Rather Strange Article

[Bent Ramrod]

More or less out of the "blue," I got a copy of the Blue Press for May in the mail earlier this week. In it, Brian Dervin Dillon, who I am led to believe is a Ph.D in History, described a .50-70 Remington Rolling Block that an ancestor had bought from a saloon-keeper in Sausalito in 1920. The illustration is of a civilian model Rolling Block, well-used, with the grip repaired with rawhide. "Who knows what stories this old rifle could tell, etc., etc."

He then reviews the history of the Remington and the Sharps companies, bringing forth the argument that most of the real buffalo hunters out West used one of the "thousands" of Rolling Blocks that Remington produced, or, alternately, bought milsurp Trapdoor Springfields that the government was selling as it switched from .50-70 to .45-70.

He argues that the majority of the rifles on the buffalo ranges were Remington Rolling Blocks and Trapdoor Springfields, with only a relatively small proportion of Sharps rifles, and fewer still in the Sharps calibers that made the brand famous. He says the majority of Sharps were used by rich, effete target shooters back East, because both the rifles and the factory ammunition were too "rare and expensive" for most of the hunters on the plains. The few that used them out West were wealthy sportsmen on hunting trips. The Sharps became the legendary "Buffalo Gun" by means of being used in Wild West Shows, where the audience picked up on the brand name and made it legendary in an alleged triumph of public relations over actual fact.

I must confess that this article controverts about everything I ever read, heard or saw on the subject. There might have been more surplus Army rifles out there than Sharps rifles, but if I have my reading straight, they were in the hands of settlers or subsistence hunters rather than professional buff-runners. Maybe they would shoot a buffalo once in a while in the course of events, but they were not market hunters. Most of the "thousands" of Remington Rolling Blocks were made in metric calibers for foreign governments, and I would imagine their ammunition was as "rare and expensive" out on the plains as any of the Sharps calibers. I remember one contemporary reference to a hunter shooting something with his "Egyptian Remington," but that was it, although, admittedly, the description of guns the correspondents used is typically sparse or lacking in their hunting stories. Those military Rolling Blocks only showed up in huge numbers after WWII, when most of the nations of the world dumped theirs in the US to raise badly needed hard cash. I recall Sporting Model Remingtons in catalogs, and Target Models, but only Sharps offered a Business Model.

It always seemed to me, when I went to Gun Shows, that there were always more Sharps rifles on tables than civilian models of Remington Rolling Blocks, and very few I ever saw of either civilian or military were in .50-70. Marcot's book on Remington Rolling Blocks confirms this; the Company was so involved in military contracts that they could make relatively few civilian rifles and still thrive. The "rare and expensive factory ammunition" of whatever caliber, whether .50-90, .44-77 or whatever, was reloaded by most hunters to amortize the cost. Although it is true that some people were glad to get free .50-70 ammo from nearby forts, I remember at least one said he used to break the stuff down for powder and lead to load his own calibers. The only guy I can recall who, notoriously, had a .50-70 Remington Rolling Block was George A. Custer. It always seemed to me that the writings of the hide hunters themselves indicated that the rifles used were about evenly divided between Sharps and Remington, with a sprinkling of other makes, like the Ballard, in the distinct minority.

And, of course, Buffalo Bill's legendary buffalo rifle was "Lucretia Borgia," a .50-70 Trapdoor Springfield. He's the only buffalo hunter I can recall who had one, and he was a showman for most of his career.

Anybody else read this essay? I think the first revisionist history article I read was on the Sesquicentennial of the fall of the Alamo, where somebody argued that Davy Crockett had snuck out the back door, survived the battle and later settled in Mexico. My tolerance for this kind of Gonzo "historical" writing has not improved since then, quite the opposite.

[Tom Herman]

Hi Ramrod,

Interesting story... I haven't gotten that issue of The Blue Press yet... I don't think I would put too much weight on what the guy said. I have Frank Seller's definitive book on Sharps Firearms, and Chapter 20 is devoted to the use of the Sharps Rifle on the Plains for hunting. He makes it clear from shipping records what the trends were in caliber, as well as rifle weight.
So, it's blatantly obvious that the market hunters were indeed using a fair number of Sharps rifles.
Early on, .50-70 was a popular caliber, but less so as time went on. They clearly trended to .44 and .45 caliber as ranges increased.
Also included is a fairly long list of suppliers of Sharps rifles, from Denver all the way to San Francisco....
The Trapdoor, at least in .50 caliber trim, was probably good early on, but when ranges started going longer, they would have been less useful due to the bullet not being stabilized after 250 yards due to the rifling twist.
Sharps certainly didn't have a monopoly on the Buffalo market, but to claim that they were just a small part of it is ludicrous.
There are reports of people dropping Buffalo routinely with the .44 Henry Flat (eek!), so I'm sure the Buffalo hunt had all sorts of rifles and calibers used.
Then there is the story of Billy Dixon, and how he toppled an Indian off his horse (lucky shot!) at nearly a mile with a borrowed Sharps rifle (Battle of Adobe Walls).
I share your lack of tolerance for faulty "historical" writing....

-Tom

[M-Tecs]

The 50/70 Trapdoor Springfield was probably the most used and available rifles of the time since the Army replaced it with the 47/50. The 50/70 TD's rifles and ammo comparatively were dirt cheap as surplus. What next was the RRB. For the professional buffalo hunter what was the most used is open to argument. What is wrong with the article is the same BS we have all been feed that the buffalo had been hunted to near extinction. This is was and always has been 100% B.S!!

The numbers don't add up. The railroad keep very accurate records of the amount of hide shipped back and the amount of ammo shipped out. This totals only about 6 million over the 10 to 15 years of buffalo hunting. Diseases from cattle and horses killed off the other 25 to 50 million buffalo.

Brucelousis is a cattle disease that causes premature abortions in cattle. The Bison had no resistence to it, they could not breed as fast as they were dying. This disease is what eventully killed them off. Being shot at just accelerated the process.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/531

http://www.bisonbasics.com/history/past_future.html

[oldred]

The fact that the herds didn't rebound after the hide hunting stopped tends to support the disease theory.

[M-Tecs]

Good information on the subject. Can't find it now but I read a very document articlewith the railroads records of all hide and ammo shipped during the time period.


http://www.petersenshunting.com/featured/was-the-buffalo-nearly-hunted-to-near-extinction/

[M-Tecs]

Good information on the subject. Can't find it now but I read a very well document article with the railroads records of all hide and ammo shipped during the time period.

http://www.petersenshunting.com/featured/was-the-buffalo-nearly-hunted-to-near-extinction/

[Doc Highwall]

If I recall correctly the 44-77 was the most used cartridge by the buffalo hunters.

[M-Tecs]

I have done a fair amount of reading on this subject and the 50-70 Govt TD, 45/70 TD and the 44-77 Remington RRB seem to be the most widely used. Army gave out tons of 50-70 & 45-70s to rid the plains of Buffalo.

The Sharps percussion may have been a big player but not enough 1874 Sharps produced to be a major player. That's not saying that the 1874 may have been the preferred rifle for those that could afford it. http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+buffalo+hunters+and+their+rifles%3a+image+poli shing+and+myth...-a0147466234

http://www.svartkrutt.net/articles/vis.php?id=19

The most common metallic cartridge Sharps is the Model 1874. The model designation is actually a misnomer, because the first rifles were produces as early as 1871. It was probably because of marketing purposed the model was called Model 1874. The model was made in several different configurations: Sporter rifles, carbines, Mid-range rifles, Long-range rifles, Creedmoor rifles, Schuetzen rifles and full stock military rifles. The Model 1874 Sporting Rifle was made in greatest numbers, even though the number of rifles made probably doesn't exceed 6500. The amount tells something about the decline in the number of Sharps rifles made after the war. As a comparison, over 100 000 percussion Sharps were made, many of which were converted to metallic cartridge after the war.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I also tend to disagree with the article, although I don't think it is quite as false as some believe. What is a buffalo-runner? Many of the contract buffalo hunters pursued them on horseback, to shoot at about as close range. The 76 Winchester in .45-75 is the rifle we hear of for that, but a trapdoor Springfield carbine in either of its chamberings wouldn't have been a bad alternative. The heavy-bullet .45-70 in particular would offer a bit more chance of fumbling cartridges in the chase, but a bit more killing power.

The .44 Henry rimfire? That sounds like a long and gory business, but probably quite safe from a horse that knows the business.

The late Sharps rifles were certainly expensive - much more so than the Winchester Single Shot which arrived after the big buffalo herds were gone. But being one of the more successful contract hunters was a lucrative business. Like many another form of hunting, I believe buffalo, which notoriously stood still as their friends and relations went down quietly, would stampede if one was lightly enough hit to run or thrash about. That was worth paying for. Still, I've always assumed most of the Sharps rifles on the plains were paper cartridge or conversions, often military surplus, and those would be cheap. So was reloading using everlasting cases.

I don't think there is much doubt that especially late on, buffalo were shot simply to starve out the Indians, as they used to be known. There were certainly some accounts of Indians aghast at the sight of buffalo carcasses that hadn't been skinned, nor any meat taken. I don't know whether that was common enough to significantly distort those railroad figures, and I am sure brucellosis was significant. But I don't know if exact information can ever be available.

[bob208]

just about anything you read now is it could have been this way. here is one way to think maybe the Remington was used more and that is why we don't see so many today. they just plain got used up. also could the writers of the time have been gun ignorant like they are today? every big bore rifle used for buff. was a sharps. every semi-auto rifle today is an assault rifle . or could they have seen or talked to one hunter and he used a sharps so they just thought every did. unless you were there don't make all in collusive statements like no way or this was the way it was.

[M-Tecs]

In reading a fair number of journals and firsthand accounts of the buffalo hunters most were very specific about the firearms used. The term needle gun is used a fair amount. Some believe it’s the Trapdoor for the long firing pin other claim it was a highly accurate rifle that shot like threading the needle through a button.

In the old journals lots of different firearms were used. I think a lot of the lore of the Sharps, Hawken and face to face gunfights is a media creation far more than reality.

[curator]

The history business has been severely modified over the past century and actively perverted over the past fifty years. It is impossible to separate myth, exaggeration, and purposeful misrepresentation from the facts at this stage. Deconstructionism, Post structuralism, Modernism, Minimalism, and Academic Collectivism are the five "malpractices" of teaching American history. All five methodologies of "interpreting" history are designed to use facts, like the spread of Brucellosis (germ warfare), and the market hunting (much of which was done by Native Americans) in such a way as to convict the American Capitalist System of genocide waged against Native Americans (and Nature). A good read is "The Jefferson Lies" by David Barton. Maybe not the best on getting all the actual facts but absolutely correct on how history has been twisted to suit a political agenda by Academia.

The inexpensive Remington rolling block was used on the Buffalo grounds but was known to be not as accurate as the Sharps. Part of this was due to Remington's Over-seas contracts, particularly South America and the Middle East. Remington rifled most of their military guns with little regard to bore/groove diameter for accuracy. The most popular cartridge for US big game was the Remington .44-77 (very similar to .43 Spanish and 11mm Mauser also produced by Remington). It was popular enough that Sharps (a bit late to the game) adopted it instead of one of their proprietary cartridges for their principal big game rifle. Remington rolling block .44-77 bores could be anywhere from .435" to .449 groove diameter, with subsequent effects on any kind of long range accuracy. Black powder may bump a bullet up some upon firing, but fine accuracy depends on the bullet being the right diameter to start with. It may be that Remington made various batches of barrels for a foreign contract like .43 Egyptian, or 11mm Turkish , and just took some left-over barrels to make up guns for the much less lucrative US market. Sharps cost a lot more but their barrels held close tolerances (mostly) and they were known to be more accurate.

The "needle-guns" they were referring to were the trapdoor Springfields, called so because of their long firing pins. Native Americans did indeed ride among the Buffalo herds shooting from horseback (even with guns like .44 Henry rim fire) but it is doubtful that many white hunters did this very much and lived to tell of it. Native American hunters were lost all the time doing this, but it was their tradition (Dancing with Wolves, not withstanding) Subjects like Native American's impact on the ecosystem in which they lived are mostly taboo replaced with Hollywood romanticism.

[M-Tecs]

Intersting read by Frank Mayer's but his writings are considered suspect by historians.

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm

[fast ronnie]

In reading a fair number of journals and firsthand accounts of the buffalo hunters most were very specific about the firearms used. The term needle gun is used a fair amount. Some believe it’s the Trapdoor for the long firing pin other claim it was a highly accurate rifle that shot like threading the needle through a button.

In the old journals lots of different firearms were used. I think a lot of the lore of the Sharps, Hawken and face to face gunfights is a media creation far more than reality.


The needle gun is a whole 'nother animal. Mauser worked with needle guns in his early years, but he realized there was a better way to do things and started working with cased cartridges which led through the years to some of the masterpieces we still play with today with primers at the rear of the case. Needle guns used a paper case to hold the cartridge together and the primer was at the base of the bullet in front of the powder so that the powder burned from the projectile rearward. There is some information in wikipedia about needle guns. I don't know how to copy the link, but here is a small excert from it.

Needle gun From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to be confused with Needlegun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needlegun).
For other uses, see Needle gun (disambiguation) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun_%28disambiguation%29).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Dreyse_needle_gun.jpg/330px-Dreyse_needle_gun.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dreyse_needle_gun.jpg)



Dreyse needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyse_needle_gun), model 1865.


A needle gun is a firearm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm) that has a needle-like firing pin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_pin), which can pass through the paper cartridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cartridge) case to strike a percussion cap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percussion_cap) at the bullet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet) base. A needle gun with a barrel that has a helical groove or pattern of grooves ("rifling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling)") cut into the barrel walls is also called needle rifle.
Contents



1 Pauly needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Pauly_needle_gun)
2 Dreyse needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Dreyse_needle_gun)
3 Doersch and von Baumgarten needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Doersch_and_von_Baumgarten_needle_gun)
4 Carl needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Carl_needle_gun)
5 Chassepot needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Chassepot_needle_gun)
6 Carcano needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Carcano_needle_gun)
7 References (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#References)
8 External links (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#External_links)

[M-Tecs]

The needle gun is a whole 'nother animal.

Context is everything. In this context we are talking about a slang used by the buffalo hunters on the plains of America via their original writings.

http://truewest.ning.com/profiles/blogs/needle-guns

http://www.truewestmagazine.com/jcontent/living-the-dream/living-the-dream/firearms/2592-a-new-old-needle-gun

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4538353

https://books.google.com/books?id=BVMmjWgZB2AC&pg=PP4&lpg=PP4&dq=needle+gun+old+west&source=bl&ots=XguTkUpJyr&sig=AGQEjRHssTRgTOKUJjlekMw7_zI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c_EwVbi9FKu0sATn2oGoAQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCg#v=onepage&q=needle%20gun%20old%20west&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=ouhYP06JObQC&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=needle+gun+old+west&source=bl&ots=N_5R1JLuzc&sig=B22C45m7zH92-9gPOeJ1GHzp8OA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c_EwVbi9FKu0sATn2oGoAQ&ved=0CFMQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q=needle%20gun%20old%20west&f=false

[Piedmont]

This thread was a pleasure to read. I'm impressed with the knowledge of our posters.

[bob208]

I just saw where the Remington rolling blocks went. saw a old zorro tv show and all the flintlock rifles were rb's with a cock and frizzen added to the side of a rolling block.

[country gent]

I have always wondered if in the general public eye if SHarps became a generic term to describe the Buffalo huners rifles like Hawken did years earlier. In the masses eyes rifles would have been the same.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

In the old journals lots of different firearms were used. I think a lot of the lore of the Sharps, Hawken and face to face gunfights is a media creation far more than reality.

As regards gunfights, you bet your life they were. The minimum human reaction time, from visual stimulus to physical action, is over a tenth of a second. Tests with sensors in the starting blocks of Olympic sprinters (sober, better forewarned and without five aces in their hands or a foot on a cowpat) have been timed at 160 milliseconds.

The difference between a great combat pistol shot and one who is just passable is shorter than that. I don't believe anybody outdrew anybody when the visual stimulus was the other fellow going for his hardware. If it ever was, you couldn't go on doing it for long. The reputation of the great gunfighters was built on notches for amateurs, or going for their guns before the enemy thought they would.

[M-Tecs]

As regards gunfights, you bet your life they were.

Please site an example of a credible historic account of a face to face quick draw Hollywood type gunfight.

The Hollywood type gunfights never happen much if ever.

Most happened like these.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2514/did-western-gunfighters-really-face-off-one-on-one

http://www.truewestmagazine.com/jcontent/history/history/classic-gunfights/6580-10-face-to-face-stand-up-gunfights

http://listverse.com/2014/11/10/10-gunfights-defined-old-west/

[texaswoodworker]

In reading a fair number of journals and firsthand accounts of the buffalo hunters most were very specific about the firearms used. The term needle gun is used a fair amount. Some believe it’s the Trapdoor for the long firing pin other claim it was a highly accurate rifle that shot like threading the needle through a button.

In the old journals lots of different firearms were used. I think a lot of the lore of the Sharps, Hawken and face to face gunfights is a media creation far more than reality.

I always though a needle gun was a type of rifle that used a long firing pin to pierce the paper cartridge and hit the primer at the base of a bullet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun

They seem like odd guns for American Buffalo hunters to use though. Your explanation may be correct.

[Dan Cash]

The needle gun is a whole 'nother animal. Mauser worked with needle guns in his early years, but he realized there was a better way to do things and started working with cased cartridges which led through the years to some of the masterpieces we still play with today with primers at the rear of the case. Needle guns used a paper case to hold the cartridge together and the primer was at the base of the bullet in front of the powder so that the powder burned from the projectile rearward. There is some information in wikipedia about needle guns. I don't know how to copy the link, but here is a small excert from it.

Needle gun

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to be confused with Needlegun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needlegun).
For other uses, see Needle gun (disambiguation) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun_%28disambiguation%29).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Dreyse_needle_gun.jpg/330px-Dreyse_needle_gun.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dreyse_needle_gun.jpg)



Dreyse needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyse_needle_gun), model 1865.


A needle gun is a firearm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm) that has a needle-like firing pin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_pin), which can pass through the paper cartridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cartridge) case to strike a percussion cap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percussion_cap) at the bullet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet) base. A needle gun with a barrel that has a helical groove or pattern of grooves ("rifling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling)") cut into the barrel walls is also called needle rifle.
Contents





1 Pauly needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Pauly_needle_gun)
2 Dreyse needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Dreyse_needle_gun)
3 Doersch and von Baumgarten needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Doersch_and_von_Baumgarten_needle_gun)
4 Carl needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Carl_needle_gun)
5 Chassepot needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Chassepot_needle_gun)
6 Carcano needle gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#Carcano_needle_gun)
7 References (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#References)
8 External links (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun#External_links)





The Allen conversion which evolved into the Trap door Springfield was commonly referred to as a needle gun, precisely because of its long, needle like firing pin. Not to be confused with the Eruopean Dryse type needle systems.

[texaswoodworker]

As regards gunfights, you bet your life they were. The minimum human reaction time, from visual stimulus to physical action, is over a tenth of a second. Tests with sensors in the starting blocks of Olympic sprinters (sober, better forewarned and without five aces in their hands or a foot on a cowpat) have been timed at 160 milliseconds.

The difference between a great combat pistol shot and one who is just passable is shorter than that. I don't believe anybody outdrew anybody when the visual stimulus was the other fellow going for his hardware. If it ever was, you couldn't go on doing it for long. The reputation of the great gunfighters was built on notches for amateurs, or going for their guns before the enemy thought they would.

If your read how people like Wyatt Earp, Dallas Stoudenmire, Doc Holiday, and Wild Bill Hickok won their gunfights, then you'll know just how much BS Hollywood spreads around. I believe the only stereotypical high noon showdown to ever happen involved Wild Bill Hickok.

[montana_charlie]

Please site an example of a credible historic account of a face to face quick draw Hollywood type gunfight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Bill_Hickok_%E2%80%93_Davis_Tutt_shootout

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't want to cite any, and hope I wasn't misunderstood when I agreed the traditional movie gunfight, beating a man to the draw on seeing him begin to do so, rarely if ever happened. I'm quite sure some of the old western gunfighters were highly competent, both at shooting and in an instinct for the moment when deadly violence could only be beaten by forestalling it. But the latter was the one that kept people alive through numerous armed confrontations. Apart from the willingness to Pearl Harbor him before he even thought of violence, of course.

[Texantothecore]

More or less out of the "blue," I got a copy of the Blue Press for May in the mail earlier this week. In it, Brian Dervin Dillon, who I am led to believe is a Ph.D in History, described a .50-70 Remington Rolling Block that an ancestor had bought from a saloon-keeper in Sausalito in 1920. The illustration is of a civilian model Rolling Block, well-used, with the grip repaired with rawhide. "Who knows what stories this old rifle could tell, etc., etc."

He then reviews the history of the Remington and the Sharps companies, bringing forth the argument that most of the real buffalo hunters out West used one of the "thousands" of Rolling Blocks that Remington produced, or, alternately, bought milsurp Trapdoor Springfields that the government was selling as it switched from .50-70 to .45-70.

He argues that the majority of the rifles on the buffalo ranges were Remington Rolling Blocks and Trapdoor Springfields, with only a relatively small proportion of Sharps rifles, and fewer still in the Sharps calibers that made the brand famous. He says the majority of Sharps were used by rich, effete target shooters back East, because both the rifles and the factory ammunition were too "rare and expensive" for most of the hunters on the plains. The few that used them out West were wealthy sportsmen on hunting trips. The Sharps became the legendary "Buffalo Gun" by means of being used in Wild West Shows, where the audience picked up on the brand name and made it legendary in an alleged triumph of public relations over actual fact.

I must confess that this article controverts about everything I ever read, heard or saw on the subject. There might have been more surplus Army rifles out there than Sharps rifles, but if I have my reading straight, they were in the hands of settlers or subsistence hunters rather than professional buff-runners. Maybe they would shoot a buffalo once in a while in the course of events, but they were not market hunters. Most of the "thousands" of Remington Rolling Blocks were made in metric calibers for foreign governments, and I would imagine their ammunition was as "rare and expensive" out on the plains as any of the Sharps calibers. I remember one contemporary reference to a hunter shooting something with his "Egyptian Remington," but that was it, although, admittedly, the description of guns the correspondents used is typically sparse or lacking in their hunting stories. Those military Rolling Blocks only showed up in huge numbers after WWII, when most of the nations of the world dumped theirs in the US to raise badly needed hard cash. I recall Sporting Model Remingtons in catalogs, and Target Models, but only Sharps offered a Business Model.

It always seemed to me, when I went to Gun Shows, that there were always more Sharps rifles on tables than civilian models of Remington Rolling Blocks, and very few I ever saw of either civilian or military were in .50-70. Marcot's book on Remington Rolling Blocks confirms this; the Company was so involved in military contracts that they could make relatively few civilian rifles and still thrive. The "rare and expensive factory ammunition" of whatever caliber, whether .50-90, .44-77 or whatever, was reloaded by most hunters to amortize the cost. Although it is true that some people were glad to get free .50-70 ammo from nearby forts, I remember at least one said he used to break the stuff down for powder and lead to load his own calibers. The only guy I can recall who, notoriously, had a .50-70 Remington Rolling Block was George A. Custer. It always seemed to me that the writings of the hide hunters themselves indicated that the rifles used were about evenly divided between Sharps and Remington, with a sprinkling of other makes, like the Ballard, in the distinct minority.

And, of course, Buffalo Bill's legendary buffalo rifle was "Lucretia Borgia," a .50-70 Trapdoor Springfield. He's the only buffalo hunter I can recall who had one, and he was a showman for most of his career.

Anybody else read this essay? I think the first revisionist history article I read was on the Sesquicentennial of the fall of the Alamo, where somebody argued that Davy Crockett had snuck out the back door, survived the battle and later settled in Mexico. My tolerance for this kind of Gonzo "historical" writing has not improved since then, quite the opposite.

Remington Rolling Blocks were the largest selling rifle in history until the ak came along.
70 million rbs produced.

Sharps had to make do with 6500.
Apparently the Sharps could be purchased for 276.00 in 1876.

That number was very serious money in those days.

So yes, the rolling blocks were the rifle of choice for most buffalo hunters.

[Texantothecore]

I will add that the profit margins on buffalo hunting were quite low and most hunting teams broke even or lost money. It was not a way to get rich. Logistics were a real problem and competition kept prices low.

[sharpsguy]

I don't know where you get the figure of 276 dollars for a Sharps rifle in 1876. I have a copy of the Sharps factory catalog for that year, and according to that catalog, the price of a Sharps sporting rifle with a 28 inch barrel was 36 dollars. If you wanted a 30 inch barrel, it cost you 38 dollars. The Sharps hunter's rifles with a single trigger rather than the double set were 31 and 33 dollars, depending on the barrel length.

[Bent Ramrod]

I could see how a Sharps rifle purchased in Kansas or Texas in the midst of the buffalo harvest would go for much more than it would if it was picked up in Hartford or Bridgeport and carried out there. Look at what happened to the S&W 29 after Dirty Harry or the Shiloh Sharps after Quigley Down Under.

But those millions of Remington Rolling Blocks overwhelmingly went overseas, not to be seen in this country until the 1950's. According to Marcot's book, the highest serial number for #1 and #1-1/2 Sporting and Target rifles was 12,000 or so, and given Remington's unwillingness to publicize their records, it is pretty much a guess how many were shipped or used out West. Excluding those Creedmoor, Scheutzen and other Target rifles and those chambered in rim fire and other small calibers, I would think the frequency of Sharps and Remington rifles among the professional buffalo hunters would be closer to even. In 1873, an advertisement by Remington offered the Sporting Rifle at between $32 and $40, depending in sights and barrel length, so the FOB price difference between Remington and Sharps was not that extreme.

Again, it appears that Dillon is deliberately blurring the distinction between a professional buffalo hunter and somebody who found himself on the range for some other reason (and happened to shoot a buffalo) in order to make a "controversial" point about what kind of rifle they would be using. Carrying this idea to its logical conclusion, one could say that since the shotgun was the most frequently used firearm on the Western ranges, and rifles had a comparatively small usage and importance.

[M-Tecs]

The other thing to keep in mind is the relatively small number of professional buffalo hunters.

By most accounts the total kill for all years of buffalo hunting is about 6 million. If you have a thousand rifles that killed a thousand buffalo each you have killed a million buffalo. It didn't take that many people or rifles to kill 6 million buffalo over a 10 to 15 year period.

I believe most would be surprised by how few professional buffalo hunters their actually were. Most that made a living "hunting" buffalo were skinners and general labor.

[Texantothecore]

I don't know where you get the figure of 276 dollars for a Sharps rifle in 1876. I have a copy of the Sharps factory catalog for that year, and according to that catalog, the price of a Sharps sporting rifle with a 28 inch barrel was 36 dollars. If you wanted a 30 inch barrel, it cost you 38 dollars. The Sharps hunter's rifles with a single trigger rather than the double set were 31 and 33 dollars, depending on the barrel length.

I got it from an interview published decades ago. The guy being interviewed was supposedly a former buffalo hunter. Thank you for the correction.

I love this forum. Lots of learning.

[kootne]

For the last 30 years I've bought nearly every book that was a memoir, journal etc. regarding the 1840-1890 era that happened anywhere near Montana, Idaho, Wy. that I happened to run across. I will reference a statement in one of those books, "Hunting in the Great West" by G.O. Shields. He notes that of a 100 or so frontiersmen he met (eastern Montana area, 1880) all but 3 or 4 used a Sharps rifle. He says he questioned many about their choice and they were happy with them and felt them well suited to the life they lived. I would venture a guess that ratio is just about what is referenced in the big stack of books I've accumulated when buffalo hunting is referenced. Not much said about rolling blocks. These are nearly all 1rst person accounts.
For the record, I'm not a Sharps "groupie", I do own one, a Business rifle shipped in early '77 and two Remington sporters in 40/70 BN. Hopefully that shows my objectivity.
Over the years I've seen several dug up, plowed up, or dump found Sharps from around Montana and Wyoming along with a number of other dug up period rifles but not one Remington.
Another thing, is the dates and chamberings. Commercial buffalo hunting was ~1871- 1884 I believe. Factory Sharps cartridge rifles were ~1869-1881. #1 Remingtons were ~1869-at least 1888 (those made after 1884 missed the game). All Sharps chamberings except the 2 40/50's were buffalo sufficient. Remington made a large number of their rifle in rimfire or light 38 calibers. So for me, somebody is trying to re-write history with this Remington story.

[M-Tecs]

Gabriel Dumont was a leader of the Métis people and a leader of their buffalo hunts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Dumont_(M%C3%A9tis_leader)#
I don't know what he used when he hunted buffalo but the pictures show him holding a RRB.

J. H. May was also a buffalo hunter and he states "My favorite guns were the Maynard 40-70, 320 grain and the Sharps .40-90 360 grain. He later started using a Sharps 45-100 for buffalo.

And of course Buffalo Bill Cody's favorite was Springfield .50 caliber trapdoor needle gun, he christened it “Lucretia Borgia.” http://centerofthewest.org/2014/08/10/lucretia-hunts-buffalo/

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't believe many people realize just how few people were living the outdoor life on the great plains in the mass buffalo hunting era. The numbers of rolling block and Sharps rifles which were somewhere else (possibly Egypt etc.) needn't bear any relation to how many were there.

While the Sharps rifles (other than war surplus conversions) were expensive, the price of ammunition relative to rifles in those days was high. I would suspect that among professional riflemen reloading was common, and the availability of Everlasting cases for the Sharps rifles was probably a factor.

[Got-R-Did]

deleted-bad link.

Got-R-Did.

[M-Tecs]

http://www.levergun.com/articles/bdixon.htm

Got-R-Did.

Levergun.com (http://www.levergun.com/)
http://www.levergun.com/wp-content/themes/tonic/library/images/404.png404 ErrorSorry. We can't seem to find the page you're looking for.

[Got-R-Did]

http://www.levergun.com/articles/replicating-billy-dixons-legendary-long-shot-part-i/

Got-R-Did.

[Sharpsman]

Liver-Eatin Johnson said Buffalo Bill was the worst shot in the West!!

[M-Tecs]

For the Liver-Eatin Johnson fans http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1179/174962606X136874

[alamogunr]

Black Powder Cartridge News had a series a few years ago on the buffalo trade. Complete w/pictures(hides/bones). I'll leave it up to someone else to dig it out, read and report. I don't want to hold the author up for criticism.

[firebrick43]

I want to make a comment. Spending 5 years in the SoCal desert I never saw a sharps on the old ranches, but many rolling blocks. Read history and a lot of people migrating west didn't settle but continued to mill around and eventually "retired" to California.


But more important to the conversation, is that common tools are treated as such and are used up. I collect hand wood working tools. It very uncommon to find a pristine hand plane of average size(jack plane) in an all wood or transitional model or even early all metal plane. Why. Everyday workman bought them and used the every day. They were used up. Then farmers and amatures bought them up at auctions and took the last life out of them (or stored them till they became rusty hulks) but expensive planes were typically either specialty planes that were rarely used or fancier tools that were well taken care of and out of financial reach of hacks and tool abusers.


Guns are the same way. You never see fancy berretta shotguns in some corner of a barn to shot rats or pigeons, but I have seen many of h&r, savage 24's, and winchester 37's, the later have been climbing in prices recently as they are becoming uncommon. But I have seen many rusty hulks in barns around here. Same goes for 22's. Pump 22's are climbing in price as nice example in 22lr are not particularly common. Many of father have them to their sons to use (and therefore abuse).


You see sharps a gun shows because they were nice expensive guns well taken care of. People don't take rusted up hulks of rolling blocks. They hang then over the mantle as decoration.