38 special hp38

[gspman]

I loaded up some 158 grn 38 match bullets from missouri bullet company over 3.5 grns hp38 yesterday and shot 25 through a clean gp100 and had quite abit of leading in throughts of cylinders and in forcing cone.shot these bullets for a few years under unique at 5.0 grns which is a +p load with no leading at all.am trying to get a load that i can feel comfortable droping into case without wieghing every one.i love unique in its performance but doesnt throw from my measure as acurate as hp38. also have titegroup that im thinking of trying.goal is accurate target load .bullets are sized .358 with a bhn of 12.i think my load is too lite even though spec from hodgden website says 3.7 max.pistol has shot these very good and clean with other powders with no problems so my results yesterday surprised me.am i too hot or cold with this load and any titegroup load recomendations.Thanks GSPMAN

[olafhardt]

I really prefer to use a dipper for loads below 10 grains. I have filed down an empty 22 lr case to 1.2 grains. If you Google Lee dippers and go to the 1CC dipper column that is the specific gravity of the powder in grains per CC. You can measure the volume of the home made dipper with a syringe. This may or may not help your leading.

[NC_JEFF]

We sometimes mistake powder residue for leading, but, if it is leading, and it's isolated in cylinder throats and on the forcing cone, this us easily corrected. Do all cylinder throats look the same and how accurate were these rounds?
I would check and correct any discrepancy in cylinder size.
Either smooth or have the forcing cone angle reamed to a frienglier angle. (DougGuy here does this for a lot of people on the forum).
Lead gets swiped onto the forcing cone in most every revolver tho to varying degrees. You didn't mention any leading in the barrel so bullet fit is probably good there. HP38 and all the other powders between it and unique have made great 38 loads for me so I don't think the powder or the amount is causing you any problem.

[RobsTV]

The 12 BHN missouri bullet company boolits I purchased measured 14.3 BHN. Could be more of a problem with light loads.

What did cylinder slug at, tad larger than bore? My Ruger Blackhawk required honing cylinder larger.

While not really helpful to your issue, shooting 4.7gr HP38/W231 in four different S&W 38's (from 3" to 4") with 129gr HP at 11 BHN, and bores are always spotless after shooting 100's of rounds a session. 1" groups at 10 yards as well. Perfect combo here.

[gspman]

Been shooting lead bullets in this revolver for a very long time.My main load is 13 grns of 2400 under the same exact bullet only it is 18 bhn.have no issues with leading with this load.runs very clean.seems there is a balancing act when shooting cast bullets.size pressure and hardness.i dont have a size issue or i would have problems way before now.i believe i have a pressure problem.the leading seems to be sprayed onto throughts and forcing cone.two things i wonder about.unique and hp38/231 are very close on burn rate chart and im loading these at 5grn unique and 3.5 hp38.seems grn wieght would be smaller with burn rates this close.all info i find is 3.7 max so not comfortable going higher.also hp38/231 and the 38 special and 158 lead.hard to find any more common loading than that so im not out in left field on component wise.That is why heavy leading [can scrape lines in it with oring pick]after 25 rds is surprising.my plan moving forward is to clean gun and shoot my 5 grn unique load and monitor.then my light 357 load with same bullet over trailboss powder and monitor.then try a few titegroup loads and see if i can make those work.thanks for replies.hoping to hear from some that loads 158's with hp38 and at what level.seems would be very common.GSPMAN

[RobsTV]

Went and looked over old notes from before I bought Mihec mold and used the 158gr Lee. Need hotter loads for more complete powder burn. Light loads left a lot of unburned powder and a lot of cleaning. Never any leading.

Lee 158gr Chrono results from 4"
W231 4.65gr, 928 fps, pf=147, 301 ft/lbs,ES-53, SD-14
W231 4.45gr, 892 fps, pf=142, 282 ft/lbs,ES-36, SD-14

Also, my old notes show loading data:
358-158-RF
lymans 3.6 to 4.7 gr w231,oal = 1.445

[gspman]

your showing loads 1 grn over what hodgden is saying .i believe my loads are weak and not getting lead to expand and seal bore.is that lyman data current and is it +p or standard 38 special.i've been thinking of getting a lyman manual for awhile so maybe i will .thanks Rob GSPMAN

[RobsTV]

Based on the Chrono results, I would say they are +p loads, or close to it.

That Lyman Data was from my notes 2 years ago..
Looking just now at 49th Edition data for lead and 4" barrel I see:
155gr 1.460 oal, w213 3.5gr 680fps, 4.7gr 885fps, (+P 5.0gr 934fps).
158gr 1.445 oal (shortest) w231 3.6gr 769fps, 4.0gr 837fps (no +P).
160gr 1.550 oal, w213 3.5gr 675fps, 4.9gr 906fps, (+P 5.2gr 956fps).
170gr 1.537 oal, w231 3gr to 4.6gr
Lyman only lists w231, no longer showing HP38.

14 BHN “requires minimum” 20,000 psi to seal the bore.
17 BHN “requires minimum” 25,000 psi.
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

While HP38 and W231 are the same, many websites show W231 loaded hotter. Seems data is not updated by many. I go with actual Chrono results obtained by testing in my own guns, along with other factors. Is you 38spl +p capable like most, even if you only use +p loads for testing to get a full range to go by? Point is, maybe try using w231 loading data instead?

Here is an example that says they are the same, yet shows different data:
http://www.reloadammo.com/38loads.htm
158 grain LSWC or LRN
HP38 3.1 gr. 782
HP38 3.7 gr. 834
231 3.1 gr. 753 (do not use less)
231 4.5 gr. 830 (published MAX)


But all of this might not help your original problem. Get the loads faster to see if it helps seal the bore.

BTW, after switching to slightly lighter 129gr HP from Mihec, now use 4.7gr w231 for light loads (chrono 885fps), and 5gr w231 for almost +P loads. For 357 light loads in a 3" j-frame, using 5.7gr w231. All these loads are no where near max tested, but are what works best for me with accuracy #1 concern. This lends me to think your 3.7gr max for 158gr is too light of a load.

[Petrol & Powder]

HP38 / ww231 was my go-to powder for 38 Special until it became difficult to acquire. In my quest for a load using a 158 gr bullet that was accurate but not punishing to my alloyed framed guns, I did a lot of experimentation with lower charge weights of HP38.
THE GOOD:
HP38/231 meters very well
It tolerates low charge weight fairly low
It works in a lot of cartridges and seems particularly well suited for most revolver cartridges
It was relatively economical to use
THE BAD:
In all but the high end acceptable charge weights, it is relatively dirty
It is now difficult to obtain, at least at reasonable prices
At low charge weights is occupies very little of the available space in the casing

After shooting hundreds of rounds with charge weights under 4.0 grains I found that although HP38/231 can produce decent rounds below 4.0grs. it was difficult to find the right combination of bullet hardness/lube/accuracy below 4.0 grains.
It should be noted that a LOT of that testing was done before I started casting and I was using commercially cast bullets. Those bullets were almost always harder than needed and bevel based.

I don't think your problem is related to the use of HP38/231 but rather the hardness of the commercially produced bullets. Given those bullets and the extremely strong GP100 - I would recommend staying near the upper end of the standard pressure 38 Special data which would be around 4.4 grains of HP38/231.

[gspman]

Thanks so much for the info.yeh i believe that the 3.5 grn load is way too light.intersting note is right on the bottle it says that 3.7 grn hp38 158 grn lswc is going 834 fps.must be using a 20" barrel ha ha.yeh i only shoot these in my 357 gp100 and i thought from info i could find i was at upper level 38spl.Need to get a lyman book but still bothers me that the hodgden is so low as i usually put most trust in powder company data.now im wondering about data looking at for titegroup high low accurate?Well im going to move slowly moving forward with upping the charge and loading titegroup.Thanks for info again.confirms my theory.GSPMAN

[ejcrist]

Just a quick thought, but at 38 Special velocities I've never shot anything harder than straight wheel weights at a bhn around 11. I'd think anything harder wouldn't seal in the throat well.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'll second ejcrist, a BHn of 11 is as hard as the bullet needs to be at 38 Special velocities. In fact if you read the link to Fryxell's information in post #8 you'll see that 11 BHn is just about perfect.
I'd be willing to bet that your issue is related to excessive bullet hardness and not the powder charge. A BHn right around 11 is where you want to be with 38 Special and you can even go softer. However, I will also say with some hard learned experience to back it up, that 4.0 grains of 231 behind a 158grain lead bullet in a 38 Special casing would be my minimum load in a gun as strong as a GP-100. You can go to 4.4 and still be in standard pressure ranges (non +P) for 38 Special. When you look at the SAAMI specs for 38 Special and .357 mag and consider that GP100 is designed for the .357 mag., you'll see that there is a huge margin of safety there.
I would start at 4.0 grains of ww231 / HP-38 with a 158 grain lead bullet. At that charge weight you aren't even Close to max pressure, even in the standard 38 Special range.

[gspman]

I am not debating that the bullets i am using may be a little hard for std 38 special loads.what i am having a problem with is data from the powder manufacterer that is not accurate.i dont have a chrony so i rely on info i obtain that shows a specific load recipe and the velocity it achieves. 158grn lead bullet over 3.7 grns velocity at 850fps.that to me seems like a decent load to start a workup.but it doesnt get 850fps and from info above is quite abit lower.so i followed correct protocall and started lower than max and knowing they are going to be fired in my gp100 i thought i would have a good performing load.what i got was a anemic load that leaded my gun bad at 25 rnds.thats what makes me mad. so last night i cleaned my pistol which took awhile and today with a clean gun went and shot 40 of my 158swc lead bhn 18 loadsover 13 grns 2400 and 30 158grn 38 match bullets over 4.5 trailboss both in357 cases without a trace of leading. the trailboss load uses the same bullet that i used in the hp38 load that leaded so bad.so not sure what i will do for a 38 special load now.all of you have said that my load is light.hodgden says im almost at max.you say i need to up my load at least half a grain and one grain would be better .why is the hodgden info so flawed as it is there powder.that is my issue as i did not get the load that i thought i was.Thanks GSPMAN

[RobsTV]

The easy solution about why they list possibly erroneous data on their site is to simply give Hodgden a call about HP38 and W231 loading data. Please post back with results.

One other thing that changes everything is brass used. Unless I missed it somewhere, the last post is the first I see mentioning 357 cases. For your GP100, are you creating 38 spl loads using 357 brass or 38 spl brass? With 357 here, always using 357 brass, even with light 38spl equivalent loads, mainly to reduce boolit jump, and also to avoid crud ring. This would be even more of a dirty problem when using 38 spl brass in 357 and HP38/W231 light loads. But 357 brass overall length changes pressure and velocity from what identical powder loads would be in 38 spl brass, and 357 brass does require more powder to equal 38spl brass performance (shot in a 38spl).. Note, unless noted, the data I posted above was using 38spl brass in a 4" 38 spl revolver. The same load in 357 brass and handgun would be slower and less powerful.

[Petrol & Powder]

Load data from various sources has trended downward over the years. I blame the civil litigators. I think they publish data for the worst case scenario because they are worried about some crazy jury. The sad part about that strategy is that there is no protection from stupid people.
Most of my load data comes from older sources and even that information is a bit conservative. No one wants to be dangerous or reckless but there comes a point when you have to look at the data and say, "this was acceptable 30 years ago, what changed?"

[firebrick43]

I am not saying this accounts for the differences 30 years ago compared to today. Hodgdon does not make powder. They buy and resell it as win 231 or hp 38 just as they do with all their powders. Evidently powder making is not exact as lots very(sometimes significantly). Maybe they tested a lot at the high end of the spectrum and you have a lot at the low end.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think they're just scared of their own shadow and fearful of bizarre judgments from wacky juries.

[gspman]

The loads i shot on saturday are proven loads ive used for a long time and they are both in 357 cases.the hp38 load is in 38spl brass and its purpose was to get a similar load to my 5grn unique load but with a powder that measures well that doesnt need every charge wieghed.and because i had some hp38 on hand and was low on unique and havent been able to find any recently.also have a bunch of 38 brass i figured i would load up.so i will probably work the hp38 load up and see if i like it.i have used the hp 38 in my 45acp mostly and didnt really care for it.found bullseye and red dot always more accurate and cleaner.so i have half a pound left that .i will use up .dont think i will buy it again.i am hoping i like titegroup better as wasnt able find any bullseye so bought a pound of it to try.couple of weeks ago found some bullseye so im good on that.what i would like to know is someone proven loads with 158 lead in 38 cases and titegroup. data on bottle says 3.8 grns will make 920 fps.i wonder if that is accurate info.for sure i will only load a few and try not 50.GSPMAN

[RobsTV]

It's a shame you haven't had good luck with HP38. I go through 8 lbs jugs of it like water, when I could find it. My #1 go to do everything handgun powder, although with faster calibers like 40 S&W, 9mm and 357mag, other powders are preferred for "slightly" better results. 45acp, 38spl, 9mak, 380acp all prefer the HP38/w231 for best results, as long as they are loaded right.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've shot many pounds of 231 over the years and it is a good powder for 38 Special (and a bunch of other cartridges as well). Most of the older published data shows 4.4 grains as the max load for a standard pressure 38 Special using a 158gr lead SWC.
I've gone as low as 3.0 grains of 231 behind a 158ge LSWC in a 2" barrel but that load is getting close to the point that I would seriously worry about sticking a bullet in a longer barrel. I was very cautious with that testing and made certain that every bullet exited the barrel.
Frankly, 4.0 grains is a good all-around starting load for a LSWC and I find that WW231 performs better when the charge weights are closer to 4.4 grains. I'm not a big fan of hot loads and prefer to keep things reasonable but ww231 / HP-38 seems to do better closer to the upper end of the data.
In a 4" GP-100 I wouldn't even consider going under 4.0 grains. That gun is incredibly strong !

Let us known how this progresses.

:drinks: