S & W L Frame 44 mag

[Johnch]

What are your thoughts ?

It is a 5 shot with a 5" barrel
Wish it had a full underlug

I was thinking of it for a woods walking carry pistol
With a 200 to maybe 240 gr boolit at up to 1000 FPS

That would work for any for the small vermin to the larger ones with 2 legs

John

[Mk42gunner]

I think with loads like you are considering, it would be okay. With full house .44 Magnums I think it would be too much of a good thing.

Robert

[osteodoc08]

It's the one 44 that has interested me enough to get into that caliber. Haven't bought yet, maybe one day.

[Petrol & Powder]

The L-frame 44 magnum is an interesting concept but not one that I'm enamored with. When it comes to double action revolvers, the 44 magnum has just about killed off the 44 Special. This is a shame because the 44 Special has a lot to offer, particularly for a handloader.
I haven't shot one of the L-frame 44 mags but I've examined them. Given responsible loads I believe it will be OK, time will tell.
Given the loads the OP suggested I think it would be fine. I agree with Mk42gunner that a steady diet of full magnum loads might be too much of a good thing.
I have a 4" 629 and I decided to confine it to magnum length brass only but less than 5% of my shooting is with full magnum loads. The "Skeeter type" warm 44 Special (or its equivalent in a magnum casing) will do almost everything a 44 magnum is called upon to perform.
The 240-250 gr. SWC at 900-1000 fps is a VERY versatile load and that L-frame would probably thrive on that warmish 44 Special type load.

Now if Ruger would build a 5 shot 44 Special on the GP100 platform...............that would be a cool combination.

[C.F.Plinker]

Is the window in the L frame long enough to accept a 44 Magnum cylinder

[Gus Youmans]

Plinker,

The S&W Model 69 L frame is a 44 magnum, so I guess the L frame is long enough to accept a 44 Magnum cylinder. However, I suspect that most of the owners will shoot 44 Special equivalent loads in them because of the relatively light weight.

Gus Youmans

[EMC45]

Handled one at BPS a while ago. My thoughts were like yours....200-240gr. cast over slow powder and stay with it. 800-1000 FPS and it would hum nicely, and kill well. If I found one for cheap it would be mine.

[C.F.Plinker]

Plinker,

The S&W Model 69 L frame is a 44 magnum, so I guess the L frame is long enough to accept a 44 Magnum cylinder. However, I suspect that most of the owners will shoot 44 Special equivalent loads in them because of the relatively light weight.

Gus Youmans

Thank you for that information.

[WARD O]

Read some of the threads on the S&W 329 - now there is a light weight magnum. I think it is one of the best 44 specials ever made and it has the option of using magnums when desired. The L frame M69 looks interesting but I too prefer the full lug barrel. I have not yet had the chance to try shooting the L frame 44 but would like to...

ward

[Paul105]

I for one, say go for it.


I have two M69s (they have 4 ¼” half lug barrels). Both were Purchased early in 2014 and equipped with the S&W Hogue 500 grips. I have fired 1,570 rnds thru one gun, 930 of which were either Fed Factory 240gr .44 Mags (1,215 actual chrono) or 265gr SWCGCs Deep Seated over 17.5gr A2400 (1,140 fps actual chron). I have 3,880 rnds thru gun #2 (1,600 of those were mid to full .44 mag level loads). Both guns are as tight as they were when new and both have zero end shake. I’ve pretty much settled on two loads 240 CSWCBB w/6.7gr HP38 (chromed at 880 fps) and 265gr SWCGC w/17.5gr A2400 (chromed at 1,140 fps) both deep seated and crimped over front dr band, in .44 Mag cases and lit by WLR or CCI/Fed Standard Large Pistol Primers. I REALLY like these L-Framed .44 Mags.

Early on, I took the M69, a 329, and a 629 Mtn Gun to the range one afternoon. Ammo was the aforementioned Federal Factory .44 Mag 240gr JHP (No. 44A). My perception was that recoil of the 329 is definitely snappier/faster, and the Mtn Gun has a bit more muzzle rise vs. the M69. Only thing I can think of is that the barrel is skinnier and the bore to grip relationship is higher on the 629 vs. the M69 (which rides lower in the hand and has a bit more weight forward). Could also just be my imagination. As should be expected, the Mtn Gun feels a bit bulky compared to the M69 – subtle, but noticeable to me. All guns were equipped with the Hogue 500 S&W grips.

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Brian Pearce covered the M69 and appropriate load data in Dec 2014 (#293) issue of Handloader Magazine. If you have a M69, you should consider ordering a copy from Wolf Publications http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/index.cfm?magid=689 .

With the Hornady 240 XTP Brian listed 24.5gr H110 as Max. A max load of 21.5gr of A2400 was listed as max for both the 240gr Nos JHP and 250gr Keith.

Here’s a brief recap of the article excluding load tables.

Article addressed strength & durability w/long term use of .44 Mag level ammo – shot over 2,700 round while testing and discussed engineering features.

S&W Reengineered yoke to place enough supporting steel surrounding bbl threads to handle Magnum pressures and allow increased barrel shank diameter.

Due to location of bolt notches (chamber wall thickness at weakest point is .040” in 629 vs. .052 in M69) cylinder strength is more than adequate to handle .44 Mag pressures. Ball detent lockup is a plus and “aids chamber alignment and durability”.

All endurance package features previously/currently incorporated in 29/629s have been included in M69.

Brian quotes S&W “the L=frame has a strong durable frame and barrel built for continuous Magnum useage”. Further, S&W engineers subjected the M69 to endurance testing with full power .44 Mag ammo and passed with ease.

Per Brian “IT SHOULD BE EMPHASIZED, HOWEVER, THAT THESE GUNS ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR LOADS THAT EXCEED MAXIMUM SAAMI PRESSURE GUIDELINES FOR THE .44 MAGNUM, OR 36,000 PSI”.

Regarding recoil he said the smaller L-frame’s lower bore axis “translates into decreased muzzle lift, less felt recoil and quicker follow up shots”.

Balance of article is basically discussion of load data specific to the M69 with some other observations.

Showed a table comparing velocities M69 vs M629 with various factory loads (210gr thru 300gr). Also included a couple of load data tables covering bullets from 180 – 300gr.

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Here are some loads I’ve tested.

Loads/Chrono Results:

Load Data for REFERENCE ONLY -- NOT A RECOMMENDATION – DO YOUR OWN DUE DILLIGENCE.

240gr below are Laser Cast SWC BBs

240gr, 5.6gr HP38, ... 739 fps avg, 36 fps ES (WLPs, seated deep and crimped over front dr band (OAL 1.502).
240gr, 6.7gr HP38, ... 883 fps avg, 32 fps ES (WLPs, seated deep and crimped over front dr band (OAL 1.502).
240gr, 9.4gr Longshot, ... 1,078 fps avg, 18 fps ES (WLPs, seated deep and crimped over front dr band (OAL 1.502).
240gr, 10.6gr HS6, ....... 1,035 fps avg, 24 fps ES (WLPs, seated deep and crimped over front dr band (OAL 1.502).


240gr, Federal Fact (No. 44A), ..... 1,217 fps avg, 12 fps ES
(We chroned this load at 1,375 fps from a 7 1/2" Bisley Hunter.


240gr Horn JHP XTP, 24.0gr H110 …… 1,323 fps (Hodgdon says 1,522 fps from 8.275” Bbl)

250gr Keith SWC (429421), 21.1gr A2400 …… 1,250 fps (WLPs, crimped in crimp grove for nomal OAL)

260gr LBT, WFNGC gr H110 …. 1,224 fps (Crimped in crimp grove for normal OAL) -- THIS IS MAX LOAD

265gr SWCGC, 17.5gr A2400,...... 1,142 fps avg, 37 fps ES (WLPs, seated deep and crimped over front dr band (OAL 1.570).
When seated deep (as was done here), this load will run right at or a bit above 1,200 fps from a 6" barrel.


270gr Speer JSP, 21.5gr H110 ……. 1,153 fps (My 6” 629 gives 1,207 fps -- Hodgdon says 1,421 fps from 8.275” Bbl)

Note: Above H110 loads used Fed Large Pistol Magnum Primers, and New Top Brass (Scharch). All others used mixed cases and Win Large Pistol (WLPs) except the 250 Keith/21.1gr A2400 used new Top Brass and WLPs.

Load Data for REFERENCE ONLY -- NOT A RECOMMENDATION – DO YOUR OWN DUE DILLIGENCE.

300gr WFNPB 1.651" OAL - LBT type - source unknown.
20.0gr H110.
Fed 155 (Mag)
New Top Brass (Scharch.com).
1,102 fps avg, 37 fps ES

310gr RNFPGC DC 1.605" OAL (top crimp grove) - LEE mold.
20.0gr H110.
Fed 155 (Mag)
New Top Brass (Scharch.com).
1,141 fps avg, 23 fps ES

325gr WLNGC 1.711" OAL - Beartooth Bullets.
22.0gr H110.
Fed 155 (Mag)
New Top Brass (Scharch.com).
1,182 fps avg, 13 fps ES (3 shots only)

Load Data for REFERENCE ONLY -- NOT A RECOMMENDATION – DO YOUR OWN DUE DILLIGENCE.

================================================== ======================================

The Hogue 500s worked great making my guns comfortable to shoot with the heavier loads. I have a problem with grips that are hard or narrow at the top (or both) -- recoil just hammers the bone at the base of my thumb -- the Hogue 500s pretty much solve this problem for me.

The 300s were not bad at all recoil wise, but were noticeable and the 325gr/1,180fps a bit more so. Certainly won’t shoot many of these.



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Hope some of this helps.

Paul

[salvadore]

Ward, you sure the 329 is the best .44 special?

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm297/farcla/44s.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/farcla/media/44s.jpg.html)

[EMC45]

Nice salvadore. Real nice.

[historicfirearms]

Great reply Paul. I too have been considering one of these but decided to wait a year or two to see if any problems came up. After reading Paul's testimony, I think I will go ahead and put one on order.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Great Reply Paul! The other article in that issue was about the S&W696 which is the fore runner of the M69.

I actually got Brian to write about that after I called him asking about cracked forcing cones that had been experienced with those guns.

My 696 has the Hogue grips as well but I am all done about 800fps with that gun and it will do anything I would use the gun for including Bear Protection if needed. I have settled on a 429421/H&G 503 SWC solid of 260 gr with 6.0 gr of W231.

The S&W frame hits the web of your hand really hard, and the heavier the load, the harder it hits.

I am quite satisfied with the .44 Specials performance at that level in this gun.

I have a Ruger Blackhawk Bisley if I need to shoot heavier specials and I have a SBH Bisley if I need to go magnum. Tehse gun I feel are better suited to shooting heavier .44 cal loads than the S&W is for the afore mentioned reason.

Randy

[Paul105]

Yeah, Brian wrote about the 396 and 696 and John Haviland covered the 329 in that same issue (linked above).

I also have a 396, 696, and a couple of 329s. All useful and fun to shoot within their respective capabilities. I've been retired for 15 years and am out with the dogs, hunting, fishing, recreating, etc. year around. For the last 10 years or so, the 329s were my primary carry gun, recently I've been using the M69 when I think that some recreational shooting will be involved.

The L Frame Smiths just work for me, and I typically won't carry anything smaller than a .44 Mag except as a second gun.

Paul

[salvadore]

Thanks EMC, my Mountain Lite is a hoot and painful in the extreme.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes the .44's are kind of a one size fits all caliber and their usefulness knows no bounds.

Randy

[WARD O]

Ward, you sure the 329 is the best .44 special?

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm297/farcla/44s.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/farcla/media/44s.jpg.html)

Very nice Salvadore - thanks for sharing. I surely would not turn either of those down but I will remain very pleased with my 4" with the adjustable sights for much of my 44 special shooting.

ward

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I rang up Smith and Wesson when the Model 69 first came out and told them I didn't think the forcing cone of the L frame barrel drilled out to a .44 would be strong enough. I told the tech their new gun would suffer cracked forcing cones. This tech told me they've got L frame Model 69's at the factory with 10,000 rounds of factory .44 Mag ammo through them and the forcing cones have not cracked.

[Paul105]

I made some measurements and took some pictures when I first got my M69s.

629 Mtn Gun Frame Top Strap – Width: .665“
M69 L Frame - Frame Top Strap Width: .665“

629 Mtn Gun Frame Top Strap – Height: .220“ to top of frame (includes sight mortiss)
M69 L Frame - Frame Top Strap Height: .210“ to top of frame (includes sight mortiss)

629 Mtn Gun Barrel Shank OD: .630“
M69 L Frame - Barrel Shank OD: .620“

629 Mtn Gun Frame Over Barrel OD: .900“
M69 L Frame - Frame Over Barrel OD: .880“

629 Mtn Gun Trigger Reach: 3.10“ (same grips for both 629 & M69)
M69 L Frame - Trigger Reach: 3.00 “


HERE ARE SOME PICTURES:
.
M69 Barrel Shank/Forcing Cone area:
.
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/Paul105_photo/Hobby/M69BarrelShank_zpsff7d246c.jpg
.
M696 Barrel Shank/Forcing Cone Area:
.
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/Paul105_photo/Hobby/M696BarrelShank_zpsea92bd80.jpg
.
629 Mtn Gun Barrel Shank/Forcing Cone area:
.
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/Paul105_photo/Hobby/M629MtGunBarrelShank_zps8e4a7fad.jpg

Paul