BHN of WD 50-50; elk and deer out of a 45/70

[huntinlever]

Quick gut check. Ton of variables, I know. Just trying to limit down to:

45/70 guide gun, 18.5" barrel. 460-425 Grain (.330 meplat) Accurate mold is shipped and will be here shortly. Can't wait to start actually casting.

Would like a brush gun out to 200 yards that penetrates extremely well - depending on penetration and shock with a wide meplat, over expansion. Bone destruction and an unrecovered bullet, if it can at all be helped. Just a personal choice.

1) I've seen BHN ranges: Would most say WD 50:50 ages out to about BHN 15-16?

2) Given the intents above, would you consider this a good alloy and process?

3) Fine as is, or up to 2% tin? If adding in to 2% tin, keeping everything else the same, what would the aged BHN come to?

I realize these are leading questions, but because I am trying to limit variables, I can't say a way to avoid leading (i.e., I realize I'm closing off options). Just hopeful for the thoughts of folks. Thanks.

[DougGuy]

Everything sounds good except 200yds. I think realistically 125 will be about IT with the WFN boolit and still guarantee accuracy, you will just have to see how well it shoots at distances. 200yds sounds just a bit on the optimistic side IMO.

50/50+2% is my chosen alloy for .44 and .45 Rugers and it is perfect for Ruger rifling and twist rate. I do use a copper gas check and Felix or other good soft lube.

[huntinlever]

Great, thanks Doug.

On the yards, I should have said, I'm not looking for flat trajectory, sorry. I've got a BDC scope and will be practicing holdover at 100, 150, 200 yards. My eyes aren't what they used to be and it's probably too optimistic for me to want to rely on my Skinner, but may end up trying. At any rate, learning the rainbow of the caliber, not trying to turn it into a flatter shooter out to 200. Did you mean that the WFN starts to fly wildly out there, regardless of how well I learn holdover?

[runfiverun]

much like a full wad cutter will.

your assumptions of alloy and water dropping giving the final bhn is going to be influenced by the temp of the boolit when it hits the water and the temp of the water when it gets there.
45/70 boolits will heat up a gallon of water pretty quickly so that will change, and is why most that want consistency will use an oven.
and a heat soak time of a full hour.

your alloy is fine.
I'd cut the tin down to 1%
and wait a month to check the bhn.

[44man]

Soft works better when shot slow, like BP. Sorry, it is true. The worst I ever used on a deer was a 50-50 oven hardened to 18-20 BHN but it was also a HP. Just 1630 fps from my revolver with so much destruction of meat it was crazy. The alloy does not lose it's expansion when hardened.
I shoot WLN and WFN boolits to 500 meters (547 yards) with astounding accuracy so I do not believe in the stability stuff, spin first. You can't compare a wad cutter with a WLN because of the way they steer a cylinder. I don't know about a wad cutter in a rifle though but suspect some boolit damage.
If I hunted elk with a 45-70 I would prefer the old BP loads over too fast with soft.
How do you know what is right? You shoot game and see. You do not read about it.

[grouch]

For what it's worth,I suspect, given the normally slow twist rates in 45-70 you should get about any velocity you really want or need with something like 20:1 lead and tin, and often with better accuracy. Hard cast is often vastly overrated.
Grouch

[Bigslug]

Anything in the wheelweight family should be fine. You know that extreme lack of bison we have in the northern U.S.? It was largely caused by low-velocity .45 caliber bullets. With your Guide gun, you won't need to over think the process for little bitty creatures like bull elk. :mrgreen:

Based on recent gallon jug shoots, I really like what I have seen from straight wheelweight if penetration is the goal. Given that you are opting for a large meplat to do the work, I'd go for wheelweight with enough tin to ensure good fillout. Air-cooled at a BHN of about 12-14 will deform a little. If you want no deformation at all, water-drop them (BHN 22-24).

I only have a tiny database at this point so can't really call it scientific, but with a 130 grain flat nose out of a .32-20 WQWW is good for nine milk jugs, ACWW for six, and 20-1 lead/tin four (at about 10BHN, it makes a really pretty mushroom)

[huntinlever]

much like a full wad cutter will.

your assumptions of alloy and water dropping giving the final bhn is going to be influenced by the temp of the boolit when it hits the water and the temp of the water when it gets there.
45/70 boolits will heat up a gallon of water pretty quickly so that will change, and is why most that want consistency will use an oven.
and a heat soak time of a full hour.

your alloy is fine.
I'd cut the tin down to 1%
and wait a month to check the bhn.

Run, so if I'm hearing you right, a lot of the variability is due to the inconsistency of the water temp as you move through your casting session and, I'd imagine, the temp of the mould and therefore bullets at drop.

I'm trying to KISS, so let me ask another one. To me, I intuit BHN 16 is about right; obviously, I've nothing substantive to stand on but what I can conclude from everything I'm learning. The ingot book mentions air cooled 2% Sn WW age hardened for a couple weeks would hit this BHN target. I imagine some of the variability would also be taken out of the picture. Does this ring true with you - the method would get us close (say, +/1 1 BHN or so) to 16?

[huntinlever]

Soft works better when shot slow, like BP. Sorry, it is true. The worst I ever used on a deer was a 50-50 oven hardened to 18-20 BHN but it was also a HP. Just 1630 fps from my revolver with so much destruction of meat it was crazy. The alloy does not lose it's expansion when hardened.
I shoot WLN and WFN boolits to 500 meters (547 yards) with astounding accuracy so I do not believe in the stability stuff, spin first. You can't compare a wad cutter with a WLN because of the way they steer a cylinder. I don't know about a wad cutter in a rifle though but suspect some boolit damage.
If I hunted elk with a 45-70 I would prefer the old BP loads over too fast with soft.
How do you know what is right? You shoot game and see. You do not read about it.

One of the guys I've mentioned from Marlin owners actually switched from 350 grain narrower boolits at higher velocity to 465 grain, 50:50 to about BHN 18 or so - for just this reason, apparently. He found the lighter bullet was causing an extraordinary amount of meat damage and so started switching to bigger, and slower. And harder, actually. My trials, anyway, will follow the same line; 425's kept somewhat harder, anyway, to punch a clean wound channel but with the larger meplat and weight, a good amount of shock and knockdown power. That's the thought, anyway.

[huntinlever]

For what it's worth,I suspect, given the normally slow twist rates in 45-70 you should get about any velocity you really want or need with something like 20:1 lead and tin, and often with better accuracy. Hard cast is often vastly overrated.
Grouch

That's interesting about the twist rates, grouch, thanks. Need to investigate more how this works, but you've opened another window, so much appreciated, sounds fascinating and worthwhile looking into.

[huntinlever]

Anything in the wheelweight family should be fine. You know that extreme lack of bison we have in the northern U.S.? It was largely caused by low-velocity .45 caliber bullets. With your Guide gun, you won't need to over think the process for little bitty creatures like bull elk. :mrgreen:

Based on recent gallon jug shoots, I really like what I have seen from straight wheelweight if penetration is the goal. Given that you are opting for a large meplat to do the work, I'd go for wheelweight with enough tin to ensure good fillout. Air-cooled at a BHN of about 12-14 will deform a little. If you want no deformation at all, water-drop them (BHN 22-24).

I only have a tiny database at this point so can't really call it scientific, but with a 130 grain flat nose out of a .32-20 WQWW is good for nine milk jugs, ACWW for six, and 20-1 lead/tin four (at about 10BHN, it makes a really pretty mushroom)

Great Bigslug, thank you. Yep, whenever I start to overthink things (a tendency), think I need something faster (a tendency), bigger (a tendency - and here I'm talking needing a .300 Weatherby Mag for elk, v. my X-Bolt Med. 30-06 or my much loved 45/70)), or harder (a tendency) (yes, that's a lot of demons to wrestle down), I think of that example. My brother lives in CO and has a number of late-19th cent. 45/70's and 45/90's (I hate him). Routinely loves silhouette shooting at fairly crazy yardage. The muzzle report, the long pause, the "ding" way downrange...loves it, as would I. Trying to keep in mind the 45/70's intrinsic nature, I'm fighting this urge to make it into something it isn't....one of the reasons I plan to get a load, and perfect holdover shooting.

Anyway, I hear you and much appreciated. Per my post above, how do you feel about that one? If indeed straight ww with total of 2% Sn, air cooled and aged out 2 weeks or better - would you think this is close to 16 BHN, and would you call this sufficiently hard to push at 1550-1600 tops, to yield a clean wound channel all the way through - or would you call for more, into the Beartooth/Cast Performance range of 22-24 BHN?

[Bigslug]

Anyway, I hear you and much appreciated. Per my post above, how do you feel about that one? If indeed straight ww with total of 2% Sn, air cooled and aged out 2 weeks or better - would you think this is close to 16 BHN, and would you call this sufficiently hard to push at 1550-1600 tops, to yield a clean wound channel all the way through - or would you call for more, into the Beartooth/Cast Performance range of 22-24 BHN?

For deer, no matter - the length of the entire animal probably won't stop it. For elk, I would water drop them to the harder BHN and forget any notion of intentionally taking a bone shot. Punch them through that nice mass of heart, lung, and major arteries and let your fat meplat make a big, leaky hole. I've seen an elk shoulder pretty effectively stop most of a .375 RUM from 400 yards, and he took a fair amount of killin' afterwards about an hour later when we hiked across the valley to follow him up - probably due to adrenaline from the pain of the bounce. Go for the soft target, then let them drain quietly. Take out the engine, and there won't be a NEED to destroy the suspension.

[huntinlever]

Fantastic, thanks for the posts bigslug. Copied, for permanent reflection!

[High Desert Hunter]

I just ordered a 460gr WFNGC mold from Accurate Molds, looks to be a perfect duplicate for a bullet I used in Alaska, making reliable hits beyond 200 yards was no problem even from my 1895GS and Williams Peep. Takes a lot to stop that bullet when cast COWW are used, I water drop all of my bullets, they all shoot the same.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-460CG-D.png

[Screwbolts]

OP, IMHO a 45 cal boolit with a .330 meplat is not a WFN, it is what IMHO, is refered to as a LFN ( Long Flat Nose) I shot .452 330 gr .330 meplat boolits (from a LBT mold ), out of smokeless muzzleloaders. They hold fine accuracy out to 350 yards and beyond. I have harvested deer A 257 yards with one. IMHO, your long, heavy boolitz will fly like they have wings on them.

Ken

[huntinlever]

I just ordered a 460gr WFNGC mold from Accurate Molds, looks to be a perfect duplicate for a bullet I used in Alaska, making reliable hits beyond 200 yards was no problem even from my 1895GS and Williams Peep. Takes a lot to stop that bullet when cast COWW are used, I water drop all of my bullets, they all shoot the same.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-460CG-D.png


High hunter, that is exactly the bullet my friend that I mentioned uses. And he has told me of its deadly effect. It's all he uses. It's out of his Ruger, I believe. I'm glad to hear you use it in your GS as I wasn't sure it could be chambered and still seat properly. Good luck, seems to be a devastating boolit!

[huntinlever]

OP, IMHO a 45 cal boolit with a .330 meplat is not a WFN, it is what IMHO, is refered to as a LFN ( Long Flat Nose) I shot .452 330 gr .330 meplat boolits (from a LBT mold ), out of smokeless muzzleloaders. They hold fine accuracy out to 350 yards and beyond. I have harvested deer A 257 yards with one. IMHO, your long, heavy boolitz will fly like they have wings on them.

Ken

Screwbolts, yeah, you're right - I can be sloppy sometimes. I routinely switch WLNGC and WFNGC, whichever the boolit I'm talking about happens to be. Sorry. And thanks for your experience points, and your encouragement to flight! That is an impressive kill!

[DougGuy]

huntinlever don't ask me why or how things happen, LOL.. I wound up with some .45 caliber Hornady gas checks that I -thought- I was buying for my .45 Colt loads, but they are .460" and just the ticket for a .45 caliber RIFLE! Let me know if you'd like to have them.

Now that I look at your boolit drawing, I will retract the statement about the yardage. Yes you still have to spin it fast enough but it's long and should be a great performer. I am retracting my statement based solely on the length of the boolit, I had in mind a boolit with a LFN and not much of a driving band, this one has a LOT of driving band.. Should let it step right on out there.

[huntinlever]

Hey Doug, wow, thanks for telling me that - I wasn't even aware there's a difference, had them on a Midway cart and didn't know there's a different set for rifles. Thanks and you bet, I'd love to buy them - will PM with contact, etc.

Just to make sure, mine is the 425 and not Screwbolts' 460. Here's the drawing (http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-425Q-D.png). Was this the one you saw?

[huntinlever]

Sorry guys, the person I was talking about is on here as well, I just saw, Crusty. And his is not a mould from Accurate, but Bruce Babore, who apparently is no longer making moulds. I respect Crusty quite a bit and have learned as much from him, still learning. Here's a post (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171285-45-70-Cast-Deer-Hunting&p=1917022&viewfull=1#post1917022) in which he discusses some of this stuff - more in a post higher up on the page. Anyway, in case others find it interesting.

[DougGuy]

Hey Doug, wow, thanks for telling me that - I wasn't even aware there's a difference, had them on a Midway cart and didn't know there's a different set for rifles. Thanks and you bet, I'd love to buy them - will PM with contact, etc.

Just to make sure, mine is the 425 and not Screwbolts' 460. Here's the drawing (http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-425Q-D.png). Was this the one you saw?

That boolit is .460 which is correct for a 45/70 RIFLE. The gas check shank is the part that is .425"

[huntinlever]

Sorry, I wasn't thinking. I just meant I wasn't aware there are different 45 cal gas checks out there. Thanks again, Doug.

[huntinlever]

Guys, I'd like to add, I've some concerns over today's ww smelting that I'd like to ask about. It might have been because I rushed dropping the ingots, but a few of them broke and - sorry if this is a REALLY dumb question but I've no experience whatsoever at what cast metal is supposed to look like on the inside - but the grain inside was well, really grainy looking. Guess I'm concerned I might have lost a lot of Sn to oxide, though I did flux with charcoal (in this case, dry leaves), and was able to consistently get the Sn skin turned back in.

So, question on whether that signals a quality problem at all. Probably just being paranoid.

Secondly, adding in a small portion of tin - Run five, I know you mentioned 1%, I might go as high as the 2%, not sure yet - at any rate, this will act as additional "insurance" on the bullet toughness, filling out, etc., at the intended BHN of 16-18 when I move to casting this 50:50, yes?

Edit: Man, I need to write when I'm not tired. Runfive, I just got what you're talking about. 50:50 would get me about 1.5% Sb, so of course, don't want more Sn than the Sb. Got it, thanks. Right now using the site's calculator what I have in an estimate for a 50:50 with added Sn is 97.3 Pb, 1.53 Sb, 1.03 Sn and .12 As.

[Bigslug]

Take a deep breath and don't panic. You're dealing with not just the "good enough / pretty flexible" side of metallurgy in general, but the "good enough / pretty flexible" side of bullet casting in particular. You have big bullets which are structurally pretty strong just by nature of their shape; are running them at very comfortable cast bullet velocities; and are keeping the antimony content well below any kind of brittleness threshold (indeed, with your naked wheelweights, you are STARTING there).

The point being: while it is fun and educational to treat the science with all the care that might go into crafting a Japanese sword, the beauty is that you don't NEED to for the big-and-slow game you are presently playing. Of all the things you COULD shoot an elk with, a high-weight .45-70 solid at brush gun distances is probably among the most forgiving with regard to ammo construction. Cast your slugs, work up an accuracy load, annihilate a few rows of milk jugs for confidence sake, and go hunting. Save the ulcers for when you get to high speed smallbores and gas checks.:veryconfu

As to tin loss to oxide in a smelt: it happens, and I personally don't sweat it. It is, after all, a small percentage of a (still) relatively cheap metal occupying a mere skin on the top of a very large quantity of what was a moment ago pretty useless junk. Getting your metal liquid, cleaned, fluxed, and poured in a relatively short period will reduce this loss, but I feel it's not something worth losing sleep over. It's just the cost of smelting scrap.

[huntinlever]

Bigslug, got you. It appears you've sniffed me out. To see more, just posted (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?183438-Water-quenching-and-hardness&p=3213292&viewfull=1#post3213292), as an example. My essential nature is to perseverate to attempt perfection in a single draw (your sword analogy is apt, and intuitive - I was an uchideshi to a Japanese zen and martial master, and became an iaido and aikido instructor as a result). So I hear you, and thanks.

[scottfire1957]

Alloys aside. Trajectory shooting a "slow" cast boolit vs. a "fast" jacketed bullet is gonna be major consideration. 125 yrds vs. 200, as you asked about.

Velocity matters, as far as trajectory is concerned.

[huntinlever]

Scottfire, hear you and I'm definitely on the big, wide bullet shot slower, with a rainbow trajectory side of things.

[scottfire1957]

Scottfire, hear you and I'm definitely on the big, wide bullet shot slower, with a rainbow trajectory side of things.


Cool.

[Screwbolts]

huntinlever, your boolit is simply a longer, slightly larger version of what I am shooting. Mine are .452 and smooth sided for sabot use. IMHO if you motivate it around 1650 from the muzzle it will perform like magic, fly like it has wings. ( you can learn the trajectory simply by shooting ) Set your scope on 4X, sight in 2" high at 100, should be right on or very close at 150, 3" low at 200, and point of bottom duplex at 300 on 4X, but shoot at these ranges to see and learn were it hits, at all ranges on 4X or whatever power you choose to match the trajectory and range find with. Now you can range your target on 4x or your choice of power, fixed power works also and know were to hold almost instantly. IMHO it will need no expansion and it will drive straight threw leaving up to a 1.5 to 2" wound cavity along the way, to let out blood and air in. IMHO, It you don't try to drive it at light speed you should be able to eat right up to the hole, and still be able to see after you put pressure on the trigger.

Ken

[huntinlever]

Wow, thank you screwbolts for yet another fantastic and helpful post.

I spent the day at a 800-1000 yd. Parma fundraiser at my club. Got me seriously keyed to cast and load my own, and play with longer range trajectory silhouettes. Great to read your post, screwbolts, will be fun to try it out.

So, have smelted lots of ww and lots of "pure" Pb; would like to add in some 95/5 to bring the Sn and Sb up to parity. Will water quench this sweetened 50:50 to see where we are. I've got plenty in reserve to trial out straight w/w (with 2% Sn as sweetener), so will be good to get going.