1/3/96 Alloy for 44 Mag hollow points for Elk?

[ShooterAZ]

I did some searches on this, and came up inconclusive. I was drawn for Elk this year in Northern Arizona. I plan on using my 44 Mag contender pistol with cast. I have taken Elk with it previously, but used 300gr XTP's, not cast. I have never been able to recover a bullet from an animal with that bullet.

I want to balance my alloy to get expansion, but still hold together for good penetration. I plan on using the NOE 434429HP sized to .431. I'm getting great accuracy with it now with the 1/3/96 alloy and 19gr 2400 for right at 1500fps 15ft from the muzzle. Iv'e tried to recover some boolits in wet phone books to see what they are doing, but I apparently didn't have nearly enough phone books.

I read a lot about WW 50-50 with pure, but it seems like the 1/3/96 would still be adequate for my needs. Any opinions? I have COWW, SOWW, tin, #2, Lino, pure, and a whole bunch of 1/3/96 from isotope cores. It casts great. Any reason that I shouldn't go ahead with it?

Thanks...Shooter

[Chill Wills]

The alloy sounds good except for the HP part. If shooting a solid I would say your golden.
A balance of SB and Sn in the alloy makes for a much less brittle metal. Your 1-3-96 would most likely loose it's nose.
2-2-96 is good. even 3-3-94

Good luck and enjoy the hunt!

[waksupi]

Definitely no hollow point!

[ShooterAZ]

Hmmm...no hollow point. Ok. Fortunately my mold has the pins for casting solids. I'll just use the hp's for practice or maybe for deer. Thanks for the advice guys.

[runfiverun]

ditto no hollow-point here too.

[white eagle]

would not use a hp on elk either but do not rule out expansion all together
elk are pretty substantial and it would be to your benefit to have an exit hole as well

[Blammer]

I would look at the "dish" HP if you are going to want a HP.

[Djones]

No hp not even a cup or dish.

i had a cup hp not exit a deer at 200+ yards in a 358 Winchester. 44 cal will do the job as a solid.

Good luck, sounds like a dream hunt!

[Larry Gibson]

Depends on the shape of the HP. Alloys sounds good. Shot a couple elk with 16-1 cast 249244s HP'd similar to the 429640 Devastator. One with revolver and one with my Contender. Expansion apparently was excellent and penetration was through and through. Velocities were 1350 and 1500 fps. I have since gone to the Devastator for hunting with my 44s.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

I would not use a HP on deer from a .44. An Elk? what if you hit a big bone? Do not believe all that say to hit right, most can't hold 2" at 25 yards.
You want an exit hole with enough internal damage. Since the 300 XTP worked, look for the same with cast. Just enough nose upset without a failure to penetrate.

[jeff223]

HPs leave at home and use a solid of some sort.I will be in Colorado this fall hunting with a muzzle loader and I just got some 460 grain No Excuses boolits.Big thumpers!

[44man]

I have hundreds of deer with a flintlock and then built my .54 Hawken. I shot a big doe that was moving fast with a round ball, hit big bone in the shoulder, destroyed the spine and broke bone in the other shoulder and still had an exit. I was surprised at the damage, you would think I had a .300.
However I recovered every 240 HP I ever used on deer and quit, going to LBT styles, the Lee 310 and heavy boolits. The difference was amazing. I think the Lee or the 320 LBT would work perfect on elk. The problem with the HP is I never had a blood trail. If I had not been in open country, I could have lost some.
The misconception is "energy dump" by keeping a boolit inside, does not work that way.

[altheating]

Larry, how are you getting 153900 fps out of the 44 mag? Man that is smoking fast. LOL

[44man]

Larry, how are you getting 153900 fps out of the 44 mag? Man that is smoking fast. LOL
Amazing! But a trip of the finger is all.
I don't know anyone that kills more deer a year as I do, 5 to 7 is normal with revolvers and I do a necropsy on each to evaluate results. I can tell you what each caliber and boolit does. I do not use water jugs or paper or wood. Tell me a boolit that goes through is a waste and I have a feather to beat hell out of you. Tell me a boolit that stops in an animal is better and I have a turkey feather. From there I go to a baseball bat.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, how are you getting 153900 fps out of the 44 mag? Man that is smoking fast. LOL

Same way a lot of "groups" get shot and measured and velocities "guestimated".......with the keyboard! I've corrected the typographical error, thanks for the "catch".

44man

No one has mentioned "energy dump" or keeping the bullets inside the animal with the use of HP'd cast bullets. It is a proven fact that expanding bullets kill quicker and much more efficiently. Fact is many of us have found properly alloyed and designed HP'd cast bullets ot be very effective on big game. The fact you not had a good experience with them simply means you used the wrong alloy and design. Instead of learning how to make them work you moved on to other types of bullets. That's certainly okay. However, some of us have taken the time to test and learn how to make HP'd cast bullets perform with excellent results.

You might note the OP has already penetration tested his bullets and did not find them lacking in penetration. There are numerous threads on this forum demonstrating the effective use of such properly alloyed and designed cast bullets. The OP did not ask whether he should or shouldn't use the 429421s HP'd but ask about the alloy to use and if there was any reason "not to go ahead" with the alloy he was using so he could "I want to balance my alloy to get expansion, but still hold together for good penetration".......any helpful suggestions for the OP related to his question?

Larry Gibson

[ShooterAZ]

I have not shot a big game animal with a cast hollow point yet. I have shot some coyotes and big Arizona jack rabbits with a cast 45acp hp though, and the exit holes are downright huge. If I can get a larger wound channel and adequate penetration with the right alloy, I would not hesitate to use it. Larry, I went to the NOE site to post a link of the hollow point profile of my 434429, and it appears as if it might be discontinued and is no longer listed on the site. Maybe just a limited run, I'm not sure. I can say this though, casting with the pins for flat point the boolits are casting 20+ grains heavier, over 265 grains. It's a pretty deep hollow point.

[Ramjet-SS]

Larry thank you for saying it,like it should have been said. Nothing wrong with HP to the OPs post I have had great performance with Lyman #2 and cast HP.

[44man]

Same way a lot of "groups" get shot and measured and velocities "guestimated".......with the keyboard! I've corrected the typographical error, thanks for the "catch".

44man

No one has mentioned "energy dump" or keeping the bullets inside the animal with the use of HP'd cast bullets. It is a proven fact that expanding bullets kill quicker and much more efficiently. Fact is many of us have found properly alloyed and designed HP'd cast bullets ot be very effective on big game. The fact you not had a good experience with them simply means you used the wrong alloy and design. Instead of learning how to make them work you moved on to other types of bullets. That's certainly okay. However, some of us have taken the time to test and learn how to make HP'd cast bullets perform with excellent results.

You might note the OP has already penetration tested his bullets and did not find them lacking in penetration. There are numerous threads on this forum demonstrating the effective use of such properly alloyed and designed cast bullets. The OP did not ask whether he should or shouldn't use the 429421s HP'd but ask about the alloy to use and if there was any reason "not to go ahead" with the alloy he was using so he could "I want to balance my alloy to get expansion, but still hold together for good penetration".......any helpful suggestions for the OP related to his question?

Larry Gibson
Of course what you say is true. It is so much harder to find what works but I found what my guns use best. I just will not say what you need because we are not shooting the same. Your 800 fps or your 2500 fps does not match. While I know my guns, you must learn yours and for me to tell anyone what they need can be silly.
I relate my experiences with certain boolits but it is still up to the hunter to get it right. Not one kill, but many with results that are of record.

[Ramjet-SS]

Heck most the fun is sharing what works and I am fan of the HP on game if the velocity and alloy match they are very effective.

[44man]

What I found for woodchucks was not right for deer.

[Tar Heel]

Just my penny here.....I would not use HP bullets.
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[cherokeetracker]

The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

I would not use the Hollow Point on Elk. We have some small deer here in Texas and they work well. Matter of fact I can think of a really good load using hollow points with my 44 special. But we are talking Elk on this post, no hollow points IMO for Elk.

[GaryN]

Just my personal opinion but I would balance the antimony and the tin to be close to the same. A balanced alloy seems to be a lot tougher with less shattering.

[Larry Gibson]

.......... Larry, I went to the NOE site to post a link of the hollow point profile of my 434429, and it appears as if it might be discontinued and is no longer listed on the site. Maybe just a limited run, I'm not sure. I can say this though, casting with the pins for flat point the boolits are casting 20+ grains heavier, over 265 grains. It's a pretty deep hollow point.

ShooterAZ

When I used the 429244 the bullet weight 270 gr cast of 16-1 alloy and fully dressed. I HP'd the bullet with the with a 1/8" Forster HP tool so the HP was only .3 deep. Then I tapered the HP with a Michaels rear sling swivel drill which gave the HP a wider mouth. The bullet weighed 254 gr after HPing. The 16-1 alloy with no antimony expanded very smoothly with the expansion rolling back evenly as tested at 1550 fps in soppy wet newsprint.

The 429640 Devastator has an HP .276 wide and .262 deep. The bullet oal is .762 so if the HP rolls and breaks off there is still about a 240 gr WC (can't get any bigger meplat than that on a .44!) that is .5 long still pushing through. As I've said I've shot 2 elk (rocky Mountain; 1 cow and one rag horn) with those HPs; 1 429244 and one 429640. A super BKH with 7 1/2" barrel was used with the 429244 and a 10" Contender was used with the 429640. The 429244 was loaded over 22 gr 2400 and the 429640 was loaded over 23 gr H110. The shots were at 25 - 35 yards and both were just behind the front leg raking forward through the heart. Both bullets exited through the front of the offside front shoulder. Both wound channels exhibited excellent expansion. Both elk died quickly.

That is my actual experience with .44 HPs on elk. I also through the years have found most all factory HP pins make the HP too deep. Can you post pics of your Mould with the HP pins? On handgun bullet HPs I don't like the HP to be any deeper than the top of the front drive band and then many times not even that deep. The idea is to have reliable expansion with minimal slough off of the expansion petals, not the explosive effect many associate with HPs. That's why the 16-1 alloy works very well. It is "hard" enough to withstand the acceleration to 1500 - 1600 fps with PB's bullets giving good accuracy. Yet w/o antimony the alloy expands reliably and evenly. Keith settled on the 16-1 alloy as best for use in his .44 Magnum classic load of 22 gr 2400 under the 429421.

Larry Gibson

136738

[TXGunNut]

I've had excellent results using FP solids on our little TX deer and some pretty good-sized hogs. A 43 cal boolit punches a pretty good hole but from what I hear elk need all the boolit performance we can deliver. I've recently received my first HP mould and you can bet I'll be re-reading all of Larry's posts on the subject.
Congrats on getting drawn for what I hope is a very memorable hunt.

[popper]

Shooter - add 130 gr. of Zepp Root Killer per pound to IsoCore, it won't break up. Doesn't add much hardness but really tough. Shot a 40SW TC into a rock pile ~5 ft. Nose was ~0.4 - 9mm jacketed all broke to pieces or bent bad. Shoot 300BO 140 gr into fiber siding backerboard, above 1800 you get 10% larger holes. Same results with 308W. No recovered rifle boolits as it's a public range.

[Jeffrey]

A friend has used these to take several elk using a Dan Wesson revolver. Duplicating the load should not be too difficult. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/513011/buffalo-bore-ammunition-44-remington-magnum-p-340-grain-lead-flat-nose-gas-check-box-of-20?cm_vc=ProductFinding