gun blew up

[reloader28]

Got back from the ER about 2:30 this morning. My 45-70 blew up in my hands.
For all those that wonder what that feels like, take a firecracker going off in your hand and times that by about 80,004. Make no mistake about it, it hurt.
I only have less than a 100 rounds thru this Marlin guide gun since my wife gave it to me last year for Valentines day.
Shooting 26gr 2400 and 405gr NOE from that stubby barrel. I don't know what in the world happened. 2 rounds just fine and on the third it blew in half.

No broken wrist bones thankfully, maybe the pinky. It shattered the pinky nail and I'll lose that. They stitched up a big hole in my thumb. It was up against the artery, but didn't cut it. It blew the skin off some of the palm and there is 3 or 4 other shallower holes and some other cuts.
The gun is blown in half. Barrel was not blocked, its not an over pressure load, I don't get it. Maybe a weak gun.

[pworley1]

I am glad that you survived. Sorry about the rifle.

[richhodg66]

Wow! Scary stuff. Glad you're OK.

[scarry scarney]

WOW! Sorry to hear your loss, glad to hear no real damage to you.

[texaswoodworker]

I'm glad you weren't hurt worst than your were.

Have someone professionally inspect the gun. If it was caused by a manufacturing defect, then I think someone owes you an apology, along with a new gun and a check for your medical bills.

[Char-Gar]

I only have less than a 100 rounds thru this Marlin guide gun since my wife gave it to me last year for Valentines day.Shooting 26gr 2400 and 405gr NOE from that stubby barrel. I don't know what in the world happened. The gun is blown in half. Barrel was not blocked, its not an over pressure load, I don't get it. Maybe a weak gun.

I know it is hard to accept our own weakness and thus easier to blame the gun, BUT that was indeed an over pressure round, very over pressure in fact. 26/2400/405 is not an over pressure load, but that is not what was in the chamber when you pulled the trigger.

I am guessing you dropped the hammer on 52/2400/405 and that will cut a good rifle in half!

[varminter66]

I am glad you are alive to tell about it, and that no one around you was harmed.

There will be time to sort out what happened, but for now, it's best to rest, heal, and count your blessings.

Get well soon.

Mike

[DougGuy]

I would have to suspect an overcharge of 2400. If you say you are sure there was no barrel blockage, as in you saw the 2nd boolit register on the target, there are only two ways for a KB to happen, one would be with a scant amount of 2400 and it all detonated at once but I doubt it would do that kind of damage with a minute amount, and so the other scenario would be an overcharge or double charge of 2400.

Glad there was not worse injuries, hope you heal up quickly..

[reloader28]

I thought about a double charge. Very possible, even though I always check after powdering before seating the bullet.
Maybe I missed it.

I'm going to mount this gun on the wall.
We did add pictures.

[matrixcs]

Wishing you a speedy recovery. Too bad about the rifle.

[gtgeorge]

Very sorry to hear of your injury to both you and your rifle. That sure looks like a double charge but either way glad it was no worse although bad. Posts like this remind us all how bad things can go wrong and why we need the protection for our eyes etc. Hope you heal completely and that you never go through that again.

[ascast]

glad you survived ! i use pistol powders sometimes, and your mishap is why we need imr4759

[dualsport]

Dang! That's a shame on both counts. Messed you up and ruined a nice gun. I'm glad it wasn't worse!

[starnbar]

You are a VERY LUCKY MAN hope you heal up ok.

[DougGuy]

See, I may be anal about things but it builds in insurance against an unfortunate event. I reasoned this:

A. If I am loading to shoot for groups, I want to load the most consistent and most accurate loads I can produce, so to take the variable out of the equation, I weigh EVERY charge. I set a primed case on a digital scale, hit the tare button to zero it out, and charge the case. Set it back on there, and use a pair of hemostats to either grab some powder from a case I keep to the side for this purpose, or grab some powder out of the case on the scale if it is slightly over. Either way, I get it to the exact 1/10th of the grain that I am wanting.

B. If I am loading hunting ammo, I want to load the most consistent and most accurate loads I can produce, so to take the variable out of the equation, I weigh EVERY charge. Simply because I want to know within the space of a tennis ball, WHERE my boolit will strike on a deer.

C. I got smooth enough and fast enough at charging cases and weighing them that I just integrated into my reloading practices to weigh every charge. I guess if I shot 1,500 rounds a week or month I couldn't possibly spend the time required to weigh each charge but I don't shoot that much anymore and so I can afford to assemble loads this way.

I do run .45 ACP in a progressive and don't weigh every charge but I look really good every time, and if I got a dbl charge the booilt wouldn't seat so I'm covered on this end by that.

[John Allen]

I am glad you will be ok. we have all had our misteps.

[varminter66]

There are numerous accounts of blown up guns using small amounts of fast burning powders in large capacity cases. That is why kapok, and other assorted fillers are recommended when loading these types of ammo... it keeps the powder close to the primer for more consistent ignition by filling the empty space, and supposedly reduces the possible hazards associated with this practice.

I simply avoid the issue altogether. For my cast boolits loads in larger rifle cases (35 Whelen), I purchased IMR SR4759. It is a bulky powder that produces reduced load results.

I just loaded some .22 Hornet cast boolits using the SR 4759, and it practically filled the case at 10% below max. I cannot wait to try them out.

Anyway... there is much to read about the hazards of reduced loads in large capacity cases. PO Ackley did extensive testing of this, as well as others. It's worth a read.

[gandydancer]

I have to agree with others on this as to a double charge of 2400 powder. It could have been a lot worse. Heal well and fast. GD

[reloader28]

I just checked. 52gr does fit, but I dont know if I could seat a bullet or not, I didnt try. Its a VERY full case.
On the other hand I dont know what else it could be.

[gray wolf]

Glad to hear you will be OK.

[tradbear55]

WOW! Glad you are still here to tell us about it. So glad you are alright. Really makes me rethink just throwing and checking every so often. Usually for rifle cartridges I weigh each individual load. But there is always that one time.

[jmort]

Praying for a full recovery. Bad deal on every level. Could have been far worse. My question, do you use a progressive? How do you charge your cases? There are lessons for all of us in this.

[w5pv]

Prayers for a complete recovery and what ever happed doesn't happen again.

[country gent]

There are several things that may have conributed to this event. A double charge but 52 grns would be a very full case to miss. A rifle issue but by the picture looks to be over pressure. Another that hasnt been brought up or questioned is was this Noe bullet a hollow base version? Hollow bases have been known to pull off remaing in the barrel also.

[Char-Gar]

I am glad you will be ok. we have all had our misteps.

I am also glad he will be OK, but all of us HAVE NOT had our mis-steps. Reloading accidents are not a necessary part of reloading, they are optional.

[Char-Gar]

I just checked. 52gr does fit, but I dont know if I could seat a bullet or not, I didnt try. Its a VERY full case.
On the other hand I dont know what else it could be.

I have loaded 54/4895/405 and killed deer with it. 2400 is allot denser than 4895, so loading a round with 52/2400/405 is not much of a trick.

[texaswoodworker]

I am also glad he will be OK, but all of us HAVE NOT had our mis-steps. Reloading accidents are not a necessary part of reloading, they are optional.

I believe most of us here have made some kind of misstep in our reloading endeavors at some point. Maybe not something as bad as double charging, but a lot of us have made mistakes. Some catch them, some don't. Reloading mistakes are not necessary, but are extremely easy to make. Especially if you load thousands upon thousands of rounds per year. The day you loose focus for a second could be the day that you miss that case with no powder charge in it.

[jmort]

No use in reasoning with Mr. perfect.

[JSnover]

I have not had anything like that happen, due in part to pure dumb luck. I was just thinking, I don't load more than fifty rounds at time. Less chance of distraction/fatigue, etc.

[osteodoc08]

Glad you're ok. Much better off than I was imagining before the pictures. Had a guy towards the end of last hunting season put his thumb up by the cylinder on his 460 when he touched one off. It obliterated and cauterize it at the same time taking the meat from his thumb almost down to the bone. He will be scarred for life but should still be functional.

[dragon813gt]

I hope you heal quickly. As much as I trust my reloading. Every time I see pictures like this I want to pull down every round I have loaded. Blowing up a rifle is a scary proposition. It reminds me that I really need to hook up some LEDs so I can really see into the cases when on the press.

[Remiel]

Get Better soon, sorry to see that you got hurt but its good to know you will be ok, Just take time to heal and get back on that horse(so to speak).

[Nueces]

Reloader28, a good first step in a forensic analysis of your mishap would be to pull down your remaining rounds and look for powder charge inconsistencies. A much reduced charge would tend to go with an overcharge, for example.

I bet you'd feel better if you were able to figure out what happened.

[waksupi]

There are numerous accounts of blown up guns using small amounts of fast burning powders in large capacity cases. That is why kapok, and other assorted fillers are recommended when loading these types of ammo... it keeps the powder close to the primer for more consistent ignition by filling the empty space, and supposedly reduces the possible hazards associated with this practice.

I simply avoid the issue altogether. For my cast boolits loads in larger rifle cases (35 Whelen), I purchased IMR SR4759. It is a bulky powder that produces reduced load results.

I just loaded some .22 Hornet cast boolits using the SR 4759, and it practically filled the case at 10% below max. I cannot wait to try them out.

Anyway... there is much to read about the hazards of reduced loads in large capacity cases. PO Ackley did extensive testing of this, as well as others. It's worth a read.


I think you meant light loads of slow burning powder.

[C. Latch]

Stuff like this is why I like loading ammo with charges that more-or-less fill the case.

Ouch.

[Budzilla 19]

Get healed up soon and if you figure it out, please post the cause. As was previously stated, get back on that horse, so to speak! Good luck to you.

[nicholst55]

Glad that you came out of this mess without any permanent disabling injuries. I would think that the loss of a rifle is pretty cheap compared to the loss of a hand/eye/whatever. Hopefully we all learned something from this episode.

[M-Tecs]

I think you meant light loads of slow burning powder.

Never proven in a lab but "detonation," as the catastrophic explosion of small charges of fast powders with 2.7 grains of Bullseye usually under a 148 grain WC bullet in a .38 Special case is the usual suspect. Much discussed

http://reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

http://forums.handloads.com/archive/forum_posts.asp?TID=22648

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?242236-detonation-in-handguns-with-fast-powders

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/137873-detonation-s-e-e-2.html

[thegatman]

Glad you are recovering. I shoot 45/70 and it is easy to double load that big case. I use Trailboss and have no problems. I do not shoot a lever action only single shots. Sorry about your gun.

[shoot-n-lead]

No use in reasoning with Mr. perfect.

X 2

He said he has never made a mistake...with a straight face...probably pathological...IDK.

[FISH4BUGS]

I hope for a quick and full recovery for you.
This makes me want to stop reloading. I have blown up two guns in my days - a S&W 3914 and a S&W 76 submachine gun. Both due to a double charge of 231. It was a military case that was not processed. Rather than clearing the cases from the shell plate (Dillon 550) apparently I just removed the case from the priming station and replaced it, leaving an already charged case in the powder station. Reprime, recharge (again) and KABOOM!
The 3914 was destroyed (bowed the slide badly) but the 76 just damaged the face of the bolt. Good thing the 76 was made from thick steel and not muffler pipe like a STEN!
Rest up...and enjoy the painkillers!

[NSB]

reloader28, I'm glad you're going to recover completely. I can imagine the pain, it must be quite uncomfortable. I wish you a speedy recovery. The 45-70 is one of my favorite cartridges....no, it is my favorite. I weigh every charge on this cartridge to avoid the situation you've just had. I dip every load and trickle up to zero on the scale. It's just too easy to double charge with this big a case and many powders will allow it to happen. We're all human and sooner or later we all make some kind of mistake we can't believe we made. It's just really bad when we do it with something this dangerous. Please consider weighing each charge. I don't do it with handgun cartridges I shoot in high volume but I do use powders that fill the case so a double charge is readily apparent. Get well soon.

[dubber123]

Glad you are OK and glad you will at least consider the possibility of a double charge. I've seen a lot of accidents that "Couldn't possibly be my fault". We all screw up, I've just been lucky so far I guess. They made a lot of Marlins, buy another and carry on!

[varminter66]

I think you meant light loads of slow burning powder.

No, although slow burning powder in reduced loads was one of the problems that PO wrote about. He also tested and wrote about using fast burning powders in large cases. He suspected that powder shifted toward the base of the bullet. When the powder was ignited by the primer, the pressure surge actually moved toward the base of the case, causing the remaining powder to clog in the neck under the base of the bullet, creating a blockage. Granted, he was referring to bottle neck cases.

There have been numerous other accounts by other writers regarding use of fast burning powders causing unusual pressure spikes when used in large capacity cases. It only seems sensible to me, that we use powders that are bulkier, filling at least half the case capacity. I don't hear of gun blow-ups from this practice, and there are far too many instances where people simply assume the reloader double charged the case.

[kristopher.wheeler]

Wow. Glad you're basically ok after that. Blow up like that could have led to missing fingers or a missing hand. :/

[Schrag4]

...I set a primed case on a digital scale, hit the tare button to zero it out, and charge the case. Set it back on there...

On another forum I said I do this to weigh my charges and I was told by those with experience that I was most certainly doing it wrong. I chalked it up to those people being set in their ways. I don't see an easier way to weigh powder charges than this. No dumping powder back and forth between case and pan and back to case, perhaps losing some along the way.

[Char-Gar]

X 2

He said he has never made a mistake...with a straight face...probably pathological...IDK.

If you are going to ridicule somebody at least get it right. I never said I have never made a mistake. I said I have never made a reloading mis-step. I have made many mistakes in life, but not any in reloading that ever got loaded into a firearm and discharged. A progressive press once gave me a funky round, and that is why I don't use those machines anymore.

Now, If you find that to be a piece of egotistical fantasy then you are not a fellow I want on my range as you are a hazard to yourself and those around you.

I have been reloading since 1958 and I was taught by my elders to be very, very careful with the process and I paid attention to what I was taught. I have never damaged a firearm, myself or anybody else with a reload. I don't know why you find that such a fantastic assertion.

Careless reloading is akin of a sky diver being careless when packing his chute. There are some things in life where carelessness can maim and kill and reloading is one of them. If you think all this care is laughable, then you are the one with a problem.

"Some learn by listening, others by watching and the rest have to pee on the electric fence"...Will Rogers

[Char-Gar]

On another forum I said I do this to weigh my charges and I was told by those with experience that I was most certainly doing it wrong. I chalked it up to those people being set in their ways. I don't see an easier way to weigh powder charges than this. No dumping powder back and forth between case and pan and back to case, perhaps losing some along the way.

I don't weight each charge, but this is the way I set a powder measure and it works very well. You are not doing it wrong.

[Char-Gar]

Well why not...I have spent my entire working life helping folks untangle their lives from messes they have made. A few were victims of other persons actions, but 99.9% got themselves into their own mess. There are two kinds of people that cannot be helped;

1. The folks who don't believe the mess in their lives could in any way be of their doing.
2. The folks who realize it was their own doing, but refuse to change the way they live and do things.

I have great sympathy and patience with folks who know they screwed up and don't want to make the same mistakes. I have no sympathy and patience with folks who do not take ownership of their screw ups and/or won't learn from their mistakes.

I have also learned that somebody needs to tell these folks the truth. They are not helped by folks who pat their hands and tell them "now, now you poor soul". Maturity comes in fits and starts at the hand of reality. Withholding reality does no good for anybody.

Any kind of incident like this you survive being able to walk, see where you are going and able to feed yourself, should be considered minor and a learning experience. I officiated at the funeral service of a fellow who thought smokeless and black powder could both be used in his new muzzle loader. They removed the breech plug from his brain during the autopsy.

[Sea Bear]

Thank God you made it alive! Sorry to hear about this accident. Get well soon!

[quietmike]

Glad you're going to be ok.

It sucks that you got hurt and lost a really good rifle, but reminders such as this are good from time to time to help us avoid being lax in the procedures.

[MT Chambers]

i hope you have a speedy recovery, and don't flinch for the rest of your life!!! I reload in a way that won't allow double charges, no small charges of fast powder, no progressive machines. I use a powder that fills the case for the most part, I use a powder measure and then trickle up to the exact charge. I also use a flashlight to look into all charged cases before going on to seating bullets.

[725]

Wow. Wish you a speedy recovery, With injuries like those, you can count your blessings that it wasn't worse. The loss of the rifle is insignificant when juxtaposed to the potential loss of life or limb.

[jcwit]

I pray for your complete recovery.

We all do our best, "well at least most of us do", even then errors happen, lets just hope we keep them to a minimum.

[Artful]

Thank goodness you were not hurt worse. I would definitely pull down and examine the other rounds from that session.

[Plate plinker]

bummer bud keep us posted on the investigation. heal up and get back at it.

[big bore 99]

Wow... Scary stuff! I reload 45-70 on a single stage press and have a small piece of wooden dowel marked with a line at my desired amount. I also put a red line at the bottom of the dowel to signify the bottom so as not to get the dowel upside down. I always, at least twice, check with the dowel before seating boolit. I haven't heard it discussed here, but having a lever gun, think it may have been possible that recoil could have set the boolit back deeper in the following rounds? Would that cause an overpressure?

[MarkP]

WOW! That looks very painful, I wish you a speedy and full recovery.

Thank you for sharing I hope more wear safety glasses as a result of seeing this.

[CastingFool]

sorry to hear about your mishap, Reloader28. Losing a gun is irrevelant, considering how badly things could have turned out.

[retread]

Get well soon friend. Thank God it was not more serious.

[jonas302]

Well I wouldn't have been in a picture taking mood right then

[dragonrider]

Glad you were not hurt worse than you are, Hope you heal well and quickly.

As a check I grabbed a 45-70 case and put 52 grns of 2400 in it. pics below

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/DSC06009_zpsuo1deaii.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PaulGauthier/media/DSC06009_zpsuo1deaii.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/DSC06008_zpsu99u23v6.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PaulGauthier/media/DSC06008_zpsu99u23v6.jpg.html)

It may not seem like it but there is 7/16" of space in the case and with a little tapping to settle it one can get it to 1/2" easily. I then grabbed a boolit that weighed in at just 400 grains and placed it into the case, as it is an unsized case the boolit just dropped right in, as can be seen in the next two photos a boolit can easily be installed and crimped into place without noticing that there is excess powder in the case.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/DSC06011_zpseodj2qcn.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PaulGauthier/media/DSC06011_zpseodj2qcn.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/DSC06010_zpsjloitfck.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PaulGauthier/media/DSC06010_zpsjloitfck.jpg.html)

I won't say that this is exactly what happened but that it could easily have been what happed.

[lar45]

Wow, I would like to thank you for sharing the story and pics.
I just shared the pics with the boys and said, this is why dad doesn't want to be interupted while reloading.
I hope you heal up without too many complications.

[jeepyj]

Get well wishes. I wish you the best figuring out what happened for your peace of mind.
jeepyj

[VintageRifle]

I hope you have a speedy recovery. Thanks for sharing.

[fouronesix]

Absolutely speedy recovery and best wishes. Takes real courage to share and I do appreciate the reminder. Knock on wood…. I've never kaboomed one after 50 years of reloading/shooting but that means little. I've done plenty of other bone head stunts. ANYONE who thinks they are above such mistakes, circumstances or accidents during any number of daily activities are either fooling themselves or trying to fool others. The best any of us can do is do our best and stay vigilant.

[TXGunNut]

Quarantine the gun, ammo and loading equipment NOW! Heal up and join me and others in hoping for a full and complete recovery. Once you have healed up, examine the gun, ammo and loading equipment. If you don't know what to look for let us know.

[CLAYPOOL]

My first trip out to shoot Prairie dogs my oldest came out and loaded shells for me. I told her to make certain as to what she was doing as me and my partner was going to be 60 miles from the only hospital (Rapid City) in that area. She still talks about how much fun that was. Her brother didn't get to help.. 1000 .22-250.

[snuffy]

That's just terrible. It'll take several months to heal, then make sure you get therapy. Looks like there's some muscle damage, maybe nerves as well.

It took a lot of courage to show this. Opening up to conjecture, then finding proof of what happened. I did the same thing a couple of years ago. I'll try to find the post, BRB.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?117936-What-a-double-charge-will-do

Wow 2011, seems like just last year. It sure did make me more careful. 55 years of loading makes you get complacent. If anything you should be MORE careful.

[starmac]

Hope for a speedy recovery, no matter what went wrong, your bad experience reminds us all to be carefull.

[tdoyka]

i wish you a speedy recovery.

[MaryB]

Prayers for a speedy recovery and full use of the hand! A a good reminder that every step needs to be checked twice! I only load in 50 rounds blocks right now but m looking a a Lee Loadmaster... AR-15 goes through lots of ammo!

[shoot-n-lead]

Prayers for a speedy recovery and full use of the hand! A a good reminder that every step needs to be checked twice! I only load in 50 rounds blocks right now but m looking a a Lee Loadmaster... AR-15 goes through lots of ammo!

If you get the Loadmaster...be very careful as the malfunctions from the priming system can be a real distraction with them and that can lead to squibs and double charges due to stopping the press to clear the priming problem.

[Mk42gunner]

Always remember that things (possessions) can be replaced, people can't. Glad you weren't hurt worse.

Look on the bright side, you now have a golden excuse for any future flinches: "I suddenly thought about the day my rifle blew completely apart."

Robert

[MaryB]

First thing the loadmaster would get would be the upgrades for the priming system and a lot of testing of it to make sure it works right.

[A pause for the COZ]

Your not the first guy to blow up a 45-70 using 2400.
Small loads of fast powder are a known risk in these big cases. It can cause detonation.
Thats were the whole load explodes instead of burning.
Here is a good read about that from MD's pages. There has been some pretty experienced shooters blow 45-70's
http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

Also could have a problem a bullet stuck in to far against the lands causing an over pressure.Who knows? Your really never going to find out unless you run into another over charged round when you take the other ones apart. It is pretty amazing just how much power is released when one of those goes.
I know I am sticking to a slower powder in my 54-70.I will pray for a fast recovery for you.

[betschet50]

sorry to hear that hope you recover fast that's a hard lesson the gun can be replaced but your hand can't. this is a good post to keep us from getting complacent Safety in #1.

[freebullet]

Thank you for sharing your experience. Best wishes for a speedy uneventful recovery.

I had a squib a couple years ago and it made me take a hard look at all my reload processing. We caught it and didn't have any issues, but I made changes to make sure it doesn't happen again.

If you run a progressive get a lock out die.

[gew98]

I stay away from such loadings like this. I had a trapdoor let go almost 30 years ago using 405 gn lead pushed bu Unique. Breechblock took my hat off and got speckled with powder. I'll never know if it was detonation or a double charge. But ever since then...hell no !. You are risking way too much reloading this way when there are plenty of surplus and designed powders for these applications. When I stopped loading for 7mm Rem mag I started using my surplus wc860 for the 45 70. Mild and a little dirty...but fun and SAFE.

[Land Owner]

They are not helped by folks who pat their hands and tell them "now, now you poor soul".

I had always heard the Deep South dispensation for incredulity poised as "bless your heart". Now there are two.



Rule Number One: This hobby can and will bite, injure, maim, and kill.

I made a hand gun squib load on a progressive press, have had primers that failed to seat or go off on first strike, introduced a different powder into a depleted measure - days later (and FIRED the mistake), and once, in another naive way, grossly annealed 300x.223 cases that the first 2 fired cases exhibited exceedingly soft primer pockets - so 48 cases were unloaded and all 300 cases were crushed.

Dodged a bullet or two of my own making? We live. We learn. We reread Rule #1. We move forward.

When faced with one's own death or dismemberment, it is paramount to pay close(r) attention. Were it not for the wit of Mr. Gary Larsen's "FAR SIDE" comics we would not be able to laugh at the "late" Thag Simmons and the Stegosaurus' "Thagomizer". https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=thagomizer+cartoon

[kysunfish]

I'm glad you still have a hand. Take very good care of that so that it does not get infected. Being an extremity does not help matters.

[Gemsbok405]

IMHO a half full case of 2400 in a levergun, and after fired a few rounds, can/will compact the powder behind the base of the bullet. With approx 1/2" or more free air space in front of the primer, the chance of a huge pressure surge ( as with chamber ringing the other way round) is very probable. In the normal course of chamber ringing, have a least 1/4" of steel all around the front of the chamber, but at rear (lever guns have very thin chamber walls), there is way too little steel to hold these extremes of pressure!

[upr45]

Prayers for a speedy recovery. Thanks for the safety reminder!!! A timely reminder, hope everybody that see's this can reinforce safe loading practices.

[Wis. Tom]

Thank you for sharing, heal up well. This, another reminder, to slow down, and watch everything that is happening in the loading process, know matter how long you have been doing it.

[lightman]

Thanks for sharing this, a real eye opening experience! Glad you were no hurt more seriously and hoping for a speedy recovery. If you find out exactly what went wrong, please let us know. Get Well!

[youngmman]

I tried developing a load with 2400 in a 44mag using the Keith 250 grn SWC. I checked pressure signs measuring the case expansion after each shot. Loads that were minimal according to the manuals for that weight bullet were Very excessive so I stopped, so you can never tell how a powder will react in your specific gun/load combination.

I don't use a progressive but do check each case visibly after charging 50 or so for double charges so being anal about this sort of thing has saved me the same experience.

I hope you heal quickly and am sorry for your experience.

[opos]

Wishing the best for a speedy recovery...hope you can just set things aside until you are healed and then get into the "forensics" of the problem..I'd sure break down any remaining rounds. Big cases and powders that are not "case fillers" scare this old man..I'm a "dipper and trickler" and weigh each load and have been lucky to date...but not cocky....get well!!

[davidj]

.I'd sure break down any remaining rounds.

Agreed....The answer may be sitting in one of the unfired cases. Happy the OP still has ALL his fingers.

[9w1911]

OK this week I loaded some 223 for my AR and it was the first time in years I let the 550b go and I did not weight each charge, I was usign 8208 and it does a great job of filling a case , a double is obvious as it will spill powder everywhere. However I had weighed each charge prior to that session. I will still do so.
Also this makes me not want to try gallery loads.
I have about 1000 target ACP loads I made when I first started this and this makes we want to go pull them all!

I am glad you will be ok. Hopefully the gun is faulty and you get a new one.
The flesh always heals faster than the psyche.
Finally, NEVER say NEVER. Bites me everytime.

[jonp]

Thats some scary stuff. When you pull the rounds make sure to report on what you find as blowing up a marlin is quite a feat

We often read about the dangers of reloading, be careful, double check etc but a picture is worth a thousand words and thanks for posting this. Glad your ok

[blackthorn]

Best wishes for a speedy recovery. I too await discovery of the actual cause (if that is even possible). Thanks for sharing!

[oldred]

This is why I like H4895 and Varget for 45/70 loads, a full case with 400 gr bullets and zero chance for an overload. A bit dirty in both instances but really good accuracy and all the recoil I need or want!

[reloader28]

HOLY MOLY, lots a posts I gotta go back and read. Aint been here since the first page.
Just got back from town and everything looks really good. Healing up very nice they said.

I was on pain killers before when I checked the 52gr. I looked at the scale last night and it was on 62gr. I reajusted and checked and with 52gr I actually would be able to seat a bullet. Probly never will know what happened, just glad it wasnt worse.
I might call John Linebaugh (he lives close by) and see if he will take a look at the rifle. I definatly want to keep it to mount on the wall.

Thanks for the thoughts guys, I'm going back to read them when the wife adds the new pictures.

[reloader28]

Forgot to add, while we were in town my brother went and gathered up all the parts scattered around.
Both the round in the barrel AND the last round in the tube went off. Double whammy.

BTW, I reload rifles on a single stage press and trickle in every powder load.
136560

[ohland]

136560

Will the gun recover? Jack up the stock and roll a new action, barrel, and internal parts in there and she's as good as new...
:shock:

[starmac]

At least the marlin performed as designed, as far as blowing away from your vitals.
I think if I was going to make a wall hanger out of it, it would be hanging over the reloading bench.

[pjames32]

Glad you will heal! This kind of photo and story are good for all of us to check and recheck our loading process. Please let us know if you learn more about the cause.
PJ

[altheating]

I think you should start a thread labeled "every new cast Boolit member must read this" and post the pics of what can happen if you aren't careful!

I doubt the the gun was at fault. It could have been a whole lot worse. Your hide will heal, it will take a lot longer for your pride to heal. Glad your healing up.

[shooterg]

Hope you heal fast and find out "fer sure" what caused it. I'm staying with the Dillons but for sure only with powders that can't be double charged w/o spilling over. That's scary !

[reloader28]

Just read everything posted. Thanks for taking it easy on me. Was expecting more abuse.

I reload rifles on an RCBS single stage and trickle powder on a beam scale. It could have been a double charge, I dont know and will never know. The thing is, is that I only loaded those 4 rounds for testing. 2 were in the target, 2 exploded in the gun at the same time. It was several days ago and I dont remember if it was daytime or latenight when I loaded them. I thought I've always checked each case before seating a bullet, maybe not.

It could be a double charge or I wonder about something like what Gemsbok was talking about, packing into a ball behind the boolit. I never thought of that, but I guess its a possibility.

The boolit was NOE 405 RF gas check. Both previous shots were on target so no blocked barrel.

Anyway, today is the wifes birthday and we're making ribs so I better go. She says that me still here is enough present for her. I know I'm very lucky to be only a little sore and cut up and have a story. Could be much worse. Someone was watching out for me. I do need new safety glasses (a week old) as these are now pretty scratched. I think from the for stock splintering in my face.

Thanks for all the thoughts and prayers.

[oldred]

Sometimes one will just never know what happened! I have mentioned this one before, back in 1977 while loading the first loads for my then new 1895 Marlin (still have the old girl!) I had some 300 gr jacketed bullets and a little Lee loader outfit. I also had a scale and a manual so instead of using the dipper I started with the "starting" load listed in the manual, I weighed each load and being nervous at doing something I was learning on my own I double checked the scale to make SURE it was set properly and that these were indeed the right loads called for. Well the first shot just about broke my shoulder! Then when I went to eject the case I had to pound on the lever to get it open, being young and dumb (I'm older now, :razz:) I racked another round into the chamber and cut loose again! Same thing happened but that one brought me to my senses and I just shucked the remaining rounds to pull down later. That night I pulled one of the remaining loads and weighed the charge, this was years ago as I have already mentioned and I don't recall the powder used or the charge weight but I do remember it still checked to be the starting load according to the manual! I to this day don't know what happened and I suppose I never will but I do know that I was very lucky because something was definitely wrong and those rounds were seriously over-pressure!

[Piedmont]

Mike Venturino has written fairly extensively of older rifles and revolvers letting go with light to normal smokeless loads that fill half the case or less. He is convinced there is something to it other than operator error. I recall seeing photos in the gun press of a .45-70 Contender blown to smithereens with 2400 and also a Remington rolling block with the same powder. Several Colt single actions also blown up with faster burning smokeless powders.

[smokeywolf]

When I'm inspecting, priming and charging cases, and when I'm seating boolits, I never forget that my children may be shooting these rounds. Also, at the range, somebody else's children may be at the next bench over.

As I finish a batch of reloads, as a final check, I weigh every completed cartridge, which should reveal a cartridge that got no powder or one that received a double charge.

reloader28, thank you for posting your very unfortunate incident. We are all in need of the occasional sobering and dramatic reminders of the consequences of just a second of inattention at the reloading bench.

smokeywolf

[big bore 99]

Wondering, how true is the detonation of small charges of somewhat fast powders in a large case? I've read both sides of the discussion and don't know what to think.
I have some loaded up with 11 gr of unique under a 340gr and am getting mighty paranoid about now. I always use a marked wooden dowel and check a couple times before seating the boolit. A one in a million chance is still too high for me.

[Char-Gar]

Wondering, how true is the detonation of small charges of somewhat fast powders in a large case? I've read both sides of the discussion and don't know what to think.
I have some loaded up with 11 gr of unique under a 340gr and am getting mighty paranoid about now. I always use a marked wooden dowel and check a couple times before seating the boolit. A one in a million chance is still too high for me.

I don't buy into the small charges of fast powder in large cases causing "detonation". For several generations factor 45 Colt ammo was loaded with 6.5/Bulleye. This detonation thing has come along by folks trying to explain blown up guns caused by an over charge of powder. The advent of the progressive reloader has made this a much bigger problem that it was in the past.

This is quite different from the Secondary Explosive Effect (SEE) which occurs with small charges of very slow powers in large cases. This is quite real and has been known among artillery people for many generations.

[jonp]

I am not a fan of the theory of "detonation" caused by small charges of fast powder in large cases either. Especially considering the damage to a firearm as strong as the Marlin in question

[DCP]

:goodpost:
I don't buy into the small charges of fast powder in large cases causing "detonation". For several generations factor 45 Colt ammo was loaded with 6.5/Bulleye. This detonation thing has come along by folks trying to explain blown up guns caused by an over charge of powder. The advent of the progressive reloader has made this a much bigger problem that it was in the past.

This is quite different from the Secondary Explosive Effect (SEE) which occurs with small charges of very slow powers in large cases. This is quite real and has been known among artillery people for many generations.

:goodpost:

[MtGun44]

The 'detonation' claim has been extensively tested in labs, never reproduced.
My opinion is that it is a red herring, pretty hard to prove a negative.

The easiest thing to do, by a huge margin is double charging a case. With so many old cartridge
designs intended for black powder, and therefore leaving huge excess space with modern faster
smokeless powders it is easy to fit double or even triple charges into a case.

One interesting report I have seen was a guy that blew up two .44-40 revolvers a few weeks
apart with a Dillon, I think it was a 650, and again - from memory - I think it had an auto
boolit feeder. He managed to apparently seat two boolits, and the resulting extremely small
combustion chamber and double weight projectile put pressures well over the limit. I have
verified that it is JUST BARELY possible to seat two 148 gr solid WCs over 2.7 BE in a
.38 Spl. I then tore the test round down.

I have asked a friend at a major powder company if he could have that combo tested for
pressure and he agreed in principle, but we have not pursued it further. I think it would
be the culprit with the blown up .38 Specials.

Well, that sure looks ugly and I am glad you will survive without major impairment. I managed
to do ONE double charge in about 1980, very early in my handloading learning experience with
.45 ACP. Fortunately, the gun and shooter were unharmed other than a mag with the floor plate
blown off and bulged into the frame cutouts, and cracked grips, stung and dirtied hands....... it
could have been much worse. Have learned to be super, super careful, and I SEE each and every
charge in the case in my Dillon 550s, and that is a PITA with the .38 Spl and 3.0 Clays!

Take care, and realize we are all capable of making mistakes - so be hyper vigilant and you may
not make any. I have, knock on wood, not double charged a case since 1980, and work hard
every loading session to keep that record going. All of you - be safe!

[DCP]

I wrote this in 2010 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?86949-Is-it-dangerous&highlight=lyman (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?86949-Is-it-dangerous&highlight=lyman)see post 45

Ok

I just got off the phone with A Lyman technical representative that works in the ballistics lab. (If you want his name PM me)

You can load light loads, gallery or cat sneeze loads? If you load correctly and safely.

He fires light loads, gallery or cat sneeze loads in his lab

The math and science says you can’t do any damage the power is just not there.

He said this is an old (wise tale) that won’t go away and he gets 2 or 3 calls a week on this.
He said some manufactures are still promoting this (wise tale) for some reason.

Using 2 grains of 700x. If double or triple charges a 30-06 you will still be ok because it has a 10-grain starting point.(Use good loading practices never double or triple charge)

Never mix powder.
Never fire a weapon with a bore obstruction
Load correctly and safely


He said good powders for light loads, gallery or cat sneeze loads?


700x
Unique
Green Dot
231
Acc 5

[Lumpy grits]

I would take the rest of that ammo, and weight it.
Bet you also have a squib in that ammo somedangplace.
A double charge will show quite a bit of weight change.
LG

[b money]

Glad your still here to talk about it! This is why I charge each case, look in it with a light and immediately seat a bullet, that way there is less time for me to double charge it because the round never leaves my hand. Granted I don't load 1000's of rounds a year and still do everything with a rockchucker.

[bikerbeans]

Detonation is a French word that translates in English to double charge.

I will not guess what happened, but the Marlin lever gun barrels are thin in the chamber walls, with the 45-70 being very thin between the threads. I have a half dozen marlin LGs and love to shoot them but I don't push them real hard.

BB

[EDK]

I'm glad to hear you're healing up.

I converted a tuned up RUGER VAQUERO 44 magnum from a $1000 gun to $200 worth of spare parts three years ago. (I finally bought the replacement this month.) I don't know what caused it, but it kicked like h***, bent the top strap and took the top off of three chambers. The ammo was loaded on a 550B DILLON, but I was shooting 10K+ rounds a year out of several 44 VAQUEROS with no previous problems. IF I knew what caused it, I would have corrected the problem before the wreck.

My step son managed to have a slam fire or fire my M1A BRUSH RIFLE (70s or 80s vintage) out of battery. He admitted to "riding the operating rod handle" to close the gun; it also had not been fired in a year or more...crud on firing pin? It cracked the stock, wrecked the 20 round magazine, screwed up the rear sight plus receiver, bolt and barrel. SPRINGFIELD ARMORY rebuilt it into a SQUAD SCOUT and re-stocked it for a nominal fee.

I've been shooting 1895 45/70s since the 1970s with no problems. My latest is a GUIDE GUN purchased last December.

[jaydub in wi]

Glad your still here to talk about it! This is why I charge each case, look in it with a light and immediately seat a bullet, that way there is less time for me to double charge it because the round never leaves my hand. Granted I don't load 1000's of rounds a year and still do everything with a rockchucker.
That is exactly how I do it. I know about 50 gr of H4198 will easily fit under a 405 gr boolit.
I hope the OP heals up soon

[Char-Gar]

He said this is an old (wise tale) that won’t go away and he gets 2 or 3 calls a week on this.
He said some manufactures are still promoting this (wise tale)...


He said good powders for light loads, gallery or cat sneeze loads?

I think that is an "old wife's tale", i.e. the ranting and gossip of an old woman without basis in fact, just rumor.

[chicotrout]

Man, I'm just glad to know that you're doing all right and that you got out with all of your fingers and toes; I hope you feel better soon too.

[big bore 99]

Thanks for all the feedback.Every now and then I read on here about detonation and it always makes me nervous loading unique in 45-70's. I hate to give up on it because it's such a fun load out in the back yard.

[BulletFactory]

There are numerous accounts of blown up guns using small amounts of fast burning powders in large capacity cases. That is why kapok, and other assorted fillers are recommended when loading these types of ammo... it keeps the powder close to the primer for more consistent ignition by filling the empty space, and supposedly reduces the possible hazards associated with this practice.

I simply avoid the issue altogether. For my cast boolits loads in larger rifle cases (35 Whelen), I purchased IMR SR4759. It is a bulky powder that produces reduced load results.

I just loaded some .22 Hornet cast boolits using the SR 4759, and it practically filled the case at 10% below max. I cannot wait to try them out.

Anyway... there is much to read about the hazards of reduced loads in large capacity cases. PO Ackley did extensive testing of this, as well as others. It's worth a read.


For safety sake, I'll just ask outright. Should I be using Unique in a .308? I haven't loaded any, the mold hasnt come in yet, but It should be about 170 grains, gaschecked. If I'm rapid firing, I could see the powder doing a snow globe thing inside the case, and if that lights, it's naturally going to burn faster than if it's sitting in a pile. ie benchrest.

[Plate plinker]

Hope you heal fast and find out "fer sure" what caused it. I'm staying with the Dillons but for sure only with powders that can't be double charged w/o spilling over. That's scary !


Thats why i like my dillon with the powder check die installed. :razz:

[badbob454]

i blew up a cheap cobra derringer made in utah it may have a little too hot of a charge for this gun , but good for 9mm pistol , .but really these are cheep junk guns ... since then i load 50 rounds have an adjustable powder measure and weigh every 10 charges , then i use a bright flashlight and shine in all the cases to make sure 1 there is powder in the case , 2 there isnt one that has visually more powder , and 3 use a slow enough powder a double charge would overflow the case i feel confident in my reloads in this way

[varminter66]

I am not a fan of the theory of "detonation" caused by small charges of fast powder in large cases either. Especially considering the damage to a firearm as strong as the Marlin in question

What do the writers of reloading manuals tell us about the burn rate charts? They tell us that ranking on the chart varies, depending upon cartridge, priming, and just about every other variable associated with reloading. Under certain circumstances, could 2400 react as a slower burning powder? Keep in mind, the 45-70 was designed for black powder, which is seriously faster than 2400 by comparison.

PO Ackley claimed that the Ordinance Department, and DuPont Labs, reported observations in their labs of extreme pressure spikes and blow-ups, when using reduced loads of slow burning powders. So this stuff has been reproduced in the lab.

Jack O'Conner referenced reports from Naval Ordinance that claimed, reduced loads in large chambers, coupled with weak ignition caused blow-ups due to weird wave patterns between the base of the projectile, and the breech. I would contend that any powder, under the right conditions, could cause this same phenomenon.

Add to this, the writings of Mike Venturino in the Lyman 4th Edition Cast Bullet Handbook, where he says, "As a general rule of thumb an optimum load for any cartridge is NEVER one in which the powder charge fills only a minor amount of the case volume."

I will conclude there are simply too many reputable gun experts that warn against using reduced loads in a large capacity case.

IMHO, we have many better choices of powders, making it an unnecessary risk.

[texaswoodworker]

For safety sake, I'll just ask outright. Should I be using Unique in a .308? I haven't loaded any, the mold hasnt come in yet, but It should be about 170 grains, gaschecked. If I'm rapid firing, I could see the powder doing a snow globe thing inside the case, and if that lights, it's naturally going to burn faster than if it's sitting in a pile. ie benchrest.

I've used Unique in 7.7 Jap, .303 Brit, 30-06, 8mm Mauser, and 41 Swiss. All of these cases have at least as much case capacity as the .308 Win, and none of them have shown any pressure signs. I obviously don't rapid fire these rounds since they are all bolt actions, so I cannot tell you how they would react to that.

[varminter66]

For safety sake, I'll just ask outright. Should I be using Unique in a .308? I haven't loaded any, the mold hasnt come in yet, but It should be about 170 grains, gaschecked. If I'm rapid firing, I could see the powder doing a snow globe thing inside the case, and if that lights, it's naturally going to burn faster than if it's sitting in a pile. ie benchrest.

Good question. Unique is listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, but so are 9 other powders that may be a better choice. I would recommend starting with the slower burning powders, checking the starting load velocity, and see if any of them are close to the velocity you are seeking. You will need a load that will function the action (semi auto?) smoothly, and Unique may be too fast.

[Skipper]

Check this thread

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/45-70-govt/115527-remlinitis-cure-marlinitis-sad-day-team-members-45-70-a.html

[Gemsbok405]

There have also been recorded 'explosions' of Contender / Encore rifles with similar case / charge relationships...and where the rifle was loaded "barrel down" and not lifted up enough to settle powder in a horizontal basis in case, before firing.

If you imagine the powder and bullet (inertia) being 'fixed' for a tiny fraction of a second in this position, the propellent ignites, and the initial pressure wave can only go towards to breach / case head before the bullets starts to move into the bore and extreme pressure drops.




Just read everything posted. Thanks for taking it easy on me. Was expecting more abuse.

I reload rifles on an RCBS single stage and trickle powder on a beam scale. It could have been a double charge, I dont know and will never know. The thing is, is that I only loaded those 4 rounds for testing. 2 were in the target, 2 exploded in the gun at the same time. It was several days ago and I dont remember if it was daytime or latenight when I loaded them. I thought I've always checked each case before seating a bullet, maybe not.

It could be a double charge or I wonder about something like what Gemsbok was talking about, packing into a ball behind the boolit. I never thought of that, but I guess its a possibility.

The boolit was NOE 405 RF gas check. Both previous shots were on target so no blocked barrel.

Anyway, today is the wifes birthday and we're making ribs so I better go. She says that me still here is enough present for her. I know I'm very lucky to be only a little sore and cut up and have a story. Could be much worse. Someone was watching out for me. I do need new safety glasses (a week old) as these are now pretty scratched. I think from the for stock splintering in my face.

Thanks for all the thoughts and prayers.

[freebullet]

Forgot to add, while we were in town my brother went and gathered up all the parts scattered around.
Both the round in the barrel AND the last round in the tube went off. Double whammy.

BTW, I reload rifles on a single stage press and trickle in every powder load.
136560


For what its worth I think your gun fired out of battery.

[jonp]

What do the writers of reloading manuals tell us about the burn rate charts? They tell us that ranking on the chart varies, depending upon cartridge, priming, and just about every other variable associated with reloading. Under certain circumstances, could 2400 react as a slower burning powder? Keep in mind, the 45-70 was designed for black powder, which is seriously faster than 2400 by comparison.

PO Ackley claimed that the Ordinance Department, and DuPont Labs, reported observations in their labs of extreme pressure spikes and blow-ups, when using reduced loads of slow burning powders. So this stuff has been reproduced in the lab.

Jack O'Conner referenced reports from Naval Ordinance that claimed, reduced loads in large chambers, coupled with weak ignition caused blow-ups due to weird wave patterns between the base of the projectile, and the breech. I would contend that any powder, under the right conditions, could cause this same phenomenon.

Add to this, the writings of Mike Venturino in the Lyman 4th Edition Cast Bullet Handbook, where he says, "As a general rule of thumb an optimum load for any cartridge is NEVER one in which the powder charge fills only a minor amount of the case volume."

I will conclude there are simply too many reputable gun experts that warn against using reduced loads in a large capacity case.

IMHO, we have many better choices of powders, making it an unnecessary risk.

"P.O. Ackley claimed"
"Jack O'Conner referenced reports....that claimed"
"Mike V. said OPTIMUM"

Claims do not rise to the level of actual data. Mike said small charges were seldom optimum. That is a far cry from an imminent hazard. I certainly do not recommend doing it but I have not seen any reproducible experimental data supporting this theory.

[jonp]

For what its worth I think your gun fired out of battery.

What leads you to that?

[jonp]

The 'detonation' claim has been extensively tested in labs, never reproduced.
My opinion is that it is a red herring, pretty hard to prove a negative.

The easiest thing to do, by a huge margin is double charging a case. With so many old cartridge
designs intended for black powder, and therefore leaving huge excess space with modern faster
smokeless powders it is easy to fit double or even triple charges into a case.

One interesting report I have seen was a guy that blew up two .44-40 revolvers a few weeks
apart with a Dillon, I think it was a 650, and again - from memory - I think it had an auto
boolit feeder. He managed to apparently seat two boolits, and the resulting extremely small
combustion chamber and double weight projectile put pressures well over the limit. I have
verified that it is JUST BARELY possible to seat two 148 gr solid WCs over 2.7 BE in a
.38 Spl. I then tore the test round down.

I have asked a friend at a major powder company if he could have that combo tested for
pressure and he agreed in principle, but we have not pursued it further. I think it would
be the culprit with the blown up .38 Specials.

Well, that sure looks ugly and I am glad you will survive without major impairment. I managed
to do ONE double charge in about 1980, very early in my handloading learning experience with
.45 ACP. Fortunately, the gun and shooter were unharmed other than a mag with the floor plate
blown off and bulged into the frame cutouts, and cracked grips, stung and dirtied hands....... it
could have been much worse. Have learned to be super, super careful, and I SEE each and every
charge in the case in my Dillon 550s, and that is a PITA with the .38 Spl and 3.0 Clays!

Take care, and realize we are all capable of making mistakes - so be hyper vigilant and you may
not make any. I have, knock on wood, not double charged a case since 1980, and work hard
every loading session to keep that record going. All of you - be safe!

Why are you bringing truth and reason into an "everybody knows" argument???

[youngmman]

Forgot to add, while we were in town my brother went and gathered up all the parts scattered around.
Both the round in the barrel AND the last round in the tube went off. Double whammy.

BTW, I reload rifles on a single stage press and trickle in every powder load.
136560

I just printed a copy of this photo and intend to hang it above my reloading bench. I'm so sorry for your experience but maybe it will save somebody else something similar.

[kweidner]

We always read these and understand that it is a good reality check for all of us. Truth is you will probably never know. Strange things happen. Glad you are gonna survive. I love gallery loads but as of late have been moving towards making sure I use the correct powder to make it so particularly in rifle stuff. In rifle cartridges it is hard to beat trailboss. I love my .308 suppressed subsonic.....However now that I have blackouts it fills that bill better. I have not fired the .308 since the blackouts and am starting to understand why that is probably a good idea. I like to try for 80% case capacity plus. Matching the powder to it's intended purpose as well as weapon as designed is safer IMHO. Clearly this is not what happened in your case as the thread slightly drifted but it made many of us think. Wish you well on a speedy recovery.

[varminter66]

"P.O. Ackley claimed"
"Jack O'Conner referenced reports....that claimed"
"Mike V. said OPTIMUM"

Claims do not rise to the level of actual data. Mike said small charges were seldom optimum. That is a far cry from an imminent hazard. I certainly do not recommend doing it but I have not seen any reproducible experimental data supporting this theory.

jonp, I wish the Ordinance Department would release their findings, as Jack O'Conner and PO Ackley claimed. After all, it's more than 50 years ago, so I hardly believe it would be an issue. But to say that there is no supporting scientific data is just not true, unless.... PO Ackley and Jack O'Conner are liars.

And I agree, the quote I cited by Mike Venturino does not specifically state that reduced loads are dangerous. It does point to the fact that reduced loads in large capacity cases can behave erratically. That means unpredictable. Now, that alone is reason enough for me. If it's not designed for that application, I hardly see reason to continue.

If I need to add pillow stuffing to my load to make it work, again, why bother? Too many other choices available that have a proven track record of safety.

[reloader28]

Skipper, thanks for that link.
That is exactly what I've been looking for. Thats where this came apart and we've been looking at the threads.
I'm not saying I'm not at fault yet, but this did answer a couple questions.

[1911cherry]

Is this the same thing that causes barrel ringing, just with much more disastrous results? If a low power load or reduced load in a rifle case will ring a barrel couldn't they split a receiver too?

[reloader28]

Been doing some reading, and Skipper, I think this is EXTREMELY helpful. Thank you.
I was ready to admit defeat, but all my friends and family said no way was that a screw up on my part. Maybe not.
That is the same time frame and same guns as mine. And that would explain why BOTH rounds went off like that.

Going to defiantly look into this more. Maybe my load was fine after all.

[35remington]

The problem is that 2400 does not qualify as a "slower" powder prone to blowup with reduced charges.....so that angle needs to be discarded.

Think over the fact that if there's room for a double charge......a double charge may get loaded. There is room for 52/2400 and to seat a bullet atop it. The way the rifle burst suggests the pressure was way overboard and not due to a gun defect, as the pressure was very, very high.

reloader, the sad fact is that when there is a problem with reloads....the reloader as the cause is usually the way to bet.

There is a tendency to want to blame something else and extremely likely causes are not pursued because we somehow believe we are error free. Your "friends and family" cannot comment intelligently on what you did or did not do as they weren't there when the cases are reloaded.

I am not aware of anyone who is error free their entire lifetime.

Skipper's post is not relevant as there is no evidence of a low pressure burst with a standard charge.....your rifle died from a high pressure event.

I suspect the "firing out of battery" post is tongue in cheek, but the Marlin two piece firing pin prevents the gun from firing when the bolt is not engaged.....so out of battery is not relevant either.

[freebullet]

The firing pin isn't the only thing that can make a primer go off. I'm not going to argue about it, I just posted what I THINK happened based on several factors. We will probably never know what really happened.

Since reloads were used it's likely that everyone will automatically blame them and Marlin is likely to do the same. Get well soon and thanks for sharing.

[oldtirediron]

Years ago I worked for a commercial reloader in the Chicagoland suburbs, We never had a blown up pistol or revolver but we did not use Unique for a powder reloading 45 auto, 9mm or 38 special loads. I do know for a fact that Unique was problematic with reloads in a Star machine, and one way to avoid problems with Unique was to shake the powder can before filling the powder hopper, seems to be that some reloader figured out that Unique at the time settled in the container and some loads were lighter with the larger flakes but as you got down to the bottom of the 8 lb can the finer powder became a much hotter powder charge, We did not use Unique for that reason, but used WW 231 which metered better through the powder dropper in the Ammoload machine-- I know for sure that detonation is a real problem and is as elusive to reproduce as a slam fire; but until someone else can prove why for no apparent reason a 38 special shooting light reloads or a 44 magnum blows to pieces; it is detonation of a load with a certain problematic powder such as Unique, or 2400 , or other fine grained powders that detonate instead of burn ! And for just a footnote ,I reloaded several million rounds of 38 special, in wadcutter and SWC, configuration, 45 auto and 9mm and we had different loads for different departments, with no duds or damaged firearms, and no reported squibs, so I know we were doing something right-- Only problems we ever had was with bad brass from another local reloader that used Camdex machines and his sizing die was badly scratched that deeply engraved the case when it was final sized. When these case made it into our sizing die they collapsed down the head and had to be forceably removed-- Seems this other reloaded also used silica sand in a cement mixer to tumble clean his brass before reloading-- He said Walnut shells and corn cob media was "Too expensive!" Well after I was out of the reloading game, his business disappeared in a flash of light and took like 6 people's lives including his own through his lack of safety procedures and arrogance!!

[snuffy]

Forgot to add, while we were in town my brother went and gathered up all the parts scattered around.
Both the round in the barrel AND the last round in the tube went off. Double whammy.

BTW, I reload rifles on a single stage press and trickle in every powder load.
136560


The firing pin isn't the only thing that can make a primer go off.

Oh??¿¿ What else would detonate a properly seated primer? Notice the bolt is still in the locked position, and the lever is all-the-way-up in the closed position. IF it did fired out-of-battery, the bolt would be at least a little bit to the rear, and the lever would be down some.

[dmsbandit]

Sorry for your lose and injury. I hope you'll be ok in the future.

I have a question. I looked at the Lyman #49 manual and NO WHERE is 2400 powder listed for any cast bullet in the 45-70. I load a lot of ammo, an I would NEVER even think of using 2400 under a cast bullet in the 45-70.

Why did you use a powder that is meant for magnum pistol loads and not something more appropriate?

[35remington]

As stated the Marlin cannot fire out of battery.

Explain why light charges of Unique or Bullseye blow guns up?

Easily done. There wasn't a light charge of powder in the case.

For reasons unique to humans we try to develop complex and extremely unlikely causes for simple events. If there's room for too much powder to get in the case......sometimes too much powder can get in the case.

Occam's Razor, again.

dms, 2400 has been listed for the 45-70 in many manuals, including past Lyman editions. Usage in the 45-70 is not a foolish application.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

This doesn't look like an obstruction burst. That takes place where the bullet hits an obstruction, or rather a fraction further along, because it takes time for the gases to catch up and build into an area of very localized high pressure. The barrel tends to burst with a distinctive tulip-like outward flare. But this happened right at the barrel threads, where the metal over the case was thinnest. It looks very much like an overpressure burst, for which it would be hard to argue anything but pilot error.

I think the possibility of a manufacturing fault is slim, but not impossible. They would owe you a lot more than an apology and medical bills if it was that, which is worth investing the cost of a good lens or jeweler's loupe. Look for any inconsistency in the fracture surfaces - an area on the outside or inside, say, which is dulled, suggesting that a crack already existed. Or a part which isn't a fracture at all, but a seam squashed flat and invisible during the barrel forging or rolling process. A metallurgist might suspect overheating and "burning" of the steel, and this is something you probably couldn't detect for yourself. What they do is remove a small fragment of steel adjacent to the fracture, polish it flat, lightly etch it, and photograph it through a microscope. The lattice of carbon would be much coarser and less regular than in good steel.

I'm afraid the double charge (which may have been compressed more than 100%) does seem the most likely. It is easily done. Quite apar from the double charge, 2400 isn't the best powder for a 405gr. .45-70, and there is a lot to be said for one that can't be double charged. One feeble benefit is that if it was your mistake, it doesn't get you cufflinks for every Valentine's Day in life. Your hand looks pretty grim at the moment, but a few months will put it in perspective as minor injuries.

[reloader28]

Sorry for your lose and injury. I hope you'll be ok in the future.

I have a question. I looked at the Lyman #49 manual and NO WHERE is 2400 powder listed for any cast bullet in the 45-70. I load a lot of ammo, an I would NEVER even think of using 2400 under a cast bullet in the 45-70.

Why did you use a powder that is meant for magnum pistol loads and not something more appropriate?


Because its a popular 45-70 powder with casters and load data is in Lyman #3, Lee #2 and my RCBS #1 cast bullet reloading books.

No matter what, theres no doubt that 2 charges went off.
The one in the barrel AND the one in the tube BOTH went off at the same time. Why?? Dont know. Maybe I screwed up, BUT the problems have been reported that go right along with why this happened and it had nothing to do with reloading screw ups. With that being cracked in that spot like they show on the other link, it is very possible to be the cause. I didnt say it was, I said its possible.
Marlin has even replaced guns because of this extreme weak spot. If you have a Remlin from the last couple years, you need to check the gun out. Look at Skippers post and do a little more digging.

One thing is sure, other gunsmiths are going to see this gun now and see whats been turned up on the computer and give me their opinion BEFORE Marlin ever see's this gun. I want honest answers not Marlin answers.

[Plate plinker]

So have you weighed any of the batch? Pulled bullets and weighed yet? Just curious here.

[35remington]

Why did the round in the tube go? Because there was a high pressure burst that probably exceeded 100,000 psi adjacent to it, and that extreme impact served to ignite the powder and likely the primer. Primers and powder respond to sudden and significant impacts and there was a huge one a fraction of an inch away.

Ever see a revolver burst? The rounds in the chambers adjacent often go off as well and the cylinder and top strap take off into orbit. The round in the tube going is not a mystery but rather to be expected.

Take a look a the Marlin's barrel, split like a novelty exploding cigar. It took enormously high pressure to do that and a weak spot combined with normal pressures cannot possibly produce that kind of damage.

The simple truth is all the evidence points to the existence of a very high pressure event and nothing else. Looking elsewhere will be a waste of time, and there really is no evidence to implicate Marlin in any of the pictures.

Very possible a weak spot was the cause? No. Very very unlikely. It was unquestionably an extreme pressure burst that occurred. There's way too much devastation for normal pressure to have been the cause combined with a weak spot.

That conclusion should be let go as it can't hunt. The clues are hollering for your attention.

As was often said by a fellow that made a living investigating blow ups, if a handload was involved, as a cause for said accident that's overwhelmingly the way to bet. There is little evidence for anything else here.

[Griff]

Error in my reading.

[35remington]

Well, no. 2400 was the powder used and 26 grains was the charge. 52 would be the double charge and 52 grains of 2400 certainly wasn't intended. It is quite possible to fit 52 grains 2400 in the case and seat a bullet.

[DCP]

All or most manufacture states that reload Ammo voids there warranty.
I always use factory ammo in a new gun for maybe 50 rounds or so.
Just in case.

[freebullet]

Why did the round in the tube go? Because there was a high pressure burst that probably exceeded 100,000 psi adjacent to it, and that extreme impact served to ignite the powder and likely the primer. Primers and powder respond to sudden and significant impacts and there was a huge one a fraction of an inch away.

Ever see a revolver burst? The rounds in the chambers adjacent often go off as well and the cylinder and top strap take off into orbit. The round in the tube going is not a mystery but rather to be expected.

Take a look a the Marlin's barrel, split like a novelty exploding cigar. It took enormously high pressure to do that and a weak spot combined with normal pressures cannot possibly produce that kind of damage.

The simple truth is all the evidence points to the existence of a very high pressure event and nothing else. Looking elsewhere will be a waste of time, and there really is no evidence to implicate Marlin in any of the pictures.

Very possible a weak spot was the cause? No. Very very unlikely. It was unquestionably an extreme pressure burst that occurred. There's way too much devastation for normal pressure to have been the cause combined with a weak spot.

That conclusion should be let go as it can't hunt. The clues are hollering for your attention.

As was often said by a fellow that made a living investigating blow ups, if a handload was involved, as a cause for said accident that's overwhelmingly the way to bet. There is little evidence for anything else here.

Sounds like you got everything figured about everything. Guess we aren't allowed to think outside your box.

Continuously condescending teaching posts as that are the reason a lot of folks won't share stuff here anymore. Talk to yourself now cause I'm not coming back to this thread.

[35remington]

When clues such as this are present, thinking outside the box isn't a fruitful use of one's time. It is not condescending to point out just what those clues are, simply steering the discussion in the direction any thoughtful examination will inevitably go.

I am sorry such insightful information is offensive, but any accreditable investigation will wind up in the same place.

The OP is free to proceed as he wishes, but the evidence is strongly suggesting very high pressure and nothing else. Not being offensive intentionally, just soberly factual.

I agree I've said enough at this point.

[KAF]

2400 not good in large cases......It detonated.

[Char-Gar]

Just a little more;

1. Having rounds in the magazine of a Marlin 45-70 go off is not unknown. A bullet with a sharp meplat edge can cause it when the primer is a little high, as the nose of the round closest to the lifter is at an angle to the first round full straight in the tube. The meplat edge in contact with the primer. This is why Buffalo Bore has Starline make special cases for their 45-70 loads with small primers. The small primer obviates this problem. When this happens all the rounds in the magazine go off. A very bad scene and one to be avoided.

2. Having rounds go off in the magazine can ruin your day, your hand and arm but won't cause the barrel to peal back. That is caused an over pressure round in the chamber, which can also cause the nearest round in the magazine tube to blow.

3. 2400 is a a fine powder for the 45-70. It does not detonate as asserted in the above post. That is totally false.

4. I suppose Martians could have put a hex on that rifle, but I would bet my unblown Marlin levergun 45-70 against the bit and pieces of the one in question that a laboratory analysis would conclude it was an over pressure round that did the deed, i.e. a reloading problem.

[Teddy (punchie)]

First off I'll Say THANK GOD !!! Your not hurt worse.

Remember KISS (keep it simple stupid).

Double charge, bore blockage, bad gun (weak gun), double ignition theory?? May never know!!

I have not read over every post, so bare with me. Powder charge and double ignition theory, will blow right around locking of bolt, barrel into action area. Bore blockage would blow at weakest point or near blockage.

As for double ignition theory, it is just what it is. Theory goes as in reduced loads, small amount of powder at back and front of case. As primer fires, starts the powder at back of case and over burns the powder in the rest of case, as bullet starts to move rest of powder burns sending waves of stock in all directions. Thus blowing chambers pressure off the max, Ackley used this to blow the 6.5, 7.7 jap's and some of the 98 type actions. They were just too strong to blow and he wanted to see what would fail and where.

Ackley as a longer explanation of thus, in his books. I hunt with two of the most common for this to happen, 300 Ackley and 25-06. I don't recall any straight wall cases in the list, maybe wrong.

Take care Be Safe, God Bless !!!

Teddy

[jcwit]

2400 not good in large cases......It detonated.

To fast a powder to cause detonation. Even if it could happen.

[BrentD]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but has it been suggested or discussed that perhaps a bullet in the magazine set back into the case and then when loaded into the chamber, was seated way too deep in the case, leaving too little room and thus causing a really high pressure spike? I had something like this happen with a 93 marlin in .32-40 and 14 grs of 4227. The result was a jammed receiver. I had to tap the brass out and the primer was super flat. Everything was okay otherwise and the rifle checked out okay afterwards, but if that happened with 26 gr of 2400 couldn't that cause something like this?

[reloader28]

Brent, I have thought of that and its possible, but I'm using a pretty decent crimp and have not seen any problems on the previous loads I'd checked.

For the record, I cant break down any of the loads because these were the only 4 I'd loaded with that. Was still working on a good load.

Thanks for all the opinions and thoughts guys.

[BrentD]

Reloader. Just as a thought - blackpowder won't treat you like that ;)

Get healed up and back in the game. And thanks for posting your accident. Whatever caused it, it will add just a little more caution to my reloading, esp. with that fancy white powder.

Brent

[Plate plinker]

Sorry fella since there are no rounds to pull we will probably never know what caused this kaboomie. Careful in the future and best of luck all around for you.

Btw I overloaded once but it was a wimp load so all I made was a rhino-roller.

[KnotRight]

Better thank someone that you are here to post about your mishap.

[leeggen]

Hummmm wife bought rifle for hubby???? Just funnin. Looks like you got some real cuts and bruces, at least you are here to talk about it and remind all of us how quickly a Kboom can happen. I think if this happen to me I would flinch from here on out. Heal up and get back in the seat, easy for us to say.
CD

[SgtDog0311]

reloader28, I'm glad you had the guts to post this. It was bound to produce a lot of acrimonious discussion. My only advice would be to listen to those who obviously know the topic, and who speak definitively. Bottom line for me is that ‘I’m glad you are ok and healing. I always welcome the caution, eveb if not so much the claims that sometimes follow'.

That load produces 1272fps under a 350gr bullet and 1301fps under a 400gr bullet in my STBL. I shoot a number of powders in that burn rate trying to achieve accuracy at anywhere between 1200 and 1400fps in four 45-70s, 45 Colt, 44-40, 40-63, a couple 38-55s, two more 32-40s, 32-20, 30-30 and some non-hyphenated calibers like 35REM and 32 Spcl. Often the air space exceeds the powder volume in percentages like 47% air vs 43% powder volume. The worst I see is extreme spreads that I attempt to eliminate.

[MtGun44]

I applaud the poster putting this up, but am appalled at a few pretty silly comments.
Perhaps a unicorn damaged the gun or maybe bigfoot detonated the second round in the magazine, but I am
pretty sure that those things didn't happen.

Actually, the physics of smokeless powder burning are very well known and are very consistent. This is
why billions and billions of rounds are safely fired every year. If "detonation" of 2400 were possible as a
"one in a million" scenario, the landscape would be littered with bodies.

The most likely and easiest way to cause this damage is to double charge a case. Unless there is some
proof that this didn't happen, it is not very useful to spend a lot of time on the vanishingly rare other ideas.

I am sorry for the folks that want to find case defects and mysterious, random gun failures in each reloading
accident. Are all these ultra-rare scenarios impossible? No, of course not, but they are very, very, very
unlikely. What is extremely likely is the exact same thing that causes 25,000 deaths per year on our
highways, huge numbers of power tool injuries, and a lot of other misery that happens - HUMAN ERROR.
Looking for lightning strikes and unicorn paw prints is not very helpful for solving the real problem, we
need to look at ourselves in the mirror and remind ourselves to be very vigilant and look for every possible
opportunity to change our processes and procedures reduce or eliminate the chances of human error.

We ARE human, we WILL and DO make mistakes. We need to be working in ways that make mistakes
very difficult not to be detected before an injury can happen.

Good luck and think safety. Reloading can be very safe, but we need to be vigilant and not to trust
that we "just won't make that mistake" - we need processes that are thought out with 'mistake proofing'
in mind.

For example, I have very good lighting and make sure I sit at the right height and location to be able
to see down into each case on my progressive reloader and visually examine the powder level just
before I put the boolit in place. I double charged a case 35 years ago, and have been working very
diligently to not have it happen again. I never have anyone else in the room when I am reloading.
I never listen to the radio or watch TV. I cannot risk the distractions.

Each one of us needs to think of what improvements we can bring to our reloading processes to make
mistakes less likely.

Be safe!

And to the OP - thank you for posting this. You may well save a number of others from making a similar
mistake. Good choice, sorry for your injuries and loss of the gun.

[Gemsbok405]

Ref the double ignition theory, this is more common with a partial ignition as bullet exits case and stops in bore and then full charge burns against a static bullet. With the .45-70's almost non existant leade, very unlikely...

What is futher option is that powder was (horizontal)below the primer flash hole, and the primer flash went over the entire length of powder in case and ignited the entire charge in much shorter time frame. In this case the burn rate would have increased substantially...after all, the propellant is designed to ignite on a progressive basis and reach peak pressure several inches further down the barrel. This would turn the burn rate of 2400 towards something like Unique...




First off I'll Say THANK GOD !!! Your not hurt worse.

Remember KISS (keep it simple stupid).

Double charge, bore blockage, bad gun (weak gun), double ignition theory?? May never know!!

I have not read over every post, so bare with me. Powder charge and double ignition theory, will blow right around locking of bolt, barrel into action area. Bore blockage would blow at weakest point or near blockage.

As for double ignition theory, it is just what it is. Theory goes as in reduced loads, small amount of powder at back and front of case. As primer fires, starts the powder at back of case and over burns the powder in the rest of case, as bullet starts to move rest of powder burns sending waves of stock in all directions. Thus blowing chambers pressure off the max, Ackley used this to blow the 6.5, 7.7 jap's and some of the 98 type actions. They were just too strong to blow and he wanted to see what would fail and where.

Ackley as a longer explanation of thus, in his books. I hunt with two of the most common for this to happen, 300 Ackley and 25-06. I don't recall any straight wall cases in the list, maybe wrong.

Take care Be Safe, God Bless !!!

Teddy

[MtGun44]

No it will not. This does not happen. This sort of thing is done all the time
and it does not happen, it is just something that is thought up and seems
plausible. Again, if it happened, the landscape would be littered with bodies.

Smokeless powders do NOT radically change burning rate like this supposition.

This kind of change causes a few tens to at most a few hundreds of feet per second
change in velocity. Powders that do this are called "position sensitive" and this
has been frequently tested with a chrono. Pressure differences are noticeable but
small, not remotely like "changing 2400 into Unique".

Power burning in a case is a very well understood and consistent process. Otherwise
small arms would be small bombs way too often to be considered safe and to fire
billions and billions of rounds per year without problems.

[Gemsbok405]

Perhaps the term "burning rate" is wrong description. Propellant has a real time burning rate, but if ignite the propellant from opposite ends at the same time, the peak pressure curve will be much greater before the bullet leaves the case.







No it will not. This does not happen. This sort of thing is done all the time
and it does not happen, it is just something that is thought up and seems
plausible. Again, if it happened, the landscape would be littered with bodies.

Smokeless powders do NOT radically change burning rate like this supposition.

This kind of change causes a few tens to at most a few hundreds of feet per second
change in velocity. Powders that do this are called "position sensitive" and this
has been frequently tested with a chrono. Pressure differences are noticeable but
small, not remotely like "changing 2400 into Unique".

Power burning in a case is a very well understood and consistent process. Otherwise
small arms would be small bombs way too often to be considered safe and to fire
billions and billions of rounds per year without problems.

[aap2]

Reloader 28: thanks for posting and thank God that your injuries were not worse than they are (and they are bad enough)..prayers said for your speedy recovery. Your courage in posting pictures will make many of us be a little more careful when we reload. I have accidently double-charged a round once in the pre-internet past with similar results. OK- my 2 cent's worth: I don't know why this blow up occured, but it's likely an overcharge of 2400 (as stated) ...been there and done that myself..kudos to reloader 28 for posting this blow up. I do not wish to disagree with my fellow reloaders about the so-called "detonation" of small charges of fast burning powders but as far as I know this has not been reproduced in lab testing. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. 2400 does not become a "faster" powder like Unique IMHO...but double charges can can be devastating. I remember reading articles about K38's that were blown apart by "detonation" of small charges of Bullseye and varying bullet seating depths..I doubt that this ever happened and as far as I know the "detonation" effect has never been reproduced in lab experiments. Overcharges of Bullseye caused K38's to fail not some mysterious "detonation" effect. I applaud Reloader 28 for posting what must be a painful experience...

[pricedo]

Maybe one of those Remlins with a cracked receiver?
Maybe detonation?
There are several possibilities.

[35remington]

"Flashover detonation" of horizontally aligned powder isn't possible in this scenario. Or in any, quite frankly.

Why? In specific testing, velocities are always lower with the powder strung out along the case than with it bunched up near the primer. Having the powder strung along the case produces less velocity and pressure, not more. If sudden or more simultaneous ignition occurred with powder laying along the case, we'd see higher velocities with powder oriented in this way....yet we don't.

Also, consider a great number of rounds are shot with powder strung along the inside of the case horizontally. Probably the near majority if we include pistol rounds. If sudden, simultaneous ignition were an issue, guns would also be blowing up left and right. They aren't.

The cracked receiver supposition can positively be ruled out due to the nature of the burst. A low pressure burst with said pressure in the normal range wouldn't split the barrel breech in multiple places......remember the barrel passed proof as well.

Finding causes is merely paying attention to the evidence before you.

[BrentD]

I seem to recall that these modern .45-70 Marlins, built on what is essentially a 336 action, are frequently cracked between the receiver's barrel threads and magazine tube. I suppose it could be a factor here.

This disclaimer that "flashover detonation" cannot happen - ever, might be true, but generally with such declarations, some citations, references, etc. to incontrovertible proof is required.

I don't know if it can or can't happen, but I notice that most load references provide a minimum as well as a max, and that minimum is clearly much more than what is required to simply ensure that the bullet squirts safely out the muzzle.

Personally, I'd vote for double charge being most likely, followed by bullet set back in the case, followed by a detonation, but those are just keyboard opinions - like very thing else on this thread.

[pricedo]

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s20/Rhinodon/blowhard.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/Rhinodon/media/blowhard.jpg.html)
Despite the huffing & puffing of the monday morning "experts" on the face of the anecdotal and pictorial evidence presented by the OP nobody knows for sure what happened.
I'm sure the cause(s) could be determined during a comprehensive firearms/ballistics laboratory examination/testing of the exploded gun by the real experts.
Hope the OP follows this up.

[BrentD]

+10! Great cartoon too.

[35remington]

It's not the mystery it's being made out to be. That it was a high pressure event is obvious.

Powder strung horizontally is very very common. Suggesting it causes problems would mean most guns would blow up after being used to any great degree.

That powder gives lower velocity strung horizontally can be verified by anybody with a chronograph. Horizontal orientation gives less sudden ignition of powder and lower velocity. This has been true of rifle and pistol powders in quite extensive testing and I have found zero exceptions to this finding.

The barrel breech split in multiple places positively rules out 'receiver cracks as contributing to the event.

[lobogunleather]

A number of articles contained in the old (and excellent) "Cast Bullets" (Col. E.H. Harrison, NRA publications) make reference to overpressure incidents involving relatively small charges of fast-burning powders in large cartridge cases. The consensus was that such loads can become detonative rather than burning progressively. As others have pointed out, the use of kapok or Dacron fiber fill to keep the powder charge against the primer and reduce/eliminate empty air space was recommended. Also mentioned was the practice of elevating the muzzle before each shot to position the powder to the rear of the case.

Sorry to hear about this and I hope you recover quickly.

[35remington]

Fast powder "detonation" theory has never gained any credible traction that I ever heard of. The NRA actually has been more a questioner of said theory than a proponent.

We're now back to the human tendency to believe oneself infallible and come up with complex, unlikely and unrepeatable causes and make events more mysterious than they deserve to be.

When humans are involved human error is always at the forefront of suspicion.

[Gemsbok405]

If any of us has a spare set of hands, and thinks this theory is BS, repeat the load the shoot the rifle vertically downward...at your own risk! I would not try this in a 100 years.



IMHO a half full case of 2400 in a levergun, and after fired a few rounds, can/will compact the powder behind the base of the bullet. With approx 1/2" or more free air space in front of the primer, the chance of a huge pressure surge (as with chamber ringing the other way round) is very probable. In the normal course of chamber ringing, have a least 1/4" of steel all around the front of the chamber, but at rear (lever guns have very thin chamber walls), there is way too little steel to hold these extremes of pressure!

[captaint]

reloader28 - Thanks very much for posting this for all to examine - and hopefully learn. If I had to pick a cause, I'd go with way too much powder in the case. Glad you didn't get hurt worse than you did. WOW, that looks like it really hurt !!!
I have made mistakes over the many years of reloading. In the late 70's I was loading some low velocity 357's for my new Dan Wesson mod 15. Was throwing light charges of Bullseye, probably less than 3 grains or thereabout.
At the range it was bang, bang, BOOM... The only other shooter (we were indoors) was about 20 feet away. We both stopped and looked at my revolver. I went over it real well and it wasn't damaged. Someone early on in this thread mentioned learning from an experience like this. I am sure I overcharged that 357 case. There's no other explanation. The change I made after that was never using one of those 50 hole blocks for throwing powder charges in the brass. No issues since. Now, I take a primed case, tap it upside down, so I know its empty, throw a powder charge, look in the case for a proper amount of powder, stick a boolit on top and seat it.
I've thought many times about getting a Dillon 550B, but I just can't make myself do it - yet. If I ever start shooting a lot more often, who knows, maybe I'll take the plunge. For now, I'm happy. Heal quickly.

[35remington]

Gemsbok. I've done precisely that with the powder near the bullet with a near identical charge of 2400 in the 45-70. The only thing that happened was the velocity was lower than with powder near the primer. The intent was to investigate the position insensitivity (or lack thereof) of 2400.

I will do it on demand anytime anyone asks. Why it is thought putting the powder further from the primer will guarantee disastrous results is beyond me.

[35remington]

At this point it is now claimed tha stringing the powder horizontally along the case causes blowup problems, and having powder bunched near the bullet causes blowup problems. Is the powder intended to be near the primer and nowhere else? In a practical world, how is this possible?

Since a great many loads only partially fill the case, unless everyone tips the gun up before they shoot the incidence of exploding guns will skyrocket? Doesn't seem to have happened yet. Most shooters I am aware of don't tip the gun before shooting.

[jonp]

Fast powder "detonation" theory has never gained any credible traction that I ever heard of. The NRA actually has been more a questioner of said theory than a proponent.

We're now back to the human tendency to believe oneself infallible and come up with complex, unlikely and unrepeatable causes and make events more mysterious than they deserve to be.

When humans are involved human error is always at the forefront of suspicion.

Even if the detonation/flashover theory were true im not sure 2400 is a "fast" powder. It is a faster rifle powder but is it fast enough for this? I was thinking that referring to fast was more along the lines if a pistol powder like bullseye

[SgtDog0311]

35remington and others, Was gonna post this elsewhere as part of a filler question but I think I'll offer it here as a way to illustrate how unlikely some of this detonation business really seems to me. I said above what I load for and what velocities/accuracy nodes I'm chasing but here is a concrete example: Caliber is 32-40... powders are: IMR-4198, SR-4759, A-2400 and IMR 4227. I'm closing in on the velocity range in this instance so the velocity of all four are close... not exact but close. The point is to show the space volume compared to the powder volume...
Considering air/powder volume:
13.1gr 4198 starts at 54/45% @ 1160fps in favor of air.
11.6gr 4759 starts at 51/49% @ 1230fps in favor of air.
9.3gr 2400 drops to 70/30% @ 1216fps in favor of air.
12gr 4227 starts at 62/38% @ 1230fps in favor of air.
Now, I can't say how many are working around these velocities but they are many. And the powders I've shown are common with many if not most the calibers I listed in a previous email. Many of our guns are old rifles, and dear... so we wouldn't be haphazzard about it.

The volumes being what they are, virtually 100% of those loads listed will be below the primer line when laying horizontal. Somebody said dead bodies everywhere. He's right! This is just one example of one load among hundreds of loads, and that across 10 calibers (even more rifles) and most of them in lever actions. And I'm just one reloader. Seems to me 'detonation' really would amount to dead people everywhere!!

[Gemsbok405]

If reverse the powder position (say 50% by volume) with it tightly packed against the flash hole and sealed over with a wad, and then resulting large airspace between wad and bullet = chamber ring in short order!

The marlin has not got enough metal at breach end to absorb a "chamber ring" instance, hence kaboom in the reverse instance!



Gemsbok. I've done precisely that with the powder near the bullet with a near identical charge of 2400 in the 45-70. The only thing that happened was the velocity was lower than with powder near the primer. The intent was to investigate the position insensitivity (or lack thereof) of 2400.

I will do it on demand anytime anyone asks. Why it is thought putting the powder further from the primer will guarantee disastrous results is beyond me.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Just a little more;

1. Having rounds in the magazine of a Marlin 45-70 go off is not unknown. A bullet with a sharp meplat edge can cause it when the primer is a little high, as the nose of the round closest to the lifter is at an angle to the first round full straight in the tube. The meplat edge in contact with the primer. This is why Buffalo Bore has Starline make special cases for their 45-70 loads with small primers. The small primer obviates this problem. When this happens all the rounds in the magazine go off. A very bad scene and one to be avoided.

2. Having rounds go off in the magazine can ruin your day, your hand and arm but won't cause the barrel to peal back. That is caused an over pressure round in the chamber, which can also cause the nearest round in the magazine tube to blow.

3. 2400 is a a fine powder for the 45-70. It does not detonate as asserted in the above post. That is totally false.

4. I suppose Martians could have put a hex on that rifle, but I would bet my unblown Marlin levergun 45-70 against the bit and pieces of the one in question that a laboratory analysis would conclude it was an over pressure round that did the deed, i.e. a reloading problem.

This is a continuation of a old story. The first reasonably popular lever-action to chamber the .45-70 was the Marlin 1881, with approximately the locking system of the modern .22 rimfire 39a. Winchester, with only a larger version of the 73 action to use in their 76, could handle the powder charge but not with the heavy government bullet, so they introduced the slightly shorter and bottlenecked .45-75, probably to stop people using government ammunition or close copies thereof, rather than a special light-bullet version. Marlin 81s exploded their magazines and were eliminated from military trialswith the round-nose government bullet, so Marlin and others, including Winchester, made the commercial .45-70 cartridge with a small primer to eliminate magazine explosions.

Then Winchester introduced the 1886, which besides being shallower and less expensive than the Marlin 81, had Mason's improved cartridge hook, which enabled them to use a lighter magazine spring and little chance of a magazine explosion. So they restored their .45-70 cartridges to the large primer, which Marlin considered an attack on them, and an acrimonious correspondence, with no perceptible result, ensued.

I agree that simple excessive pressure is almost certainly the cause of this burst, and a double charge of powder is by far the most likely cause for that to happen. It would be a shame to regard the OP as stupid, for it is easily done, and he isn't like the people who think "Maybe it would be better with a bit more powder."

I've seen a takedown Martini fired with a Reloder 7 and 405gr. cast bullet load at about the OP's performance level, without the screw tightened to clamp its split receiver ring. (That, incidentally, is a better powder then 2400, itself not a foolish choice, for this application.) There were no effects except a very slightly changed point of impact. An intact barrel exerts minimal opening force on a receiver ring. In the very unlikely event that there was a receiver ring crack, the explosion still started with overpressure and a burst barrel. The same goes for the ignition of the cartridge in the magazine.

A second bullet driven some distance into the rifling by the explosion of a primer alone, when the powder was omitted, would very likely do it, because that is a bore obstruction of the kind that causes ring-bulges or worse. But the OP would surely have noticed the absence of a report or recoil from the last shot, and the site of the disaster would be recognizable as further forward in the barrel. Besides, the last case and primer would tell its tale. I am not sure that a bullet immediately in front of the expected one, i.e. the equivalent of an 810gr. bullet, would burst a modern barrel, . and it is unlikely to be so obviously violent. In childhood I was told the story of a soldier who, in the torrid and boring conditions of an Indian barracks in summer, decided to commit suicide. As a soldier he was aware that people occasionally survived a rifle bullet in the brain, but he had never learned how harmful to décor muzzle blast at an inch's distance is. To make really sure he filled the barrel with water, but at the last moment he became reconciled with this world, and decided not to do it. His hand, by that time, was trembling so much that he accidentally fired the rifle, and blew off much of his ear.

When he woke up in hospital the godlike figure of the Regimental Sergeant-Major was sitting by his bedside. In some consternation he asked if he was to be dismissed the service, or jailed for the crime (as it then was) of attempted suicide. He was told with utmost politeness (it was a Highland regiment) that he had had a foolish accident which was its own punishment, and he would stay in the army to be put under stoppages for five pounds ten shillings, to pay for the rifle he had destroyed.

His grievance was that there was no visible damage to the rifle, and it is probably quite significant that he retained intact eardrums too. We all know that dangerously high pressures result from using a bullet thirty or forty grains heavier than the one for which the charge was intended. But the would-be suicide’s part-liquid missile would have amounted to around 610gr. for the SMLE and Mk. VII cartridge, and rather more for the earlier Long Lee-Enfield with heavier bullet and more water. This is another thing you wouldn't want to try for yourself, but I think there is a very good chance that an extra bullet jammed up against the intended one would have caused nothing like the damage we see here.

I am in complete agreement with MtGun44 and a few others on this. The cause of the accident was almost certainly overpressure arising from a double charge, and some of the more abstruse interpretations have been made by people who, if they have a similar gun, would go off and blithely fire it after making sure they hadn't double-charged.

In fact even slow powder detonation has never been conclusively identified as such. I think the hot theory among explanations is that an undetectably brief hangfire causes the primer to break up the grains into, in effect, a much faster powder. But among the properties of a powder like 2400, as befits one designed for pistol use, is that by rifle standards it is peculiarly easy to ignite.

It didn't take long to investigate the effect of powder distribution in the combustion chamber. Paul Vieille, who invented smokeless rifle powder, ignited it in elongated sealed chambers, too thick to burst. He found out that when the powder was evenly spread out, it made little difference where it was first ignited. The pressure was about what calculation would suggest, and evenly spread to all points in the tube. It was when the powder was held up against the primer end that strange things started happening. The pressure built up to a far higher level in one part of the tube only at first, a sort of cushion of very highly compressed gases, against the far end of the tube. Gases at that sort of pressure have considerable weight, and he was even able to make the chamber part of an extraordinarily sensitive recording pendulum device, and show that the highly elastic gases bounced back and forth several times. In a firearm in which the projectile is slowed by a bore obstruction, pressure would reach steadily diminishing levels of pressure at breech, projectile, breech, projectile...

My picture is a condemned (but modern steel) single shotgun barrel, in which I inserted an obstruction (a steel nut wrapped in tissue) to produce a double ring-bulge. This is rarely seen in a double gun because the barrels, being thinner, usually burst under such treatment, but the single is heavier built to reduce recoil discomfort. The reason it is double is that while the gases are travelling double the distance to the breech, the projectile has reached a position some ¾in. further along the bore. The gases have travelled at many times the speed of the bullet, and although their weight (formerly powder weight) is a fraction of the bullet's, their energy at MV² is extremely high. Note that I, like M. Vieille in his chambers, did this over a much longer distance than a .45-70 case.

I don't believe there is any danger at all of damage from the load the OP intended, however the powder was distributed along the inch and a half or so available inside the .45-70 case. But if there was, positioning it against the case-head with a filler of negligible intrinsic volume would be far more likely than even distribution to make this happen. Pointing the rifle straight up or down without a filler would just alter the location of this hypothetical pressure wave which I think doesn't do anything. I wonder if anybody, possibly holding a thick trade directory on top of his head like a boatmen of General Hatcher's, has tried chronographing a vertically held rifle? I think it would hold no surprises.

A filler like Dacron or cotton wool has negligible true volume, and negigible ability to conduct heat away from the gases. Kapok has even less, since every fibre is a tiny tube, which is the reason it is so good for lifejackets etc. In the UK I believe this is what comes as neatly measured and oriented quantities in filter tips for rolling cigarettes. I use them to promote consistency of ignition. Anyway I have domed and ruptured a piece of .005in. copper sheet in the cylinder gap of a revolver, with a small pistol primer and no powder. No matter where my powder might have been ignited, I think it started energy delivery behind the bullet, pressed up hard against a thin layer of compressed kapok.

Cream of wheat etc. has more true intrinsic volume, but I would never use it in a sharply bottlenecked case - and never under any circumstances anything harder and more granular, as they can lock into a solid plug. Only momentarily of course, but momentarily is all you've got.

It is true that most manufacturers straight away rule their warranties void if a handload is used. When we see the judgement some people bring to handloading, can we wonder? It doesn't, however, automatically invalidate a product liability suit. The claimant simply has to convince the court, on a balance of probability basis, that he wasn't using the sort of load it was unreasonable to use in a firearm of that type.

136806

[varminter66]

After reading all the posts on this thread, I am very grateful for the people who taught me reloading, and who had books available to me from the likes of Ackley, O'Connor, Keith, Lee, Hornady, etc, so I could read and learn, starting at an impressionable young age. Safe reloading practices were always stressed and honored, and there is no doubt in my mind, it has saved me from injury over the 40+ years of reloading and shooting.

For those who claim that detonation has never occurred in a lab, I strongly suggest reading Ackley's books "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders, Volumes I and II". Ackley felt it was such an important issue that he addressed it in both volumes, although the chapter in Vol I is the most comprehensive where he includes Jack O'Connor's article called "Blow-ups with Slow Burning Powder". This is where findings from the Naval Ordinance's report of Wave Pressure, dated 1959 can be found. Well worth the read.

For those who point to slow burning powders as the exception, I ask you this; other than the amount of deterrent, and the shape of the granules, what is the difference between fast burning, and slow burning powder? The basic ingredients are the same. It is my strong belief that the reason slow burning powders are specified, is that it is much harder to blame a double charge on slow burning powder. That doesn't mean that fast burning powders cannot do the same, but instead, predicts exactly what I have witnessed in this thread.... the shooter/reloader takes another hit, for something they may, or may not have done.

Also, I point to the use of fillers, and in fact, the direction of reloading manuals, to use fillers when loading with fast burning powders in large capacity cases (Lyman Edition 48, 45-70 for use in Winchester and Marlin lever action), to ensure consistent ignition. Anything other than consistent, repeatable ignition and burns, are erratic, as far as I am concerned. I don't like erratic anywhere near my face.

Finally, again, Reloader 28, I wish you a thorough recovery, and the best of luck coming to terms with this accident. I hope you keep reloading and shooting. Learn what ever you believe honestly applies to you from this event, and thank you for starting this thread.

[starmac]

This thread is sceering me, should I list all my guns in the swapping and selling or just the marlins?? lol

[Cap'n Morgan]

No doubt this was an over-pressure incident.

This is what it looks like when the barrel steel is flawed (Sako/Tikka stainless hammer-forged barrels):

http://www.thegunzone.com/rifles-kb.html (http://www.thegunzone.com/rifles-kb.html)

[huntersdog]

Wow, I wish you a quick and speedy recovery. Prayers sent.

[reloader28]

OK guys, update.
A well known gun builder friend stopped by a few minutes ago and took a look.
He has blown up MANY guns with testing and after taking some measurements, he thought it was an overload and probly not a gun weakness.

The way I load test loads and rifle loads would make it basically impossible for a mistaken charge, BUT after looking at the set up that I used when I loaded these, yes it was possible since I loaded these in a different way. BACK TO MY ORIGINAL WAY.

For the record, I never had any intent on sueing anyone for money if that was the thinking here, but if it was the manufactures fault I thought I might get a new gun and doctor bill covered. I dont believe in sueing and think it has done the world more harm than good.

It would be nice to have Marlin look at it and give me an honest opinion after reading about the other weak action problems they've had, but they will think I am out to break them and that is not and never has been my intent. I dont think I would get this gun back if I did send it in and I'm keeping this one for sure. My gunsmith gave me his opinion and thats good enough for me even after talking about the guns weaknesses.

I dont think it was boolit set back as it is a pretty good crimp and I know it was not a barrel blockage. I must have just got sidetracked I guess and screwed up.

There was no intent to cause a ruckus on here, I just thought I would post my incident because thats what everybody does here in this tight knit group. If everyone looks at this, maybe it will keep this from happening to someone else. Pay more attention to details. It can happen anytime.

At this time I dont think it will go any farther. I do want to say thanks for all the opinions and prayers.

[starmac]

Personally I appreciate your post and the pictures, it reminds me and everyone else of what can and does happen, quickly when a mistake is made.
Hope you recover quickly, and like you I would probably keep the remains of the gun, instead of sending it in.

[35remington]

reloader28......the bell can toll for me as well. I am human and prone to mistake.

Once, when reloading on the range I switched disks in my measure with the intention of using another powder.........and I replaced the hopper without ever swapping the original powder out!!!!

Talk about your mind being on something else........

Now, with a new disk and the same powder, the thing that saved me was the powder I had intended to go to but never switched was faster than what I had been using by a little bit, so I fortunately went down in cavity size and thankfully dispensed less of the same powder I had been using before.

The chronograph showed my gaffe by recording much lower velocities than I expected. I slapped myself on the forehead (fortunately my hand was still intact and allowed me to do so) when I realized my error. Luckily I dispensed less powder.

It could have easily gone the other way and the screwup could have made me dispense more had my intended powder been slower. Then it might not have turned out so well.

Let me also comment on the suitability of 2400 for the 45-70. In disassembling some factory loads over the years, I noted that by charge weight the powders used fell likely somewhere between Blue Dot and 4198 in burn speed (in other words, sometimes approximating 2400)......and very much failed to fill the majority of the case. Most of the 405 JSP's chronographed in the 1250 fps range from my 22 inch microgroove Marlin.

When blowups happen, it seems to become more of an exercise in conspiracy theorism than practical examination of the evidence, and the the theories just come out of left field. I mean.....if factory loads in 45-70 fail to fill the case with powder, how credible can "horizontal powder detonation" be? If factories realize the powder can be anywhere in the case, forward, backward, or horizontal, why would they willingly choose to load a blow up prone combination of powder and cartridge?

And they do, according to some postulations.

I'm with jonp here....2400 is considered neither a very fast pistol powder or a slow rifle powder. It's somewhere in between. Toward the somewhat faster end, sure, but 2400 has been used in modest quantities with nowhere near case filling levels for years for cast bullet loads in all sorts of rifles. It is not a problem in such usage.

The ironic thing about the use of fillers is some say never to use them....others say powder MUST be positioned with filler or detonations!!!!! result.

Apparently factories don't agree that powder must be positioned. Not a single round of 38 Special ammo would ever be loaded again, as typical charges come a long ways away from filling the case.

I always wonder.......if an average guy like me can see past some of these blowup theories and refute them with simple common sense observations......how come they get so much traction?

Could it be that being argumentative is too much fun and we'll just hang common sense?

Maybe. After all......look what I'm doing. Arguing. The difference is.....I'm trying to apply common sense observations.

As I see it.......if the theory can't get past simple common sense observation, it isn't much of a theory.

[seaboltm]

This is a good post to keep us on our toes. Got me paranoid. I loaded 500 45 ACP not too long ago, 6.5 grains of Unique, 230 grain FMJ. Load was .3 grains under standard pressure loads according to my Lyman manual. So I got the box down and weighed a random loaded cartridge and tared it to zero. I started weighing bullets. They were pretty much within +/- 3 grains, which, since I ran mixed cases, was no big surprise. Then I found one that was 7 grains over! I was positive it was double charged. I pulled it and found exactly 6.5 grains of Unique. I have a strict procedure when using my progressive: if there is a stoppage, every cartridge is pulled from the carousel, unless a bullet is already seated. Too easy to jigger around and get a double charge. Indeed, using this procedure I have found double charged cases. It happens when there is stoppage. The same case can go back up and get another charge, so I pull everything. If a case is already primed, I set it aside and load it individually at the end. I usually have four or five out of 500. Imagine if I didn't have the procedure to pull everything off the carousel and set it aside after a stoppage! Good post. Be safe, keep your head on a swivel, especially when reloading on a progressive.

[35remington]

seabolt, stick 13 grains of Unique in the 45 ACP case. You'll notice it as it fills it up to the mouth or darn near it. Your choice and amount of powder was actually its own safety measure. Advancing the press shellplate would cause a case double charged with Unique to slop the powder out of the case all over the place.

That you would also see. I load a lot of 45 ACP on a progressive, and an essential thing for my powder choice is that a double charge be easily visible from my viewing angle.....and I look every time before the bullet goes in. The powder must therefore have a certain amount of bulk.

[35remington]

Sgt. Dog, many of my loads approximate yours.....and for that reason "horizontal powder flashover detonation" theory has never smelled right.

[jonp]

This thread is sceering me, should I list all my guns in the swapping and selling or just the marlins?? lol

I'll help you out. Send them to me and I'll watch them until your brave enough to want them back.

[jonp]

This has turned into one of the most interesting threads on this board for me. I've learned a great deal

[starmac]

I'll help you out. Send them to me and I'll watch them until your brave enough to want them back.

Thanks, but I have to go back to work and save enough, shipping will be pretty spendy. lol

[SgtDog0311]

We could prolong the discussion:-)

35remington, I like that you made note of something peaking my interest... "The ironic thing about the use of fillers is some say never to use them....others say powder MUST be positioned with filler or detonations!!!!! result".

That's currently a vital topic to me and of course I've been reading the filler thread. In fact the loads I posted and the volume percentages was to compare that with some of the Dacron advice by you and Larry Gibson and a few others.

I have no reservations about Dacron applied in the right places with the right powders, that is until I get to a couple 125yr old guns. Then I get all squeemish. Still working on that one.

But applied here I found it almost amusing that you got to have that powder stable against the primer yet according to others you're gonna ring your chamber for sure.

And of course someone is gonna chime in and say "just shoot black powder". Oh well, its all good brain exercise and good thing I don't mind gathering a lot of material on the topic or asking advice of people who have been there way longer than me.

[daniel lawecki]

Just glad your ok as I will not post any thoughts on what happened. But you can bet your last dollar I will double check my work.

[Dan Cash]

I have not read all this thread but will say, sorry about your gun and hand. The gun surely looks like 52 grains of 2400. Fast propellant in big cases can sure surprise you.

[Plate plinker]

Ok case closed. nuff said

How is that hand now?

[varminter66]

Reloader 28, I am glad you got that sorted out! I know it would bother me till I had some certainty as to how it happened, and how to keep it from happening again. And, thanks for your honesty.

As to the other posters on this thread, thanks for keeping the discussion as civil as it could be. I don't know that any minds have been changed either way, but there was certainly a great deal of laundry aired both ways.

Be safe, and take care.

Mike

[Land Owner]

Another Good Example of a Bad Example.

Been there. Done that (in another format - fire, not firearm). Have the Tee Shirt.

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/LandOwner/trieditathome.jpg


...at the time, I resembled that remark.


God Speed on your Recovery.

[BNE]

OK guys, update.
A well known gun builder friend stopped by a few minutes ago and took a look.
He has blown up MANY guns with testing and after taking some measurements, he thought it was an overload and probly not a gun weakness.

The way I load test loads and rifle loads would make it basically impossible for a mistaken charge, BUT after looking at the set up that I used when I loaded these, yes it was possible since I loaded these in a different way. BACK TO MY ORIGINAL WAY.

For the record, I never had any intent on sueing anyone for money if that was the thinking here, but if it was the manufactures fault I thought I might get a new gun and doctor bill covered. I dont believe in sueing and think it has done the world more harm than good.

It would be nice to have Marlin look at it and give me an honest opinion after reading about the other weak action problems they've had, but they will think I am out to break them and that is not and never has been my intent. I dont think I would get this gun back if I did send it in and I'm keeping this one for sure. My gunsmith gave me his opinion and thats good enough for me even after talking about the guns weaknesses.

I dont think it was boolit set back as it is a pretty good crimp and I know it was not a barrel blockage. I must have just got sidetracked I guess and screwed up.

There was no intent to cause a ruckus on here, I just thought I would post my incident because thats what everybody does here in this tight knit group. If everyone looks at this, maybe it will keep this from happening to someone else. Pay more attention to details. It can happen anytime.

At this time I dont think it will go any farther. I do want to say thanks for all the opinions and prayers.

Thank you for your honesty. This is a good reminder for all of us. I'm glad you were not hurt more seriously.

May God speed your recovery.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There is no doubt that extremely abnormal pressures can occasionally happen in the kind of chambers Ackley had in mind, and in connection with which he identified slow burning powders for which there is no room for a double charge. What is in doubt is whether it is detonation in the sense that an explosives engineer would use the term.

Firearms propellants burn in obedience to Piobert's Law, i.e. in layers from the outside to nothingness, rather like removing the layers of an onion. If there are no adjusting devices, such as retardant surface or holes which get larger as the outside gets smaller, the supply of gas would be regressive. In true detonation Piobert's law breaks down. Ignition proceeds from its source to the other end of the grain or block, in a wave-front which may be a section of a sphere, just like sound in air or light in the cosmos. This is what happens with a high explosive, in which the propagation of this detonation is typically about 8000 metres per second, far exceeding the burning rate of a propellant. I don't believe a firearm primer can begin this process in a piece of gelignite, which is intended to behave in this way.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

OK guys, update.
A well known gun builder friend stopped by a few minutes ago and took a look.
He has blown up MANY guns with testing and after taking some measurements, he thought it was an overload and probly not a gun weakness.

The way I load test loads and rifle loads would make it basically impossible for a mistaken charge, BUT after looking at the set up that I used when I loaded these, yes it was possible since I loaded these in a different way. BACK TO MY ORIGINAL WAY.

For the record, I never had any intent on sueing anyone for money if that was the thinking here, but if it was the manufactures fault I thought I might get a new gun and doctor bill covered. I dont believe in sueing and think it has done the world more harm than good.

It would be nice to have Marlin look at it and give me an honest opinion after reading about the other weak action problems they've had, but they will think I am out to break them and that is not and never has been my intent. I dont think I would get this gun back if I did send it in and I'm keeping this one for sure. My gunsmith gave me his opinion and thats good enough for me even after talking about the guns weaknesses.

I dont think it was boolit set back as it is a pretty good crimp and I know it was not a barrel blockage. I must have just got sidetracked I guess and screwed up.

There was no intent to cause a ruckus on here, I just thought I would post my incident because thats what everybody does here in this tight knit group. If everyone looks at this, maybe it will keep this from happening to someone else. Pay more attention to details. It can happen anytime.

At this time I dont think it will go any farther. I do want to say thanks for all the opinions and prayers.

That is a very sensible and reasonable attitude. Too many people can't make a mistake without looking for someone else to nail to the wall for it. Marlin are an extremely reputable company, which probably plans to be around in its third century, and I never thought a production defect was likely. But in the very unlikely event that they had slipped up, I think they would be the first to suggest substantial compensation, arbitrated by some independent body, to keep it out of court.

But if a manufacturer had let you be injured for the sake of his bad design or production economy, it would be right and proper to sue, to push him into reforms which would protect others. If everybody was prepared to back off with medical expenses and a new gun (Would you shoot it?) in those circumstances, it would be letting other shooters down.

[varminter66]

There is no doubt that extremely abnormal pressures can occasionally happen in the kind of chambers Ackley had in mind, and in connection with which he identified slow burning powders for which there is no room for a double charge. What is in doubt is whether it is detonation in the sense that an explosives engineer would use the term.

Firearms propellants burn in obedience to Piobert's Law, i.e. in layers from the outside to nothingness, rather like removing the layers of an onion. If there are no adjusting devices, such as retardant surface or holes which get larger as the outside gets smaller, the supply of gas would be regressive. In true detonation Piobert's law breaks down. Ignition proceeds from its source to the other end of the grain or block, in a wave-front which may be a section of a sphere, just like sound in air or light in the cosmos. This is what happens with a high explosive, in which the propagation of this detonation is typically about 8000 metres per second, far exceeding the burning rate of a propellant. I don't believe a firearm primer can begin this process in a piece of gelignite, which is intended to behave in this way.

BIS, according to Ackley's writings, one of the remedies for detonation was to use a magnum primer, instead of a regular primer. The idea was that, a magnum primer has a flash of longer duration, thus ensuring a more complete ignition of the small charge. I still believe the articles are worth a read. While a very rare phenomenon, there has been documentation, and remedies, surrounding it. I will take Ackley's word for it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If you tried to cure failure to detonate gelignite with a firearms primer, the remedy would be to use a blasting cap. While I am sure he was right about unpredictable drastic overpressures, and about a magnum primer being the way to avoid it, I think the explanation is the use of the word "detonation" for something better described in some other way.

[Char-Gar]

BIS, according to Ackley's writings, one of the remedies for detonation was to use a magnum primer, instead of a regular primer. The idea was that, a magnum primer has a flash of longer duration, thus ensuring a more complete ignition of the small charge. I still believe the articles are worth a read. While a very rare phenomenon, there has been documentation, and remedies, surrounding it. I will take Ackley's word for it.

I first started reading Ackley's and Nonte's material on SEE after I had some funky pressures trying to load down my 300 Weatherby by reducing the charge of 4350. I quickly made the change to 4895 and all the problems went away. I was lucky not to destroy myself and the rifle. This was 1960.

This is well documented and like you I take Ackley's and others word for it.

BTW...I understand that as just a few days ago, Marlin is not longer in business.

[starmac]

Curious, where did you here marlin was no longer in business???

[M-Tecs]

Since Char-Gar's posts I have been searching the web. I am not finding anything.

[jmort]

Would not be a surprise. Cerberus smoked H&R, why not Marlin. But I see no evidence right now.

[shastaboat]

OK, from the horse's mouth: Tom Griffin, Lyman just called me and said the following. Lyman is now recommending bulkier powders in cast rifle bullet shooting to eliminate the potential (need) or thoughts that a filler of any kind be needed. He said Lyman never had any negative reports of "detonation" for 2400 powder. He suspects that the blowup in question was caused by a double charge. Lyman #47 was the last manual that they recommended 2400 in the 45-70 but it had nothing to do with Lyman thinking the powder was unsafe to use in 45-70 with appropriate loads. It was only because they started recommending bulkier powders that would not need a filler of any kind.
[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[dragon813gt]

Since Char-Gar's posts I have been searching the web. I am not finding anything.

They've spent millions getting tooled up to produce Marlin levers since the existing equipment was worn out. I'm not saying it can't happen. But I find it highly unlikely they would kill the brand. This can't be compared to H&R.

Seems it's the same old tired rumor: http://www.truthorfiction.com/cerberus-soros/

[starmac]

Pretty much my thinking, but I've seen stranger things done.
I would hate to see Marlin go under, not that I forsee ever buying a new one, but I hate to see any U.S. manufacturer close.

[jcwit]

Buds still have them for sale, so if they went out it was yesterday.

[starmac]

LOL Wallmart still had them probably a year after they were no longer being produced when remington shut them down for a while. Buds probably buys them by the train load, so that would not be much of an indicator.

[HangFireW8]

Reloader28, thank you for posting and I pray you heal quickly.

Could you post closeups of the chambered brass from all angles please?

[jcwit]

LOL Wallmart still had them probably a year after they were no longer being produced when remington shut them down for a while. Buds probably buys them by the train load, so that would not be much of an indicator.

Well I got a better indicator. They do answer their telephone!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

OK, from the horse's mouth: Tom Griffin, Lyman just called me and said the following. Lyman is now recommending bulkier powders in cast rifle bullet shooting to eliminate the potential (need) or thoughts that a filler of any kind be needed. He said Lyman never had any negative reports of "detonation" for 2400 powder. He suspects that the blowup in question was caused by a double charge. Lyman #47 was the last manual that they recommended 2400 in the 45-70 but it had nothing to do with Lyman thinking the powder was unsafe to use in 45-70 with appropriate loads. It was only because they started recommending bulkier powders that would not need a filler of any kind.
[/COLOR][/SIZE]

That is about what I would have expected. I agree that a bulkier powder is better for this application, for consistency of ignition as well as avoiding the risk of a double charge. But although I am convinced that Ackley correctly attributed something to various combinations of very slow powders, partly filled cases and non-magnum primers, I don't believe there is any record of such things happening with 2400. It might even be the best propellant for some of the very short barreled survival or trapper guns that have been made at times.

I also agree that a partially filled case of 4350 would have been a bad thing to persist with. I wouldn't have done it with the Reloder 22 I used in my .300H&H either. Rifles being the contrary beasts they are, I got just as good 200 yard accuracy, 1⅛in. centre to centre, with the same charge I bad used with 190gr. MatchKings, but propelling Speen 125gr. spire points at about 3500ft./sec.

[PULSARNC]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?175582-S-e-e-Big-kaboom&p=1965167#post1965167 Some may remember my post some time back about my gun blowup .Glad you were ok Still do not know if it was a SEE or a double charge .Been over two years and I haave yet to revisit reduced loads .Maybe one day I will retackle he issue

[oldred]

First off let me say it's an extremely good thing the OP is here and able to tell us about this! Now I would like to put my 2 cents on the "powder strung out in the case" scenario. The line of thinking (for some anyway) seems to be that powder lying flat in the case strung out from the primer to the bullet base will ignite a much larger volume of the powder much sooner vs powder resting in bulk against the primer but is that actually what happens? This assumes that the flash will travel over, but in close proximity, to the powder string lying in the case which is very likely to be true. Now the assumption seems to be that if the powder is in bulk against the primer it will ignite a smaller surface area near the primer and the flame will progress toward the front of the powder column resulting in a slower burn vs igniting a powder string lying in the case bottom BUT think about this. When the powder in bulk against the primer is exposed to the primer ignition it is of course not like it has been lit with a fuse but rather exposed to a fairly violent explosive force from the primer. This force is going to send the flame through the powder, not just igniting the rear surface area, and will quite likely even cause the empty space in the case to become filled with some loose as yet unburned grains as the powder charge is blown forward by the force of the primer. So it would seem to me that powder in bulk against the primer could easily be ignited at the same rate, or maybe even faster given a hotter primer, than powder lying flat at the bottom of the case? In actuality it probably makes little difference either way but when you consider what actually happens to bulk powder against a primer then the theory that the powder string will ignite much faster no longer seems as likely. It does not simply light at the back and travel forward evenly but rather has the ignition flame blown through the bulk charge very likely igniting the powder at the same, or nearly so, rate as if the primer flame was traveling across a powder string.

Just my thoughts and ramblings and maybe too much coffee but maybe it is something to at least consider.

[Col4570]

A bullet can be sent into the Barrel by the Primer, followed by the Powder Charge all in a fraction of a second.Usualy due to the ignition skipping over A small charge of Powder which on ignition is within a large dangerous air space and the bullet acts as a restriction.

[DougGuy]

You know what... Thread like this can help in unseen ways. You never know how close you came to a prevented accident. You rarely get to learn from a near miss but sometimes things happen and you are able to view an aborted or derailed chain of events and you can pinpoint where something YOU did, caused something bad not to happen.

This thread will cause most of us to at least THINK about how we go about the process of assembling ammo, will cause us to look closer at how our "flow" goes and maybe spot a point where something could go wrong, and abruptly set into the works, a way to prevent it. A failsafe if you will.

If we can, let's hear some helpful suggestions from those who read and posted in this thread, on how we all can make sure we don't get into an unfortunate situation.

Here would be some of mine:

Add LED lights to the press or to the powder dropping area. Maybe even a small mirror if there is room for it.

Automatically pull and dump 2 cases anytime the rhythm of the loading cycle gets interrupted. (I do this for .45 ACP as I don't weigh each of these).

Weigh each charge on a digital scale by putting a primed case on the scale and zeroing, then drop powder and re-weigh, adjust until the final .10 grain is reached. (I load this way in .44 Magnum and .45 Colt).

Hand prime, off the press, checking each primer for below flush seating.

[oldred]

A bullet can be sent into the Barrel by the Primer, followed by the Powder Charge all in a fraction of a second.Usualy due to the ignition skipping over A small charge of Powder which on ignition is within a large dangerous air space and the bullet acts as a restriction.

Yes I can agree with that, however the scenario I am attempting to address is when a commonly accepted and listed charge of any given powder is used. I was merely attempting to point out that in the case of a light charge of bulk powder being located against the primer it does not merely ignite at the rear and progress forward in an even fashion but rather it has the primer flame blown trough the charge. This would of course ignite a lot more of the powder instantaneously that just simply lighting the charge over the rear surface area. I can even envision (purely speculation here however!) the light charge in bulk against the primer even being blown into a "cloud" in the empty space exposing more of the individual grains to ignition?????

[M-Tecs]

A bullet can be sent into the Barrel by the Primer, followed by the Powder Charge all in a fraction of a second.Usualy due to the ignition skipping over A small charge of Powder which on ignition is within a large dangerous air space and the bullet acts as a restriction.

What is a "large dangerous air space"? As the volume of the space increases the pressure will go down with equal charge weights. I can understand a lodged bullet acting as a restriction but, other than blackpowder, I don't agree with the "large dangerous air space".

[Smoke4320]

If Powder forward in case and airspace caused a detonation issue there would be many deaths each year from tree stand hunters
So far I have not heard of a single incident of a tree stand hunters gun blowing up from such

[oldred]

If you think about it firing a gun pointed downward such as from a tree stand might even result in the lowest pressure spike, I say "might" because again it is purely speculation for me. I think it would result in the lowest volume of the powder being exposed to the primer flash, a long string of powder lying spread out in the case would have a large surface area exposed to the flash while the bulk powder against the primer would have the flash forced through it and possibly even have the powder dispersed into the open space during the flash event! Powder lying against the bullet base and farther from the primer would have the least disturbance from the ignition flash and thus the lowest total exposed area. Just thinking out loud here and in no way am I trying to insist this is fact but it is something to consider.

[MtGun44]

I drop a square of cardboard (back of half a primer sleeve ) folded 90 deg into the powder measure of D550s, with the powder, chg wt and date checked. Periodically recheck and change date because I leave powder in them. For regular measures, I use a yellow china marker to write powder and qty on the reservoir.

Always pull and tear down any associated rounds when things happen where I "lose my place" when loading on Dillons.

[reloader28]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?175582-S-e-e-Big-kaboom&p=1965167#post1965167 Some may remember my post some time back about my gun blowup .Glad you were ok Still do not know if it was a SEE or a double charge .Been over two years and I haave yet to revisit reduced loads .Maybe one day I will retackle he issue


Looks nasty. Glad your OK. Too bad about the gun.

[reloader28]

Reloader28, thank you for posting and I pray you heal quickly.

Could you post closeups of the chambered brass from all angles please?


I assume your talking about the round that was in the barrel? I'll try and do that tomorrow.

[Gemsbok405]

This thread is certainly growing legs.

What if the primer ignition caused a minute "hangfire", in that initial blast jammed the bullet into the throat, the powder then fully caught and without bullet jump, the pressure went extreme...

One would also expect the primer blast to seperate / loosen the powder grains, and prevent a compressed charge at front of case sending a pressure pulse backwards (shaped charge) towards the case head / breach, and said kaboom! Reason while treestand hunters are not suffering same fate...

A weak primer impulse combined with powder at boolet end of case, may not have seperated / loosened the the "powder cake"...

But if charge was normal, and after 2 normal shots, the inertia compression of charge in 3rd "kaboom" shot may have been very compressed at bullet end, and combination of all of above factors caused an extreme pressure / SEE situation?

[HangFireW8]

I assume your talking about the round that was in the barrel? I'll try and do that tomorrow.

Yes, thanks

[Virginia John]

Glad you are OK. Even though it sounds a lot like an over charge, have some one (a very qualified someone) look over your gun and render an expert opinion. If it enough to say it was the gun, Mr Marlin owes you. If it was a double charge, change your loading procedure to eliminate the possibility of a repeat performance. Like some of the folks above, I weigh every round. It takes longer but you have a lesser chance of an over charge. There are no guarantees in life. Thank God you survived this one.

[TXGunNut]

Like many I'm convinced the evidence we've seen here is of an overpressure event. I've loaded a double charge of 2400 in a 30-30 and the result was not very dramatic as it was a wimp load to begin with. I'd prefer not to load with a powder that doesn't fill at least 50% of the case but I like this load. Nowadays I weigh all finished rounds just to be sure.
I think many blown up guns are the result of two or more factors so I'd encourage an examination by a metallurgist just to be sure. I've seen one blown up gun and read about many more that could not be explained by one factor alone. I think that's why so many millions of rounds are fired each year without incident, even when some undoubtedly had safety issues.
My only conclusion after reading many accounts of blown up guns and examining a few over the years is that sometimes guns blow up and we never know why. Metal fatigue and hidden flaws are difficult for the layman to prove but without a doubt many blow-ups are not the fault of overpressure ammo.
I've fired hundreds of thousands of 38 target rounds from a revolver drawn from a holster so I've never given much credibility to the flashover or detonation theories but those theories generally center on slow powders. I don't think flashover or detonation is a likely scenario here.

[MtGun44]

More unicorns spotted, I see.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

What is a "large dangerous air space"? As the volume of the space increases the pressure will go down with equal charge weights. I can understand a lodged bullet acting as a restriction but, other than blackpowder, I don't agree with the "large dangerous air space".

It is a space over (or below) some very slow powder. As Lyman have said, the chances of this happening with a low charge of 2400 are remote in the extreme. In Post 183 on this thread I outlined Paul Vieille's experiments, showing what maybe the most likely explanation for extremely high pressure waves in a part-filled long cartridge case. They were much longer than any current smallarms case,but this could be a profitable avenue of exploration for anyone willing to make cases with four or five inches of narrow powder space, by lathe turning or from tubing. If it can be firmly linked to those cases, the possibility of its being occasionally linked to 2½ inches of powder space becomes extremely convincing.

The other possibility, perhaps a necessary adjunct to produce this effect, would be the breaking up of powder grains by the force of the primer. It becomes a faster powder, due to the higher ratio of surface area to volume, and some of those surfaces being without retardant coating.

One snag in this theory is that standard primers seem more likely to do it than magnum ones. The other is that although investigation with a primer and inert but equally brittle plastic granules might seem simple, what is equally brittle? Pitch will shatter under impact but bend under pressure, and water is a solid when you hit it from the terminal velocity of a human fall from a height. But I know one case (good enough to stop the Germans shooting him as a spy) of a pilot falling 26,000 feet onto snow-covered pine trees and deep snow beneath. It would take some pretty abstruse science to determine what is as brittle as smokeless powder, under the extremely brief impact of the high explosive primer.

[BulletFactory]

How many pushing these ideas have instrumented and tested smokeless powder burns with high speed transducers and an o'scope? In a laboratory setting? Done controlled experiments with these resources to investigate ignition characteristics of primers with smokeless powders as a gas generator? I have, and learned from someone who worked an entire career at Hercules and Picatinny arsenal. He also happened to be called on as an expert witness, and could clearly examine and explain the facts.

.

I dont think people are pushing the idea so to speak, I wasnt. But I was concerned, after looking at this mans hand, who would blame anyone? I posted a concern because I was about to put Unique in a .308, and upon picturing the powder in the case being lit and knowing how "dust" usually ignites, I became concerned. Further along that thought pattern, I had imagined the powder in the case again in a bump fire situation. Would it atomize? If it does, will it act like airborne sawdust, or coffee creamer? I then thought no, the powder would actually be up against the back of the bullet at the time the primer went off. Otherwise you'd be looking at a slam fire, as a properly functioning action will place the bullet in the chamber, and then release the hammer, and then the powder ignites. This would give the powder just enough time to back up against the bullet before ignition. (the straight down scenario)

One thing I do know, I'm coming on here, and I'm going to ask before I go doing anything that might get myself or someone else hurt.


As has been pointed out, most pistol rounds are going to have a good bit of airspace, and rapid fire is very very common in handguns.


This has turned into one of the most interesting threads on this board for me. I've learned a great deal

Yup.

[william iorg]

Sorry for your lose and injury. I hope you'll be ok in the future.

I have a question. I looked at the Lyman #49 manual and NO WHERE is 2400 powder listed for any cast bullet in the 45-70. I load a lot of ammo, an I would NEVER even think of using 2400 under a cast bullet in the 45-70.

Why did you use a powder that is meant for magnum pistol loads and not something more appropriate?


DMS, Good morning.
Lyman No. 39 page 78.
Lyman No. 43 page 129.

There are others but these two are handy.
We have loaded 2400 in the .45-70 from the mid 1960's when I bought my first Trapdoor.

[M-Tecs]

I posted a concern because I was about to put Unique in a .308, and upon picturing the powder in the case being lit and knowing how "dust" usually ignites, I became concerned. Further along that thought pattern, I had imagined the powder in the case again in a bump fire situation. Would it atomize? If it does, will it act like airborne sawdust, or coffee creamer?

10 grains of Unique under a 385 grain cast is my favorite 45/70 plinking load. As a kid I loaded for a reenactment group. I know I have loaded 50K of this load with anything unusual. The 10 grain Unique load is considered a universal cast boolit load. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?39923-10-Grs-Unique-The-Universal-Cast-Boolit-Rifle-Load

[varminter66]

Thanks everyone for their posts on this thread, especially the OP!

I have taken the liberty to post the scanned pages from PO Ackley's "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders, Volume I"; Chapter entitled Reduced Loads. This should provide plenty of additional discussion on the subject! It also includes the article from Jack O'Connor that I had referred to earlier in this thread.


137315137316137317
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137319
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[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ackley very correctly identifies what can happen occasionally, and frequently reiterates the link to very slow powders and non-magnum primers. But he admits never having reproduced the effect, and that his suggestions on the explanation (or explanations) are conjectural. If the readers observed his warnings about the combination of partial charges with the powder and primers, that wouldn't much matter. Some of the examples he quotes, such as a 29% load of machine-gun powder in a Remington Rolling Block rifle chambered for the extraordinary .244H&H, are not just extreme, but extremely extreme. It is interesting that he quotes the destructive effect which the shooter at first thought could be a double charge, when double the actual charge had been fired without ill effects. It is from Jack O'Connor, who wasn't a ballistics experimenter on anything like Ackley's level, that we hear agreement on the powders, primers and reduced charges, but conjecture on a mass of gas being created and igniting. The bore of a rifle is an oxygen-starved environment, and that unicorn has spots on it, all right.

While right on the effect and how to avoid it, Ackley gives no indication whatever of using the term "detonation" in the sense explosives engineers would do, and gives plenty of evidence of thinking other explanations likely. It might have been better to use some other term. He also says nothing at all to suggest that the effect could be responsible for the OP's accident.

[BrentD]

a few pages back someone suggested the possibility of multiple causes. I certainly think that is a good thing to consider. Whether cartridges detonate or not, and whether there was a double charge or a setback bullet, could there have been something else? Given the reputation of this rifle in recent years, I would, for sure, check that web between the barrel threads and the mag tube.

What sort of pressure would 1 double charge of 2400 produce?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I doubt if it would be anywhere near the pressure this rifle routinely stands. What is more to the point, perhaps, what would happen with a similar bullet and charge in the .454 Casull case? If the answer is not very much, it would be a situation similar to pretty drastic telescoping of the bullet into the .45-70 case.

[35remington]

Given the chamber itself is ruptured over the chamber, the reason why some think the barrel threads are suspect in this event doesn't make much sense. That idea is nonsensical given the physical evidence. The fact that this has needed to be repeatedly pointed out seems to affirm that it's very common to put forth conjecture without bothering to verify anything at all about the event first.

The pressures of such a load would be way beyond proof.

[BrentD]

Given the chamber itself is ruptured over the chamber, the reason why some think the barrel threads are suspect in this event doesn't make much sense. That idea is nonsensical given the physical evidence. The fact that this has needed to be repeatedly pointed out seems to affirm that it's very common to put forth conjecture without bothering to verify anything at all about the event first.

The tone of your post is a little hostile as far as I'm concerned. I don't know why.

The photos- such that they are, not very good - clearly show that the receiver is broken between the barrel threads and the passage for the magazine tube, i.e., exactly the area that many Marlin rifles are reported to be cracked with just a handful of mild loads firing through them. That weakness jeopardizes the strength of the entire action to hold anything beyond the hoop strength of the barrel itself, which is also relatively thin there, and it might not take much of anything beyond proof loads to bust that out the rest of the way.

It is interesting to look at the photos and try to understand what happened, but it is an anathema to me why some people get so overbearingly hostile at anyone's opinion that differs even in the smallest way from their own.

[5.7 MAN]

Sorry about the event, heal quickly!
What's the proof load for a marlin 45-70? Isn't year a a computer program that can predict what the pressure of a double charge of 2400 would be?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The tone of your post is a little hostile as far as I'm concerned. I don't know why.

The photos- such that they are, not very good - clearly show that the receiver is broken between the barrel threads and the passage for the magazine tube, i.e., exactly the area that many Marlin rifles are reported to be cracked with just a handful of mild loads firing through them. That weakness jeopardizes the strength of the entire action to hold anything beyond the hoop strength of the barrel itself, which is also relatively thin there, and it might not take much of anything beyond proof loads to bust that out the rest of the way.

It is interesting to look at the photos and try to understand what happened, but it is an anathema to me why some people get so overbearingly hostile at anyone's opinion that differs even in the smallest way from their own.

That would probably be revealed by what I advised at an early stage in this discussion, i.e. to see whether any of the fractured areas were discoloured so as to show they had been discoloured for some time before the explosion.

Even a tightly threaded-in barrel is capable of slight expansion within the receiver threads. That is why very tight barrel threading, which benchresters don't use, is important in military rifles, which may be fired until the barrel is very hot indeed. It is not permissible to rely on the threads to prevent bursting of a barrel in the chamber area. The OP's receiver failed because the OP's barrel failed, and failed in a way which suggests simple overpressure.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Given the chamber itself is ruptured over the chamber, the reason why some think the barrel threads are suspect in this event doesn't make much sense. That idea is nonsensical given the physical evidence. The fact that this has needed to be repeatedly pointed out seems to affirm that it's very common to put forth conjecture without bothering to verify anything at all about the event first.

The pressures of such a load would be way beyond proof.

I don't believe anybody has suggested the threads cut in the barrel were responsible. What has been suggested is that there was a crack in the receiver ring threads, probably between barrel and magazine, was to blame. I think this is wrong, since the barrel to receiver joint is very unlikely to give support to the barrel, and even if the odd one could do so, there is certainly no way designers could assume this as normal.

The barrel failed because the barrel failed. The texture and any aging of the fractured surfaces in the receiver might show whether there was a preexisting crack there. But I doubt if it would make and significant differenced to what happened. A failing barrel might or mightn't have taken an intact receiver ring with it. But it would have failed where the OP's hand was.

[reloader28]

The area that is cracked on some guns is paper thin or sharper on this gun, this is why I originally thought it might be the gun and not my fault.
I've looked at it with a magnifying glass and it looks to me like it could, maybe be a gun failure. My gun builder friend thought it could be an over pressured round, but it would be better for an expert to look at it.

I've figured the pressure, and if it was a double charge it would have been over 112,000 pressure. That is a guess since I didnt actually have the chrono out.

I will make it a point to get close up pic's tonight. I was busy this weekend turkey hunting with the daughter.

[Char-Gar]

In case it needs to be said again Ackley and others are making reference to the SECONDARY EXPLOSIVE EFFECT (SEE) that can occur when a small charge of slow powder is used in large capacity rifle cases. This effect is well known among artillerymen for generations. There has been a debate for generations whether this is a real concern for the rifle reloaders. I think it can be and wisdom dictates the use of a faster powder when trying to load down large capacity rifle cases.

However in the gun blow up in question, this was not an issue. There has been in recent years a spate of revolver blowup in large capacity cases (45 Colt) with the use of fast burning powders like Bullseye and others. A gun writer or two has labeled these "detonation", but with a high degree of probability were the result of a multiple charge due to the progressive reloading machines so popular these days.

We need to keep these two issues separate and not conflate them.

[waksupi]

In case it needs to be said again Ackley and others are making reference to the SECONDARY EXPLOSIVE EFFECT (SEE) that can occur when a small charge of slow powder is used in large capacity rifle cases. This effect is well known among artillerymen for generations. There has been a debate for generations whether this is a real concern for the rifle reloaders. I think it can be and wisdom dictates the use of a faster powder when trying to load down large capacity rifle cases.

However in the gun blow up in question, this was not an issue. There has been in recent years a spate of revolver blowup in large capacity cases (45 Colt) with the use of fast burning powders like Bullseye and others. A gun writer or two has labeled these "detonation", but with a high degree of probability were the result of a multiple charge due to the progressive reloading machines so popular these days.

We need to keep these two issues separate and not conflate them.

And that is why you will never see a progressive loader on my bench.