Is too light a load bad?

[nekshot]

I have another question. I am loading for some of my sons personal 1911's and for fun I started using less and less powder and the slide is still working fine. My intention was to see how slow I could go till the thing would not eject(only my wondering mind was leading me down this path) and I got to thinking about the seer bang theory in rifles. I don't want to wreck his toy so I ask, is too little bad in a handgun other than lack of function or boolit not exiting?

[theperfessor]

I don't think SEER has ever been attributed to small charges of fast powders. Seems like the only cases I can remember reading about that were suspected of being a SEER issue were instead more likely to be double (or triple) charges of fast powder. (I admit I could be wrong about this.)

You are aware of the issues of sticking bullets and inability to cycle properly so no red flags there with your plan. I don't think a charge too low to expand and seal the case in the chamber and result in gas leaks would cause problems in a 1911, but if my cases came out smokier than usual on the outside I might suggest stopping there or upping the charge just enough to prevent that.

[bangerjim]

Only problems I have ever had with lite loads are: stuck non-cycled carts in semi's and really dirty black garbage on the brass. Even with uber-clean burning powders, at low loads they still leave carbon behind. And it takes at least on extra patch to clean the barrel. I PC everything, so the extra cleaning is caused by the non-expansion of the brass and the powder smoke creaping up the sides of the brass.

I mainly stick to min loads listed in all the standard books for semi's.....after spending lots of time digging live rounds out of the darned things! Not worth it. Just buck up and live with the recoil. In rifles and revolves, I got extremely light.....making sure lead goes out the other end!!!!!! That is why I LOVE revolvers and rifles and do not really like semi's.

I would suggest staying at the min load for a VERY good reason. It is NOT fun to have a 1911 with a live round stuck in the chamber, the action is cocked, and you cannot manually cycle it! Most people do not have the tools in their range bag to fix this in the field. Fixable........but a total PITA.

Good luck!

banger-j

[Love Life]

Why would you have a live round STUCK in the chamber? Did you not seat deep enough and then beat the slide forward to get it all the way into battery and in process jam the bullet into the barrel and rifling? What does that have to do with light charges since it is unrelated to a squib or FTE after firing?

OP. Roll with your plan until the slide doesn't cycle anymore or you get a squib. As you go lower and lower, ensure you are checking the bore after each shot to ensure the bullet left the barrel.

[44 Special]

What is SEER?

One should spell out an acronym at least once. Not everybody knows what it means.

[nekshot]

thanks fellas, I figured it was not a issue but asking is easier then replacing a gun or worse.

SEER - is a secondery explosion in a rifle supposedly from too lite of a slow powder in the cartridge. Much info from others that can explain it better.

[35remington]

More correctly spelled SEE. As in Secondary Explosion Effect. Don't know where the "R" came from, but it doesn't belong there.

[dilly]

SEER is seasonal energy efficiency rating. Has to do with HVAC.

I have heard it as SEE myself, and am somewhat skeptical of the idea.

[bangerjim]

Why would you have a live round STUCK in the chamber? Did you not seat deep enough and then beat the slide forward to get it all the way into battery and in process jam the bullet into the barrel and rifling? What does that have to do with light charges since it is unrelated to a squib or FTE after firing?

OP. Roll with your plan until the slide doesn't cycle anymore or you get a squib. As you go lower and lower, ensure you are checking the bore after each shot to ensure the bullet left the barrel.


Lots.........the uber-light load did not have enough kick to totallly cycle the gun. Has nothing to with seating or OAL or anything like that. ALL 100% of my 45ACP rounds now work after using FCD and 451 sizing. 4 of the 5 very lite round cycled, but barely, the 5th one stuck part way into the chamber. Back in the shop/vise, I had to take a thin brass rod and gently tap the round up into the chamber (thru the mag cavity in the handle) to manually cycle it out.

Just something I ran into and thought the OP would like to know. None of my book-min loads have ever did that, so it sure looks to me it was cause by a very lite load in a semi.

I do no "beat" on any of my fire arms!!!!!!!

banger-j

[MostlyLeverGuns]

If your 1911 is functioning correctly, firing, ejecting, AND picking the next cartridge out of the magazine, I would not consider the load too light. I would want the pistol to function correctly after it is a little dirty, 100-200 rounds or more. Short cycling of the slide and of course stuck bullets are a problem. Remember, there are folks using recoil springs lighter than standard to successfully shoot lighter loads. Unpleasant recoil (you define) does not need to be part of the 'Fun' of shooting. Only endure recoil when you want or need the power.

[PULSARNC]

SEE ,s happen ,had it happen to me in a weather by vanguard luckily I escaped injury but the gun needs more than just a little Jb weld

[44man]

Recoil with the 1911 is only the heavy slide coming back, not from the load. the round is a wimp for recoil itself. SEE is not from a boolit that does not exit but the next shot with a stuck boolit can ruin a gun. SEE is a boolit that is moved and stops before a burn and all pressure will go backwards. Usually a reduced load of slow powder with a primer that will move a boolit/bullet into the leade before ignition making too much airspace. The bullet is a bore restriction.
The see is very common with many revolver loads and the gap saves so many from blown guns.

[Groo]

Groo here
+++++1 to 44man.
The SEE could be called a "Hang Fire".
Keith wrote about this with 2400 early on when bullets were undersized and/or crimp was not good.
But he got a bad burn and unburned powder in the gun.
To get a SEE requires many factors to line , not common but seen in both PPC and Cowboy action where light loads rule.

[Patrick56]

Hangfire is a different thing. It ´s the reason why you should wait a little before extracting a round that didn´t go off as supposed. SEE is more like a detonation that is able to wreck a gun totally. Has happened even with fast powders. A .308 win loaded with 0,20 grams of N320 with a 8 gram bullet blew up and the shooter nearly lost his eyes. Saved by quality shooting glasses.

[DrCaveman]

3 grains n320 blew up a 308 behind a 123 grain boolit?

Something was amiss there besides a "light powder charge"

If it was a jacketed boolit, then it was a foolish attempt.

Likely one got stuck in the barrel (no, damned near GUARANTEED). Second shot blows up gun.

I doubt a lead boolit of remotely appropriate diameter would become stuck, but would probably fart out the muzzle like a light BB gun.

Maybe im wrong.

SEE is not a concern for the 45 acp shooter, in 1911 platform. Im no expert, but i consider that statement fact

[Patrick56]

3 grains n320 blew up a 308 behind a 123 grain boolit?

Something was amiss there besides a "light powder charge"

If it was a jacketed boolit, then it was a foolish attempt.

Likely one got stuck in the barrel (no, damned near GUARANTEED). Second shot blows up gun.

I doubt a lead boolit of remotely appropriate diameter would become stuck, but would probably fart out the muzzle like a light BB gun.

Maybe im wrong.

SEE is not a concern for the 45 acp shooter, in 1911 platform. Im no expert, but i consider that statement fact
No Sir, no bullet stuck in the barrel. SEE, or as we call it, sub load detonation, is a well known effect. True that the 45 acp is not the first one to connect SEE with. SEE is one of the reasons why reloading manuals list a minimum load as well as a maximum load. Everything under that is on your own risk. True that jacketed bullets increase the risk. The example mentioned was about a half of the known minimum charge (0,40grams) listed for the .308 using N310. Maximum is 0,94grams. This case was well documented back in 1984.

[DougGuy]

Well, let's put it this way.. There are GOOD REASONS loading manuals have minimum recommended powder charges, and in all honesty, one SHOULD stay within published minimum and maximum charge weights. You don't get SEE events or KBs when you stay with published and WELL USED reloading data.

[dragon813gt]

They establish the minimum from finding the maximum. All they do is back it off a certain percentage. You assume all risk regardless of if you're using a published load or not. There can be a lot of room to go down in charge.

[DrCaveman]

No Sir, no bullet stuck in the barrel. SEE, or as we call it, sub load detonation, is a well known effect. True that the 45 acp is not the first one to connect SEE with. SEE is one of the reasons why reloading manuals list a minimum load as well as a maximum load. Everything under that is on your own risk. True that jacketed bullets increase the risk. The example mentioned was about a half of the known minimum charge (0,40grams) listed for the .308 using N310. Maximum is 0,94grams. This case was well documented back in 1984.

Well, sir, i must state that i respect the amount of research into subsonic rifle loads that you Finns have done. The US would do well to be so considerate to the aural health of its citizens. I work in the field of sound absorption/noise control, although unfortunately we do not (yet) build firearm suppression devices. In the coming years i hope to influence the company to venture such ways...but we shall see if that works out

I found a good resource of Finnish gunwriters, http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane2.html

There was a brief description of the event you describe. At this point i am still unclear as to how much the double-base constitution of n320 had to do with the problems, compared to single-base n310 (stated to be quite ideal for cat sneeze loads, and no problems reported that i saw). In any event, the type of bullet used in the disaster was not stated (that i saw) and the charge was indeed quite lower than i would expect to work based on the data shown on this site
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I still contend that proper crimp, proper COL, and a cautious deviation from the excesses of published data...whether min or max...is a safe way to avoid these problems. Change only one variable at a time, and work in small increments.

I say all this partly to justify my own use of ramshot competition in 30-30 and 30-06. I had great results in my 30-30 behind a 150 grain lee boolit... Havent tried the 30-06 yet

I cant find enough of the correct rifle powders at prices i can stomach to justify shooting 30-50 rounds in a day with 20-40 grains of powder consumption.

How i wish the powder situation would improve. $35 a pound is insane

[Newboy]

I think VV N320 is a single base powder.

[DrCaveman]

Newboy, it appears you are correct. Not sure where in that article i concluded otherwise. I guess the problem stemmed from the slower burn rate compared to n310 coupled with a further reduced charge.

I stand corrected.