Black Powder Measure Volume inconsistanies

[w30wcf]

Black Powder Measure Grains Volume Inconsistencies

Not all Black Powder Measures have been created equal. That is, when set at the same grain volume, they all don’t hold the same amount of powder.

However, for us that weigh our black powder charges, that matters not.

But for historical purposes…..
I first became aware of thedifferences in measure volumes 35 or so years ago when I purchased a B&M powdermeasure. Up to that time, I had been using a TC (Thompson Center) hand measure. I was preloading some powder vials for my muzzle loader and decided to use my then new B&M measure. Consulting the chart that came with it, I setthe measure to dispense 90 grs. of black powder. I was using Goex and to my surprise, the actual weight dispensed was closer to 80 grs. by weight!

Hmmmm. I checked my TC measure at the 90 grain setting using Goex and it did indeed hold 90 grs. by weight. After scratching my head a bit, I reset the B&M measure to dispense the same 90 grs. by weight. The actual setting according the chart that came with the measure, was closer to 100 grs. Obviously, the actual volume between the two measures was different.

Cartridge reloading -
Fast forward 20 years when I became interested in black powder cartridge reloading, specifically the .44-40 & .45 Colt. Around that time I also purchased an older Lyman 55 measure. I found that at the “40” grain setting it actually dispensed 36 grs. by weight of Goex. My B&M measure did the same thing. It became apparent that these two measures had not been regulated with Goex powder.

Reason found -
The Lyman (Previously IDEAL) dates back to the late 1800’s and was regulated with the powder(s) available at that time. I had some black powder that I had reclaimed from early W.R.A. CO. .44W.C.F. and U.M.C. .44-40 cartridges and when tested in the Lyman measure …….“Bingo”, 40 grs by weight was dispensed. The same result was made with the B&M. So,early black powders, or at least some of them, were more dense than Goex which came much later in the 21st century.

Other measures-
Being an inquisitive sort of fellow,I recently purchased a few more hand held measures to see what their true volume weights were. Using Goex powder and setting them at “40”, here is what they dispensed by actual weight:
> Thompson Center Field B.P. measure –40 grains
> CVA Adjustable B.P. measure – 40 grains
> Traditions B.P. measure – 36 grains(Same as the Lyman & B&M)

Other powders –
Today we have several black powdersto choose from…..
Least dense to most dense - Goex,Olde Enysford, KIK / Schutzen / Diamondback, Swiss
Lyman, B&M, Traditions measures set at “40”–
= 36 grs. by weight – Goex, Olde Enysford,KIK
= 37 grs. by weight – Schuetzen
= 40 grs. by weight – Diamondback,Swiss

Thompson Center, CVA measures set at “40” –
= 40 grs. by weight – Goex, OldeEnysford, KIK
= 41 grs. by weight – Schuetzen
= 44 grs. by weight – Diamonback,Swiss

As I said in the beginning, for those of us that use b.p. by actual weight weight, this matters not but just goes to prove like some other things in life, things are not always what they seem to be.

Note: weights taken by the powder “lots”I have on hand. Other “lots” may give slightly different weights.
Weights shown were rounded off to the nearest grain.

w30wcf

[BrentD]

Some of the muzzleloading measures are egregiously inaccurate and in an very unhealthy direction. I have used both TC and CVAs and one of them, I think it was the CVS would dispense 127 grs when it was telling me it was measuring 95. There really is no excuse for such ridiculous inaccuracies and really emphasizes the need to confirm that any volume measure is at least in the ballpark. Running 127 grs in my flintlock .54 did not give my a good feeling being that it is a Colerain barrel.

[RobsTV]

With Black Powder Cartridge, I find that the simple original measure method still works best. Full case of powder. Compress enough to seat boolit. Done. I find that also gives best accuracy as well. Stopped weighing BP shortly after seeing results.

[cajun shooter]

RobsTV, It's evident from your posting that you missed the point of the posting by w30wcf. It's also evident that you have never done any serious BP cartridge loading. Your style of loading may work if your trying to hit something at 50 yards but would fall very short when tried in any serious shooting.
BPCR shooters have weighed the charges since the very early days of competition.

[BrentD]

Rob and Cajun, I think you are both right and wrong. I agree that nearly all of the best BPCR competitors weigh their charges. I weigh mine with ridiculous precision because I can and and it makes me feel good. But I'll also say that at the Raton BPCR Nationals last summer, Jerry Vanwey was shooting scope class silhouette w/o weighing his powder or his bullets. And he won, by just one point. Not weighing his powder was because it was easier, not better. And he got away with it. But if you ask him, he will tell you that volume measure is never more accurate, just that sometimes it is good enough. And Jerry is that good. This was his second national championship (I believe he weighed his charges for the first one).

I know of no person who shoots long range w/o weighing his powder. There probably is someone, but the guys regularly in the winner's circle and regularly at the top of the pile, weigh.

But going back to w30wcf's original post, there is a ridiculous amount of variation in powder measure calibration, whichi is not only inexcusable, but also a bit dangerous.

[Doc Highwall]

The variation also exists in smoke-less powder from different lots which affects burning speed.

[montana_charlie]

I don't have access to antique stuff of any kind, but I would like for somebody (who does) to take a handful of old powder measures and check them to see how uniform their internal volume is.
I'm talking about pre-Civil War vintage and measures from a variety of sources ... perhaps even European items.

CM

[Don McDowell]

You can make the weight variation quite large depending on how you fill the measure from the powder horn, and whether or not you fill it exactly the same each time.

[BrentD]

Or it just might vary anyway. But when two measures consistently measure vastly different values, when filled in identical methods, then it is the measures, not the measurer. Volume measures generally are poorly calibrated. Some of them, much worse than others.

[Don McDowell]

I have a Ted Cash measure from back in the 70's and one made in Taiwan and sold at KMart from the same time frame. They both throw reasonably close to the setting when using Goex 2f. Pouring consistant charges makes a flintlock or percussion gun shoot nice consistant groups...

[cajun shooter]

Don, My point was what John was referring to. If you take a powder like Swiss or Olde Eynsford, they will because of density give different readings than the regular Goex, or other standard grade of BP.
I have seen for years while doing my microscopic readings that the Swiss powders have different grain sizes than the other powders I've compared it to. Take care David

[Don McDowell]

Totally agree David, I always wonder when we see these bold statements about how much difference there is between Swiss and regular goex, why they never mention the difference in powder kernel size? 2f Swiss , Schuetzen and now Olde Eynsford are about the same as 3f regular Goex. My Lyman 55 measure when set to throw 70 grs of Goex 2f will drop closer to 75 grs of the European powders. Have not tried it with OE. But then again the charge weights thrown with the Lyman and other volume powder drops depends a lot on the consistency of operation filling the measuring chamber, and whether or not there may be any bridging in the powder reservoir.

[Lead pot]

I treat my muzzle loaders loading differently then my cartridge rifles. The friendly ML shoots are mostly close range, inside 50 yards, mostly 25-30 yds and the rifles are shot off hand. I just charge the rifle from the horn. If you shoot it enough you get the feel when you get enough in the barrel. +or - a little don't show up at 25 yards, it's still good enough to split a ball on the ax head or for doing a poker shoot.

The cartridge loading is a different deal shooting at a considerable distance. I weigh it to the 1/10th grn to get a consistent compression level of the powder which regulates the burn, but then the thought crosses my mind what if the case volume is not equal to get the same compression :)
These powder measures used with the graduations marks are just for references to get the same volume for the particular powder your using. Goex, Swiss, Schuetzen, KIK, Diamond are all different in weight and bulk.

For the powder drops like the B&M, 55's and the Redding for loading cartridges you can help them so they will drop very consistent charges fi you mount them to a shelf and mount a muffin fan to the shelf and cut some blades off the fan to create a gentle vibration. Just lift the lever to fill the drum and let the vibration settle the powder in the drum before you lower it to charge the case. You will find a very consistent drop.

[John Boy]

BPCR shooters have weighed the charges since the very early days of competition.
David,it was the norm when Schuetzen matches were popular and breech seating was also the norm... seat the bullet with a bullet seater - pour in the powder to fill the one case to the top - cap with a felt or cardboard wad - chamber and shoot!
The likes of Harry Pope & Dr Hudson would shoot 200yd off hand matches this way with groups we all would drool to equal today.
And this was the method with black powder and semi-smokeless

[Doc Highwall]

Even the best powder measure needs to be operated consistently to throw charges that have very little variation. And even with weighed charges how you pour the powder into the cartridge case makes a difference, even if the cases all weigh the same.

[BrentD]

Doc, no one argues that, but that's not where the conversation is at. Its about accuracy, not precision of the measures.

[Lumpy grits]

Live'n in the dry desert you have static to deal with. I have found that hard-wire grounding my PM's to a dedicated ground rod, greatly reduces variations in weight for both BP and smokeless powders.
DO NOT GROUND TO THE HOUSE'S GROUND CIRCUIT!
LG

[prs]

I have taken to the soap box on this issue for many years. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GRAIN OF VOLUTME. The idiot that started that has hopefully met with a tall tree and short rope. The errant concept has invaded our brains as a malignant glioma and we are thoughtlessly enslaved to it. Weigh your charge on a scale, select a volume measure, or measure setting, that just contains that charge of your favored fodder. Note the volume of that measure, if you wish, and do so in established units of volume such as cubic centimeter, mil liter, or cubic yard. Before long, you will have a brain map of charge quantity based upon your chosen STANDARD unit of measure instead of some convoluted ill thought out concept that is different from one frame of reference to another. Now, do we need to discuss "drams equivalent"? Arrrrrrrrrggghhhhh!

prs

[BrentD]

It's Sunday! Relax and have a cold one, guy. :)

[missionary5155]

Good morning
This is why I make my own "scoops" when I have settled on a powder charge for BP cartridges. My scoop will do as it is supposed to and if I watch my powder level in the glass coffee cup I try to keep at least 1/2 full will generally be within 1/2 gr of my desired charge. I use the flat edge of a broken hacksaw blade to level the scoop.
I use split cases as the scoop body trimmed to the correct length and a piece of 10 or 12 gauge copper wire soldered on the case side for the handle. I have one down here for measuring 3F into 44 WCF cases for the 92.
Mike in Peru

[Lumpy grits]

Also-Your volume vs. weight will change with each lot of powder.
LG

[cajun shooter]

Mike, My normal weighed charge of KIK 2f using my 43-210B bullet is 34 grains from my RCBS BP measure which was set with my scale and using a bullet that weighs 215 grains after lubing.
There is nothing wrong with scooping your powder charges, it's been done for hundreds of years. Here comes the big word "BUT" those scoops were made by using apothecary scales for the most part. The Buffalo hunters of the 19th century did this very thing so that they could reload their ammo without coming into town.
I will not be drawn into a weighed vs scoop discussion as they most likely have at least two hundred such threads in this forum.
I will end this with just one thought, as long as you are shooting the real black powder, you are welcome at my home any time. Take Care David

[cajun shooter]

Look in the Winchester catalog of 1873 where they are disusing the improvements of the 1873 44wcf rifle over the previous 1866 models. The very first paragraph talks about increasing the amount of powder loaded from 25 grains in the 66 to 40 grains in the 73. It goes on to say that this was done to increase the power over the previous loaded ammo.
Of course we all know that this is the way that many of our cartridges that we still shoot today received their name. Caliber first, then the amount of powder used in that cartridge. Later David

[w30wcf]

Guys,
Thank you for the added discussion and information.

Back in the days of yore, there were a number of black powder manufacturers in the U.S. ...... Laflin & Rand, American Mills, E.I. DuPont, Hazard, Oriental Mills, Austin, plus a few other smaller co's. Lots of competition, which likely made each of them strive to make a better product.

The Ideal (now Lyman) measure came into being in the late 1800's and obviously was regulated to dispense the actual grains in weight of those early powders. Thus, Swiss powder which has been manufactured since the early 1800's is dispensed in the same actual weight that the Ideal measure indicates.

B&M came along later and was regulated to dispense the same weight per volume as the Ideal measure. And then later on, the Ideal was used to regulate the "Traditions" measure.

Goex powder which is a product of the mid 1900's was the powder used to regulate the Thompson, CVA, & Lee measuring scoops.

As we know since our individual applications typically come down to the cases and bullets we are using and the amount of powder required to fill the powder space and allow for our desired amount of compression.

Anyway, interesting history.

w30wcf

[Don McDowell]

I don't think that Swiss is anything that even crossed Ideals mind at the time. At least they don't mention it, they do mention to use Hazard's Kentucky rifle powder, American mills new rifle powder, and if the load was to be compressed to use DuPonts powder as it is the United States Standard. The also recommend using Hazard's Electric powder in the wcf cartridges... Then on the next page they go on to tell about how a powder measure set to 100 grs may only throw 95 grs of another brand of powder... So I'm thinking their powder measure was regulated for DuPont 1f, or Hazard Kentucky rifle powder...

[country gent]

wieght of a volumne measure changes not only with diffrent manufacturers but also with diffrent granulations, lot numbers, and possibly age storage conditions. When discussing dippers charges loads we all describe the charge as XX grns thrown with XXX dipper, measure, or wieghed and trickled. But always expressed in grains giving the impression that the dippers and measures throw a wieght not a volumne. I make dippers for friends on occassion. I use cartridges and set the volumne with a sample of thier powder or leave slightly heavy to be set for them to set length with a file. A dipper measure gives a set volumne and the above can change that. Also factory made measures that sell inexpensively need to still make a profit for them. Most never realize theyy are off s they work up the load to measures graduations and are satisfied