Unusual Rifle on Gunbroker......

[oldracer]

I sent an email to the listing person and he replied he pretty much knows nothing about it? I did a search on the name on the stock and got nothing back so I thought I'd see if anyone here has seen this? It is hand made as you can tell by the fit and finish and appears to have a patent breech and why the false muzzle other than to give you a place to hammer in patched round balls? Finally about the strangest mount for the rear sight I have ever seen but then again it does allow for a lot of adjustment!!!!

Here is the link: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=474250851

[nicholst55]

It's definitely different...

[MaLar]

I don't think that's a round ball gun.
I believe it's a slug gun. Look up Harry Pope he built guns like this.
The false muzzle should be tapered so to load a slug into the rifleing.
Usually made from a section of the barrel itself.

I believe it would be called a stump or log gun.

[Mgderf]

I can't imagine that thing would have any recoil at all.
It looks like it must weigh 25lbs or more.

[drago9900]

Round ball bench guns are similar, they use false muzzles too.

[pworley1]

It looks like a shooter.

[Golfswithwolves]

The improvised sight base suggests that there may have once been a tang sight instead of the present arrangement.

[Longone]

The improvised sight base suggests that there may have once been a tang sight instead of the present arrangement.
That and not knowing the condition of the bore makes it a big **** shoot, I sent the person selling that rifle a message through GB and never got a response so that spoke volumes to me.

Longone

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That and not knowing the condition of the bore makes it a big **** shoot, I sent the person selling that rifle a message through GB and never got a response so that spoke volumes to me.

Longone

Doesn't dare lie, and doesn't want to tell the truth. There is a lot of that about on internet auctions. Oscar Wilde said that ignorance is like an exotic fruit (which Wilde would know about): touch it once, and the bloom is gone.

t's modern. "GR Douglas" is the mark of the Douglas barrel company, although it may be quite a while since they made heavy octagonal barrels. I don't believe they make octagon barrels now (if it came from the factory octagonal) but it certainly isn't nineteenth century.

http://www.douglasbarrels.net/palma/

The wood doesn't look old either, and I think that is a modern varnish finish.

As to what it imitates, there was a style of heavy, large-bore muzzle-loading rifle made for long-range benchrest shooting before the Civil War. They mostly used heavy elongated bullets, and without that weight the recoil would have been very severe. Some of them were fitted with very good vernier tang sights, but his rifle's sight is in a style which didn't become current until much later, and has been clumsily adapted by an owner. The screw in the false muzzle replaces a taller post or paddle, which should prevent a shooter from absent-mindedly shooting off his false muzzle. It is quite hard to make a perfect replacement.

An even more extreme rifle of this type, possibly from the author's collection, is described on Page 89 of the following book by Charles Winthrop Sawyer, and illustrated on the facing page. It figures in a very interesting short story on Page 91.

https://archive.org/stream/firearmsinameric00sawyrich#page/90/mode/2up

Such is the wonder of the internet that we are a lot closer to finding a previous owner of the rifle than Sawyer could have been iin 1920.

http://records.ancestry.com/george_lainhart_records.ashx?pid=22054220

Not but what it would be fun to shoot, if the bore was OK and the price was right. But it isn't, quite. It might come down if it doesn't sell.

[John Allen]

if anyone wants to see more of these go to Dixon's gun makers fair they have quite a few.

[oldracer]

Thanks for looking and most of you mirror my thoughts. I did send an email and the response I got was he knew nothing about it except it "shot great" and couldn't tell me what he shot? It might be stolen or something like that? Some searching on the seller's name "Rudy Hanson" shows he has sold some unfinished AR-15 lowers and lives in a suburb of L.A. If anyone else can help I'd appreciate it.
John

[JSnover]

The false muzzle also prevented damage to the crown from cleaning rods, gorilla-seating the ball, etc. I believe it's rare to find a vintage piece with the false muzzle. They tend to get lost. This one doesn't look that old.

[Nobade]

Wouldn't touch it myself. Too much of that is hacked together.

-Nobade

[pietro]

.

The false muzzle is nothing more than a few inches of the muzzle end of the barrel, cut off prior to rifling, then the cutoff piece and the new muzzle drilled for the alignment pins.

The false muzzle was clamped in place for rifling together with the barrel before both were crowned & a sight blocking pin installed atop the false muzzle (so the gun would not be shot with it in place).

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20americaine/artisan%20w%20x%20y%20z/wesson%20edwin%20target%20rifle-03.JPG

The reason for a false muzzle on a target rifle is to ensure that the boolit enters the barrel perfectly inline with the bore when it was loaded, and also to save any wear on the barrel's crown.

Oldtime BP target shooters, like today's target shooters, were fanatical about doing every little thing they could to make a rifle more accurate.

Many muzzleloading caplock rifles, built for target shooting, can be found in Ned Robert's book "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" - a worth while read for anyone interested in frontstuffers.

The rifle on GB has been cobbled together from a variety of old/new parts, as can be seen with the bubba shims used under the receiver peep sight to align it with the bore.

http://www.sidemountreels.com/images/650_Billinghurst_rifle.jpg

The GB rifle was made either by/for someone named Bill Cowgill, as indicated on the buttstock's dedication plate - his "Big Medicine" rifle, if you will.

It would make an interesting project gun, if it were only priced anywhere near it's reasonable value ($250, +/-)

It looks like all it would really need to be a good shooter is a proper tang peep sight & replacing the sight-blocking screw on the false muzzle with something more appropriate than a modern machine screw - but I'd also disappear the beavertail forend.

It would also bring better money (maybe an extra $100) if it were parted out.



.

[oldracer]

Well I called Dixon's back in PA (Thanks John) and the name on the gun was not familiar. I agree about the mix of parts and especially the way the rear sight is mounted. But.....the patent breech joint does look pretty good and you can see where the barrel was cut to make the false muzzle. I did look through Major Roberts' book and there are a lot of pictures of "target" rifles unfortunately they are not very large! I am thinking of asking to meet half way to San Diego, maybe in Oceanside at a gun shop and look down the barrel with my bore scope?

[mattw]

Not a bad looking bench gun. Not sure where you are located, but Friendship Indiana has the NMLRA nation shoot each year and you can see many of these do thier thing. Fun to watch, have always wanted to try it one.

[wonderwolf]

I've seen a few of those around, never seen one shoot. Oddly enough the ones I've seen use a chase patch iirc this one does not appear to have the need for one so I'm not really sure what kind of projectile it takes. Muzzle doesn't look like normal rifling either.

[waarp8nt]

I like everything, but the crappy job of shimming the rear sight.

Like mattw, I've seen a few at Friendship myself and I have always liked to watch them shoot. Would love to shoot one myself.

If your looking for info, it may not hurt in inquire of the NMLRA to see if that was the name of a gunsmith or a registered shooter. They may or may not have any info to give you, but you won't be out anything either.

[wonderwolf]

I messaged the seller as to the specifics on the bore, he just simply said "great bore" does not really instill a lot of faith in me but if I had the coin and the need that would be awfully tempting.

Also doing some more research shows the rifle was up for auction one other time with a buy it now of $750...

[Longone]

[QUOTE=oldracer;3197568 I am thinking of asking to meet half way to San Diego, maybe in Oceanside at a gun shop and look down the barrel with my bore scope?[/QUOTE]


Oldracer, maybe before you take a ride, see if he will run a patch down the bore and send you the pic? If he sends a pic of a new patch you know what that means.

Just a thought.

Longone

[Longone]

He was probably bombarded with e-mails now that I see several here have contacted him as well. My guess is he is just sitting on it waiting for one of the many who contacted him to place a bid. When you see a sight hacked up like that makes you wonder what else was done that you can't see. It also make me wonder if they "tried" it out and parked it without cleaning the bore.

It would be nice if it worked out for someone.

Longone

[Ballistics in Scotland]

.

The false muzzle is nothing more than a few inches of the muzzle end of the barrel, cut off prior to rifling, then the cutoff piece and the new muzzle drilled for the alignment pins.

The false muzzle was clamped in place for rifling together with the barrel before both were crowned & a sight blocking pin installed atop the false muzzle (so the gun would not be shot with it in place).



The reason for a false muzzle on a target rifle is to ensure that the boolit enters the barrel perfectly inline with the bore when it was loaded, and also to save any wear on the barrel's crown.

Oldtime BP target shooters, like today's target shooters, were fanatical about doing every little thing they could to make a rifle more accurate.

Many muzzleloading caplock rifles, built for target shooting, can be found in Ned Robert's book "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" - a worth while read for anyone interested in frontstuffers.

The rifle on GB has been cobbled together from a variety of old/new parts, as can be seen with the bubba shims used under the receiver peep sight to align it with the bore.



The GB rifle was made either by/for someone named Bill Cowgill, as indicated on the buttstock's dedication plate - his "Big Medicine" rifle, if you will.

It would make an interesting project gun, if it were only priced anywhere near it's reasonable value ($250, +/-)

It looks like all it would really need to be a good shooter is a proper tang peep sight & replacing the sight-blocking screw on the false muzzle with something more appropriate than a modern machine screw - but I'd also disappear the beavertail forend.

It would also bring better money (maybe an extra $100) if it were parted out.



.

I see no evidence of any old parts at all, and the breech arrangements are actually quite clumsily executed. It is made in the style of a drum conversion of a flintlock, but I don't believe any rifles like this were built as flintlocks. It is nothing like as elegant as the breechplug castings available from Track of the Wolf, but I don't believe any of these are big enough. Allen screws have been used to mount that sight (evidence, probably, that it hasn't spent all its life in the hands of antique fakers), and the owner's plate was done with fairly modern letter stamps, not engraving. They did exist in the late nineteenth century, but mostly had little serifs on the letters, unlike Arial (the default font on this board), but like Times New Roman.

The wide, flat benchrest forend is correct for rifles of this sort, but most of them had cheekpieces, and often a cheekpiece on each side, to allow shooting from either .

[Ballistics in Scotland]

.

The false muzzle is nothing more than a few inches of the muzzle end of the barrel, cut off prior to rifling, then the cutoff piece and the new muzzle drilled for the alignment pins.

The false muzzle was clamped in place for rifling together with the barrel before both were crowned & a sight blocking pin installed atop the false muzzle (so the gun would not be shot with it in place).



The reason for a false muzzle on a target rifle is to ensure that the boolit enters the barrel perfectly inline with the bore when it was loaded, and also to save any wear on the barrel's crown.

Oldtime BP target shooters, like today's target shooters, were fanatical about doing every little thing they could to make a rifle more accurate.

Many muzzleloading caplock rifles, built for target shooting, can be found in Ned Robert's book "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" - a worth while read for anyone interested in frontstuffers.

The rifle on GB has been cobbled together from a variety of old/new parts, as can be seen with the bubba shims used under the receiver peep sight to align it with the bore.



The GB rifle was made either by/for someone named Bill Cowgill, as indicated on the buttstock's dedication plate - his "Big Medicine" rifle, if you will.

It would make an interesting project gun, if it were only priced anywhere near it's reasonable value ($250, +/-)

It looks like all it would really need to be a good shooter is a proper tang peep sight & replacing the sight-blocking screw on the false muzzle with something more appropriate than a modern machine screw - but I'd also disappear the beavertail forend.

It would also bring better money (maybe an extra $100) if it were parted out.



.

I see no evidence of any old parts at all, and the breech arrangements are actually quite clumsily executed. It is made in the style of a drum conversion of a flintlock, but I don't believe any rifles like this were built as flintlocks. It is nothing like as elegant as the breechplug castings available from Track of the Wolf, but I don't believe any of these are big enough. Allen screws have been used to mount that sight (evidence, probably, that it hasn't spent all its life in the hands of antique fakers), and the owner's plate was done with fairly modern letter stamps, not engraving. They did exist in the late nineteenth century, but mostly had little serifs on the letters, unlike Arial (the default font on this board), but like Times New Roman.

The wide, flat benchrest forend is correct for rifles of this sort, but most of them had cheekpieces, and often a cheekpiece on each side, to allow shooting from either shoulder.

[pietro]

.

IMHO, There's nothing new about the bolster/drum (nipple seat), and the hammer/lock doesn't look very new to me, either.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/474250000/474250851/pix817669719.jpg


.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There is nothing old about the bolster drum either, and I think that is machine-engraving, or part of investment castings. I believe GR Douglas made some barrels before the Second World War, but very few, and they are mostly a 1950s enterprise onwards.

[Plastikosmd]

Ugh, those shims!
like a Victoria secret model missing her 2 front teeth

[kens]

Yes, that is a Slug Gun.
I have seen the slug gun matches at Friendship, In.
The ones I witnessed were mostly about .40 cal, and a very long boolit, paper patched from the muzzle.
The false muzzle had a mechanical press of thing that got the elongated boolit started in the bore.
The paper patch was a criss cross of 2 paper strips, laid out on the muzzle, and the boolit pressed into the bore.
The matches were 200 and 300 yards, and they shot 1 moa out to 300 yards. (with a muzzle loader, black powder)
I think those bubba shims are to raise the sight up to the long range elevations.
The guns I witnessed had 20x scopes on them.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, the originals were made for elongated bullets, sometimes of great weight, and there is very little point in using a false muzzle with round ball. What does it matter if it rolls a few degrees as it is being pressed into the muzzle?
l
Crosspatching never really caught on in the UK. It requires cleaning of the bore between shots, which was common in scheutzen shooting, and it would require it more with the fast-twist rifling required to stabilize a very long bullet. After a brief flirtation with Whitworth's mechanically-fitting hexagonal bullet, it was found that best results to get a number of accurate shots before cleaning was a long hollow-base bullet and very shallow rifling.

Another reason for the false muzzle to be popular in the USA was the brief period of popularity of the picket ball with almost no parallel section. The false muzzle and a plunger matching the ogive was the only way to get it inserted straight.

[Plastikosmd]

My false muzzles on my rb guns are a great aid in tight load combinations. Beyond that, they serve to protect the muzzle which is not really necessary with careful loading

[mazo kid]

I would hazard a guess that yes, this is a slug gun, and "possibly" that cobbled up rear sight mounting was done by someone not into the sport. The gun might have been missing the sight and this one was put on in an effort to make the rifle look usable. That barrel is a high quality barrel; I think they may have even been air gauged. Some of the bench rest guns are works of art, others are just a collection of parts assembled to make a target rifle. I have one with the same Douglas XX barrel that was put onto a stock that looked like maybe it had 2 or 3 other barrels and locks mounted on it!

[Tar Heel]

Yup...slug gun

[rhbrink]

GR DOUGLAS (XX) 50 cal would be a round ball barrel with a 66 inch twist.

RB