xmp5744 powder

[hornsurgeon]

anyone here have any experience with accurate xmp 5744 with cast in a bottleneck case? good/bad comments? compared to 4198/other?

[Vly]

XMP-5744 is fantastic cast boolit powder. I've used it for the past 10 years in 308 Win., 30-06, 7.5 Swiss, and 8mm Mauser. Very consistent velocities and excellent accuracy. When my current stash of surplus SR-4759 runs out and with no more available, the 5744 will be picking up that role as well.

Try it , you will like it.

[Bob A]

[QUOTE=Vly; When my current stash of surplus SR-4759 runs out and with no more available, the 5744 will be picking up that role as well.

[/QUOTE]

Vly,
Is SR-4759 going out of production? I just bought a pound last week. Should I go back to my local shop and clean them out? They don't carry Accurate, so SR5749 is my best choice.

Bob A

[Vly]

Hey Bob - I think you can relax - I was referring to "surplus" SR-4759, not the commercial variety. A few years ago the surplus military powder vendors were selling this stuff cheap and it works very well. Burning rate is very close to commercial but the price was better.

Welcome to the site, by the way.

[Harry O]

I originally got some 5744 for old BP cases (what Trail Boss is sold for now). At those pressures (under 20,000psi), it does not burn well. By that I mean there are chunks of powder left in the case, cylinder, and barrel after shooting. Magnum primers and a heavy crimp did not improve things. Accuracy was so-so. I quit using it for this.

Later I tried it in a medium 30-40 load with cast boolits. The pressure was higher and the powder behaved much better. Much better burning (but still not totally clean) and better accuracy, too. If you are going to get into the 25,000psi or higher range, go ahead and use it.

[Nueces]

There's an energetic couple of threads over on Leverguns concerning a member's report of dangerous pressure excursions with 5744 in large bore rifles (45-90, etc):

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?t=4653

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?t=4681

I have nearly 20 pounds of it and have been using it happily. Would like to hear any comments from you guys, especially if anyone has heard independently of any such difficulties.

Mark

[Maven]

Like my friend Vly, I've used several pounds of XMP 5744 in my rifles (.243Win. to .45-70) with complete satisfaction. I.e., accuracy is excellent and velocity is extremely consistent (lower standard deviations than IMR 4198 for example). If price/pound wasn't a factor, 5744 would be my favorite cast bullet powder.

[405]

Read through the levergunscommunity threads. Don't know what to make of all that. Kind of unsettling for sure!

I've loaded it in several old calibers from 32-40 through 45-70. It has always performed just as advertised... very predictable, uniform pressure increases as the loads were increased. Would use it much more save its bad habit of leaving a bunch of unburned kernels in the action or case.

[Lead melter]

Another plus for the 5744 is that it seems to be positio irrelevant. Plus requires no filler with the small charges. It might even work better without fillers.

[44man]

I tried it in my 45-70 revolver and velocity was VERY slow. The bench top was full of unburned powder after I was done shooting. Seems like 1/4 of each charge fell out of the brass and barrel.
I have to wonder if the powder is very susceptible to SEE? Maybe powder re-igniting after the boolit is down the bore!
It will not go in my Browning after reading this, expensive fertilizer! [smilie=1:

[wiljen]

I had the same experience as 44Man in my 45-70 and 357 Maximum with 5744 (both in barrels of 14 inch length). Lots of unburnt garbage, low velocity, poor SD and ES. I now use it only for bottlenecked rifle rounds where it seems to do pretty well.

[felix]

SEE is not likely in any kind of pistol, revolver or auto. The revolter has the gap, the auto has a moving action. Any blowups with these devices would be a double charge in all likelyhood. However, 2.7 grains of BE has been known to take apart a model 52. It occured during a match in the Hartford CT pistol league when I was participating. The load was altered to 2.9 grains from that time on. I have not heard of any repeat performance from any buddies in that league. Besides, 5744 would be what I would say to be very safe from any kind of SEE because of its case filling attribute, especially with 20 percent of nitroglycerin which would keep the "flame" going once started. The powder was altered from 10 percent to 20 percent nitro about 10 years or more ago to further help prevent such an occurance. Several years before that the formulas of BE and 700X were changed from 25 percent to 30 percent nitroglycerin, and that probably was an incentive to modify some other "brands" such as those typically loaded "down" in application. ... felix

[MT Gianni]

SEE is not likely in any kind of pistol, revolver or auto. The revolter has the gap, the auto has a moving action. Any blowups with these devices would be a double charge in all likelyhood. However, 2.7 grains of BE has been known to take apart a model 52. It occured during a match in the Hartford CT pistol league when I was participating. The load was altered to 2.9 grains from that time on. I have not heard of any repeat performance from any buddies in that league. Besides, 5744 would be what I would say to be very safe from any kind of SEE because of its case filling attribute, especially with 20 percent of nitroglycerin which would keep the "flame" going once started. The powder was altered from 10 percent to 20 percent nitro about 10 years or more ago to further help prevent such an occurance. Several years before that the formulas of BE and 700X were changed from 25 percent to 30 percent nitroglycerin, and that probably was an incentive to modify some other "brands" such as those typically loaded "down" in application. ... felix

Felix, I still shoot 2.7 occasionally. Are they sure it was the load or was it too deeply seated? Gianni

[felix]

Probably not seated too deep because of the gun type being used. The person loading the clip would have noticed a badly seated boolit. That job was done by all members at a table before the match. All the rounds came from a "community" barrel, loaded by the same machines (star) for years. Nothing but 52's were used, and 90 percent of the guns were fitted by the "resident" guru to shoot that load exactly. The range where this occured was the Colt range, in a seperate building, on the factory property in Hartford. ... felix

[44man]

Felix, I don't worry about it in my revolver but I do worry about my BPCR.
I and also my friend had SEE events with the 6.5 X 55 using 46 gr's of 4831. Pretty much a case full. Both of our primer pockets were huge and I never found my primer. Had to beat the bolts open with a mallet. Each load was measured on a scale. I increased the charge and had no more trouble but accuracy went south. I switched to Varget.
I had wild pressure excursions with both 4198's in the revolver going from 1500 to 1800 fps and getting one hard stuck case out of 5 in a cylinder full. SR 4759 cured that and is the most accurate powder I found. Believe me, I tried every powder ever listed in the gun. 4227 REALLY sucks for accuracy. 4759 will keep every shot on steel at 500 meters, burns clean and gives me high velocity, low pressure.
To compare it with 5744 is silly.
I shot some of my 4759 revolver loads from an original trapdoor and had one hole groups at 50 yd's. Trouble was, they hit too low on the target. Changed to a 500 gr Rapine .460 boolit and 3031, got great accuracy in the center of the bullseye.
Some powders are just not worth fooling with. Lil'Gun will melt a .357, 4227 will over pressure a .44 even with the lighter loads and on and on. When any powder gives me trouble, it is retired and I refuse to work with it again IN THAT CALIBER.
Too many powders are caliber and case specific, to use the powder in all guns can cause trouble.
I get the jitters when someone here says they use a powder in a certain caliber and gun that has caused me grief, then they recommend it to others.
I have to go along with those that say they have a big problem with a powder in a caliber. Why fool with it? :confused: I don't need to prove I am smarter! [smilie=1:

[Larry Gibson]

Felix, I still shoot 2.7 occasionally. Are they sure it was the load or was it too deeply seated? Gianni

The 2.7 gr Bullseye load being dangerous and blowing up guns was debunked many years ago. It was found to be a double or triple charge of powder and/or a bullet seated to deep. I have the AR article that give's the test results. This situation was caused by a couple progressive reloaders that would not automatically advance if the handle was not moved far enough but would dump powder when the handle was move a little. I believe the old C-H progressive press was the real offender here but Star loaders would build up residue in the seater and some bullets would be seated too deeply also. I'm not sure if the Star loaders could double charge a case.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

44man

What wieght bullet was that with the 6.5x55? Was it a J bullet?

Larry Gibson

[xtimberman]

I believe that 5744 is the most-flexible gunpowder introduced to shooters in many many years. It's not sensitive to position in the case and can be used with cast bullets in cases from .22 Hornet to .50-140.

It can be a great high-performance powder for .44 Mag. and the like.

IMO, 5744 and SR-4759 are THE two best gunpowders for developing safe smokeless loads for certain BP cartridges and late 19th century smokeless rounds.

xtm

[fourarmed]

I chronoed some loads using 5744 in a .45-110 Sharps replica. Without dacron I got outstanding accuracy and very low velocity spreads, even though the charge filled the case less than halfway to the base of the bullet. With dacron, results were much worse in both categories. Taught me not to assume anything.

[Scrounger]

Inconsistent velocity readings usually are the result of pressure being too low, just keep upping the powder charge until it's consistent, and there most likely won't be any unburned powder, either. Ball powder is stubborn; it likes a case full or almost full to work right. It will give you problems if the load is too low to produce enough pressure to burn well. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to like compressed loads. If you want a low velocity load, don't use slow powders like 5744, or H110, or WC820, use a faster powder. That's why they make so many different powders.

[1Shirt]

Wish I had a large quantity of 5744 and 4759. A couple of bath tubs would be a great start. Both great in most that I load for, but I would give the edge to 5744 in most of my loads. Have even had great luck with 5744 in my 22-250.
lShirt!:coffee:

[44man]

Larry, it was the 140 gr Hornady bullet. I had shot hundreds of these and also the 129 gr Hornady for years until it happened. Once is enough! I attribute it to the long freebore.
In my revolver I was not looking for low velocity and used the top loads listed for 5744. But the 10" barrel is not good for it. I do not fool with pipsqueek loads unless I want to plink with my .44 or .45 and then I go to Unique or 231.
I have almost every powder made and to tell the truth, with all of the different AA powders I have, I never found accuracy with any of them in any of the rifles that I had. The closest was 3100 that came close to equalling 4350 or 4831 but never shot better even over max.

[Uncle R.]

Some powders are just not worth fooling with. Lil'Gun will melt a .357, 4227 will over pressure a .44 even with the lighter loads and on and on. When any powder gives me trouble, it is retired and I refuse to work with it again IN THAT CALIBER.


44Man - I agree with your basic premise - I've had a few experiences with using powders that were dangerously quirky in "book" applications and I've long since decided to avoid them and save myself the aggravation. One was 800X in the 10 gauge - one was the old W-W 785 in the .25-06 and one (surprisingly) was H335 in the .223 which got awfully peaky at full loads and summer temperatures.
Anyway - I have a question for you about 4227. Over pressure a .44? I always thought that 4227 was supposed to be "stupid proof" in a .44 mag - that you couldn't fit enough in the case to cause trouble. Can you elaborate?
Thanks:
Uncle R.

[44man]

I started shooting IHMSA with both 4227's. I had worked up loads by shooting 200 meters slowly and walking a lot. I had great accuracy.
At the shoots I started to have trouble as the gun got hot. Primers were really getting flat! The worst was that the point of impact would get lower as I worked the targets. First shot would be centered, the next lower, next lower still until I was way down in the dirt. At the 200 meter line I kept adding clicks and by the time I shot at the last ram I was 16 clicks over normal and hit a good 50 yd's short.
I was using 23 gr's with a 240 gr bullet so I dropped to 21 gr's. Same thing and primers were dead flat at the end targets. I confirmed that the velocity and pressure was climbing out of sight with the chronograph once the gun got hot.
I watched other guys using 25 gr's of 4227 in the .44 and never seen any of them hit very many targets, just a lot of cussing! [smilie=1:
If shot slow with a lot of time between shots or in cold weather, the powder shot good. It also did NOT do this in the .357 Maximum. For some calibers it is a great powder but it stays out of my .44 and .45. If I still had the max, it would be the only powder I would use in it.
I switched to 296 and the next shoot was Ohio State which I won with 79 out of 80. I shot many, many 39's out of 40 with 296 out of my SBH. Seems as if there was always a target get away from me, a ram that would not fall or a turkey that would spin and not fall. Then a plain out and out miss! :roll: The very worst was to miss the first chicken then clean the rest. I can still see those chickens jumping up and down laughing! :mrgreen:
So, like 5744, 4227 has it's place and applications.
Cbrick, ever miss the first chicken? :Fire:

[Leftoverdj]

Back when 5744 was new on the surplus market, I bought a 32 pound case for about the current price of a single pound. Shot it up with cast bullets in about everything imaginable. Never had any problems. Did very well in a 22" .357 Max with cast running around 212 grains.

To be fair, I don't recall using it in light-for-cast loads. Worked great in smaller bottlenecked cartridges, .25-20, 7.62x39, etc. Did pretty good in a whole slew of military junk at about 1800 fps.

[Scrounger]

My mind boggles at the thought of 32 pounds of that at less than $20.

[Leftoverdj]

My mind boggles at the thought of 32 pounds of that at less than $20.

Best I recall, it was $25 for the case. Don't recall whether that included shipping or not, but it was pre HAZmat days so shipping would not have been much. Single pound is running $23-$24 locally. Reason it was so cheap was that no one had figgered out what to do with it, and there were not nearly as many casters.

[hornsurgeon]

so, i guess getting back to my question, in a larger case like a 35 whelen or 30-06, what would be your powder of choice for cast boolits? on the other end, what about the 22 hornet?

[softpoint]

Wish I had a large quantity of 5744 and 4759. A couple of bath tubs would be a great start. Both great in most that I load for, but I would give the edge to 5744 in most of my loads. Have even had great luck with 5744 in my 22-250.
lShirt!:coffee:

Second that! Those are my two most used cast bullet powders. With the 5744, it does leave the inside of your barrel looking like a rained out trash fire, but it works good, and cleans up easily. And I'm going to get another keg of 4759 this weekend if it's in stock.

[Shiloh]

I have a little 5744 that I used with excellent results in several rifles. I have an adequate supply for now of SR 4759 clone. When that is gone, the 5744 will hopefully fill the void. I suppose I must appreciate that I used surplus pull down powder for most of my reloading tenure. To bad that the days of surplus powder are in the twilight of there availability.

Shiloh :castmine:

[TCLouis]

emailed me and said he was stuck with a jug of 5744 and did not know anyone that would pay 60 buck for it. Luckily he had found someone to take the other two he had for that price . . .
My disappointment you ask . . I was disappointed that I did not get all three.

Three jusgs of 5744 and the 4759 I have may well carry me to the later years of my shooting.

Did I mention that the Rolling Block (45-70 of course) Loves 5744 and the 86 tolerates it pretty dang good!

[shotman]

it has worked good for me in a 338-06 just DONT leave in a polycarboate powder measure will set up and eat the plastic rick

[xtimberman]

My mind is stuck on a couple of bathtubs full of gunpowder.....and the unstable preteen pyromaniac living down the street.


xtm

[Boomer Mikey]

I started shooting IHMSA with both 4227's. I had worked up loads by shooting 200 meters slowly and walking a lot. I had great accuracy.
At the shoots I started to have trouble as the gun got hot. Primers were really getting flat! The worst was that the point of impact would get lower as I worked the targets. First shot would be centered, the next lower, next lower still until I was way down in the dirt. At the 200 meter line I kept adding clicks and by the time I shot at the last ram I was 16 clicks over normal and hit a good 50 yd's short. :roll: The very worst was to miss the first chicken then clean the rest. I can still see those chickens jumping up and down laughing! :mrgreen:
So, like 5744, 4227 has it's place and applications.
Cbrick, ever miss the first chicken? :Fire:


Been there and done that:

H110 solved my issues with H4227 but that was before the Extreme series formulation. I still use H4227 but only for full power plinking loads... I still have about 20 pounds left to burn up.

Ever forget to bring your sight setting back down to chicken settings and miss your first chicken with your unlimited gun - then miss the four gun match aggregate by one shot?

Boomer :Fire:

[44man]

Yep! :???: When I would miss the first chicken with my XP, it was always because I didn't have a chance to foul a clean bore. Darn clean barrel always missed the first shot. I quit cleaning the thing.

[mstarling]

5744 is great for cast bullets in necked rifle cases. Have used it in .308, 9,3x74R, 9,3x62, .375H&H, .416 Rigby, .458 AR, and .470 NE.

Generally delivers relatively low velocities (e.g. 45 grains of 5744 gives 500 gr cast slug at 1600-1700 fps in .470 NE) at low pressures that make good practice loads whereas 2150-2250 fps in this caliber is a bit exciting to shoot a lot.