Retiring an old Hi-Power, might buy a SIG

[fatelk]

I think it's time to retire the old WWII Inglis. I've had it for a couple decades, haven't shot it a whole lot- maybe a couple thousand rounds over the years, mostly cast.

Working up a load with some new powder recently I noticed what I thought were signs of pressure but now I think is a sign of damage. I found an article online about older Hi Powers being damaged from +p ammo. I don't normally load +p but had some a few years ago that I inadvertantly seated too deep. Maybe that was it? Or perhaps the damage was before I got it. Either way, I can see that the barrel lug recesses in the slide appear a little pulled or deformed. It still functions and shoots fine, but I'm going to retire it to the safe for occasional use with mild loads.

i think I'll save up and buy something better for a replacement. I'm not a big fan of all the uber-tactical stuff nowadays. Nothing against them, just not my thing. I'm thinking I'd like to find something like an older, used SIG P226: great quality, solid design- a steel framed classic.

Any ideas or advice?

[sewerman68]

Try out a CZ. The 75 or the compact are really hard to beat.

[mattw]

Witnesses are pretty good shooters, have not owned the poly frame but have several of the steel frame.

[M-Tecs]

I I found an article online about older Hi Powers being damaged from +p ammo.

I am new to Hi-Powers. Would you be so kind as to post a link to the article?

[Multigunner]

Pre WW2 9mm auto loaders got an often unearned reputation for strength because most were at some point used almost exclusively with higher velocity SMG ammunition.
Unfortunately the majority of SMG specific ammunition acheived high velocity in the 8+ inch SMG barrels of the day by using slower burning powders, the short pistol barrel did not allow the load to reach full pressure before the bullet left the muzzle. The excess powder produced impressive muzzle blasts which led the shooter to believe these were super hot pistol loads.
This effect allowed the Finns to use 9X19 SMG ammo in their lower pressure 9mm Browning long chambered blowback operated pistols with no ill effects.
When STANAG 9mm was developed for increased penetration from pistols or the often short modern SMG designs the pressures were much higher to achieve the same effects.
The P-35 and the post WW2 aluminum frame version of the p-38 soon began to show premature wear and tear when STANAG was used, and the early US versions of the Berretta also developed cracked slides and other defects till the slide was beefed up.

An article on the beefed up .40 versions of the P-35 mentioned that many of the South American made 9mm P-35 pistol frames had failed in service due to use of the hotter modern ammunition.
I'd look for a more recent manufacture P-35.
The British had a plan to replace the frame of the thousands of P-35 pistols still in inventory, but I don't know if that panned out.

The P-35 is a great pistol, but like the P08 Luger you have to feed it right if you want it to last.

[fatelk]

I've had a couple of Tanfoglio Witness pistols over the years, got rid of them.

I'm sure they're good pistols but I didn't really care for either one I had, both older steel frame guns. I can't really say why but I just didn't really like them. Sometimes when you get a negative feeling about something it's hard to shake, even if it's not really substantive.

When I get time and at a real computer I can look again for the Hi-Power info and post a link. I Google searched for something like "Hi Power slide damage +p" and came up with enough results to look like its a fairly well known thing with older pistols. I was pretty sick to see damage on my favorite old gun. It was very well used when I bought it but I expect it was my fault.

Added: thanks for the info Multigunner- I just saw your post after posting. I'll still shoot the old Inglis occasionally, but I'll be certain to use light ammo. I should have mentioned, I do have another Hi Power, an FM. It's an inexpensive Argentine gun that I've shot plenty of the same ammo through, with never a sign of pressure and no sign of the slightest damage. I will still shoot it but I think I want something newer to replace the Inglis.

OK, OK. I don't really NEED to replace it. I have plenty of handguns, but mostly S&W revolvers and C&R pistols (and a Glock .40), but I'd like a good quality modern 9mm. Not too modern, mind you. :) A CZ75, newer P35, or even a Beretta would fill the bill, but my dad had a SIG P226 that I remember being impressed with, so the more I think about it the more I think that's what I want.

Any drawbacks with a SIG?

[Sig]

Any drawbacks with a SIG?
Yes........................They're expensive & you'll want more after your first.:bigsmyl2:

[historicfirearms]

The older german made sigs are great guns. My old p220 is one of my most accurate pistols and super reliable too. The new sigs may be as good, but I don't have any experience with them.

[Bigslug]

I'd skip anything with a DA-to-SA trigger personally. The heavy first shot concept originated to "idiot proof" the 1911 and the Luger, but the idiots kept shooting themselves anyway, and everyone else suddenly had to work a lot harder to hit what they were aiming at.

(BTW, older P226's are going to be aluminum-framed. The steel ones are a fairly recent thing)

CZ makes a single action only variant of the 75, that would get my vote among the double stacks - it's all steel and made the old fashioned way - but first choice would probably be the full-sized 9mm Springfield 1911.

The newer HP's have solved the +P issues. I love the balance, but find it to be bit of a wacky design, what with the force of your trigger pull starting down in the frame, getting transferred by pushrod up to the slide, getting transferred BACK down to the frame by a rocker bar, and then BACK up to the slide by the hammer. Strange. . .

[fatelk]

It's been a long time since I handled a SIG. I guess I mis-remembered it having a steel frame. Thinking back now I'm sure you're right. Maybe I need to go to a gun show or shop and handle a few different guns before deciding. I do like the old Hi-Power design, and I should give the CZ75 another chance, though I swore I'd never own another.

No hurry, it's going to take me a while to set aside enough money for what I want. Its crazy how expensive new stuff is nowadays. I'll be looking for a good used one. No way can I shell out $800 for a pistol, not even if I wanted to.

[MtGun44]

DA to SA is a PITA, had to learn a whole new manual of arms when I got a
P6 (P225). Not a bad gun, but the concept is not really my favorite type of
action.

[Petrol & Powder]

Bigslug beat me to it, the older SIG 226's ( the bulk of the 226's ever made ) will have an aluminum alloy frame.

The Big SIG is a fine pistol and will give good service but there's a LOT of other cool 9mm pistols in that class.

The CZ75 and it's variants are cool guns and offer a lot of value.

The Beretta 92 is an excellent gun and has a good grip. The grip is not quite the same as a Hi-power but it is one of the better double stack 9mm's. The barrel/slide locking system on the Beretta is similar to that of a Walther P-38. Parts and magazines are readily available.

I'm not sure what your criteria is but the field of 9mm double stack pistols is huge. Good Luck !

[fatelk]

Thanks everyone. My criteria for a new 9mm are a little subjective. It won't be for self defense, and I'm not into competition or tactical stuff. I just want a good quality full size double-stack 9mm that's reliable and reasonably accurate to shoot for fun.

Looking around, the CZ75 is a good value and I'll need to give them another look. I kind of wish I had jumped on one of those Beretta Italian police trade ins a few months ago. A used one with some character (cosmetic wear) is preferable from a price perspective. I might even consider a police trade in Glock. I just don't know at this point; I'll have to go handle a few and see what I think.

[retread]

For the money I think the Ruger SR9 is a real buy. I love mine. 17 round mags and a nice trigger. It is more accurate than I am for sure. Just MHO.

[Petrol & Powder]

Thanks everyone. My criteria for a new 9mm are a little subjective. It won't be for self defense, and I'm not into competition or tactical stuff. I just want a good quality full size double-stack 9mm that's reliable and reasonably accurate to shoot for fun.

Looking around, the CZ75 is a good value and I'll need to give them another look. I kind of wish I had jumped on one of those Beretta Italian police trade ins a few months ago. A used one with some character (cosmetic wear) is preferable from a price perspective. I might even consider a police trade in Glock. I just don't know at this point; I'll have to go handle a few and see what I think.
While a Glock 17 would fit your criteria of "good quality full sized double-stack 9mm that's reliable and reasonably accurate....", I'll be the first to admit they lack soul. As a self defense weapon or competition gun they are outstanding guns and I admire them as reliable and durable tools. The word "utilitarian" comes to mind.
The CZ packs a lot of value into a steel framed, well made 9mm pistol.
The Beretta 92 series is another excellent gun in that class and its widespread acceptance is a plus when seeking magazines and spare parts.
An old Walther P88 would be super cool but likely pricey. A H&K P7M13 is very unique but it will be uber expensive. (The P7M8 is a better gun IMHO but it is a single stack).

If we exclude the single action Browning Hi-power and the single stack designs such as the Luger, P-38, SIG 225, etc. ; then you end up in the realm of the 1980's era "wonder nines". Not a bad place to be. Lots of choices, lots of cool guns, good prices and some unique pistols.
My advice is to take your time and find a "cool" gun that you will want to shoot.

[scattershot]

CZ75 is a great pistol, and the way it's configured, you can carry it cocked and locked like your HiPower, or use the DA/SA trigger. In fact, it's so versatile you can carry/use it in any configuration you can dream up. The safety works in any configuration, too.

[seaboltm]

Of all the 9mms I have, here goes:

CZ75 (original, not the B) is hard to beat. Old ones made in Europe can be found in bad finish but excellent mechanical condition cheap. I paid $250 for mine and re-blued it.

Modern Hi-Powers will feed any 9mm round, but they are pricey.

Most accurate 9mm I have is the Sig 228, little brother to the 226 but virtually all 228's are German made.

Most utilitarian is the Glock 19, little brother to the 17. Goes bang every time, accurate enough.

Beretta 92FS: nothing wrong with it, but I have it more for nostalgia sake. My other 9's outperform it in all ways. BUT, if you shop around you can find a used one pretty cheap. Paid $325 for mine a couple of years ago and refinished it.

Khar PM9: very small pocket pistol. Awesome for concealed carry. This is what I carry almost daily. Accuracy? I ran many police qualification sessions with it, and it passed every time. Not the best range pistol for sure.

[osteodoc08]

136377136378
Yes........................They're expensive & you'll want more after your first.:bigsmyl2:

This right here.

I have a P226 (Exeter, NH) and while not a coveted W. German marked one, is still a phenomenal shooter. I have the tac ops model which has an extended 20 round mag. It wears a TLRs-1 light and is my HD gun.

The first photo is the first 40 rounds of ammo downrange at 10 or 15 yards, I dont remember. I know it was past the 7yd line but not past the 20 yard line. The second is with the TLRs-1 on it.

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't currently own a CZ 75 but I have in the past. They are exactly what others have claimed; accurate, durable, good values and well made. The only downside is the all steel construction makes it a fairly heavy pistol. Considering the OP's criteria I think the weight might actually be seen as a benefit.
The full size SIG 226 is a good pistol but like seaboltm, I leaned to the smaller 228 and eventually to the single stack 225. The 228 is essentially the size of a Glock 19. Big enough to hold onto and shoot well with high capacity but small enough that it can be easily concealed. I put the G19 and the 228 in the same class of concealable serious combat pistols.
I'll offer a counter view to seaboltm's on the Beretta 92 series. I have always found the Beretta to be a very capable full sized 9mm pistol. I've had several different Beretta's and my current 92 F will hold its own with any comparable pistol in its class. The barrel locking system on the Beretta is not the typical Browning tilting barrel arrangement but rather more like a Walther P-38. That same locking system that sets the Beretta apart from other pistols also makes the slide rather wide. The trade off for that big giant open top slide [giant ejection port]is extra width and top heavy construction. It wouldn't be my first choice for a CCW but again that doesn't seem to be the OP's need.
The DA/SA lock work of all the above listed pistols sort of goes with the territory of the "Wonder-Nines" of that era. I don't consider the DA/SA to be a negative for a gun used for fun.

[fatelk]

I went to a gun show today and handled a few different pistols. You guys that have mentioned the CZ75 have got me thinking. I handled one today and really liked it.

The ones I had in the past were a Witness 9mm compact, and then a Witness .40 compact. The trigger bar broke on the 9mm. They fixed it under warranty but I didn't trust it after that and eventually sold it to a friend who wanted it. I don't remember what I didn't like about the .40, but I eventually sold it also. The full size CZ 75B I looked at today felt better to me. I'm not an impulse buyer (exactly the opposite), so I'll continue to save my pennies before I buy anything.

CZ75 (original, not the B) is hard to beat.
Is the CZ75B not as good for some reason? I don't know the difference and don't want to buy something inferior.

The gun show itself was pathetic and prices were high. Probably the worst show I've been to in 15 years. I've also noticed a trend lately, especially with full sized pistols. Does everything have to have rails?? I understand if there's a practical need for them, but otherwise I think they're ugly. After looking around I realize that I really want something that's more of a classic looking pistol, no rails, lasers or plastic parts. I'm not going to carry it concealed or take it into combat. Looks like either a SIG, Beretta, or CZ should do fine.

[Petrol & Powder]

The big difference between the 75 and the 75B is the firing pin Block in the B models.
There are other differences but that's the major one.
I'm with you on the rail thing. Rails are useful for mounting lights and lasers but they turn a sleek gun into a clunky gun.
I almost always prefer older hardware to newer stuff. The good thing about the CZ-75 pistols is that they age well. If you take your time (and it sounds like you do) you can find some excellent pistols on the used market.
I'd keep your eye on sites such as Gunbroker. Even if you don't buy a gun off of a web based service it gives you a better idea of what's available.
The key to buying a used gun is to do your research FIRST, decide what you want, have the money and then WAIT until you find the exact gun you want.

[salvadore]

My son loves his Stoeger Couger, but it may have an alloy frame. It's a beautiful shooter and priced right.

[fatelk]

There are some trade-in surplus on gunbroker. Not pretty but I wonder if it's all cosmetic?

[Petrol & Powder]

What type of trade-in surplus? CZ-75's ?

If the price was right it would be hard to go wrong on an old CZ-75. They're pretty solid, straight forward, steel pistols. It wouldn't be difficult to re-finish one or have one refinished. You could purchase the pistol and shoot it for a awhile before refinishing it, or keep shooting it as is.

[fatelk]

Oops, forgot to paste the link: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480149602

It's a CZ 75B, and it's not real pretty. The seller seems to have a bunch of them, and they go for $320 to $350, plus $30 shipping. I have an FFL who does $20 transfers, so around $400 total. Is that ball-park reasonable, if it's mechanically good and not damaged or wore out? Seems like a lot for something in that condition, but it's been a while since I've bought anything and I know prices have gone up.

It's a funny thing about finish wear: If it's honest wear on a used gun it really doesn't bother me. As long as it wasn't terribly ugly I'd leave it as is.

[Lead Fred]

My Sig P220, puts CZs and Glocks to shame.

My bud sold it to me, tried for half a year to buy it back. Bought another one, for mine is going to the grave with me

I shoot 230gr RNPB out of it at 900fps, as accurate as ball ammo

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't know who uses those outside of the U.S. but the lanyard ring suggests some type of police/military issue. If I was seeking a 9mm just to play with, I'd take a chance on one of those.

[fatelk]

Just an update: I did pick up a used 75B. I really like the fit, feel, and balance. I haven't gotten great accuracy with it yet, but then again I'm not the very best shot and I haven't seriously sat down at the bench and played with it a lot yet.

Thanks again everyone.

[Frank46]

Sigs, some folks either love them or hate them. I love the two I have, one is a P239 in 40S&W and the other is a P6 in 9mm. Both accurate and the P6 outshoots my Barreta 92FS. Do not have any experience with any of the CZ pistols and for some funny reason local stores usually don't carry them in stock. Frank

[Petrol & Powder]

fatelk - I think that CZ75B will grow on you. They are solid pistols and offer a lot for the money.
Good Luck !