little week.

Motor

[Whiterabbit]

This may be a really dumb question, but if you are getting a complete pass through with a 250 grain 50 caliber bullet what's the reason behind going up to 440 grains and killing the hillside deader?

Couple reasons. First, the real one. Sometimes we cannot leave enough alone. And why not? How many times have you had a rifle with a working load, accurate, fun, honkey-dorey, then decided out of the blue to qualify a new bullet or boolit? Can you count the number of times on one hand? how about two? :)

but second (if it were me), the reason would be to hunt a deer with a 500 S&W. Not a 50 AE. Which is basically what Motor has right now. Let's be honest. if you are shooting a lightweight round, super-reduced, what is the point of lugging around something so bulky and strongly built to do the job you could have done in a smaller package? If one likes a cartridge (for whatever reason) and likes it enough to use it to hunt, slog some miles with it, etc, may as well let the cartridge perform to the fullest. Otherwise, it makes the gun seem unjustified.

Reason #2 is arguable. But #1 is not :)

[44man]

Something to be said for that. I have never had more instant kills and such low meat loss since I went bigger. Just have to get the boolit correct. It would be like a .45 flint lock compared to a .54 RB. I do not think I ever shot a deer with the .54 that did not drop at the shot.
First, I want the most accurate the gun will do and that is usually a larger boolit.
Now the S&W .500 is too much for me, the JRH is a better fit for anything I do. The S&W would take more work to keep clean kills without a sponge to pick up burger and shattered bone is also a bugger.
More damage to the far hill means nothing, you might knock off a China mans hat.
I would not buy a .454 or .460 to shoot as a Colt or a .44 mag to shoot specials.
I can't see buying an X frame to shoot light stuff, you would be happier with a little .45 Colt or .44 special. That thing needs train wheels on it. Maybe a motor! :bigsmyl2:

[Motor]

Ahh but the size of it is what makes it sooo easy to shoot and to shoot accuratly. It is also what makes it non punishing to shoot boolits like the 440gr at 1450 f/s which is nothing to sneeze at.

Besides it still weighs less than any of my deer rifles.

I know this thing is not cheap but I am still amazed at how accurate they are (we have 3 of them) and how good the triggers are. I think it's an awesome hunting pistol and of all the pistols I find it much eaiser to shoot accuratly than most. Even with top end loads.

Motor

[44man]

Ahh but the size of it is what makes it sooo easy to shoot and to shoot accuratly. It is also what makes it non punishing to shoot boolits like the 440gr at 1450 f/s which is nothing to sneeze at.

Besides it still weighs less than any of my deer rifles.

I know this thing is not cheap but I am still amazed at how accurate they are (we have 3 of them) and how good the triggers are. I think it's an awesome hunting pistol and of all the pistols I find it much eaiser to shoot accuratly than most. Even with top end loads.

Motor

That, gun weight counts and is why I love the BFR frames, More weight for better control.
But I want accuracy for hunting and have never found it by shooting slow. Depends on your gun so if it works, GOOD. You don't need so fast for hunting. The JRH was too fast and heavy so I had to soften half the nose. To go to 1800 fps in a S&W for deer just makes a harder choice for a boolit/bullet.

[tdoyka]

or you can buy an tc encore with a MGM barrel that goes around 23". i almost did, but i bought the 444 marlin instead.

[dkf]

Careful with lil gun. It will erode the forcing cone/throat of a revolver in short order. It may not be as much as a problem with the 500 smith, but with 357 mag, and other high pressure revolvers it has a bad reputation. I use it in the Beowulf and it will heat up a barrel faster than any other powder.

Not to mention that Lil gun is very temp sensitive also.

[Motor]

Careful with lil gun. It will erode the forcing cone/throat of a revolver in short order. It may not be as much as a problem with the 500 smith, but with 357 mag, and other high pressure revolvers it has a bad reputation. I use it in the Beowulf and it will heat up a barrel faster than any other powder.

Thanks for the warning but considering the fact that the max load for a 300gr bullet is 48grs and I'm using a little more then half that amount ( the srart load from a cast bullet manual,) I don't think there is anything to worry about. :)

Temperature sensitivity is over rated. Especially for a hunting revolver.

Motor

[44man]

It is not how much or the pressure, the powder has little flame deterrent on it and it is HOT.