Black Powder 44-40 WCF

[texaswoodworker]

How do you guys like BP in a 44-40 WCF? What bullets and powder do you like? How about primers? Does standard LP primers work fine, or are magnum primers better?

[Outpost75]

This is the Black Powder Bible on the .44-40 and tells you EVERYTHING that you need to know:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265478-My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey

[cajun shooter]

Outpost 75, John and I are very good friends and his information is rock solid as he has put much time with the cartridge as I have also. If you contact him I think he will tell you that my bullet, the 43-210B will work very well when used with the NASA lube with Carnauba Flakes added. Later David AKA Fairshake

[Outpost75]

The Accurate bullets of traditional form having correct lubricant capacity for black powder are the following:

136526136527136528136674136530

[mazo kid]

That is a great link for a bunch of information. I recently loaded up a bunch of black powder 44-40 cartridges using an old Win. 44 WCF mold and an Ideal tong tool, just to get a flavor of what the "old timers" did. I pan lubed the boolits.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/mazokid/Reloads44-40003_zpsb0962faa.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mazokid/media/Reloads44-40003_zpsb0962faa.jpg.html)

[mazo kid]

Here are some ready to go:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/mazokid/Reloads44-40005_zps1f063983.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mazokid/media/Reloads44-40005_zps1f063983.jpg.html)

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I use 3F compressed 1/16 th under a cereal box wad plus usually a 224+ grain (my range lead) soft cast from a Saeco 443 mold. Lube is 55% bees wax and 45% olive oil. Tastes good on toast also. This mold drops my range lead at .430+ which works nicely in every Winchester 92 44 WCF I have tried it in down here. I think that is one rifle and 4 carbines.
I use a scoop with 3F. I think the charge weights about 34 grains. Been years since I weighed my scoop charge.
Mike in Peru

[cajun shooter]

Outpost 75 Not quite sure what your posting was representing, if it was to reply to my statement, for what purpose? Take care David

[cajun shooter]

Mike, If you are using the Lee 2.2 measure with Goex 3F , I'm getting 33.2 grains with a level scoop of Goex 3F from the Moosic,Pa. plant. It was most likely a made scoop. I see where I overlooked your part about home made.
Please excuse my old eyes. Take Care David

[Outpost75]

Outpost 75 Not quite sure what your posting was representing, if it was to reply to my statement, for what purpose? Take care David

Simply to illustrate the black powder line of Accurate's bullets for the .44-40 for those who may be unfamiliar.

[texaswoodworker]

Thanks for the info guys. It looks like this will be a fun project. :D

[longinosoap]

44-40 is made for black powder. I use both Pinnacle sub (which is no longer available from PowderInc) and Goex 3f. For either I use the Lee 2.9 scoop of powder with .3 scoop of grits (or cream of wheat, coffee, et al) on top. Covered by a 200 grain piece of lead poured from a Lee mould it compresses about 1/16". I have used both regular and magnum primer with no discernible difference since I don't own a chrono. Pinnacle get alox and Goex is lubed with 50/50 beeswax/crisco or lard with a drizzle of olive oil or canola oil.

[Hogpost]

Oh my yes: the 44-40 in BP! Can't imagine having any fun with it in smokeless. You didn't say whether you intend it for rifle or pistol, or both (our ancestors found it ideal both ways) but I shoot it in a single-action Colt. After trying virtually everything for about a year, I finally settled on the 200grn RNFP Saeco bullet with SPG or DGL lube over 38 grns Swiss FFFG. Far more accurate than my eyes, and powerful enough to dispatch a wounded 200lb feral pig with one head shot. I found Swiss to be clearly the cleanest and most consistent powder available; and the triple-F is soooooo clean.

You're gonna love it!

[texaswoodworker]

It's going to be mainly for a 4.75" SAA. I'd love to try some Swiss powder. I'd have to order it though. Right now, I don't shoot enough BP to justify ordering enough to justify the shipping costs. Hopefully that will change. :D

[longinosoap]

Don't know where in Texas you are but if you're close to Bastrop give a visit to Dan's Gun Shop just north of town. He keeps Goex in stock for $19/lb. Cheaper than paying freight and hazmat.

[texaswoodworker]

I'm in the NE corner, so that's a bit of a drive for me. :o

Thanks for the tip though. If I'm ever in the area, I'll stop by.

[hporter]

texaswoodworker,

10ring.com in North Houston generally has Swiss FFFG in stock , if you ever come this far south. I would call first though, as powder stocks have been fluctuating a bit lately.

[montana_charlie]

I'm in the NE corner,
Would that be close to Texarkana ... or more like Pampa?

[Grapeshot]

How do you guys like BP in a 44-40 WCF? What bullets and powder do you like? How about primers? Does standard LP primers work fine, or are magnum primers better?

I really like BP in my .44-40/.44WCF cartridges. I usually use the MAV Dutchman 200 grain big lube boolit with my home made lube. I stick with GOEX 2Fg and light them off with a large Magnum Pistol Primer. I use them because When I can't get GOEX I use Pyrodex P and it seems to like the hotter primers.

I also use home cast RCBS 44-200-CM 44 which work quite well out of my 1873 Uberti short rifle. (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/515090/rcbs-2-cavity-cowboy-bullet-mold-44-200-cm-44-caliber-428-430-diameter-200-grain-flat-nose)

(http://www.midwayusa.com/product/515090/rcbs-2-cavity-cowboy-bullet-mold-44-200-cm-44-caliber-428-430-diameter-200-grain-flat-nose)

[Klaus]

Thats my last Goal with Black in the 44 Win. on 50 m Freehand
The Black Bucket measured around 2 inch to 1,2 / 1,7 inch

138238
15 Shoots without any cleaning between shoots

Rifle Hege Uberti 24'# Winchester 73
Load 28 grs Wano Sporting Powder
Milkcarton Wad
RCBS 44 200 grs Bullet
Emmerts Lube
would like to say that all in the white are depending on me ! :(

Klaus

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

This is the Black Powder Bible on the .44-40 and tells you EVERYTHING that you need to know:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265478-My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey
Amen brother.
I "met" John online at the CAS forum. With the info there and some guidance from John my Uberti 1873 is now my favorite rifle. As a matter of fact it will never see smokeless powder again. A joy to shoot and easy to clean. So far I have shot up to 150 rounds of black powder ammo in a match without cleaning, or needing to. I will not re-explain as you can read about it in the links above and below. I will add that I bought a 44wcf hand gun as a companion. Talk about a fire breathing dragon ! Accurate, powerful and fun fun fun.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40683.0.html

[ndnchf]

I took my '73 carbine to the range today. I'd loaded some Lyman 427098s over 34gr of Old Eynsford 2F. I'd say the old girl still has it in her!

[Outpost75]

Bravo Zulu! Splendid indeed.

[ndnchf]

Bravo Zulu! Splendid indeed.

Not many folks know what that means. But being a retired Navy Chief, I do. Thanks.

[Outpost75]

Not many folks know what that means. But being a retired Navy Chief, I do. Thanks.

Surface Line, Mighty Fine! Splice the main brace and have a tot with me.

[ndnchf]

Indeed, the sun is over the yardarm somewhere in the empire - time for a mug of grog!

[Outpost75]

Indeed, the sun is over the yardarm somewhere in the empire - time for a mug of grog!

I trust you are mature enough to take your rum tot neat. Grog was only used to enforce intake of the lime ration to prevent scruvy on long voyages among enlisted ratings not having attained the age of thirty years. Officer ranks and senior enlisted personnel can be entrusted with demon rum. Some traditions from the age of wooden ships and iron men are worthwhile to preserve. A willing enemy and sea room to ya....

[ndnchf]

I trust you are mature enough to take your rum tot neat...

Indeed sir, I've been retired for over 17 years!

[cajun shooter]

The original posting by Outpost75 left out my bullet that I worked on with John when he first started making the molds. My design was an improvement on the original BP bullet made by Lyman for the 44wcf cartridge.
The original bullet was the Lyman 42798 which later became the 427098. It worked fine with the early loadings as the BP was much better refined and left little residue. Once this was changed, several shooters started having troubles, including myself. The first thing that Lyman did was to go from the square lube grooves and started with a more rounded edge groove which held much less lube than the original style did. In my testing, it was as much as half in some cases.
I contacted Tom at Accurate on a Monday and had my Mold on Friday of that same week, times have changed. I asked Blammer to draw my bullet and then we made the changes that ended up being the 43-210B 44wcf bullet. Shooting from my Uberti 18 1/2 inch barrel model 73 and my Uberti revolvers, this bullet is not only accurate out to 300 yards (testing by John Kort aka w30wcf aka w44wcf) in his guns. I've never had one inch of lead fouling.
John uses SPG lube and I use NASA lube. He had fouling with his Marlin 24inch barrel with my bullet and the SPG that occurred in the very last 2 inches of barrel. This is the reason John went on to design the 43-215C.
Used with my lube, the 43-210B is a very good design even after 142 years of service and I feel should be included in the called for bullets. I've been a 44wcf fan since my friend allowed me to shoot his 73 way back in the middle 70's. Take Care David

[Outpost75]

The original posting by Outpost75 left out my bullet that I worked on with John when he first started making the molds. My design was an improvement on the original BP bullet made by Lyman for the 44wcf cartridge.
The original bullet was the Lyman 42798 which later became the 427098. It worked fine with the early loadings as the BP was much better refined and left little residue. Once this was changed, several shooters started having troubles, including myself. The first thing that Lyman did was to go from the square lube grooves and started with a more rounded edge groove which held much less lube than the original style did. In my testing, it was as much as half in some cases.
I contacted Tom at Accurate on a Monday and had my Mold on Friday of that same week, times have changed. I asked Blammer to draw my bullet and then we made the changes that ended up being the 43-210B 44wcf bullet. Shooting from my Uberti 18 1/2 inch barrel model 73 and my Uberti revolvers, this bullet is not only accurate out to 300 yards (testing by John Kort aka w30wcf aka w44wcf) in his guns. I've never had one inch of lead fouling.
John uses SPG lube and I use NASA lube. He had fouling with his Marlin 24inch barrel with my bullet and the SPG that occurred in the very last 2 inches of barrel. This is the reason John went on to design the 43-215C.
Used with my lube, the 43-210B is a very good design even after 142 years of service and I feel should be included in the called for bullets. I've been a 44wcf fan since my friend allowed me to shoot his 73 way back in the middle 70's. Take Care David

Thanks for the additional history and clarification.

[heelerau]

I have just followed the late Johns' information and have loaded 20 compressed 40 grain FFFg loads for my Henry using the same original mould as pictured further to the beginning of this thread. Great information, will be interested to see how it goes as traditionally I have only ever loaded about 31 grains of FFFg in a 44/40 case as that was all I was told you could fit as the modern cases do not have the balloon head like the originals did supposedly giving greater capacity. Will be interesting to see how they go, lube used is the same as I use in the Pat 53 Enfield, 5parts beeswax to 1 part unsalted lard by volume. I am using pure lead at the moment, what alloy should it be please?

[Randy Bohannon]

I followed the information given in John's great post.Having been a long time BPCR shooter with many different rifles and applied what I have learned with their recommendations on bullet styles and what shot best at the greatest distance resonable for the cartridge. I bought one of the fancy Winchester 'Deluxe' 1873's with a shotgun butt,it shoots really good, Then I bought another Win. 1873 with 24" tapered octogon barrel. This one shoots lights out to 200M silhouette ram 10 for 10 on a nice day. It comes down to who's bullet mould will you use and what powder,Wads are absolutely uneccesary 16:1 alloy and good lube like SPG zero leading using 215 gr and 230 gr mould from Tom at Accurate moulds. I have only used B/P in both rifles and see no need to play with smokeless. 40 grs. of O.E. and 230 gr. bullet is as much as I think the action will take and have a reasonable long life, it pushes that bullet 1600 fps and fair felt recoil and superb accuracy. I have had zero issues compressing 35-40 grs. of O.E. 1.5 or 2F zero leading in either rifle, I have loaded the magazine and did a "lever action mag dump" I had some hard fouling that cleaned up with a few wet patches of napa oil and water. Don't hesitate with real B/P it's better now than ever, the rifles, brass,primers and moulds are better now than ever before. 38 grs. O.E. 215 gr. bullet. R/P brass I have to size the bullets to.429"/ Win. brass .430 bullets or as cast.

[BrentD]

Randy, that's an very impressive target, no matter what distance you shot it at.

You have me thinking of shooting bp for my .38-40 again in the silhouette nationals next year. This seems like it would be a lot of compression to load 40 grns. Do you have any trouble with swelling the brass cases - they are pretty thin.

[heelerau]

Thanks Randy for the information, ver nice group, what range? I have both a Uberti Henry, brass framed and a '73 carbine. Both normally shoot ver well.

[heelerau]

Well Gentlemen, banged off 21 rounds out of my Uberti Henry rifle in 50 yard off hand comp, about a 4 inch group, in poor light and poi equalled poi, which was a fine sight on the bottom of the black, group slightly to the right, no fouling, all rounds fed nicely. Will be using 40 grain compressed loads from now on. !! Best pleased all round. Thank you gentlemen.

[Wayne Smith]

Randy, that's an very impressive target, no matter what distance you shot it at.

You have me thinking of shooting bp for my .38-40 again in the silhouette nationals next year. This seems like it would be a lot of compression to load 40 grns. Do you have any trouble with swelling the brass cases - they are pretty thin.

I did when loading Remington cases. Dropped back to 37gr and no swelling. Maybe no swelling with Starline?

[Randy Bohannon]

I have a pile of Starline, Winchester brass and a couple hundred RP pieces of 44-40 brass and have yet to try the Starline. Win. Brass is the ‘roomiest’ brass and have never swelled a case with a compression die made for the purpose. RP is thicker, still with zero bulging.I shot the target posted @100 yds. I am using all Montana Vintage Arms sights, front and rear,superior sights in all respects for target or hunting sights for a lever rifle or any B/P cartridge rifle,not cheap but neither were the rifles.

[BrentD]

MVA sites are simply the best. It is still a mystery to me that so many lever gunners do not understand that .

[Chill Wills]

100% agree that good sights are sooo repeatable and user friendly.

I have had it with late make Lyman and Marbles sights on lever rifles. But they look right compared to a receiver sight.
My shooting pard Woody has been using MVA's on his levers for about 15 years to shoot the silhouette matches.
I mostly limp along with the junk Lyman tang sights. A good receiver sight IS good for hunting as it is trim and repeatable but lacks fine adjustment easily.
One of the issues with this larger sight is opening the actions and clearing the sights. You may have to fold back the tang each time you cycle the action.

BUT :bigsmyl2: Steve Baldwin provided me a Winchester sight base to install my Baldwin soul sights on the Winchester 1886 (38-56) I hope to be shooting in the future. MVA, Baldwin.... it is hard to say one is better but I am stuck on Baldwin sights because they turn the correct way for me, just like Olympic sights and I really need to have every sight I use turning the same direction or I will go left when I want to go right. I hate it when I do that!



So I will be joining the ranks of riflemen with better sights on lever rifles. Or at least a few rifles I shoot steel with.

[Randy Bohannon]

Nothing wrong with Baldwin or Kelley all make good sights .What they lack is selection compared to MVA. Well made vernier or soule sights that fit are worth their weight in gold and usually in the winners circle ⭕️.

[Joe C]

Randy

Can you tell me what sights you have on your rifle , I have an order in (backorder) with MVA for one of the 130 series sights , would like to now which you have, and also which front sight you are using .
thanks

Joe

[heelerau]

Gentlemen, I tossed about 20 .44/40 cases and some .357 cases that I loaded with black, into the washing machine, secured in a small calico sample bag, well tied off, with a load of my jeans , work shirts and sox, interesting to see how they clean up. The war office insisted I use the front loader that I wash saddle blankets in !!

[Randy Bohannon]

Joe C ,

I am using MVA sight # 134 and I have a # 130 , get one with windage adjustments. The 130 is elevation only and have found some tang sight screw holes we’re not perfectly aligned and moving the front sight looks terrible. The 133 and 134 are the same with elevation screw either on top or bottom,get the top lead elevation screw,mine #134 doesn’t lay down forward as nicely when desired. Both have just enough elevation on a pistol grip stock ,you lose some elevation with a P/G stock vs straight stock. They are good to 200M maybe a bit more. The upside to MVA is I have their Buffalo L/R and a Mid range soule sights if I need more,unlikely with the 44-40 WCF for my purposes.
I have used all of their front sights and have many on many rifles I have come to prefer their #115/116 front sights lower profile and a cleaner look,the #111 has a clip on top and hangs up on everything cloth.
Note, I also use their Hadley eye cup, it makes a huge difference in any given light,I-have both the regular and the “Magnum” enough $ difference between the two the “Magnum” doesn’t offer enough additional hole sizes to benefit the 44-40 WCF.

[heelerau]

Gentlemen, I tossed about 20 .44/40 cases and some .357 cases that I loaded with black, into the washing machine, secured in a small calico sample bag, well tied off, with a load of my jeans , work shirts and sox, interesting to see how they clean up. The war office insisted I use the front loader that I wash saddle blankets in !!
Well it does not work to badly, and did not mess up the other washing. Now drying them in the oven at low temp.

[indian joe]

Well it does not work to badly, and did not mess up the other washing. Now drying them in the oven at low temp.

There is a distinct possibility the war office lady might be smarter than you thought:bigsmyl2:

[heelerau]

Indian Joe, no argument on that point !!