is the muzzle loader market(sidelocks) hot again.

[johnson1942]

just sold a third muzzle loader to day, thats 3 in 6 weeks. also going to built one for a shooter from his parts very soon. its like the muzzleloader market for sidelocks just took off. anybody else experienceing this also.

[ejcrist]

I don't know but I certainly hope you're right. That would be a very good thing. I know when inlines were getting popular many years ago I figured interest in sidelocks would go down to almost nothing but that didn't seem to materialize thankfully.

[mooman76]

Probably a momentary spurt. They are on the decline and the fact that several sellers(that sell inexpensive models) like CVA that don't sell them any more doesn't help. I probably never would have gotten into it if I couldn't have done it for a moderate price. I wish I was wrong and you are right, but I doubt it.

[johnson1942]

the guns i sold were made and hardly used back a few years ago and i could never sell a gun that i would make for todays parts prices for which these gun sold for. the buyers are getting a buy and now the guns will be used. i still have 5 left plus my son has one and i gave one to another son.

[koger]

Roger I am seeing same here, folks got out of traditional ml's, let the barrels rust up, went for the newer syn stocks, inlines they still rust if u don't take care of them. TC no longer makes side locks, so ones in pristine condition, or w with GM drop in barrels are going up in value since they are getting out of ml barrels.

[OverMax]

I suspect some of those Modern Shooting enthusiastshave had to endure too many price increases and shortages over the last 15 years or so. Maybe some have come to realize. Its time to get back to those basic's while they >still can.

[johnson1942]

i think the sidelocks are going to find a groove but shooters are going to pay for them. in the 60/s i got into 5 string banjos and built one and wore it out. they were really a hot item back them but they also found their groove and are still around. to your will pay an arm or a leg for a good one as your going to for a good side lock. still pick or frail away by my self in the house when the family is at work or school.

[starmac]

Sidelocks have been in a groove for lots of years, when states started running special seasons and manufacturers started the race for magnum front stuffers, it stole the parade from sidelocks, but they still had their followers, and hopefully picking up a few more. Myself, I could just never get excited about the inlines, but can see why some do.

[Good Cheer]

In lines will go away. Side locks will stay.

[silverado]

I want a side lock so I can play Jeremiah johnson when I'm done playing John Wayne with my single action. Just wish they were cheaper.
Also in my defense I never said I was historically correct in any of this.

[waksupi]

If collectors had their poop in a pile, they would be grabbing up some of the better quality custom guns being made now. This is certainly the Second Golden Age. Firearms far surpassing the old ones are being produced by today's fine craftsmen. Once the collectors figure it out, the prices are going to skyrocket, like every other class of firearm has.

[rhbrink]

If collectors had their poop in a pile, they would be grabbing up some of the better quality custom guns being made now. This is certainly the Second Golden Age. Firearms far surpassing the old ones are being produced by today's fine craftsmen. Once the collectors figure it out, the prices are going to skyrocket, like every other class of firearm has.
Already is in my area! Long live the Side Lock!!!! Flinters especially!!!!!!!!!!

RB

[Squeeze]

I started with sidelocks. Rarely use em anymore. I dont plan on trading in my truck for a horse and buggy anytime soon either.:razz:

[johnson1942]

thompsons are getting thin and so are the other ones. if a person wants a good sidelock pedersoli or have one made. my emails have greatly increased this winter and the selling of some guns show me that the market is becomeing a market again. their is a feeling of deep self satisfaction in useing a side lock and shooting better that the average guy with a modern rifle. i like inlines and will build one for a shooter also and it will be one of pride and quality but the deep soul satisfaction is in the sidelocks. my ancesters were custom furniture makers for hundreds of years in france and i think i have their flair for wood when it get a piece of it in my hands.

[idahoron]

I don't know for certain but around here I don't think the side locks are going to make a resurgence soon. I had a Knight in-line in a 54 and got rid of it when I got into the Side lock and fast twist barrel and adjustable sights game. I was wanting a side lock that I could hunt trophy deer and antelope with. After putting them together I thought for years that would be the only way I would hunt. A broken stock later, and a gun smith that that I hired to make a "better" than TC stock, I am worried about the side locks because there is limited support for them. The gun smith has had mine for 3 years.
I bought two Knight MK85's. The reason I did it was to reduce the need to take my "baby's" on hunts that might be dangerous for them. I am not going to take my side locks on my pontoon boat. I have a real good hunt I like that I am not going to risk my good rifles on. I am not going to take it on horse back. My side locks are a better rifle, and easier to clean. The in-lines will never take their place but the in-lines and side locks both have a place in my arsenal.

[pietro]

.

While I can't speak for others, I know that I've come full circle - starting with sidehammer guns in the late 60's and progressing through various inlines, scoped inlines, etc, etc - until I decided to stop & smell the roses, about 15 years ago, reverting to sidehammers again (even my 1st rocklock ! )

Apparently, though, many gunshops haven't seen the resurgence, and still have sidelock long guns tagged F/S at ridiculously low prices ($50-$300).

In the past 5 years, up to this past March, I've been able to find (and buy) a T/C Renegade 56SB (smoothbore) @ $50, a .45 T/C Seneca @ $100, a .36 Model 1851 clone @ $125, and a scarce .36 T/C Seneca @ $250 - all languishing at the end/back of gunracks, one even hidden by a gun placed in front of it, in the same slot.

My $0.02: Make hay while the sun shines, fella's. :D


.

[triggerhappy243]

Idahoron, have you contacted sheeit and wasteon and asked if they still warranty the t/c stocks? T/c had full warranty on the whole rifle, stock and all.

And whats the deal with the gunsmith having it for 3 years? Is he growing another tree?

[idahoron]

They don't warranty them any more. They said tough luck. I think he is waiting to plant it.

[Pyro&Black]

just sold a third muzzle loader to day, thats 3 in 6 weeks. also going to built one for a shooter from his parts very soon. its like the muzzleloader market for sidelocks just took off. anybody else experienceing this also.

Parts are getting harder and harder to come by. Some sidelock owners are purchasing entire backup MLs instead of a part here & there.

The sidelock business (new) continues to nosedive. Actually the entire ML retail business continues to nosedive overall.

[bob208]

well in my state cap locks are a hard sell. but you can sell flint locks all day long.

[John Allen]

If collectors had their poop in a pile, they would be grabbing up some of the better quality custom guns being made now. This is certainly the Second Golden Age. Firearms far surpassing the old ones are being produced by today's fine craftsmen. Once the collectors figure it out, the prices are going to skyrocket, like every other class of firearm has.

Waksupi, I agree totally on this. Some of the stuff I see be made by individual craftsmen is astounding. The last Dixons Muzzleloading Fair I saw a 45 cal full stock with such fine engravings and patterns that I could not believe it was all done by hand. It must have taken a year of solid work to finish. He wanted $4000.00 which I frankly thought was a great price.

[crossxsticks]

hate to say but they will never be topps to the younger generation and thats why mfg folks wont build them , for same reasons that the winchester single shot 22 and the H&A Double barrel with hammers that i grew up with are gone fore ever to. and going to be same when were gone to :grin:

[johnson1942]

no company is going to build them but craftsmen are, and someone will always want one.

[Pyro&Black]

well in my state cap locks are a hard sell. but you can sell flint locks all day long.

Pennsylvania remains the most traditional muzzleloader state in the USA. Here in Lower & Eastern-side Michigan, it's rare that I see a sidelock in the woods and maybe see a flintlock shooter once every five years.

[ejcrist]

Pennsylvania remains the most traditional muzzleloader state in the USA. Here in Lower & Eastern-side Michigan, it's rare that I see a sidelock in the woods and maybe see a flintlock shooter once every five years.

You're very right about that. PA is where I first got interested in flintlocks while living there and I'm glad I did - lots of great memories of shooting and hunting with the best of friends. I've been in love with flintlocks ever since and miss going to the Dixon's fair every year. John - you're right about the quality of rifles there. In my opinion sidelocks are the most interesting niche of the shooting sports and I'd love to see more interest in them.

[Baja_Traveler]

While I'm working with Roger to build a first rate target muzzleloader, here in Kalifornia they will soon be a non-starter for hunting - percussion or flint. The lead ban is coming, so I'm guessing that in-lines shooting Sabots will rule the muzzleloader season.
Now on the range - a nice muzzleloader will always draw a crowd to watch it shoot...

[pietro]

While I'm working with Roger to build a first rate target muzzleloader, here in Kalifornia they will soon be a non-starter for hunting - percussion or flint. The lead ban is coming, so I'm guessing that in-lines shooting Sabots will rule the muzzleloader season.
Now on the range - a nice muzzleloader will always draw a crowd to watch it shoot...


I wouldn't give up on a rocklock, where a lead ban is in effect.

A projectile = a projectile - use a saboted solid copper boolit (horrors ;) ), ILO a PRB, loaded over Holy Black.

FWIW, maybe a solid copper boolit can also be patched ILO being saboted.

You don't know, until it's tried (AKA: where there's a will, there's a way).


.

[johnson1942]

pietro, your not far off. i was thinking of buying some iron or brass ball bearing close to 1/2 .50 in diam and haveing a barrel made that was 5 thousands over the iron or brass ball size and patching them to shoot in that gun. if you look on the internet bulk iron or brass ball are not priced out of the shooting them market. a good tough patching material like linen should make them work really good. the only draw back is what you shoot them at as if it is a hard surface they would really bounce and be dangerous . they should be faster than lead balls with the same load and they would be no expansion but a 1/2 inch wound channel is big enough. ive been thinking of doing that for years and they would be ok to hunt with in calif. because they arent lead. any body else thought of that?

[mooman76]

A fellow on another site has been testing brass balls and had good luck and accuracy. He also reclaims them to shoot again.

[triggerhappy243]

Once again, i am glad i do not live in communist calif.they can take all their b.s. Epa rules/laws and slide off into the pacific.

[dondiego]

California used to be home to many entrepreneurs. If this law unrealistically covers muzzle loading projectiles, I am confident that someone will provide brass, copper, zinc, tin, or bismuth round balls

Years ago, in the 1700's there was a group of rebels that had enough of bad laws and refused to recognize them as valid.

[johnson1942]

im sure your right, but at a gun range i would be careful in useing them as they could bounce back off of a gong just a fast as they hit it and do some serious damage or kill some one. out in the open country is another story.

[dondiego]

That would be one of the "Unintended Consequences" of bad legislation and govt overstep.

[flyingmonkey35]

You are talking about the libtards who believe that the second amendment was written so hunters could use guns.

[smokeywolf]

I do love the flinters. Need to procure spare flints for my model 1816 Springfield.

[Rick Hodges]

I'm not too sure where the muzzle loader market is heading. When Michigan made ML's with patched round balls legal in the southern part (shotgun zone) as well as a special season statewide for deer there was a huge surge in sidelock sales (the only ML commonly available)....then they allowed maxi's and saboted bullets....a big surge in in-lines. Now, they legalized straight walled pistol cartridges in rifles in the same zone for the regular firearms season. I predict a surge in 44 mag rifles....I know I bought one. LOL.

The last gun show I was at there were many percussion rifles and a few flints for sale...didn't see anyone buying. Price on a very clean TC Hawken was less than I paid new 35 yrs ago.

[triggerhappy243]

i would like to get my hands on a pair of clean pristine T/C HAWKENS in both 50 and 54 cal. keep yer eyes peeled.

[johnson1942]

check with (first stop) in rapid city s.dak. call them and have them call you when one comes in.

[slumlord44]

I have shot CVA Muzzleloaders since the '70's. Started collecting them a few years back since they were no longer being made. Prices seem to keep going up on these basic side locks. Same with Thompson Center but the prices are higher. Current production Pedresoli and other side locks have also gotten a lot more expensive. Part of the problem is good old inflation.

[Ithaca Gunner]

137308 137309 137310 137311 137312 137313

I never cared for the modern in line muzzle loaders one bit. I tried several factory flinters and found disappointment in all of them. Well, I happened across this early style Pennsylvania rifle one day and just had to have her! Built by Earl Williams of Tennessee, .54 swamped barrel, hand cast brass fittings, nicely carved stock, and it fits so well you would think it was a fine English shotgun. As long as the flint's even remotely in decent shape, it goes boom! No disappointment here, no regrets.

[tddeangelo]

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n566/tddeangelo/Martin%20Rifle/BAE64D32-5880-4CD7-8E44-C1301D081200_zpsghatbfsx.jpg

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n566/tddeangelo/Martin%20Rifle/95863005-136F-4B05-8944-711565469077_zpsu4v7iygs.jpg

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n566/tddeangelo/Martin%20Rifle/03F4D1CC-48B6-4A4F-82D6-8E3A3C272F77_zpslz76vb3i.jpg

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n566/tddeangelo/Martin%20Rifle/3DC40EE2-7979-43BB-82E0-A645A2C72EEA_zpssgzzupub.jpg


That's my custom rifle made by Mr. Allen Martin. Beautiful rifle, and it works pretty well in the field, too! :)

The comments about the current state of custom sidelocks is spot on, imho. I am fortunate enough to live less than a half-hour drive from Dixon's, and I go there often, including for the Gumakers' Fair. There is so much going on in the long rifle/custom sidelock realm, and it's awesome to see.

These rifles put off many folks from their cost, BUT....when I took what Allen told me the parts cost for my rifle, subtracted that from what he was charging, and divided the balance by the amount of time he likely had in the rifle, I couldn't believe how little he was really getting paid for his work.

Makers like Allen, as well as others such as Mark Wheland, Ron Luckenbill, and others are doing such great work, and they're all so easy to talk to about their craft.

I've hunted with caplocks, flintlocks, and inlines. I've killed deer with flinters and inlines (my caplock hunting was pretty limited), and the flintlock is by far my favorite. I'm replacing that bag with one made by Eric Fleischer, and maybe next year I'll replace the hand-me-down horn, or maybe not. :)

That rifle is based on the Jon Schreit rifle, made in Reading in 1761 (I live in that area). My rifle is a 62-caliber, it's no featherweight, and it still carries better than my Lyman Plains Rifle because of the spot-on balance and architecture. It just hangs on target...steady as a rock. You don't get that with the latest plastic stocked/cerakoted/scoped inline. :)

[Tackleberry41]

With a certain crowd side locks are popular. Outside that most have no interest. The LGS near me wont take side locks of any kind is trade, he says it takes forever to sell them, the right person has to come in, and it has to be what their looking for. Slight difference in brand or whatever, no sale. I have a really nice lyman 54 cal I have tried to sell several times. I can sell it, but for a price so low its not worth selling.

[waksupi]

With a certain crowd side locks are popular. Outside that most have no interest. The LGS near me wont take side locks of any kind is trade, he says it takes forever to sell them, the right person has to come in, and it has to be what their looking for. Slight difference in brand or whatever, no sale. I have a really nice lyman 54 cal I have tried to sell several times. I can sell it, but for a price so low its not worth selling.

In my post, I was referring to non-production, custom firearms. Big difference in value.

[johnson1942]

waksupi, your right and i think the market for higher end custom made side locks is opening up but shooters will have to pay for them. i was looking at 3500 dollar modern rifles this week end and the wood work on those guns are not even in the same ball park as the kind of guns you and i turn out.

[tddeangelo]

As a point of reference, the rifle I posted above was priced above that mark. But then again, Allen has a 3yr wait and people are literally lining up to pay for his work.

[waksupi]

At the local shoots we can have upwards of 150 shooters. A large percentage of them, probably at least 40%, are shooting custom guns. Some build their own, others sell lesser guns in their stable to get one good one.

[tddeangelo]

That's next for me....building my own.

[Geezer in NH]

I have to sadly say no