suitable .38spcl carry load

[T-Bird]

I just bought a new s+w 462-2 airwt for c/c.I am an experienced pistol shooter but never had a carry gun. I loaded up a couple of loads for this little gun, and took my chrony along to the range. The 1st load was 358429 (173gr swc) over 5.5gr AA#5for 650fps. The 2nd load was 158gr Hornady XTP (one of those OTHER bullets) over 6gr AA#5 for 700fps.Both of these loads are close to the top in the manual for 38+p but don't seem very potent on paper and I know that can be deceiving. I don't know that the hollowpt will open@700fps. I thought the XTP was designed to work best @800-1200fps.Any help on this by someone knowing more about this wing of handloading than I do would be appreciated. Shoot straight, T-Bird

[MtJerry]

I use a Hornady 125gr. XTP over 5.0gr. of 231.

For cast, I use a Lyman 358495 148gr. WC over 3.6gr of 231.

[KCSO]

#1 if this is your carry gun don't use reloads for anything but practice. If you ever need to use the gun you will spend time in court trying to explain why YOU loaded man killer bullets. It's not worth the cost of a box of premium defensive ammo. This sounds stupid and dead is dead but this will save you 2 days in the trial, and there WILL be a trial.

#2 depending on your experience and recoil handling abilities I would either look for +P 125 hollow points for that new snubbie or i would go with a box of NYCLAD 158 grain lead hp loads. Both have worked well for me in short barrel guns and they are not too hard on the gun. I prefer the nyclads as they have always worked well and the extra bullet weight gives more penetration in heavy clothing.

For practice you need to simply find a load that hits as close to on as your duty load and will give similar recoil for practice.

[Bret4207]

I've reseached the "handloaded killer bullet" idea bit and can't find where it's been an issue. Even corresponded a bit with the author/professional witnesss who lead the pack on the idea. I use a cast 150SWC gr target load, factory SP or HP and Nyclad when I can find it, which isn't often. If someone can find a case where handloads have resulted in an unfavorable verdict, either criminally or civily I'd like to read up on it.

[xtimberman]

My all-time favorite .38 Sp. load for whatever is the "classic" 5.0gr. Unique + your #358429 cast from WWs.

I can't comment from personal experience on using this round for SD, but many years ago, I plugged a really big badger at close range with this same combination. I shot it head-on as it charged from a hole in a pond levee. The round stopped it immediately, traveled full-length, and exited at a hind leg.

xtm

[T-Bird]

I am not concerned about recoil especially, I hunt with a 45 colt and a .44 mag. I was just concerned that these bullets weren't moving fast enough from that short bbl. I don't really want to" hot load" that little gun I don't think that aluminum frame would take alot. I had no idea about the handloaded "mankillers" issue.AA#5 is slightly slower than Unique on the burn rate charts that I've seen, so maybe the 5.5gr and 6gr loads approximate the 5gr Unique. Timberman any idea about the velocity of that load from your gun?I didn't know whether heavier, lead alloy,non expandable and slower was better, or hollow pt jacket that may not expand. Shoot straight, T-Bird

[Bret4207]

I have a feeling a 358429 at 650+ fps will penetrate enough to cause grievous injury to anyone who attacks you. I would cast it soft but wouldn't expect any mushrooming at all. Although not "tacticool" I would have no problem using plain old wad cutters at target speeds. We're talking defense which means something at fairly close range and the WC should be fine. Much easier on you and the gun too.

[xtimberman]

T-Bird,
I haven't chrono'd that exact load mentioned above. However, I recently chrono'd a similar one with a sli. lighter bullet in a 4" S&W M-15:

Lyman 358477 153gr. SWC; WW-Super Cases; WSP; 5.0gr Alliant Unique; 852 fps ave.; 52 deg. F

Diff. in components, bullet wt., seating depth, crimp, etc. will make for variables, but I'd guess that the 358429/Unique combo would measure ~775-800 fps velocity in your snub.

xtm

[T-Bird]

I've never been afflicted with" magnumitis" and being 54yrs.young, I doubt I'll ever get it.By the same token, I don't want to defend myself with a peashooter.I have no idea about loads for thugs but I know what it takes to bring a deer down at 25yds.Deer don't shoot back.Our thug element has increased over the last few years, I live next door to Auburn where the 18yr. old girl was killed last week.The suspect was a local. I am a small business owner and saw someone videotaping my place of business from the street with a cellphone last week, I can't think of a good reason for that except for the possibility they may be planning something. I have had a license to carry for years but never have. I have started now. Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[testhop]

WITH THE 358429 I USE 4.0 GR. BULLSEYE IN A S.W MOD 60 for carry and 2.7 for practice
you can always use lighter loads to do the most practice with and finish up with full loads
so you are used to the hotter loads each time you go to the range
IF YOU ARE EXPECTING TROUBLE I LIKE THE 148 GR HOLLOW BASE WAD CUTTER LOADER BACKWARDS OVER 3.0 B.E OPENS UP THE SIZE
a nickle

[cabezaverde]

I've reseached the "handloaded killer bullet" idea bit and can't find where it's been an issue. Even corresponded a bit with the author/professional witnesss who lead the pack on the idea. I use a cast 150SWC gr target load, factory SP or HP and Nyclad when I can find it, which isn't often. If someone can find a case where handloads have resulted in an unfavorable verdict, either criminally or civily I'd like to read up on it.

Thanks for posting that Bret. Knowing your background, I have been meaning to ask you about this for a while now.

Do you think the case would be the same in NY?

[Char-Gar]

A 38 Special snubby is a thin reed upon which to place one's life in the best of circumstances. Don't handicap it with less than the very best load. In this case it would be one of the lightweight JHP loads. I would suggest taking a look at Cor-Bon ammo with the Barnes DPX bullets.

I am a dedicated bullet caster and handloader, but I know when to shell out a few bucks for factory ammo.. Handload what you want for practice.

IMHO the threat of a lawsuit for using handloads is 100% bogus.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I have carried a Mod 60 in .38 for years (before I switched to a SP101 in .357). After doing lots of chronographing, I settled on wadcutters. Simply b/c of 2 reasons. 1. Wadcutters cut. The holes are full caliber holes, and they penetrate sufficiently. 2. Wadcutters will get about 10% more velocity out of a 1&7/8" barrel than SWCs, JHPs or whatever else. The reason is the boolit base being deep seated in the case gets to travel about 10% more distance under pressure than a boolit seated farther forward. This is very measureable and repeatable.

My Mod 60 is loaded right now with 358091 WWAC'd at 850 fps. But its in the drawer. My SP101 is being carried with 158 Gold Dots, 10.7 gr Blue Dot, goes 1140 fps and is very loud.

In Texas, the penal code delineates when deadly force is justified, but says nothing of how the force may be generated, either by hand loads, cap and ball, factory loads or baseball bat. Civil side - its always a 50/50. Even Factory loads can be said to be chosen for their "deadly" characteristics.

[DLCTEX]

Here in Wheeler county Texas you may get fined for not using enough gun, but not for using "Killer" ammo. DALE

[Scrounger]

I have carried a Mod 60 in .38 for years (before I switched to a SP101 in .357). After doing lots of chronographing, I settled on wadcutters. Simply b/c of 2 reasons. 1. Wadcutters cut. The holes are full caliber holes, and they penetrate sufficiently. 2. Wadcutters will get about 10% more velocity out of a 1&7/8" barrel than SWCs, JHPs or whatever else. The reason is the boolit base being deep seated in the case gets to travel about 10% more distance under pressure than a boolit seated farther forward. This is very measureable and repeatable.

My Mod 60 is loaded right now with 358091 WWAC'd at 850 fps. But its in the drawer. My SP101 is being carried with 158 Gold Dots, 10.7 gr Blue Dot, goes 1140 fps and is very loud

In Texas, the penal code delineates when deadly force is justified, but says nothing of how the force may be generated, either by hand loads, cap and ball, factory loads or baseball bat. Civil side - its always a 50/50. Even Factory loads can be said to be chosen for their "deadly" characteristics.


That's always been my thinking: A good lawyer can take anything you do and use it against you. A good defense attorney can put up good arguments against whatever the other lawyer said. The operative word is "good". It takes more to be a lawyer than mere lack of morals.

[S.R.Custom]

First of all, let's be clear. If you're knee deep in the crap, you don't want a "good" lawyer, you want a skilled lawyer. (Indeed... is there such a thing as a good lawyer? Besides a dead one, I mean...)

Now for what Bret said...


I've reseached the "handloaded killer bullet" idea bit and can't find where it's been an issue. Even corresponded a bit with the author/professional witnesss who lead the pack on the idea. I use a cast 150SWC gr target load, factory SP or HP and Nyclad when I can find it, which isn't often. If someone can find a case where handloads have resulted in an unfavorable verdict, either criminally or civily I'd like to read up on it.

Indeed, I've never heard of one; I'm calling GunWriter B.S. A trial, by definition, is an argument over points of law. Unless using handloads is specifically illegal in a given juridiction, I don't see how anyone involved in an otherwise clean shoot could be found guilty based on the use of handloads. If anyone can prove me wrong by citing a specific case, please do-- I'd like very much to know about it.

That said, my favorite carry loads are: (1) for the .45ACP, 230 gr Speer Gold Dot over 7.0 grs of Unique, (2) for the .44 Special or Magnum Revolver, 240 gr Hornady XTP over 18.2 grs of 296 in a .44 spl case, and (3) for the .357 Magnum, 140 gr Sierra JHC over 13.5 grs of Blue Dot.

There are enough nice, lightweight .357 Magnum guns that I would not consider carrying a mere .38 special.

That's my 2¢. That, and $1.23 will get you a cup of coffee at MCDonald's. ;)

[jdhenry]

The "Don't use hand loads" was taught in my ccw class.It might not have been used against someone yet, But I'm sure it will. If given the chance.

The way it was put in the class was:

You were looking to put a hurting on someone and the bullets that the men in blue use weren't good enough for you. So you went out and developed the hardest hitting load you could come up with.

STOP!!! Don't tear me apart yet:)


MY first responce was well DUH!!!! That is the point:D

But why risk it. Unless you have lots of money to pay out, Just buy what the cops carry and that is one less thing they can use against you. My local P.D had no problem telling me what they use and where to buy it:)


But IF this is just some wives tale......... I would in a heart beat load the hardest hitting round I can come up with:):):):) and then some.

[S.R.Custom]

...You were looking to put a hurting on someone and the bullets that the men in blue use weren't good enough for you. So you went out and developed the hardest hitting load you could come up with...

That's just it. It doesn't get any more vicious than the stuff the guys in blue use. Consider the Winchester Ranger T-series. It's the old Black Talon without the evil black paint, loaded to +P velocities, sold only to cops...

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=RA45TP

[nicholst55]

My all-time favorite .38 Sp. load for whatever is the "classic" 5.0gr. Unique + your #358429 cast from WWs.
xtm


Check a current manual - this load is at the bottom end of .357 Mag data now. I've shot thousands of rounds of this load, until I looked at a more current manual. Now I've cut back to between 4.0 and 4.5 grains of 'new' Unique.

[xtimberman]

IMO, lots of manuals look lawyered-up to me with their sudden across-the-board charge reductions. I'm not worried at all about that particular load for myself and my revolvers - I've even checked head expansion on that one. Nice rounded primers - no flattening at all in a M-15 and M-36. Besides, I've probably shot ~10,000+ rounds in that particular M-15 alone, and most of them have been that bullet with 5.2-5.3gr. Hercules Unique. However, I did back off to 5.0gr when I shifted over to using New Unique and Universal Clays.

Besides, TBird didn't ask about a plinking load - he asked about a +P carry load. :)

JMO,
xtm

[JayinAZ]

You might test some of the Speer 135gr Gold Dot Short Barrel loads over your chrono. Out of my 2" model 10, with chrono at 15 feet I clocked them at 865 fps.

For a handloaded round I've had good results with a 358156 over 5.4 gr of Unique, it clocks at nearly the same velocity from the 2" and averages 907 from my 3" model 10.

[leftiye]

If you want all that you can get out of the special, try HS7. Mild .357 loads (starting loads) with this powder do not exceed .38 special pressures, and give high for cartridge velocities (1200 fps IIRC). I used this with the Lyman 358156 (seat out to .357 length!!!) in my Colt officer's model before it was stolen. Haven't had a .38 special since then. Fast and accurate load.

That's if you can't find any Alcan 7(or was it 5?) (not much chance of that).

[Bret4207]

I don't really worry much about any of this stuff with lawyers etc. Maybe I'm naive, maybe pig headed, maybe just too tired to care, but the chances of me having to defend the use of a firearm in self defense, much less a handload, are so infinitesimally small that for me it's a non-issue. Should the day come I have to explain my handload they will ALL be target loads or hunting loads. I don't load for self defense, I load for hunting and plinking. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!

[MT Gianni]

I'm with Bret. If ever called on to explain myself "thats what was in the gun when I shot X. There was no preplan." Gianni

[georgeld]

Believe I read the same article. Not long after I was visiting with some town cops at the range for practice and asked what they used: HydraShok's.

Within a few days I bought a box. Good enough for me. At the time I had a bottom feeder .40. Since then I sold it and bought a snubby .38 that's with me all the time, even at home, right now it's in my pocket. That's the general purpose of a CC, right?

Can't use it to defend yourself when it's in the safe.

I am concerned with over penetration though. So when I do shoot/carry reloads, they're not over about 800fps solely because of that.

Bret, in your experience, and from what you've seem from such shootings. Do I need to be concerned with hitting someone behind because of full penetration? What's your thoughts on that part?

Thank you all,

[Bret4207]

George, I really have no idea if it's a valid concern. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with either issue. If it were me and I was in a position where I had to open fire in a crowded area I would hope to God I had the presence of mind to try and keep over penetration and MISSING in mind and try to allow for it. At armed robbery distance, 0-3 yards, I don't think you have a choice.

This is all part of the awesome responsibility that goes with being armed. Using a gun to protect yourself is fine. Not realizing the aftermath may well be as bad as what you avoided by firing is something I see a lot of. "I'd have capped him!!!" Hear it all the time from the boots. It just ain't like movies boys.

[Preacher]

Well...here's my load for my S&W 10 and a Mod.36 S&W. Found it in an issue of "Handloader" a few years ago. If you need the issue number I'll dig it up for you. It's a stiff one but works and is extremely accurate. Sort of goes against the grain of modern day thinking and is a bit over max according to more current reloading manuels (work up to it from 9.0 grs.) but here it is;

158 gr. Speer LSWC Hpt
CCI 550 sm pistol Mag Primer
11.0 grs. A-2400 powder
R-P 38 Special Nickel +P cases

This load clocks at 905 fps out of the 2" S&W 10 and shows no signs of pressure. It's my std defense load in the 38 Spl as well as my 357 "house gun". And yes I do use reloads for defense and carry - made that decision long ago and have yet to hear of one documented case in which anyone was convicted, jailed, or otherwise hammered by a lawyer because of the use of handloads in a defensive situation.

Preacher

[KevMT]

I think Bret has an excellent point here in that you should never have a carry load or a SHTF load. ALL of your loads are simply loads you shoot stuff with..... period.

For an example of what can happen when you defend yourself against a deranged lunatic with a history of violent behavior look in to the case of Harold Fish who is serving a life sentence for just that. (Edit by KevMT: I revisited the information and it is actually a 10 year sentence sorry for the initial misinformation)

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

Among the character flaws that the prosecution used to paint Fish as a gun nut looking for trouble were, his gun collection, he attended a school to learn how to shoot semi-auto pistols and targets with bullet holes in them still in his car. :killingpc

Meanwhile the jury was not allowed to hear testimony about the violent history and mental state of the attacker nor were they allowed to know that the attacker was armed with both a screw driver and a handgun.

I first saw this case on one of those news shows like prime time or dateline or some such. One of the things that really steamed me was when they interviewed one of the jurors and she stated that one of the most swaying pieces of evidence for her was that fish carried hollow point bullets and "lets face it you only carry hollow points when you want to do as much damage as possible".

So the assertion of Massad Ayoob and others about hand loads being used against you may be a bit off. The prosecution may paint you as a gun nut and no matter WHAT you use even if it is what the LEO's use you were clearly just out looking for trouble with your death machine. There are still people out there who believe you (and the LEO's) can and should shoot the gun out of the bad guys hand or just shoot to disable an attacker. I know because I have spoken to several of them in regard to a police shooting involving one of our locals. We all know that there are are large quantity of incredibly stupid people out there but the sad fact is that several of them could end up on your jury in a self defense trial.

Kev

[Bret4207]

"Meanwhile the jury was not allowed to hear testimony about the violent history and mental state of the attacker nor were they allowed to know that the attacker was armed with both a screw driver and a handgun."

If thats not grounds for an appeal I don't know what is. Although I may be treading on thin ice should any of my local neighbors read this, we seem to be getting a LOT of judges who allow ridiculous testimony into evidence while excluding other valid testimony. I think there is a need for the Judiciary to have some penalties for doing this type of stuff. I don't mean for this to turn political, this is more a legislative issue. Things have got to change.

[KevMT]

"Meanwhile the jury was not allowed to hear testimony about the violent history and mental state of the attacker nor were they allowed to know that the attacker was armed with both a screw driver and a handgun."

If thats not grounds for an appeal I don't know what is. Although I may be treading on thin ice should any of my local neighbors read this, we seem to be getting a LOT of judges who allow ridiculous testimony into evidence while excluding other valid testimony. I think there is a need for the Judiciary to have some penalties for doing this type of stuff. I don't mean for this to turn political, this is more a legislative issue. Things have got to change.

One part of this situation that I may have omitted was that Fish was not physically attacked. Fish was confronted by 2 extremely aggressive dogs on a hiking trail and fired a warning shot to scare them away. Words were exchanged between Fish and the owner and then the owner of the dogs approached him in an extremely aggressive manner. His body language and demeanor indicated that he was going to physically attack so Fish shot and killed him. I believe Fish claimed that the attacker was rushing him at the time he was shot. Since the incident occurred on a trail in the forest and there were no witnesses it was essential that the jury be told about MULTIPLE encounters that the public AND LAW ENFORCEMENT had with the dog owner in which they were afraid, due to his mental state, that the he would escalate to physical violence if he did not get what he wanted. The man clearly had a history of escalating into a threatening demeanor when he didn't get his way. But alas like so many other issues in this case the prosecution managed to prevent its admitance as evidence.

I know there was an appeal but I am not sure if it has been acted upon yet. Meanwhile the Arizona legislature tried to pass legislation addressing some of the more obvious problems with this case (I.e the burden of proof being on the defendant). Although the bill passed the House and Senate the governor vetoed it.

If I recall correctly, the argument about not allowing evidence of the gun or screw driver in possession of the attacker was that since they were concealed Fish could not have know they were there justifying his self defense.

I realize I am sort of hijacking this thread, although I feel the information is germane to the topic. But if a moderator (or anyone else) feels the need to move this to another forum just say the word.

Kev

[Ghugly]

Since I carry, I guess I've got as much of a right to an opinion as anyone. I've read about as much on the effectiveness of different defensive loads as anyone. And after sorting through pile after pile of steaming crap I've come to the conclusion that penetration is king.

If there isn't adequate penetration, nothing else matters. If you're facing someone with arms extended toward you (altogether possible, if he's shooting at you), you may well be asking your boolit, or bullet, to penetrate bone, multiple layers of who knows what kind of clothing, some more bone, and some flesh before getting to anything with the potential of quick incapacitation. The slimy scum might even be cowardly enough to be crouched behind some sort of barrier. The point is clear. You, and I, have no way to know what we may face (personally, I'm really hoping for nothing but peaceful years leading to old, old age). I would suggest a heavy semi-wad-cutter, pushed hard.

On the subject of over-penetration, I have an opinion as well. Do the best you can to avoid shooting anything that you don't intend to destroy. I practice a lot. You should too. The professionals, I hope, are better trained and more skilled than I am and they still miss their intended targets more often than they hit. So what are we discussing as the medium that we are concerned about over-penetrating? Air? Drywall? Brick?

[Bret4207]

"The professionals, I hope, are better trained and more skilled than I am and they still miss their intended targets more often than they hit."

True, true, true! No one has come up yet with a shooting game that duplicates some moron shooting at you!

[softpoint]

Here in Wheeler county Texas you may get fined for not using enough gun, but not for using "Killer" ammo. DALE

I believe here in Texas the law has been defined to say that if a grand jury opinion states that a shooting was justifiable, there won't be any trial, and no civil suit. If the shooting was justifiable in the first place, there are no grounds for civil suit.
I often carry my S&W mountain gun in .44 with 22gr. 2400, 250gr. Keith swc. Semiwadcutters are target loads, right?

[xtimberman]

Yep, you're correct. That flat nose and the front driving band on SWCs cut nice round scoring holes in paper targets!

xtm

[Ghugly]

I believe here in Texas the law has been defined to say that if a grand jury opinion states that a shooting was justifiable, there won't be any trial, and no civil suit. If the shooting was justifiable in the first place, there are no grounds for civil suit.
I often carry my S&W mountain gun in .44 with 22gr. 2400, 250gr. Keith swc. Semiwadcutters are target loads, right?

You bet! That 250gr Keith over 22gr of 2400 is just the ticket for cutting nice, BIG, round holes in targets. Enough momentum to pass clear through most targets. Makes it really easy to read your score. :drinks:

[MtGun44]

The fix for "HE USED HOLLOWPOINTS!!!" problem is to invite a local
police range officer to testify as to what type of ammo they use and
why . . . . . . hollowpoints, to avoid overpenetration. End of issue.

Did someone mention "capable defense attorney"?

Bill

[Bret4207]

Pretty sad when your freedom and fortune rests on a profession that is held in the same esteem as TV reporters, Politicians and other similar vermin. Ah, for the good old days when the word Attorney defined a man of intelligence and character above reproach.....