another 9mm leading problem

[vernb]

I picked up a Lee 124 tl 6 gang mold and tried tumble lubing for a p95 . After a lot of leadingui gave up. Now I picked up a citadel 1911 9 mm I figured I'd try again. The mold drops at .356 to .358 so I thought powder coating would add some Diameter. I used hf red and black asbb dry tumble method. the coating looks good. 50/50 coww pure. I adjusted my taper crimp to just pas the plunk test and I still get leading in the second half of the barrel. Seating at 1.110 which puts all the driving bands in the case. Loaded over 3.7 grains of bullseye. I push the bullets through a Lee 358 sizer and the bullets all make light contact

[Maximumbob54]

From my own experience and from reading up on it that mold is known to be a pain. Buy the non tumble lube version and they work like champs. If Lee would cut the tl mold wider then it might work better.

Edit:

Sorry, I thought this was about the TC version. That is the one I know to drop skinny.

[rsrocket1]

Did you slug your barrel?
Did you measure the diameter of the bullets after seating them then pulling them out (are they still 0.358")?
What sort of expander are you using to prevent the bullets from swaging down (if any)?

Leading in the 2nd half of the barrel usually comes from lube failure with too fast of a bullet, but since you are PC-ing them, there shouldn't be any exposed lead to cause it. Unless the barrel is wider at the muzzle end than at the chamber end.

What is your load (powder and charge)?

Just a few questions.

[NC_JEFF]

My load for 124gr lrn in 9mm is 3.5-3.6gr of Bullseye and I'm using an OAL of 1.130. You are seated .20 deeper than that, could this be elevating pressure to higher levels than your wanting?

[vernb]

I did slug the barrel in the first gun (p95) . It slugged .355-.356. I haven't slugged this one yet. Mainly because of only leading the second half of the barrel. I figured it was a sign of lube failure too. I guess my question was aimed towards the tl 124 bullets and the red hf powder. Maybe I missed the post where everyone gave up on them.

[runfiverun]

well it was over a year ago.
but this mold was probably the number one thread starter on the site.
all the same header asking for help with leading.

[DougGuy]

If your barrel's throat is too tight to load the boolit seated out where you'd like to seat it, the throat (or absence of throat) may be shaving the PC off right out of the case mouth and sending it downrange with the boolit. If you can't seat the boolit in the throat, the throat needs reaming and will likely help your leading immensely while dropping pressures and generally improving groups.

[rsrocket1]

I did slug the barrel in the first gun (p95) . It slugged .355-.356. I haven't slugged this one yet. Mainly because of only leading the second half of the barrel. I figured it was a sign of lube failure too. I guess my question was aimed towards the tl 124 bullets and the red hf powder. Maybe I missed the post where everyone gave up on them.

Well shoot, I think I missed that memo too. I just bought the TL356-120-2R and poured out 1050 of them a couple of weeks ago. They shot great in my M&P40 with the 9mm barrel and also in my Shield 9. I've seated them anywhere from 1.10" to 1.17" with anything from 4g to 5g Unique and 3 to 4g Red Dot. Zero leading and accuracy on par with the Lee 356-120-TC that I've been using for the past few years.

Here they are coated with HF red, a bare test seating and some Sherwin Williams purple PC. The only problem I had was when I accidentally loaded some unsized coated bullets and they wouldn't pass the plunk test. I measured them and they were 0.360". They need to be 0.356" in order to fit in the tight throated M&P barrels. My barrels slug at 0.3545" on the groove and 0.340" on the lands. You can see the effects of the plunk test on the unsized lead bullet. There is a little scraping on the shoulder of the lead where it met resistance on the barrel throat. These bullets drop at 0.358" from the mold. These are all test rounds and you can see that I was a little over-aggressive on the taper crimp. My ideal taper crimp is to bring the case mouth just barely beyond vertical.
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[vernb]

well it was over a year ago.
but this mold was probably the number one thread starter on the site.
all the same header asking for help with leading.

So it's a poor design mold ?

[vernb]

Well shoot, I think I missed that memo too. I just bought the TL356-120-2R and poured out 1050 of them a couple of weeks ago. They shot great in my M&P40 with the 9mm barrel and also in my Shield 9. I've seated them anywhere from 1.10" to 1.17" with anything from 4g to 5g Unique and 3 to 4g Red Dot. Zero leading and accuracy on par with the Lee 356-120-TC that I've been using for the past few years.

Here they are coated with HF red, a bare test seating and some Sherwin Williams purple PC. The only problem I had was when I accidentally loaded some unsized coated bullets and they wouldn't pass the plunk test. I measured them and they were 0.360". They need to be 0.356" in order to fit in the tight throated M&P barrels. My barrels slug at 0.3545" on the groove and 0.340" on the lands. You can see the effects of the plunk test on the unsized lead bullet. There is a little scraping on the shoulder of the lead where it met resistance on the barrel throat. These bullets drop at 0.358" from the mold. These are all test rounds and you can see that I was a little over-aggressive on the taper crimp. My ideal taper crimp is to bring the case mouth just barely beyond vertical.
136274

Should I try a second coat? I just tumble lubed 40 with 2 coats of 45/45/10 to see if it would work better than the powder coating. Sizing after the first coat it hardly touches the 358 sizer. My groups with the powder coating wasn't amazing but they were comparable to plated bullets

[vernb]

I just measured my flare plug and it's .353 (Dillon dies ) I pulled a bullet and it isn't swaged at all. The base of the bullet seems oval and measures around 355 to 356 but the bearing surface is 3575

[rsrocket1]

You might be able to see the bulge in my cases caused by the combination of case expansion die and bullet. The 9mm plug is just too narrow. I use the Lee powder through expansion plug for the 38 S&W inside the 9mm PTX die. This is more of a full length plug with a flare compared to the flare only of the 9mm plug. I bought it as a separate piece for $3 from Titan Reloading (http://www.titanreloading.com/service-parts/reloading-die-parts/lee-se1699-pm-exp-plug-38-sw) which is one of the sponsors of this site. You can get by with a 38 Special/357 Magnum plug, but the body of the plug is too short for the 9mm case and you'll need to make a spacer out of a dowel or metal tube. I set the plug to go the full depth with a little extra to flare the case mouth. A bullet can be inserted the first couple tenths of an inch with little resistance but it needs the press to be seated the rest of the way. The taper crimp closes the flare and allows the cartridges to pass the plunk test in my barrels.

[fixerupper]

You might be able to see the bulge in my cases caused by the combination of case expansion die and bullet. The 9mm plug is just too narrow. I use the Lee powder through expansion plug for the 38 S&W inside the 9mm PTX die. This is more of a full length plug with a flare compared to the flare only of the 9mm plug. I bought it as a separate piece for $3 from Titan Reloading (http://www.titanreloading.com/service-parts/reloading-die-parts/lee-se1699-pm-exp-plug-38-sw) which is one of the sponsors of this site. You can get by with a 38 Special/357 Magnum plug, but the body of the plug is too short for the 9mm case and you'll need to make a spacer out of a dowel or metal tube. I set the plug to go the full depth with a little extra to flare the case mouth. A bullet can be inserted the first couple tenths of an inch with little resistance but it needs the press to be seated the rest of the way. The taper crimp closes the flare and allows the cartridges to pass the plunk test in my barrels.

^ This. Using that larger expander and sizing my 9mm bullets to .358 solved all my leading issues in 9mm.

[matrixcs]

My range/casting buddy was having similar leading issues with an h&k polygon barrel using the lee rn tl. He had loaded 1500 of them... He had oven heat treated the boolits. I pulled a couple and tested the hardness bhn 22-24 , he thought harder was better.. On my suggestion more were cast with bhn 10 alloy and leading stopped. Just one of many possible causes to think about.

[popper]

only leading the second half of the barrel Oval base & hard alloy = leading - unless it's an out of round Lee pushthrough.

[runfiverun]

I wouldn't say a poor design it just isn't compatible with many of the guns on the market.

the fifteen different throat/chamber combinations being used by the various makers make one design fine for some and junk for others.

I designed a mold for the 9mm that is similar to many of the older 45 acp designs it's design is based on the guns having a throat, or the boolits ability to be sized down to slip in a non throated barrel.
the nose is slightly tapered as is the front drive band so you can headspace on the case mouth and let the boolit self center in the barrel by using the nose shape to help center things.
it wasn't an easy task trying to make something that could work in just about everything.
and the design could still be improved on by changing the nose shape a bit more.

sometimes you just have to modify the guns throat itself to make cast work, not a big thing really it will make jacketed shoot better too.
it's a manufacturing thing designed to save money and time.

[vernb]

only leading the second half of the barrel Oval base & hard alloy = leading - unless it's an out of round Lee pushthrough.
The oval base was measured on an unsized naked bullet

[vernb]

My range/casting buddy was having similar leading issues with an h&k polygon barrel using the lee rn tl. He had loaded 1500 of them... He had oven heat treated the boolits. I pulled a couple and tested the hardness bhn 22-24 , he thought harder was better.. On my suggestion more were cast with bhn 10 alloy and leading stopped. Just one of many possible causes to think about.

I casted with 50/50 air cooled wheel weights/ pure and a pinch of tin. I have no idea what kind of bhn that is but I thought I could try water dropping after the powder coating

[gpidaho]

vernb: I'm casting 9mm with the Lee TL356-124 and I too powder coat the boolits. Also I'm shooting the Walther PPQ a pistol that seems to be giving fits to some. I'm not usually the lucky one, but so far I'm very pleased with both boolit and pistol. I take a couple of steps in my 9 loading others would think to time consuming. With the pc'd boolits sized .358, I use a 38spl. 357mag Lyman M-die for expansion. You have to be careful here as if you expand too deeply you'll bulge the case as you get into the thicker area toward the base. I then flare the cases with the Lee universal case expander. A little time consuming, but I enjoy working at the loading bench. Loads I've used so far with this are 4.2gr WSF 3.5 TiteGroup 5.5 VV 3N37 and 4.1 Longshot none leaded and no feeding problems. Good luck and good shooting GP

[Tar Heel]

Ditch the "Tumble Lube" concept for 9mm cast bullets. Purchase a Lyman 120gr TRUNCATED CONE bullet mold. This ELIMINATES all the issues with throat (leade) and ogive. Cast with WW alloy, size bullets to .356 and lube bullets with 50/50 NRA formula lube. Heat treat if you want to but it's not needed at 9mm velocities with WW alloy. I have settled on AA-7 as a choice propellant. You can fuss with this all you want but believe me......there are terabytes of lamentations on this site alone regarding this issue. The Lyman TC bullet has fit ALL my 9mm chambers and shoots exceptionally well with AA-7. I have NOT personally shot this bullet in a Glock but friends of mine have shot my loads in their toy guns (Glocks) and this combo does not lead in the plastic stuff with polygonal rifling.

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[robertbank]

What Tar Heel said. The Lyman 356402 mold I have has cast well over 50K bullets or more and go down the barrels of all my 9MM guns without incident. My go to load has been 4.1 gr of Win 231 for IDPA. Load makes about 130PF. I have recently started sizing my boolits .356 from .357.

I have also loaded this bullet over Unique, Tightgroup and Universal with good results.

Take Care

Bob

[guncheese]

late to the show here but...
that Citadel is made by Armscor
i have a 9mm full size RIA that leaded something horrible with PC bullets
and it wasnt the bore size but the throat (or lack thereof) and the horrible bore finish
here it is after 100 or so rounds
http://goo.gl/OV9sXf
i emailed Ivan at Armscor and he had Arnel (one of their smiths) pick me out a barrel
and he gave it a better throat leade and shipped it off to me
that solved most of the issue
during this time i realized that whoever is making the barrels for them was parkerizing the bore when they did the outside (heck everything in the gun was parked!! what a nasty trigger that made)
and that takes alot of polishing and shooting to clear out
now it behaves pretty well
and here is what she slugs at
http://goo.gl/CBvZnv
and yeah i know the mic is a bit out of cal but hey im retired and cant slip it through on the companies dime anymore :P

[vernb]

I'd like to try the case expander idea. I'm loading on a Dillon 550 can anyone tell me if the powder funnel for a 38 sp 357 mag will do the trick. Can anyone measure theirs.

[ioon44]

My D funnel for .38 measures .3545". I had to cut off the bottom of the powder die to where it will just hold the funnel with the powder die touching the shell plate.
I load .3575" in 9mm, this stopped the swaging of the boolits in the case. My 9mm F funnel measured .351" and a pulled boolit measured .353" this caused leading and poor groups.
This was with 6-2-92 alloy air cooled.

[rsrocket1]

guncheese,
You are aware that Parkerizing involves dipping the part in Phosphoric acid right? If that acid got into the barrel, it is about as good as dead because the insides would look like the Parkerized outsides, rough and matte. No lead bullet will go down there without being scraped all along the bore as if it were going down sandpaper. Looks like someone owes you a new barrel.

[kryogen]

if using dillon press you need a larger expander.
Mr bulletfeeder sells the proper expander for 9mm I have been told.

[gpidaho]

Just my opinion, everyone has one. Too small of an expander is the #1 problem leading to barrel leading. When using progressive presses most are set up for using jacketed bullets not boolits. At times it takes more than a new press and pulling the handle to make things work. I haven't used his services my self, but understand "Buckshot" can make an expander to much improve results. GP

[robertbank]

Just my opinion, everyone has one. Too small of an expander is the #1 problem leading to barrel leading. When using progressive presses most are set up for using jacketed bullets not boolits. At times it takes more than a new press and pulling the handle to make things work. I haven't used his services my self, but understand "Buckshot" can make an expander to much improve results. GP

Well I have discovered I have much the same problem with my 9MM. My bullets pass the crush test BUT when loaded the bullet coating is being scrapped (rubbed) off. I just pulled 7 9MM cartridges at random and pulled the bullets. In each case their was exposed lead on the driving bands and not surprisingly I had small amounts of leading, or was it coating in my CZ and M&P barrels after 10 rounds. There was definitely some leading but the bulk may well be coating. After just 10 rounds there was not enough to tell.

Take Care

Bob

[vernb]

Well I have discovered I have much the same problem with my 9MM. My bullets pass the crush test BUT when loaded the bullet coating is being scrapped (rubbed) off. I just pulled 7 9MM cartridges at random and pulled the bullets. In each case their was exposed lead on the driving bands and not surprisingly I had small amounts of leading, or was it coating in my CZ and M&P barrels after 10 rounds. There was definitely some leading but the bulk may well be coating. After just 10 rounds there was not enough to tell.

Take Care

Bob

Mine leaves a dull grey coating I believe is burnt powder coating. And it leAds the second half of the barrel

[jcwit]

I had the same problem with PC being scraped off the bollit while using the Lee Pro Auto Disk powder measure. I solved it by screwing the Pro down a fraction of a turn thereby expanding the case slightly more. No longer have the problem. Also have no leading issues.

[robertbank]

I tried that with no improvement unfortunately.

Take Care

Bob

[jcwit]

You mean to say expanding the case larger than the diameter of the bullet it still scrapes the PC off the smaller bullet??????

[robertbank]

When you expand the case mouth you still have some friction tight fit. I pulled bullets after crimping and before and in both cases there was exposed lead on the driving bands.

When you place your bullet in the case mouth it doesn't fall to the bottom of the case does it? Pull one of your bullets and see if there is any exposed lead on the driving bands.

Bob

[gpidaho]

robertbank: I was happing problems with scraping off PC when seating boolits as an M-Die leaves a sharp edge on top of the case mouth. That's when I started doing the extra step of just kissing the cases with the Lee universal expander thus putting a rounded edge on top instead of the sharp one left by the M-Die. That solved the scrape problem for me. GP

[robertbank]

robertbank: I was happing problems with scraping off PC when seating boolits as an M-Die leaves a sharp edge on top of the case mouth. That's when I started doing the extra step of just kissing the cases with the Lee universal expander thus putting a rounded edge on top instead of the sharp one left by the M-Die. That solved the scrape problem for me. GP

My problem likely lies with the the time the bullets were at 400F. It has nothing to do with sharp edges etc. I have been reloading cast bullets in 9MM for a number of years using regular lube without incident. Clearly if you don't get the temp right you are going to have problems with PCing and with my 9MM I have managed that. I have decided to remelt the lot and do it again ensuring the temp/time is met. It is now more a personal challenge than a desire to eliminate minor leading or smoke etc.

Take Care

Bob

[gpidaho]

robertbank: May be the problem, but have to say I've never had a problem do to bake time. I always just preheat to 400, open the door of the convection oven and put them in for 20 mins. Has me puzzled. GP

[jcwit]

One more time, Have you tried them?

[robertbank]

Yes i have tried them. The barrel was leaded after 10 rounds.

I am going to start another batch tomorrow. I intend to give them an acetone wash, a thorough dry and see how it goes. As far as those I have now if the %$%$#$ coating rubs off the driving bands when you seat the bullets the bullets sure are not going out the barrel without leaving lead behind.

I intend to do 100 bullets. I will do the smash test, load a few in dummy rounds and then remove the bullets. If we are ok at that point I will load the remaining bullets and head to the range. Next week the sun comes up and warns up to the mid 60's and it will be then I move to HI-TEK. I have plenty of time to work on PCing on rainy days and it does rain up here...frequently.

Guys I am not calling anyone's new baby ugly here. The PCing will work. Just assume I know how to bell a case, apply a suitable taper crimp and have guns that don't have barrels that normally lead up. If I have screwed up with the curing process we will know after the next batch if the new batch works. PBTP powder should work and it will. I have spent to much time playing with it to quit now. Besides I got nothing else to do other than cut the grass, write a test for IDPA, plan our next shoot and plan for a SO class. Oh and decide whether or not to buy a new Tacoma now or wait until the 2016's arrive. My 1991 4Runner is dying.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

You mean to say expanding the case larger than the diameter of the bullet it still scrapes the PC off the smaller bullet??????

The properly belled case is rubbing the coating off; the case mouth does not scrape the coating off. The bullet has to friction fit. As indicated in my first reply if you expanded the case larger than the diameter of the bullet, the bullet would simply fall to the bottom of the case or as far as the powder would all it to.

Bob

[jcwit]

No it would not fall to the bottom of the case. The walls of a 9mm case get thicker as they reach the bottom of the case. Look at your cases closer!

Glad I stumbled right away into an easy way to do PC'ing without and hassle or leading. The future looks bright ahead!

[guncheese]

You are aware that Parkerizing involves dipping the part in Phosphoric acid right?

yes they ship them that way
maybe not anymore as im sure they got some heat for it
and yes they did send me a new barrel
if it wasnt for the other issues with the barrel i wouldnt have cared
the park isnt a issue as it will shoot it self shiny, we are not talking a Kart barrel here

[vernb]

So I'm looking at getting a custom powder funnel made for my Dillon. Now what diameter should I make it. I'm loading Lee 124 tl rn in two different guns. And if it won't work I'll buy another mold. So what generic size would u recommend

[gpidaho]

vernb, The M-Die I use for the Lee 124 tl measures .355 it's worked well in 9s for me. I powder coat the boolits then size .358, after seating and a pass through my Lee FCD (just pushed through the carbide ring, no more crimp dialed in) a pulled bollit measures .357 shot three hundred yesterday out of a Walther PPQ and cleaned the bore with three patches. GP

[Brett Ross]

I used to have leading problems in my P1 Walther ,this was TL before I started PCing. The P1 has a large bore and the boolit was being swaged down a bit, so bad situtioun made worse. My fix was the 38SW expander better but still leaded a bit, than i started PCing for a bit bigger boolit. I have not had any real issues since.