WW Greener shotgun (Martini action)

[223tenx]

My step son has a friend that has a Greener shotgun (Martini action) that he wants to sell. He's bringing it over today so I can see it. I googled it last night and found values all over the range. None being over $400. The owner has shot 12 ga. shells in it w/no problem. I'm not particularly interested in it as a shotgun, so my question is--what kind of potential is there in converting it to a rifle caliber? Is it basically the same action as a Martini rifle action? The owner bought it at an auction and I have no idea what he has in it but he told me to make him an offer after I've seen it and that I wouldn't offend him. Sounds like a motivated seller. Any and all comments welcome. Thanks.
223Tenx (Pete)

[Outpost75]

I live in West Virginia, would be interested in seeing this gun and possibly be interested in buying it IF a 12-ga. and it appears to be either originally made or professionally converted that way.

The Greener Police Gun was chambered for a strange 14-ga. shell which required an unconventional dual firing pin, intended to preclude natives in Africa and India using common shotgun ammunition in it.

I don't know in WV where you are, but if you are within driving distance of Martinsburg, I would like to get in touch. I close enough to the Peacemaker National Training Center to hear the Sounds of Freedom.

www.peacemakernational.com

A sporting version the Green GP or General Purpose Gun, in either 12- or 16-ga. was made for export and sold in great numbers in Africa and Asia. If you have one of those I would offer a fair price based upon condition.

Pictures would help. PM me if interested in selling.

If your stepson would like to sell, or if not I can offer suggestions in converting it to a useful rifle caliber. A .45-70 would be an obvious choice and John Taylor could do the work.

[223tenx]

OP75,
I'll post pics if I get to see it. My SS is more interested in what interests him, so I may not get to see it. I'm in Saint Albans. That's a pretty good drive from here. I've always wanted a Martini rifle and the only one I've seen around here had been rebarreled in a weird cal. so I passed on it. There's a lot of "what ifs" here. We'll see what transpires.

[curator]

A decade or so ago I converted a Greener Martini to .40-65 for use as a BPCR with less recoil than my .45-70s. It is a good strong action with a really fast lock time. NRA BPCR competitions won't allow them as the triggers and firing mechanism gives their shooters an unfair advantage over the "hammer-slapping" Sharps and Remington rollers.
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[rickw55]

Curator,
I would like to see some more pictures of your Greener Martini rifle, as I have a Greener Martini action that I intend convert to a .45-70 rifle.
Please post some more pictures if you have any available.
Thanks,
Rick W

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/TwoGreeners001.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/TwoGreeners001.jpg.html)
Here are a couple of Greener GP shotguns in 12 Bore.one has 2 1/2" Chamber the other 2 3/4" Chamber.
In the past I have rebarreled two Greener GPs to 45.70 for Black Powder.They do make a good Rifle but I prefer to keep these as Shotguns.

[rickw55]

COL4570,
Thanks for the pictures. I'm always interested in seeing other Greener-Martini guns!
Rick W

[223tenx]

Guys,
Are all the GP shotgun actions short lever? Do you have to keep loads in the black powder range, say, for 45-70 conversion?
223Tenx (Pete)

[Outpost75]

OP75,
I'll post pics if I get to see it. My SS is more interested in what interests him, so I may not get to see it. I'm in Saint Albans. That's a pretty good drive from here. I've always wanted a Martini rifle and the only one I've seen around here had been rebarreled in a weird cal. so I passed on it. There's a lot of "what ifs" here. We'll see what transpires.

Understood. They make a very nice shotgun, which is what I would want it for. They patterm tightly with modern loads and if 2-3/4" chamber make wonderful squirrel and turkey guns, which is my intended use. They are amply strong to be rechambered from 2-1/2" to 2-3/4", but because the gun is VERY light (part of their attraction to me) I would not contemplate taking one out for 3" shells. These favor 1-1/8 oz. low brass trap loads,or 3-1/4 drams equivalent, 1-1/4 oz. "International Target" or Euro style field loads, a bit lighter than our "duck & pheasant." The 3-1/4 drams equivalent, 5s is a very versatile load for squirrel, duck, pheasant or close-in turkey..

[John Taylor]

A customer sent me four of the so called 14 gauge shotguns which are not 14 gauge but twelve with a step in the chamber. The firing pin has three prongs around the primer that went into a groove around the primer to the firing pin could hit the primer.It's true that standard 12 gauge ammo would not fit. Three of the shotguns got 45-70 barrels and the prongs around the firing pin were broke off. The forth one I ended up with and installed a liner in it to make it a 45-70, keeping the outside looking the same. I soldered a front sight on and added a rear sight. Sent it to a friend to try out and he wrote back that it was as ugly as a 2X4 but it sure shoots good.
The first three were sent out for color case and with new wood they looked great.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A good Greener GP is probably just as strong as the Martini-Henry rifle, and suitable for the same conversions. It is a little deeper, and has a larger barrel thread, possibly about 1.1in. diameter. They are usually takedown, of quite a strong design, that I can't see as a source of weakness. The takedown screw is threaded for half the receiver width and it can e made of stronger steel than the receiver. My pictures show a damaged tenon (to fit that slot) repaired with square high speed steel, which silver soldering doesn't soften. But the earlier police guns were solid frame.

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I have seen old rifles made with just the same shape of action, and not by Greener or Webley. I don't know whether these predated the police shotgun, and it is often impossible to trace components through the maze of the Birmingham subcontracting and buying-in system. I have for example a George Gibbs double shotgun, and nothing at all but the knowledge of Ian Crudgington, of the current Gibbs company, tells me the barrels were bought in from Webley.

I have seen a shotgun with conventional bore and chamber and marked EG instead of GP. I don't know if this was an original civilian shotgun or a conversion, but if memory serves me rightly it wasn't a takedown. One snag about the Greener for rifle conversions is that so far as I know, they all had rather large firing-pin diameters, and would have to be bushed or welded and redrilled.

Greener were eventually taken over by Webley, who continued to make the GP for some years. These guns had the pins fastened with circlips, and are less well finished. I have heard it said that the quality of the receiver was lower, but I don't know about that. It was in the early days of investment cast steel components, so if they were made that way, it could be that people made a false association with the undeniably inferior process of ordinary casting.

It would be hard to find a better shotgun for use with slugs, but most of them have full choke, which would be better amputated or, if you plan some use with shot, reduced to something like quarter choke or less.

[223tenx]

136136136137136138I have gun in hand this morning and I'm impressed with the condition. It's very clean with a very shiney bore. the gun is marked EG and WW Greener MKIII. It has Cyrillic markings along w/the British proof markings. It says NITRO PROOF 1 1/2oz. That is all I can decipher. Looking down the bore w/ a light, I can see no steps in the chamber and I cannot see the breech block end. My Camera is not the best.

[223tenx]

From what I've read: This is a police shotgun used in Egypt police service, hence the EG designation.
It is a WW Greener Mark III and appears to have a standard 2 3/4 12 ga. chamber.
I'm not sure about the nitro proof (as to strength) and also not sure about the 1 1/2 oz marking. Looking down the bore w/ a light I cannot see a step in the chamber. Anybody care to guess what it's worth is?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Egypt wasn't the only place they were supplied, and some used ordinary cartridges. There is a picture of the grooved cartridge head on this web page. It wasn't so much to make a stolen gun useless (anybody could modify the firing-pin) as to stop native policemen poaching or indulging in score-settling with privately acquired ammunition.

http://www.martinihenry.com/450577.htm

These guns acquired quite an undesirable reputation in South Africa during the apartheid years. Of course worse things happen in much of the rest of the continent, but we are led to believe that since it wasn't racist, people didn't mind it so much. I doubt if they were inscribed in Cyrillic script, which would be ex-Soviet and Balkan. Could it be Arabic? A lot of surplus firearms used to come back to the UK from Egypt marked مركز بولس , or markaz bolis, which I think means "police centre" with the English word instead of the Arabic, since Arabs don't have a letter P and can't get their tongues around it. Police station I suppose, or police central armoury.

This action should be a lot stronger than is really necessary in a conventional shotgun, and because recoil would be unpleasant if it was much lighter than a double, it has considerably thicker barrel walls than pressure requires. This picture is a very similar heavy barrel in good steel, on a considerably cheaper and more unloved single which I used to test ring-bulging due to bore obstruction. This crack was produced with two steel nuts tightly wedged in tissue, and would surely have produced instant amputation of the kind of barrel doubles have. But even bystanders would probably have remained unhurt.

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You wouldn't see a step in any kind of 12ga. chamber from the muzzle. I used to know a sports shop proprietor who sold GPs, and said they must never be dismantled, as he had to send them back to the makers. Well it is nowhere near that bad. Here are assembly instructions. You can generally get the block in and out by pushing on its front end, with the front of the trigger unit free, and wiggling the lever. If removal of the block is impeded by the firing-pin, just remove the trigger housing altogether, and pull the firing pin rearward with a screwdriver that fits the slot in it for the sear.

http://www.martinihenry.com/policeguns.htm

I have, just once, seen a firing-pin which was cracked on one side of this slot. This is something to watch out for, as the gun will fire if the other side goes. Note that while the extractor axis pin is a screw, the block axis, which looks like one, is actually a split pin, made to be driven out with a punch.

That website is well worth cutting back to www.martinihenry.com (http://www.martinihenry.com) to see plenty of other information.

[223tenx]

BIS, You're correct in that it has Arabic not Cyrillic writing and the gun is marked EG on the side of the receiver. Doing a little research found that EG means "Egypt Giffae" (or similar) meaning Egyptian Police Service. I checked the breech end of the bore with a light and a small mirror and there is no step in the chamber. The bore is mirror bright and maybe I'm just not seeing it if there is a step. I found that some were imported with a std. chamber in 12 ga. 2 1/2 ". I'm trying to locate a fired shell from this gun and hopefully it may show something meaningful with firing pin indent.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/32-40MartiniBlackPowderRifle004.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/32-40MartiniBlackPowderRifle004.jpg.html)
This one is made up from castings once retailed by Brownells.An exact copy of the Greener GP Shotgun.I barrelled this one in 32.40 Black Powder.I have retained the take down feature.The barrel can be removed by turning the lever at the fore part of the Action.The two large rounds are 45.70 and 50.70 for comparison with the 32.40 cases.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/32-40MartiniBlackPowderRifle003.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/32-40MartiniBlackPowderRifle003.jpg.html)
Another View.

[223tenx]

That's a really nice Martini. I've always wanted one but the owner wants $300 and I just don't want to put the money in it to get it rebarreled. I've been getting rid of my safe queens and I'm afraid this would be another one.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

This one is made up from castings once retailed by Brownells.An exact copy of the Greener GP Shotgun.I barrelled this one in 32.40 Black Powder.I have retained the take down feature.The barrel can be removed by turning the lever at the fore part of the Action.The two large rounds are 45.70 and 50.70 for comparison with the 32.40 cases.

Those are very interesting castings. I think you would have trouble getting Numrich to export them nowadays. Notice how illicit Martini building has fallen off because of that?

Do you notice, there is a rather less abrupt angle at the top of the butt socket than there is in the GP? Some genuine antiques have that, and I think it looks better than either the GP or the Mk. IV military action. The GP, of course, would be fine for a much larger cartridge than the .32-40, but the difference in bulk of action, compared with the ordinary Martini-Henry, isn't enough to make it seem oversized for that cartridge.

Your stock is good. I think the Martini doesn't want anything over-elaborate, but yours is just distinctive enough to show it isn't ust cut-down military woodwork. I don't think butt and forend, for most hands,need to be thinner than the receiver. When I restored a very derelict Martini I used the 3in. diameter roller of my belt sander to make the receiver to butt joint concave. It breaks up that rather severe straight line, and it reduces the tendency of the Martini to have chips break loose at the top of that wood to metal joint.

[MT Chambers]

I've seen some converted to very fancy 12 Ga. trapguns, with high rib barrels.

[Col4570]

Those are very interesting castings. I think you would have trouble getting Numrich to export them nowadays. Notice how illicit Martini building has fallen off because of that?

Do you notice, there is a rather less abrupt angle at the top of the butt socket than there is in the GP? Some genuine antiques have that, and I think it looks better than either the GP or the Mk. IV military action. The GP, of course, would be fine for a much larger cartridge than the .32-40, but the difference in bulk of action, compared with the ordinary Martini-Henry, isn't enough to make it seem oversized for that cartridge.

Your stock is good. I think the Martini doesn't want anything over-elaborate, but yours is just distinctive enough to show it isn't ust cut-down military woodwork. I don't think butt and forend, for most hands,need to be thinner than the receiver. When I restored a very derelict Martini I used the 3in. diameter roller of my belt sander to make the receiver to butt joint concave. It breaks up that rather severe straight line, and it reduces the tendency of the Martini to have chips break loose at the top of that wood to metal joint.
The Timber came with the castings and was oversize for fitting so I was able to put panels where the Action meets the Stock and Forend.I made the Forend for the rifle and still have the one that came with the kit.I also have the 12 Bore Barrel.The Extractor and Cocking Pawl where missing so I made those parts.The barrel is one from a Sharps 20 bore Repro lined with a turned down 8mm Rolling block Barrel and proofed in Birmingham.The sights are own made apart from the adjustable Eye cup.I made a 32.40 Chamber Reamer.The Barrel slugs at .325"On Target at 100 Yards.The rifle Fouls up quickly due to small Bore.Used a Blow Tube but settled on using a Carbon Fibre wiping rod that is Flexible enough to go in from the chamber end.The case takes 40 grains of 3f BP plus the bullet.I have had some success Breach Seating with a Lubricated wad and a card.I made up a lever to push the case and Bullet in,the lever is made not to come in contact with the Primer.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You would probably be even happier if you made your own eyecup! It is a marvelous project. This is just curiosity, but when did Numrich offer those parts? Possibly they came from Webley when they ceased production.

A Spanish Remington barrel? That is oversize for both 8mm and .32-40, as they often are. I think you would need a larger than normal bullet diameter to avoid leading. I believe you would get better results with coarser black powder. It is the time taken getting to the muzzle that determines the best grain size, not the caliber, and with coarser grains the fouling would be distributed along a greater length of the bore.

The carbon fibre rod is a good idea, but be careful it isn't rubbing on the rear of the rifling, as it could be abrasive.

[Col4570]

You would probably be even happier if you made your own eyecup! It is a marvelous project. This is just curiosity, but when did Numrich offer those parts? Possibly they came from Webley when they ceased production.

A Spanish Remington barrel? That is oversize for both 8mm and .32-40, as they often are. I think you would need a larger than normal bullet diameter to avoid leading. I believe you would get better results with coarser black powder. It is the time taken getting to the muzzle that determines the best grain size, not the caliber, and with coarser grains the fouling would be distributed along a greater length of the bore.

The carbon fibre rod is a good idea, but be careful it isn't rubbing on the rear of the rifling, as it could be abrasive.

As far as I can find out the Kit was retailed by Brownells many years ago.It had been in the Hands of the previous owner for a long while.I traded a Mosberg Pump Action Shotgun For it.I will attempt to find out more of its origins.The castings had a slightly rough grey texture and it was necessary for me to file and smooth the Parts Prior to Case Hardening,The Hardening process was done on a own made Hearth using a cylinder vacuum cleaner on the blow side,all parts except the Barrel where placed in a WD Ammo Box and surrounded with Leather,Sheeps Horn,Charcoal and Bone Meal.I baked the Lot on a Charcoal Fire for 2 hours and turned the lot into a cold Water Tub.Some colour was achieved and the Parts resisted a file.I will follow with a Photo of the Barrel Stop for the take down feature,I copied this from the Shotgun Barrel.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/GreenerLockup002.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/GreenerLockup002.jpg.html)
This is the barrel Lock up,similar to the one you posted.The Locking Lever is the Top Lever from a condemned Shotgun attached to a New Screw.
PS The Barrel used as the liner was from a Swedish Rifle I believe.