Cherrys

[44man]

I have been making my own molds for a while and had trouble with my cherrys warping. I don't have anything but a torch and don't want to spend any money because I am retired. :D
I found a way to do it today and it worked like a charm. I chucked the end of the cherry in my drill press, put a can of oil under it and turned on the drill at slow speed. I heated the thing real good, shut off the drill and opened the chuck. The cherry fell straight into the oil without me having to worry about dipping it straight. :idea
Since this is my first post here, is there a way to put pictures on a post?[/img]

[Greg5278]

Perhaps if you have enough heat with your torch you could heat it in a salt pot. Put the salt in a container that won't melt, and fill it with kosher salt, then melt the salt with the torch. You will have to guess at the temp, but then put the cherry in on a wire. Then you can quench it as normal.

What are you using for cherry material, O-1, W-2, or other? You could try A-6, it will harden at 1650F in oil to the mid 60s. Some heat treating outfits could put it in the pot with another batch of material and charge only a few dollars. Do you have the ability to grind the cherries when Hard? Try making a blank, and heat treating it for less distortion. Greg

[44man]

Greg, I have only small tanks and would use all my gas to melt the salt. I can't grind the tools either. The cherry I made cut great and made a beautiful boolit. Trouble is that it came out .002" undersize. The gas check fit good. I have been cutting all my cherrys to boolit size up to .45 caliber but this one is .476. (.475 Linebaugh) The lead must shrink more on the large diameter boolits. I have not worked out the ideal sizes for each caliber because it takes me a day to make the cherry. I have to use an end mill to cut the flutes then hand file the nose cutters. My .44 boolits came out .430 and my .45's came out .459. (45-70 revolver)
I have started another cherry that is larger. Very hard to do on a Smithy. REAL hard to control cutting small amounts.
I really don't know the steel as I buy from several places on the net. It works good and does not shrink when I harden it and I just make aluminum molds so I don't need anything fancy.
Some of my boolits have shot 1" groups at 75 yd's from my revolvers so I am doing OK with what I have, it just takes a lot of time to make the things.
It gives me a chance to test different boolits without spending Social Security.

[44man]

Greg, forgot to mention that the mold came out exactly round and when I open the handles the boolit falls right out. I don't have to tap the pin at all. Darned best mold I have ever used including many custom ones. Shame it is a little too small. I might polish it with Comet cleanser. .0005" out of it would be enough. It shot fairly good at 50 yd's.

[Greg5278]

Is sounds like you have a good system, my suggestions were just to try an d make it better if neccesary. Your tolerances seem to be very accurate for your type of equipment. You mentioned the steel, but not what kind. For most simple steels, you can check it for critical temperature by touching a magnet to it. When it is no longer magnetic, it is ready to quench. I thought you were using the cherry repeatedly and wear resistance was an issue. Good luck Greg

[trk]

44Man, Greg (and others) -

Agree with y'all on the option of using air-hardening steel to limit warping.

Could you post some pictures? I picked up a lathe and milling machine a few years back SPECIFICALLY so I could make my own moulds. I've spent the interim cleaning, fixing, getting tools, building mortars and cannons (to sharpen my skills) and started a Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon forum which I co-moderate with another cannon-addict.

Now is the time for me to get back to moulds, I built a radius cutter to do the spherical radius on a 5-1/4" OD 'Dictator' mortar and now am going to build one for cannon ball moulds. But I really want to get back to doing moulds in .358 .375 and .458 diameters.

[44man]

Trk, I am going to send pictures to 45nut to post. I sure wish I had good equipment but I was never a machinist. Had to do a lot of talking to the wife to buy the Smithy. Had to learn by myself. I do a lot of head scratching but I do have fun. :lol:
I was a fueler and bag smasher at United Airlines for 42 years and got out just in time.

[trk]

Trk, I am going to send pictures to 45nut to post. I sure wish I had good equipment but I was never a machinist. Had to do a lot of talking to the wife to buy the Smithy. Had to learn by myself. I do a lot of head scratching but I do have fun. :lol: ....

COOL! I am building mortars and cannons now on my mill and lathe. For a given job the first third is fixing something, next is building the tooling and last is doing the job.

I co-host a forum on mortars and cannon - it is through a lot of folks posting their pictures that I've learned a lot of cool techniques to use in my work. So even though you may not be using the MOST sophisticated setup, seeing how you solve a setup problem with a minimum of equipment is probably more useful.

[44man]

TRK, I sent pictures but 45nut only gets one. I don't know why so I am sending him one at a time in case his mailbox gets filled too fast. :?

[45nut]

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/45nut/vicesetup1.jpg
http://photos.gunloads.com/images/45nut/vicesetup2.jpg
http://photos.gunloads.com/images/45nut/webmolds.jpg
there we go...nice pics

[trk]

Good pix!

I'd love to know more of the details of the vice operation.

[44man]

trk, I went to a foundry in PA and got two risers. They said it was top grade cast iron, better believe it! I sat and looked at those big mushroom shaped things and could not figure how to cut them. A saw blade just squeeked. I wound up putting a cut off wheel on my body sander to saw it. To get rectangles I ground it with an angle grinder. My yard and drive was rusty for a year. I finally got them down far enough to get under my mill. Stuff ate cutters. The hardest part was cutting the cavities for the mold blocks. The inner corners had to be chiseled out.
I got the pictures of the vice on shooters.com. There are two guide rods running through the vice. The screw has a left hand thread on one side and a right hand thread on the other. When tightening it, the jaws move toward the center together. I changed the configuration to fit in place of my milling table by cutting dovetails on the bottom. I remove my table from the base and slide the vice on using the gib from the table to remove all play. The lug in the back has the end of the screw shaft locked into it so the screw stays put. I screw the lug to the table base with two cap screws. I have a snap ring on the inner side of the screw and a washer and pin on the back end. This keeps it in the lug so the screw is stationary as the jaws move. Thing works like a champ. The only out of alignment I get is from the cherry as it cuts because of the cutting action. It tends to lead away from the cutters. If I am careful, this will only be .0005. I also keep cleaning chips like I explained before and when the blocks are closed as tight as I can get them, I let it run free for a while with WD-40 in the cavity. They really shine.
I made a new mold yesterday and cast a pile of boolits today. It is great to cut the sprue and just swing the mold toward the water bucket as I open the blocks. The boolit just falls out. I never have any burrs inside the cavity. This is a continual learning process trying to figure out what design boolit to make and what size to make the cherry. I waste a lot of steel. It is hard to figure what to take off for a gas check because I like to tap them on by tapping on the work bench. Sure wish I had a good mill and lathe.
It took me two weeks to make the vice. :lol:

[trk]

Great definition -

You've given me the keys I was looking for - like the bracket holding the operating screw in place and the guide rods. Had to laugh at the rust. I know what cast iron is (foundery in town 20 miles from here and I've worked in a brake manufacturing plant as a tooling engineer).

I'm looking at building two fixtures - one for the lathe and one for the mill. I want to do multiple cavities.

I got the lathes (2 identical Supermax 1338's) and a Kurt variable speed 3hp vertical mill for $1800 when the HS closed out their metal working program. Lot's of work cleaning and fixing before I get to the work of fixturing to do the real work. What I'm saying is to look around for 2nd hand equipment - sometimes it goes cheap. Don't be afraid of 3 phase - you can build or buy a rotary converter.

[44man]

I am always looking, but never find a bargain. Some of my friends just fall into things but I am unlucky. The only thing I have ever won in my life was a baseball cap. I could buy every lottery ticket but one and still lose. Then being retired on a fixed income (except for the IRS) I have to be careful what I find. Thats why I never go to gun shows because I always see something I can't afford and think about it for years. I have had to sell off silhouette guns to buy new hunting guns. Some are now worth a fortune. :x

[Willbird]

Talking about cast Iron, I cut my teethas a machinest on schedule 30 grey iron, wonderfull stuff to machine, it will spoil you, no matter how much you shower or bathe tho your bed pillow ends up rusty as the stuff comes out of your pores when you sweat.

I have been cogitating on an idea to put power feed on my rotary table for the milling machine so I can circle mill boolit cavities....I need to jury rig it and see how round of a hole I can make. It comes to mind that if you moved most of the amount needed to make a .430 boolit with a .370 cherry on the Y axis that you could then move the X axis the last several .001 to achieve final dia and have sort of a fine method of increasing dia that was not 1-1 like doing it all on the X axis. But I guess to withdraw the cutter to measure the cavity I would still have to move both slides, one could mark the cavity up with black sharpie tho to know when you were cutting again to take off the final amount.

taking the exact dia requirement away from the cherry making process would make it much easier I think. I also would not have to close the blocks on the cherry if I can circlemill them. I have all day if needed to "spark out" the finish pass if needed :-)

How many cutting flutes do your cherries have 44man ?

Bill

[44man]

I cut six flutes far enought to reduce the rub area on the next flutes. For the .475 I went in .090". However, I only file three flutes to the nose as this is a lot easier and they cut good.
Cutting four flutes would not help me because as much metal would have to be removed to reduce the rub area.
The trouble with cherries is if the size is not right, another has to be made. My machinery is not good enough to bore a cavity.

[carpetman]

44Man--You cut 6 flutes to reduce rub area on the next flute. You are correct,the awkward way flutes are held requires more room. Even a trombone doesn't require as much space. Personally,I like the clarinet better. Would seem that putting a 90 degree bend in it where it points straight ahead would be the easiest fix.

[Greg5278]

Couldn't you make a profile tool and use it in a boring head on the mill to cut the cavity? You couls use the tool for multiple calibers. A rotary vice on the mill would allow you to offset the blocks and cut a cavity larger than the tool itself. I figure it would clear chips better, and give you more utility. I am not a machinist, but I think you could set the mold blocks in the 4 jaw rotary vise, and still bore multiple cavities.

I have seen several good heavy duty 4 jaw vices that could be bolted to the table on a Bridgeport Mill. Moldmakers who lathe bore the cavities also use the 4 jaw chuck to line up and indicate the blocks. Are you milling the profile on the cherry, and then stoning it after hardening?

My Grandfather an I had dicsussed making a profile tool to cut a 12 gauge cavity in the lathe. We were going to use a preground HSS tool blank, and cut the finished cavity in 1 step. The major stock removal would be drilled, and bored to minimize chatter on the final cut.

If you had the ability to grind hardened steel, you could probably use an old chucking reamer to make a cherry. The biggest prolem with all of this is the ability to precision grind hardened steel. You can even buy reamer blanks with 6 and 8 flutes already cut. Greg

[Greg5278]

I forgot to mention something. Are you guys interested in any rough milled cast iron blocks to make molds? I am probably going to buy a bar, and need to make a minimum order. It will be continous cast iron, and fre of any surface crap. I am looking at a bar to finish up at 1.000 by 2.000, and I can cut whatever length we need. I will rough mill all surfaces, except for the saw cut end which will not affect any thing. Is any body interested in some pieces? Greg

[trk]

I forgot to mention something. Are you guys interested in any rough milled cast iron blocks to make molds? I am probably going to buy a bar, and need to make a minimum order. It will be continous cast iron, and fre of any surface crap. I am looking at a bar to finish up at 1.000 by 2.000, and I can cut whatever length we need. I will rough mill all surfaces, except for the saw cut end which will not affect any thing. Is any body interested in some pieces? Greg

I'm interested. Where on the 'east coast' are you?

[Greg5278]

I am in Central New Jersey. The blocks won't cost much to ship in a flat rate USPS box. They could be sent for $7.70. I was going to cut the blocks with precision edges on the mill, and saw one edge. I wasn't going to do any other machining, but it would be clean pieces ready to finish with holes, etc. The grade will be 65-45-12 cast iron, and be annealed, there won't be any sand or scale on it, because it is continous cast. Greg

[trk]

Having a mill, I'm intersted in the basic blocks. Not having a cut off saw, having the rough cut blocks rather than a bar would be good. For 7.70 you can ship more than the box will handle (I've shipped 56 lb of rounds and DOM ends). When we get magnets shipped in, there is 14ga metal wrapped around them to keep the contents together. Obviously I'm interested. Which iron do you specify? It may be that through a local machine shop (that gets good rates because of high volume) that I could get us a good price.

[trk]

44man -

Did you make your own left-right threaded rod and nuts or did you purchase them. If they're available I'd much sooner purchase - especially if I could get something hardened and ground. Vee or acme threads?

[Willbird]

I'm assuming the squeeze maker consists of a single lead screw with lefthand threads on one end and right hand on the other end.

for what it does it could be made good enough on a simple lathe.


Bill

[trk]

I'm assuming the squeeze maker consists of a single lead screw with lefthand threads on one end and right hand on the other end.

for what it does it could be made good enough on a simple lathe.


Bill

Both assumptions are correct.

BUT I'd prefer fto find something that is more precise and hardened (preferably ground) to withstand wear. I learned long ago in industry, if you can buy it do so - it will be much cheaper and as a production item will be better made. I have found L-R threaded studs in McMaster-Carr, but they are relatively short and only made of 1018 (cold rolled) steel.

And, since it's been 1968 since I've cut threads on a lathe, I'd just as soon not take the time to teach myself how to do it at this time.

[44man]

I cut the threads on the tool steel shaft with the lathe. I bought a left hand tap from E taps, real cheap, to thread the block. There was some difference but some lapping compound made everything fit. The threads are 7/16". No nuts are needed because the blocks are threaded.

[Buckshot]

.............If you're looking for ACME threaded rod you can get it in various accuracies from Nook Industries, or Roton plus another which escapes me at the moment. You can get it in low carbon 1018, 4140, and a couple grades of stainless. These places also supply nuts in plastic, bronze and cast iron. These ACME rods can be ground thread, rolled or cut and are usually priced by the foot.

What 44man has made, and very nicely done too, is a double acting or self centering vise. You can buy these from Kurt with 4" and 6" wide jaws. They quote accuracy over the entire jaw movement as .0006" and .0002" repeatability. They're angleloc's so the tighter you tighten them the harder they pull down. You can also 'set center' where you like within a range between the 2 closing sets of jaws.

Since Kurt vises of this size and single acting go for a $400 - $600 I would imagine these specialty items might be half again as much. But then maybe not.

...............Buckshot

[44man]

It would be nice to buy something, but remember that I am retired and even have to sell guns to buy a new one. My labor is free for me and the low cost of my materials makes it much more enjoyable. I would rather make something from nothing then spend money I will never recover. Besides, it is more fun.
Since the blocks are threaded for the screw, how could you thread them with Acme threads? I have no way to lathe cut them and don't know of any taps. Hard to tap them things anyway. You would have to fasten a nut on the end of each block. :roll:

[Greg5278]

The blocks are of 65-45-12 cast Iron. They were priced through my Grandfather's machine shop. No discount is available from Durabar metals. Their product is continous cast, and free of scale, and inclusions. They guarantee the product, and supposedly make the best USA made cast iron.

The price would be reasonable for the blocks. I will add a little bit in for my machining time on the mill, and the cutters. But it will still be better than buying blank blocks from RCBS for $90. The holes will be up to you. I can cut the slots for the RCBS handles at .305-.310". I am probably going to cut the handle trough in 12 inch strips of material. My last set of mold blocks were 2.000" high by 2.000"wide, and 1.875" long. I guess I could do 2 inch cubes, but then I would waste more material. Let me know what you might need.

[Buckshot]

..............44man, believe me that I completely understand what you're saying when yo'd prefer to make it yourself. Since you already had a setup my post was more directed at someone else who might not have the materials and means to do what you did.

However, to answer your question about the ACME thread and your existing blocks. The grey castiron nuts sold for the ACME threaded rod are round, not hex shaped. They're intended to be machined to a shape to suit, or to have a flat milled in them.

In your situation I would clamp your jaws together and then bore through to a suitable diameter (maybe turning the nuts too) to accept the nuts. The nuts would then be fitted to the bores in the jaws, locktighted and pinned or fixed with setscrews.

...............Buckshot

[44man]

Buckshot, I get you now! They would be nicer then regular threads. I might convert in the future. Thanks for the info.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot, I get you now! They would be nicer then regular threads. I might convert in the future. Thanks for the info.

.............Well I don't know about 'nicer' but they'll sure stand alot more pressure on them then standard 'V' threads in cast iron. Another nice thing is that when the time comes that the ACME rod starts to show some wear (or the nuts) , you can remove the ACME nuts, slit them across their axis through the threads and then drill and tap a hole in one side and install a setscrew.

Tightening this down will spread the nut a tiny bit and remove any backlash. My lathe's cross slide screw was a bit worn in the middle where most all the motion takes place and I did that. The only problem is that now when you move the cross slide beyond the centerline it gets a bit harder to turn on the unworn section. But, I don't often get back there.

I did order a 5/8-10 lefthand ACME screw (accuracy .001"/ft) from Roton and 3 nuts so I can eventually replace the 7/16-10 factory screw. The nuts are for the existing cross slide and then 2 dual toolpost cross slides I have. That 5/8" diameter screw shouldn't show any wear until well into my grandkid's use of it!

................Buckshot

[Willbird]

I can find a way to DO anything hehe, thats one of my strong points.

You could buy 2 pieces of ACME threaded rod, one left and the other right hand thread, and turn one down, and drill and ream a hole in the other one, and then silver solder them together. Or use a roll pin, taper pin, or dowel pin. you Might even be able to make it a threaded joint, say 1/2-20 and use some of the super duper red loctite that is rated as strong as well applied soft solder.

I would take part in a group buy on the ACME rod with (5) other guys so we each ended up with 6" each of R and L threads.

One benefit of ACME is it seems to allow some self alingment, IE it can be sloppy axially but not be so in a linear fashion.

one can also use TWO acme nuts with a method of linear adj between them to remove backlash. if this device was closed against a strong die spring tho backlash would not be an issue ever.

Bill

[carpetman]

I read all this stuff about machining and can remotely follow some of it. What are Acme threads? I know from watching Road Runner cartoons that Acme makes good stuff---Wiley uses it frequently. I also know that there is no connection to them and Acme boots as they aren't so good.

[StarMetal]

Ray...great post...you really got me chuckling on that one as the Roadrunner has always been my favorite cartoon. You're right about Acme making good stuff and I might add in every area too. You won't find Acme products at Lowes or Home Depot tho...they are strictly mailorder.

Joe

[Greg5278]

What did you guys think of the rotary table idea on the mill to bore the molds? A boring head could be used , and save the trouble of making the doulle acting vice. I thought the best point was the cutter could be used for other bullet diameters. Did anybody want some cast iron for Blocks? With or without handle slots? Greg

[Willbird]

I read your post about the boring head, and the rotary table, I mentioned the rotary table part myself further up the thread, I would not even use a boring head, if you were going to mfg. a single flute mill cutter (which is what you would end up with) you could simply hold it in an R-8 collet. In any setup the shorter it can be with the least number of connections ends up more rigid.

What would be nice is to have power feew on the rotary table, that can be jury rigged up for a trial run and I intend to do so. The 4 jaw chuck I do not think would work very well for indexing the block to the next cavity. I myself thing a magnetic chuck on the rotary table however with a fixed "fence" to slide the block along and then some blocking around it would probably work very well. One could add a couple holes for bolts to hold the blocks closed while machining them.

the difficulty of making a series of cavities exactly the same size and depth on that kind of setup increases exponentially. if making one cavity is X, 2 cavities is X squared, 3 cavities is X cubed, 4 cavities is X to the 4th power.

The Cherry is more likely to do the same thing every time because it is more free cutting, if you can control depth you will pretty much get cavities that are identical twins, or triplets, etc.

IMHO the reason Veral (LBT) can match his cavities is that with a tracer lathe he can easily run the same profile over and over with a very free cutting tool, I would guess he uses gage pins on the rear section of the cavity and re-runs the cavity until the pin jusssssst starts, if you have .001" and .0005" pins in plus and minus tolerance you can check a hole size almost to the .0001" with practice. also with the boring process he has unlimited access to the cavity to measure it without disturbing the tool position. And he is extremely careful about setting up each cavity to get the blocks centered.

Bill

[Greg5278]

I agree with using a simple single flute arrrangement to aid rigidity. Couldn't you use the crossfeed on the table to index the second cavity. On a Bridgeport mill you can put the royary table on the normal table, and retain the normal X and Y feeds. I was told that the 4 jaw chuck is the best way to clamp molds for boring, to ensure precision. Greg

[Buckshot]

.............A 4 jaw chuck (this is my opinion) isn't the best way to hold a set of blocks. It's adequet and it pretty much works, usually. I believe the best way is in a purpose made fixture. In a fixture you can have a non moving clamp face to indicate zero off of, and thereby everything else. This assuming you're lathe boring and not closing both blocks on a cherry.

Hoch makes a big deal out of using a 2nd Operation Hardinge lathe "Specially set up to do moulds". A Hardinge is a nice lathe, and no doubt about it, but I think his mentioning it is a bit of 'dazzle'. You're working right there at the spindle nose where you have the most rigidity and accuracy. Heck, my 23 year old Logan will hold .0005" at a foot from the spindle and a tenths test indicator won't flicker running on the spindle nose. His special setup is similar to what Lee uses. A dedicated fixture plate.

..............Buckshot

[Willbird]

If we are rotating the mould on the rotary table while circlemilling the cavity, then moving the cross slide either X or Y will make the hole larger. We most move a differant portion of the block to the cl of the rotary table to index for another cavity.

for milling IMHO a six jaw chuck is the best, of the adjust tru variety, they hold a part more firmly against the loads placed upon a part by milling, one can also remove one jaw where a keyway or flat, or portion of the part is, or even two opposing jaws in extreme cases.

Bill

[Buckshot]

...........Willbird, you must be talking about a 6 jaw independant chuck? As a 6 jaw scroll chuck would have a very hard time clamping to anything other then round stock. Sorry about the following llinks as I can't yet figure out how to download images directly from my host site, LIKE I USED TO BE ABLE TO :-( !!!!!

http://www.fototime.com/6ADB65C4A381D83/standard.jpg
The above will open a photo of a 6 jaw Buck Adjust-Tru I have, and was using as part of getting my lathe leveled and set up.

http://www.fototime.com/B42999491991D09/standard.jpg
And turning a test bar. You can use an Adjust-Tru to get right down into the tenths, but just like a 4 jaw independant, everytime you put in a new workpiece you're back with your dial indicators setting up again.

In using a 4 jaw to hollowpoint bullet moulds, at first I wore myself to a frazzle chasing thousandths back and forth across the parting line of the blocks. Mould blocks aren't always as square as we'd like, and the chuckjaws may not apply even pressure, especially with a 2 cavity set as the jaws may be well across the parting line, as in the photo below:

http://www.fototime.com/2235C21F3A083BE/standard.jpg
What I've gone to is to place copper wire (ground wire stripped out of old Romex) between the jaw and block. You also have a 'bell mouth' situation with the jaws able to tilt a bit in the chuck body. The copper wire compensates to a degree.

After doing a couple moulds, I have come to understand that having the test indicator bounce a thousandth and a half, or two across the parting line is just something to expect, so the REAL alignment measurements are taken opposite them on the clean cavity surfaces. Naturally you want everything to be as perfect as possible, right? Early on I would stick the pointer of a .0005" TI down into the cavity to ride a lube groove. That was pure idiocity. I spent hours re-setting, flipping the mould blocks back and forth from cavity to cavity, etc & etc. Oh my aching back!

I even set up block halves on a granite surface plate to try and find out what was happening, only to accept that cavities aren't always cherried straight. I told one guy when I'd first started that I was unable to get the cavity to run straight to the blocks. I was chasing a thousandth back and forth all over the place on a cherry cut block. I have a piece of paper stuck on the cabinet over my reloading bench, opposite the lathe that says, "Remember the RCBS".

This was a 7mm-168 that was oval. I guess the blocks didn't completely close on the cherry when it was made. Trying to get THAT abortion to run true would turn a saint into a blithering lunatic and have you sitting in a dark corner sucking your thumb. I have become much more serene and can accept a .001 to .002" bounce across parting lines if I can get the opposing surfaces to run within a thou.

It's still spooky to 'do the deed' and I always lean against the bench and have a smoke reviewing what I saw before advancing the spotter to centerpunch the nose.

...........A rotary table used to cut varying diameter cavities with one cherry sounds interesting. Sounds kind of like using a router? I hope someone does that and reports back. I'd sure be interested in hearing about how it worked. Remember that whatever minimum level of accuracy the rotary table has in 360* rotation will reflect X2 in the cavity you cut that way.

.............Buckshot

[Willbird]

Most of the work we did in 6 jaw scroll was round, that is true, BUT the 6 jaw could also become a 2 jaw with a holding fixture on each jaw.

personally I would like to give a mag chuck a whirl, I have used them lots on ID grinders and they worked great,most touching up on a mold will be low torque stuff that shouldnt move the blocks around.

also it is common to find on ID grinders, older ones that the spindle does NOT run the same when powered as when rolling over by hand, IE you can dial it in to .0001 TIR by hand, and turn her on and have .0005 runout.

I have had to dial in some things that werent nearly round, and the only way was to indicate where each pusher screw (buch adjust tru) is and adjust accordingly, when it is as true as it can be the indicator movement makes sense, if it is running out and you are trying to correct that it does not make enough sense to ever get her in.

I think when I do my first mold re-work I will find a gage pin that fits snug on the bottom of the grease grooves and indicate that to start with, then check the cavity. maybe while I have the 429421 in there to enlarge the dia, lengthen the front driving band, and make the grease groove shallower I will go on and hollowpoint it.

If time were not an issue, and with home made molds it usually isnt, I would make the blocks, and have a hollowpoint pin hole wire edm'd right on parting line, then I would have a datum to use for the lathe work. you could make one block 1/2" wider than the other to have a datum surface to indicate the blocks in straight on the wire machine, and a trough cut with a small ballmill while in the milling machine would be your wire start. the wire machines make holes perfectly straight for the most part and where they belong within .0001.

then one could indicate a gage pin that jusssst fit in the hp pin hole in the lathe.

Bill

[carpetman]

Buckshot--do you use ground wire as those jaws have trouble chewing solid wire?

[Buckshot]

Buckshot--do you use ground wire as those jaws have trouble chewing solid wire?

.............Well actually Carpetman, the jaws have no problem (ahem) chewing solid wire, at all. I just happen to ah, prefer ground wire. Just a personal thing is all.

.........Willbird, "Most of the work we did in 6 jaw scroll was round, that is true, BUT the 6 jaw could also become a 2 jaw with a holding fixture on each jaw."

As it happens, I have a Buck 2 jaw Adjust-Tru also. I've never used it. I asked on the HSM board what you do with a 2 jaw chuck. Basicly I was told it's to hold things a 3 or 4 jaw won't hold. Well, awright!

".............I think when I do my first mold re-work I will find a gage pin that fits snug on the bottom of the grease grooves and indicate that to start with, then check the cavity."

That's what I TRY to do, but you can't always. First of all I have pin gages (.0000, -.0002) in sets from .061" to .625. These are by thousandths. IF you have a mould that will close on a pin snugly with both blocks touching, that's half the battle. The other half is that there has to be a pair of lube grooves the same depth to hold the pin concentric.

Just one lube groove and the pin gage will wobble. The only other possibility is if the nose will accept the end of the gage pin. In other words if you can press the pin gage into the nose so as to hold that end, with the lube groove providing the other support. Otherwise a gage pin is a non-starter.

Wire EDM is great stuff, especially if you have one in your home shop. On the other hand, if you should have to take your set of blocks to a company to have the EDM work done you might get to wondering if having that spark cut hole is really worth it afterall.

I once had the brainy idea to have some blocks cut to produce a bullet for the Whitworth muzzle loader. These bullets were to be as the originals, 6 sided and with the 20" twist cast in. You cannot have a mere 2 block type mould as the bullet form would lock the blocks together unless the skew of the twist was sufficiently blurred to almost delete any benefit.

The only way to utilize 2 blocks and cast a sharply formed bullet like this was to have the parting line cut on an identical helical type form, with the parting line following an opposed set of 'corners' of the bullet. So, you have wire EDM to cut through the set of blocks while the blocks had to rotate through a few degrees of rotation.

After that was done, you'd drill and set alignment pins. At that point they'd be set up for plunge type EDM. This would also include the machining charge for the carbon EDM. When I got an idea of the expense I said thank you very much for your time, and hung up!

.................Buckshot

[Catshooter]

that hard to turn, 44Man. Since you turned the threads on the bolts for your vice, all you'd need to turn up the same thing in an Acme thread is a properly ground tool bit and the technical specs for the pitch and diameter you want.

Also, if you can thread, you can also make a tap and/or die to whatever you want. Just make it out of tool steel and harden it just like your cherries.

If it was me, I'd probably stay with unified threads as the Acme are much stronger but also much coarser. I would think the unified pitch would give better control, but then I've never made my own cherryering (can you spell that that way?) vice, and you have. Just my .02.


Cat

[Willbird]

Buckshot, I think the 2 jaw are often used with soft jaws machined to fit the part, they could also hold round, square, hex, and octagon stock with the proper jaws.

another nice thing to do with a 3 jaw chuck with bolted on top jaws is to machine a set of top jaws to hold warner-swasey collet pads, these come in lots of sizes, and round,square, hex etc. of course this only works out if you have a ton of them already

[James Wisner]

Buckshot, Willbird.

Have been lurking now for a couple of weeks.
Am fed up with Lyman molds in general and and am just about to start making my own moulds.

Will try making them as Willbird, is taking about using a single sided half cherry with the profile and the dia undersize, then move either the Y or X axis.

Also most tool sharperners can grind a straight flute end mill into a cherry for you.

Have several options to spin the moulds.

Manual lathe with a face plate and spl fixture to hold mould in place, then reindex and cut next hole.

Manual mill and rotary table with 3" kurt vise and then reindex for next hole, use digital readout to keep track of axis movement.

CNC mill with 4x axis, lay it on its side and clamp the 3" kurt vise on it and use it as a rotary table, this way simply write a short program to do the work and then reindex and repeat for each hole.

Mold material, have a few questions.

Have tested Lyman, Saeco, Rcbs, for hardness, only have a C scale so most of these are really on the B scale or even a Brinell scale. The Lyman is the softest, the Rcbs and Saeco will run aobut 20 RC. So have two types of steel avaiable in my inventory. 12L14 or 1144, the 12L14 runs about 20 RC, the 1144 will be 28 RC. Both will machine nicely.

Comments regarding the use of these metals for moulds.

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith
www.wisnersinc.com

[45nut]

Welcome to CB Jim.
A most welcome addition,those of you that may not know of Wisner's should click on his link. He has a very nice assortment of gun parts available and a nice reputation as a gunsmith as well.
Someday I plan to get off my duff and send my 500A2 up there for a feeding re-work and general "finishing".
Having read a lot of his posts on A.R. I believe he is certainly up to making quality molds. And we can always use more options in that field.
Nice to get you out of the "lurk" mode Jim.

[Buckshot]

..............James, welcome aboard! I have no comment of value as regards type of steel to use other then to say it should be fully stress relieved. Pretty sure you knew that. I would be partial to either cast iron as a material, or aluminum. One reason for aluminum would be it's cost and ease of machining. Plus you can buy it in suitable rectangle sizes for block halves.

The only bad thing about AL is regardless if you start with 7075-T6, after heating and filling with hot lead it's going to lose it's hardness. Might be neat to anodize the top surface the sprueplate slides on.

Lyman blocks are steel. RCBS and Saeco are cast iron. I really don't think that ultimate hardness is an issue. If aluminum makes good blocks, which it does, then steel or cast iron, even if fully annealed would be MUCH sterner stuff. I'm still aways off from when I attempt to cut any moulds. I did buy a 3/4x1.5x6' piece of 6061-T6 as material to practive on, and 36, 1/4" HSS drill blanks to grind into nose forming spoons and drive band tools.

One of the posters here has bought some CI from Dura-Bar and has offered to have them machined and parted into blocks for a nominal cost. He wasn't quite overwhelmed with takers :-). I said I'd take a couple to have against the day I try my hand at it. I don't have any CNC capabilities. It's all manual for me with dial indicators everywhere!

.................Buckshot

[Greg5278]

Buckshot, the cast iron is ordered. I am not sure of how much machining I am going to do on the iron. I haven't had time to get the one CNC shop to quote out the job. I was just going to finish all sides of the blocks with a shell will, and mill the handle slots for the RCBS handles. I was going to cut the handle slots at .305" to tigthen up the fit. The blocks will be 1.000" thick. If enough people wanted some sort of block set, and we could agree on a "standard" the CNC shop could cut the vent lines, and all holes could be drilled and reamed. I don't think we have enough to make it worthwhile right now. The shop has a minumum charge for CNC machine time, and setup. They don't charge for programming.

I have also talked to a moldmaker who used S-7 tool steel for some machine cast molds. He said they were difficult to cut, but should last forever. I have several 360 brass molds, and really like them. I am not a huge fan on Aluminum molds, because they can be damaged easily. Greg