S&W 25-13 45 Colt

[RKJ]

Morning everyone. I was wondering if anyone has a S&W Model 25 in 45 Colt. I've got one that I'll be picking up in a month or so and would like to hear any pros/cons about them. The one I've got (in lay-away at my local LGS) is a 25-13 Mountain Gun model, it's got the lock and frame mounted firing pin but I found that those didn't bother me all that much. I'm curious about loads, and molds you would suggest (I like a SWC style bullet and have read (a little) about the RCBS SAA-270 but I wonder if it's not a little heavier than I'd like). I'd appreciate anything y'all would care to share and look forward to the info. Thanks, RKJ

[Ben]

The Lyman 452190 and the 452424 are all time classics in the 45 Colt. I lean a bit more into the 424'

Ben

[Ben]

The Lyman 454190 and the 452424 are all time classics in the 45 Colt. I lean a bit more into the 424'

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/001-50.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/0052.jpg

Ben

[Jupiter7]

Well the 45-270SAA bullet is a lengthened 454424(my fav too, Ben). It was originally designed for the SAA(duh!). Here's a good article with data:

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

[Dale53]

I have both the NOE Lyman 454424 (250 gr Keith) and a Mihec version of the RCBS SAA 270 (in both solid and hollow point). In my Ruger SS Bisley it is my "go to" bullet for the .45 Colt. However, in that relatively light Mountain gun I think I would also prefer the 454424. It's a fine bullet and works well for me. I use it in my 625-6 and 625-8 (.45 ACP) and drive it at 900+ fps. You can safely get a bit more out of it in the Mountain gun without recoil being too abusive.

I don't have a Mountain Gun but do have a .44 Special 4" which is actually about the same gun in .44 instead of .45. My "go to" load in that platform drives a 250 gr. Keith at about 950 and that is my choice for a very nice field load. A similar thing in the .45 Colt would NOT be a "bad thing"...

FWIW
Dale53

[runfiverun]

I'm more of a 424 fan too.
you may have to crimp over the front drive band to fit your cylinder.
no big deal, a lot of the data for that boolit has been developed that way.
I also like the 452664 it seats just a click over 1.620 oal in my cases.

[RKJ]

The Lyman 454190 and the 452424 are all time classics in the 45 Colt. I lean a bit more into the 424'

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/001-50.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/0052.jpg

Ben

Ben, I like that bullet. Does it come with HP pins or is it a solid? I thought it was a solid, but I've been known to be wrong before.

[RKJ]

I have both the NOE Lyman 454424 (250 gr Keith) and a Mihec version of the RCBS SAA 270 (in both solid and hollow point). In my Ruger SS Bisley it is my "go to" bullet for the .45 Colt. However, in that relatively light Mountain gun I think I would also prefer the 454424. It's a fine bullet and works well for me. I use it in my 625-6 and 625-8 (.45 ACP) and drive it at 900+ fps. You can safely get a bit more out of it in the Mountain gun without recoil being too abusive.

I don't have a Mountain Gun but do have a .44 Special 4" which is actually about the same gun in .44 instead of .45. My "go to" load in that platform drives a 250 gr. Keith at about 950 and that is my choice for a very nice field load. A similar thing in the .45 Colt would NOT be a "bad thing"...

FWIW
Dale53

Dale, right after I posted the questions, I found an article in AH from John Taffin. He was saying the same thing, that big ole bullet at 900-950 FPS would take care of anything in the lower 48. I'm thinking of using it mainly a trail gun when hunting and walking in the woods. I believe I'm pretty safe from anything 4 legged (or 2 for that matter) with it here in Missouri. :)

[High Desert Hunter]

I have the 25-13 Mt Gun, you will be pleased, mine has a great trigger, and is very accurate with the RCBS 45-270SAA over Unique or HS6, it also does well with the Lee 255 RNFP bullet. I have shot the big 325gr LFNGC bullets as well, but I don't have grizzly bears here in my neck of the woods. I waffled about buying mine until I talked to John Linebaugh and found that he carries a 4" Smith in 45 Colt. He did say it was capable of digesting heavy loads, but did suggest keeping the pressures below 28,000 CUP for day to day shooting and keep the cylinder to frame point lubed with motor oil. Only thing I have done to mine is rounded off the finger grooves, too much discomfort with peppy loads.

[Dale53]

RKJ;
You'll find "evangelists" for both .44 Special or .45 Colt. Frankly, at the same weight bullet at about the same velocity there is no animal I have met will recognize the difference. Your choice of the .45 Colt Mountain Gun for a trail gun will fill the bill admirably!

I have great affection for the 4" "N" frame in either caliber. I will tell you from experience, that either will do a FINE job on edible small game, too. I have taken grouse, cottontail rabbits, and snowshoe rabbits for the table without serious meat damage and you do NOT have to shoot them twice:bigsmyl2:. They fit John Taffin's description of a "Perfect Packing Pistol", too!

FWIW
Dale53

[DougGuy]

Just don't subject a fine S&W to Ruger Only loads. It won't be very fine very long. Not even sure I would want to go to Tier2 loads, but it would seem that the 21,000psi of the standard .45 ACP cartridge might be safe in the .45 Colt brass in this gun?

[RKJ]

I have the 25-13 Mt Gun, you will be pleased, mine has a great trigger, and is very accurate with the RCBS 45-270SAA over Unique or HS6, it also does well with the Lee 255 RNFP bullet. I have shot the big 325gr LFNGC bullets as well, but I don't have grizzly bears here in my neck of the woods. I waffled about buying mine until I talked to John Linebaugh and found that he carries a 4" Smith in 45 Colt. He did say it was capable of digesting heavy loads, but did suggest keeping the pressures below 28,000 CUP for day to day shooting and keep the cylinder to frame point lubed with motor oil. Only thing I have done to mine is rounded off the finger grooves, too much discomfort with peppy loads.

Everything I read in the magazines all rave about the RCBS 45-270 SAA, but I'm not sure I want that heavy of a bullet. I'll probably try the 250's, (either the Lyman 452424 or RCBS 45-250 KT) as I'm reading good things about both and then later on (if the boss will let me) get the 270. One can never have too many molds, can they? :)

[USSR]

I cast and shoot the Mihec version of the RCBS SAA 270 out of my S&W 25-5. Upper end loads I like are: 13.0gr HS-6 (John Linebaugh's load), 18.0gr of 2400, and 22.0gr of IMR4227. All these loads are in the 20k to 23k psi range and perfectly safe in the S&W N frame.

Don

[High Desert Hunter]

I have found the 45-270SAA bullet to be a rock solid performer, it is my go to 45 Colt bullet in my Rugers and the S&W. When I called and asked Mr. Linebaugh about the strength, he reminded me that the "N" frame is the same frame used for the 44 Magnum, just the holes in the cylinder were 20% larger, so a good rule was a 20% reduction in CUP, he did say that personally he uses a 250-280 grain bullet for 95% of his shooting, loaded to 1000-1100 fps, but when in grizzly country, he loads up the big 320s at 1150 fps. Given his knowledge base, I have no reason not to take him at his word. I know I have put less than 30 of the big bullets through mine, just too much recoil, plus I trust the 289gr SAA bullets at 1000 to 1100 fps for anything New Mexico has to offer up.

[dubber123]

Just don't subject a fine S&W to Ruger Only loads. It won't be very fine very long. Not even sure I would want to go to Tier2 loads, but it would seem that the 21,000psi of the standard .45 ACP cartridge might be safe in the .45 Colt brass in this gun?

Never owned an older 25, but have a Pre-Lock 625 Mountain Gun, and it has digested a lot of 25,000 Psi loads and is still as tight as when I got it. I keep it well lubed with Mobil-1 motor oil. I have the same gun in .44 Mag. and given equal boolit weights, sticky extraction when working up loads happens at almost exactly the same fps, owing to the greater efficiency of the larger bore.

I shot a lot of 320's at 1,150+ from mine. I am going to a lighter boolit, as that kind of loads aren't necessary for much of anything I will use it for, but it handles them fine. I believe Linebaughs heavy load in his 4" 25 is a 310 gr. at around 1,100 fps. using H-110, and is around 25,000 Psi.

[RKJ]

Thank you everyone. I like what I've read (granted it's not a lot as I'm just now really started studying on it) about the 270 mold/bullet but am still on the fence on whether it is too much for what I'll be doing with the gun. I've got a 6" 629 that I could use for hunting the Whitetails around here so don't really need it for that (but I'm not ruling it out either). I've been using 10.5 grains of Unique behind the 429421 in the 44 and like that. I'm wanting to try the 1000 fps range and see if I like that and if not drop it down. I'm looking forward to getting it and working up loads for it, as I enjoy that as much as the shooting.

Dubber123, I just started using Mobil 1 on my guns and really like it. It's not as thick as grease but seems to stay put well. I'm using 20-50 (left over from my motorcycles oil change) so pretty thick but my HP's and 1911's slides feels like they're on bearings after using it.

[DougGuy]

I've been using 10.5 grains of Unique behind the 429421 in the 44 and like that.

^^^^ This, is a dangerous load. Alliant lists 7.0gr Unique for this cast LSWC boolit, and you are WELL BEYOND their recommendation.

Unique, in a .45 Colt loading tops out around 9.0gr and at 10.0gr can become very spiky and unpredictable. This is NOT a powder to use for magnum or even near magnum velocities in a handgun cartridge. There are much better and MUCH SAFER choices than that much Unique in a .44 Magnum case!

[High Desert Hunter]

RKJ, most of the load data I use lists 9.5 grains of Unique under the 429421, and that is the load I've used for years, I use the same load in my 45 Colt with the SAA SWC, in both cases it is good for the 1000-1100fps range. For general plinking I tend to use 8.5 in both cases. I have used a lot of Unique over the years, in everything from my 32-20to my 45/70, it gives excellent results in my 375 Ruger with cast. My favorite load with the 429421 in 44 Mag cases is 20 grains of 2400 which duplicates Elmer Keith's heavy 44spl load in my Super Blackhawk.

[USSR]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by RKJ http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3207850#post3207850)
I've been using 10.5 grains of Unique behind the 429421 in the 44 and like that.


^^^^ This, is a dangerous load. Alliant lists 7.0gr Unique for this cast LSWC boolit, and you are WELL BEYOND their recommendation.


Hmm, something wrong here. Lyman 49th Edition lists a starting load of 9.8gr and a Max of 13.0gr of Unique with that bullet.

Don

[dubber123]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by RKJ http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3207850#post3207850)
I've been using 10.5 grains of Unique behind the 429421 in the 44 and like that.




Hmm, something wrong here. Lyman 49th Edition lists a starting load of 9.8gr and a Max of 13.0gr of Unique with that bullet.

Don

Many manuals list lower charge weights with cast to preclude leading, not because the pressures are unsafe.

[osteodoc08]

I had one and found it to be a very pleasant gun to carry afield. You can load it to "level 2" loadings and there is good reading to be had by a simple search. I believe it was Linebaugh who penned the article but it's been a while and may be wrong. I think you could have chosen much worse and it will be a fine addition to your home.

[Lloyd Smale]

I had one and it did hands down best with the 255swc rcbs mold. Only problem is theres three versions of that bullet and I don't know what there making now.

[NorthMoccasin]

I have a 25-13 Mt Gun as well. Mine likes the 452490gc over 15.4 2400 (257g) and the 452460 (201g) over 8.6 231. I shoot much more with the 201g swc and feel it will do anything I need done, and is more pleasant to shoot . Ballistics are close to a 44 wcf in a rifle. Fantastic gun, nice trigger, and it just feels right in the hand!

[RKJ]

I told my wife I'm picking it up this weekend (if I can get her to stop her remodeling, we're putting in new doors and counter tops and she thinks they are more important than my gun buying, but let's see those counter-tops stop a Zombie hoard) :) Seriously, I'm looking forward to it. I'm leaning towards loading it with Unique as I just like that powder.

[tygar]

Mine is a 25-2 6.5", it is very big bore .454+ so need large bullets to be accurate. Get best out of 255s & 230 FN + Unique.

Also a 2nd Gen Colt. Cant really say what load to use as have only put some light loads thru it.

[44MAG#1]

[COLOR=#333333][I]"^^^^ This, is a dangerous load. Alliant lists 7.0gr Unique for this cast LSWC boolit, and you are WELL BEYOND their recommendation."

Thats funny on page 948 of Speers latest manual they list 11 gr Unique with their 250 Keith for the 44 Mag.

[MtGun44]

10 gr of Unique in a .45 Colt is dangerous? Sorry, have to totally
disagree with this. Just not right. Even Alliant says 9.5 is OK, and
you know that they are loading for the oldest SAA out there. A new
S&W would be fine with 10, probably with 10.5, too.

I use 10 of Unique as a standard everyday load in .44 Mag, which has
lower case volume, this is not anywhere near a max pressure load.
Guns are essentially the same, although no doubt cyl walls are a bit
thinner with .45 than .44.

Not where I can access any of my older loading manuals right now, but I think
they list well above 10 in .45 Colt as a normal load, but that needs to
be verified. At least one poster above reports 13 gr is OK according
to Lyman 49th edition, which matches my memory.

[MT Gianni]

One of the reasons people get confused is when 44 Mag loads are introduced into 45 Colt or 44 Special conversations.

[skeettx]

My go to load for my Ruger 45 Blackhawk 4 5/8th is 10 grains of Unique and the 255 Keith bullet.
Nice load
Mike

[High Desert Hunter]

I will cut some slack, I would rather see someone err on the side of caution that advise the other directions. My Unique loads are ones that have worked for better than 20 years in MY guns, it is always advised that you start low and work your way up.

[skeettx]

A good read is the Handloader Magazine April 2015 No 295

".45 Colt Revolver Strength" by Dave Scovill

Mike

[Silver Jack Hammer]

We got off track with this .45 Colt thread when RKJ posted he loads 10.5 gr Unique in his 629 and DougGuy posted 7.0 gr as a max load for this boolit. DougGuy, I'm sure you were on the .44 Special page. I wish I could say I've never been on the wrong page of the loading manual before, but I can't say that.

My primary .45 Colt load is 8.5 gr of Unique with a 454190 and it is not a hot load, I shoot it a lot in the Colt SAA 3rd gens. My primary .44 Mag load is the RCBS 44-250-K with 10 gr of Unique and this is a down loaded plinking load very pleasant to shoot. In the .44 Special 240 gr 429667 my load of 7.0 gr of Unique clocks at 893 fps out of a 4 3/4" Colt SAA. 7.5 gr of Unique gives 951 fps. This 7.5 gr load fells light when I shoot it but I don't use it much and load Blue Dot when I want top velocity in the .44 Special. My everyday .44 Special load with Unique is 6.5 gr in a 240 gr boolit which clocks at just under 800 fps with the powder positioned in the front of the case near the boolit and just over 800 fps with the powder positioned near the primer. Unique gives me a range of 60 fps difference at this 6.5 gr pressure level with a standard primer but it still shoots very accurately. Unique still gives me over 100 fps variation with 7.5 gr in the .44 Special but shoots accurately enough for my fixed sighted Colt's.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Out of my Ruger BH 10.5 gr of Unique in the .45 Colt with a 255 gr SWC lead the chronograph read 1025 fps with very little variation in velocity between shots.

[RKJ]

Currently the only 45 Colt at the house is a BH Convertable 5.5" bbl.
Just Like the 7.5 to 9 gr Unqiue loads under the 255gr accurate and comfortable. Just my thoughts and 2 cents.

But we do need some Picture of that 25-13 once you get it LOL

Hoping to pick it up this weekend. I'll definitely post some pics of it once I get it home. I'm looking forward to it, I think it's going to be a lot of fun. I looked at some of my books the other night and find (IIRC) 9.-9.5 for the standard load of Unique. It's going to be a woods/range gun so it doesn't have to be a fire breather, but I would like to get 1000 fps (just a goal) as long as it doesn't beat me or the gun up.

[dubber123]

10.5 Grs. of Unique with a 265 WFN runs just under 1,100 fps. from my 4" Mountain Gun.

[Lloyd Smale]

I had one. Nice gun but mine was finiky. It didn't shoot any swc under 2 inch. What I finally settled on was a 280 grain gas check lfn. that bullet cast a 18bhn with 8.8 grains of herco was the load. That was really the only bullet (I never tried anything heavier) that shot well. The 275 rcbs that everyone raves about absolutely sprayed out of my gun. Im talking a 4 inch groups.

[RKJ]

10.5 Grs. of Unique with a 265 WFN runs just under 1,100 fps. from my 4" Mountain Gun.

I'd like to reach 1000 FPS and be able to maintain it (It's just a number that I want to reach) I know that any animal won't know the difference in 950 over 1000 but I'd like that number. I don't want to beat up the gun (or me for that matter) I just want to hit the "ton". It's not a number set in stone for me but I figure that Smith is tougher than some folks give it credit for.

Lloyd, I'm surprised that RCBS SWC didn't shoot for you as like you said everyone raves about it. I was backpedaling about it, thinking I might go ahead and get it, but I do think it's too heavy for what I'm wanting to do with the gun. I hope this one will shoot a 250 SWC for me ok, but the way I shoot if I get 2" groups @ 25 yards I'll be tickled. :)

I do want to thank everyone for the help, I'm a newbie when it comes to this caliber and appreciate all the help.

[NorthMoccasin]

Loyd, My 25-13 HATED the RCBS 275g as well. I just could not get it to shoot. 4" to 5" at 25 yd was par for the course.

[dubber123]

A 250 at 1,000 Fps. is easy to do, and the gun will last forever. Unique won't get you max speeds, but it will hit your goal, and be cheap to shoot. I ran a lot of 320's faster than your goal through mine, and it is still tight and accurate.

[RKJ]

A 250 at 1,000 Fps. is easy to do, and the gun will last forever. Unique won't get you max speeds, but it will hit your goal, and be cheap to shoot. I ran a lot of 320's faster than your goal through mine, and it is still tight and accurate.

Good. I'm hoping I can reach it without any problems. Thanks

[T45LC]

I must be old, I reload for my S&W 25-5 6" barrel, ( still have the original box and wax wrapping paper, warranty forms ). My 1977 Hornady Handbook/ manual page 363 shows a max load of 8.8 grs Unique for a 250gr hollow point. No cast bullets listed in that manual for the 45LC., at that time. A load that I used "1984 vintage " was Lyman #454424 255gr SWC with 10.0 grs Unique. This load was from an article Loads for the 45 Colt by John Wooters, 1984 G&A Handgun Annual page 45. ( I still have the magazine ). I have used the same Lyman #454424 with 18.5 grs of 2400 , and old Elmer Keith load, with no problems, and the Oregon Trail 255 gr SWC keith style boolit. 17 grs of 2400 gave about 850fps with the old Speer 250gr SWC. Last my more modern Lyman 47th Edition Handbook page 455, shows # 454424 255gr SWC and 10.2 grs of Unique for 1162 fps ( out of a 10" Thompson contender barrel ). My more modern civil liability manuals ( 2 ) show lower, safe loads for Unique Powder and separate loads levels for the 25.5 6" barrel, Contender 10" barrel and Ruger Blackhawk and original Ruger Vaquero. Don't tell anyone but I've used 18.5 grs 2400 in my original Vaquero and love it. Unique gives great accuracy with moderate loads.

[RKJ]

Well, it came home today. Sorry no pics yet, my Grandsons are staying the night and they wanted to play with Pa. :)

[RKJ]

An update to the thread. I took pics with my phone but it won't connect to my PC. It will charge but not show up as a drive. I'll see if I can get my wife's Iphone and try it again. I've got a caliber conversion coming from Dillon, and 200 Starline brass from JeffHolt (The MO should be there to you tomorrow, Jeff). I got a Saeco 250 Grain SWC 4 cav mold from Monge (which drops some very nice bullets), and a Desantis holster from Midway (which fits it like a glove and looks very nice also). I haven't gotten to shoot it yet and that is getting to me. I'm hoping to shoot it tomorrow and to load up some hand loads next week.

[skeettx]

One trick we have used on these type of phones is to email yourself the picture and then save it to your computer
Mike

[Snow ninja]

Been looking for a mountain gun for years, but alas, none around here... Glad you got yours.

[RKJ]

One trick we have used on these type of phones is to email yourself the picture and then save it to your computer
Mike That's a good idea, I'll try that. Thanks for the tip, mike.


Been looking for a mountain gun for years, but alas, none around here... Glad you got yours. Snow, I happened onto this one, I went to my LGS looking for some 22 Mags for my FIL and saw it in the case. I fell in love with a 25-5 (I believe it was) about 35 years ago after I saw one at the local Montgomery Wards. It was a 6" and the bluing went on forever. This one is just as pretty (even with a lock) :)

[JWNathan]

In my 625 Mountain gun I did need to install a longer firing pin. I was getting light strikes in DA on CCI primers. Think I went with the Cylinder and Slide pin. My 627 was the same way. The MIM parts and the lock (easily removable) don't bother me but buying an expensive gun and having it not go bang every time was too much.
-Jesse