I need a little help with my .44

[Ghugly]

My son and I have been shooting our little Bulldogs and having a good time with them but accuracy has been rather lackluster at best. After trying a lot of different combinations, I sort of settled on 6.5gr of Unique under a 250gr tumble lubed 429421 with a Federal LP primer in starline brass. No leading, relatively clean, and moderate recoil.

I was reading an article on loading for the Bulldog and the author said that the Bulldog suffers from a slow twist rate and shallow rifling. Because of that, it is necessary to drive heavy boolits fast and heavier boolits even faster. With that in mind, I started loading. What I ended up with today was the 250gr tumble lubed 429421 over 13.5gr of 2400 with a hard crimp and Federal LP Magnum primer. I only had 15 with that load and at 50 feet the last cylinder full put 3 into less than an inch with the other 2 just barely outside. I know this doesn't sound like much to a lot of you but to the two of us it was a revelation. We had come to the conclusion that we both suck and that there was little hope that we would ever stop sucking. Suddenly, there was hope.

The fly in the ointment is that out of a 20oz revolver that load is not one that I want to shoot a lot of (I can't get my son to shoot it at all, he took one look at the ball of flame and heard the bark and he was all through).

I just placed an order for the Lee 200gr RF. I'm hoping that I can load that to an accurate velocity with recoil that is pleasant to shoot. I would appreciate any input that you could provide. Am I headed in the right direction? Do any of you have a notion as to how hot that 13.5gr of 2400 under 250gr is? It isn't very comfortable to shoot and I don't want to grenade the gun, but it sure is nice to finally be able to hit something.

[9.3X62AL]

13.5 x 2400 is A LOT warmer than I would go in the Charter 44 Specials with 250 grain boolits. Such a load would likely get close to 1000 FPS in my M-624 x 6.5". I've run the Smith to 15.0 x 2400, but prefer "Skeeter's Load" of 7.5 x Unique--again, not recommended for the Charters.

I think your move toward shorter/lighter boolits is a good one to address the slow twist question, and to enable useful velocities without straining the platform--or the shooters. Assuming current SAAMI 44 Special pressure ratings, a velocity level of 825-850 FPS with the 200 grain castings is probably safe & reasonable.

[Lloyd Smale]

hate to say this buy the bulldogs ive played with did there best with 200 grain jacketed stuff. With the shallow rifling you may want to experiement with harder lead. I agree to with AL. that load is on the stiff side for a bulldog. theres not much meat in the clyinder walls on them. Id keep my loads down below 900 fps in them. You could possibly push a 200 to a 1000 but i wouldnt be doing it with 250s. MY suggestion would be to buy that 200 mold and play with between 5.5 and 7 grains of unique and vary primers alloys and bullet size till you find the best load and then live with it. A bulldog isnt a target gun and i wouldnt count on it shooting any better then 3 or 4 inch at 25 yards anyway.

[James C. Snodgrass]

I've been playing with the lee rn and gotten good accuracy out to 100 yds. I am shooting 7grs of Unique for about 900 fps from a 10" t/c and it is very consistent, I tried Bullseye and HS -6 but do believe the unique is better. Good luck James:coffee:

[Bret4207]

I am an unrepentant Bulldog lover. My particular example is more accurate than I am, but as anyone who's ever used one will testify she does "torque" a bit with heavier loads. I've not had wild groupings with ANY boolit, other than an undersized 429215 that was a major disappointment. I think I bought a 429215 GB 6 banger to rectify that problem...I think. I really need to catalog my mould collection.

Anyway, yes a 200 or even 180ish gr design would be better. Lee has a 200 that should work. I wish it was a bit more of a FP rather than a RN/FP. I have a Lee 180WC X 1 that I bought just for the BD in hopes I could develop a good 35 yard field load, something suitable for porcupines, bunnys, feral cats, snapping turtles, invading Canadian Armies, mean bulls and any other "varmit" whut needs pluggin'. Alas, my time is consumed with crime fighting, farming, wood cutting and keeping Dano67 in awe of my parenting skills. I think a 200 gr at 750-800 should stabilize and with a little tweaking a good load can be developed. Unique or a similar powder would be my choice, but something a bit faster might give better results. A good solid crimp in these light weight revolters is a good thing in my opinion.

Let us know what you find out. More info is always a good thing.

[xtimberman]

Sometimes, readin' articles on handloading for Bulldogs can get you in trouble! :) 13.5gr. 2400 w/250gr. LSWC is in the ~21,500-22,500 psi class and measures ~990-1025fps out of a 4" M-21 (depending on bullet design, seating depth, and other factors). JMO..., but too warm for steady loads in a Bulldog.

I had one of the early Charter Bulldogs - years before I cast my own bullets - and all I could find to shoot in it was .44 Special R-P and W-W factory ammo with the 246gr. soft lead RN and 240-250gr. SWCs to handload.

The front sight was waaay too short on my example to successfully shoot heavy bullets and have them hit close to the P.O.A without very heavy charges of powder. Those slow-moving factory rounds would hit an honest 8"-10" high to my POA at 15 yds! In fact, the shiny W-W Luballoy plated bullets were so slow, if you shot them at long range in bright sunlight, you could catch a glimpse of them flying off downrange! I would load up the commercially-cast 240s & 250s with charges similar to what you're mentioning and got them to hitting ~1" high to my POA at 15yds. Most all loads with that weight bullet were amazingly accurate in that short-barreled revolver at any distance. I used Unique, Herco, Bluedot, 2400, and W-540(HS-6). They were so accurate, I chose to ignore that some hit too high, and used the revolver as an infrequent shooter to keep it from loosening up with the warm loads. Too late. Mine must've started loosening up immediately - parts broke, the little swaged-on cylinder stop popped off and was lost, and Charter jacked around with me about getting things fixed. After I did finally get it patched up, I quickly traded it off.

Some time before I traded it, I was contemplating having someone add a little height to the front sight, when I found a local source of cast 185gr RNFPs and 200gr. SWCs. That solved the POA problem, and I could shoot my Bulldog with light and reasonably-warm loads that hit where I aimed. You'll want to shoot that gun a whole lot more when loading bullets in this weight range.

xtm

[lathesmith]

I have a six banger Lee 200gr FP 44, and I consider it my best boolit for my 44mags. I don't know how it will translate to your 44spl, but this slug is my favorite for creampuff 44 mag loads. I use light charges of Red Dot and Bullseye, and it is very accurate with no leading. I think you have made a fine choice!
lathesmith

[EDK]

Go to the Hogdon Cowboy Action Shooting booklet for some suitable loads for the little bulldog...or other similar sources. I like TITEGROUP. Loads for CAS are in the recoil/performance range you need.

For boolits, I use LYMAN 200 grain RNFP, the GLL group buy 44 full wadcutters and a variety of others to a lesser degree. Cliffs gunsmithing web site did show the discontinued LEE 208 grain full wadcutter mould for 44. The only problem I've had with the full wadcutters was a testing screw-up....I cast 20 pounds of Brinnell Hardness 9 and they leaded some with 6.0 of TITEGROUP in various 44 VAQUEROS; same boolit at 13 to 15 BH worked well with 6.0 TITEGROUP or 7.5 UNIQUE in MAGNUM GUNS AND BRASS! The soft stuff is getting used up with 4.0 of TITEGROUP.

This is a class of revolver you'll either love or hate. I recently sold a 3 inch S&W686 and 696 that sat unused in the safe for years. Great to carry, but I didn't.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[Ghugly]

Thanks guys. I think I got caught up in Elmer Keith lore. I was convinced that the 429421 was God's/Elmer's gift to humanity and was determined to make it shoot. I guess trying to make an elk load work in a 2 1/2" belly gun is a little nuts. That being said, it was still pretty cool to see a load that made it all come together.

xtimberman's experience seems to mirror mine. Factory loads shoot really high but, with the 2 Bulldogs I'm loading for, do more patterning than grouping. The 2400 load shot dead on point of aim and it was actually grouping.

I'm glad to hear that lathesmith has had luck with the Lee 200g FP. It seems like the right way to go.

EDK. I've tried 7.5gr of Unique under the 429421. It wasn't a good load for the Bulldog. Not accurate and it was the only time that I could actually feel the bones in my wrist grinding together (it didn't hurt, exactly, but it sure wasn't pleasant). I realize that you weren't suggesting that as a Bulldog load. I'm just saying that I've tried a lot of different loads. It is a little odd though. I don't have ready access to a chrono, so I can't swear to this. But, it really seemed that the 13.5gr of 2400 was a hotter load than the 7.5gr of Unique, yet it was less punishing to my wrist. Probably just my imagination, or the way I was holding my mouth or something. Perception can be really misleading sometimes.

[MT Gianni]

A 429421 and 5 gr of Green Dot is a 2" or less load in my older Charter @25 yards. It does print 3" left but I can deal with that. Alliant's max load is 5.4 gr. Gianni

[Ghugly]

OK, I was comparing apples to oranges-----groan. I bought a 4-gang 429421 from Zipdog and was trying that with the hot 2400 load. That was the one that shot great. I was so convinced that it had to do with the velocity that I didn't bother to try it with my standard Unique load. Yesterday I went out with my 429421's from my 2-gang mould and 429421's from the 4-gang mould, both loaded with 6.5grs of Unique. What a difference! The ones from the 4-gang mould group. The ones from the 2 gang mould pattern. The ones from the 2-gang mould have a full-size front driving band that is strongly sized by my .430 sizer and drop at 245grs. The ones from the 4-gang mould have a reduced size front driving band that the sizer doesn't even touch and drop at 250grs. My guess is that the Bulldog's almost nonexistent forcing cones like the reduced front driving band.

I'm pretty happy about the results. Zipdog's mould is probably not what Keith would have liked, but it works for me and the boolits drop like rain. If only one mould works, I'm glad it is the 4-gang mould.

I'm still anxious to try the 200gr Lee's. The mould should arrive in the next few days.

[Frank V]

Ghugly, I know I'm new to this site, but have been shooting .44 Specials for 45 years. I have to admit I too like the Bulldog. Try a light load of Trailboss under your 429421 & I think you will be surprised. I load a light load of Trailboss under a 240gr JHP also & have no trouble hitting a baseball sized clod out to 20 yards. I kinda like that gun.
I started using Trailboss just to get a fuller case in the .45 Colt & found I like it. I'ts very clean burning & has very small muzzle flash near dusk. You Can't get full power loads with it, but can equal factory .44 Special loads very easily. Try it you may enjoy it. Trailboss is not only for CAS shooters. Thanks Frank

[MT Gianni]

Welcome to the site Frank, hope that you continue to post. I'm in Whitehall. Gianni

[Frank V]

Thanks MT Gianni, this looks like a good site for information. Frank

[Swagerman]

Frank V, welcome to this site. I remember you over at Taurus Armed.com I was known as Tracker Backer C45 over there.

Thanks to a good friend on this site, I have an adequate supply of Lee HP 200 grain SWC that are dropping at 205 grains.

I enjoy using Trail Boss as well, its very clean burning.

Even after fowling up my .44 special model Taurus 441 with dirty powders like Unique, Bullseye, plus the lube residue from lead bullets...you can run a couple of rounds through loaded with Trail Boss and it cleans everything up slick as a whistle. This is an amazing powder that I hope to find a good load this spring.

Jim aka Swagerman

[Ghugly]

I just happen to have some Trail Boss on hand. I haven't tried it with this particular boolit, but I can fix that easily enough. I agree that it's clean burning and I like the idea of my cases being nearly filled. The little dab of Bullseye rattling around in the case always kind of bothered me. I've never done it, but I imagine I could squeeze 4 good loads of Bullseye into a .44 special case and at least 2 of Unique. With Trail Boss, that's never going to happen. I'm thinking that a moderate dose of Trail Boss under the Lee 200gr boolit might be a pretty nice plinker for me.

[Frank V]

Swagerman, Thanks for the welcome, I'm still pretty regular @ Taurus armed I remember your handle there too. Small world huh?
Ghugly, I think if you will try Trailboss you will like it you just can't get as much velosity as with Unique & some others, but for everyday practice,small game,& target practice I think you will like it.I am very pleased with the way it almost fills the case. I have tried to double charge a .45 Colt case & it almost overflows, you'd really have to be asleep to miss it & I don't think you'd get a bullet seated on it. I also like the Lyman 429421, I have shot a bunch of them & they always give me good accuracy.
I think you will like the Lee moulds, I have a couple & like them. Being aluminum you just have to be a little carefull with them. My .45 Colt sixgun really likes the 255gr flat nose. Lee moulds in my experience are good moulds. Is the 200gr mould the SWC? Good shooting. Frank

[Ghugly]

Hi Frank and welcome. The 200gr Lee is a round nose, flat point. Or, it's suppose to be if it ever gets here. I ordered from F&M Reloading Equipment for the first time and I miss the communication that I always got from Midway. Midway is a little more expensive but I kind of like to know what's going on with my orders.

[winchester243]

Thanks MT Gianni, this looks like a good site for information. Frank


Small world Frank, I live in Dillon too. I'm just getting into casting myself and have been aquiring all the stuff I need to get started. This site has been invaluable to me. I'll be ready to go in about a month.

[nvbirdman]

A lot of the other guys here seem to have found the same thing I did a few years ago. The Charter Bulldog likes 200gr bullets.
I always had a problem with 240s hitting high, then tried 200s and they hit POA.
I was at the range one day and a guy had a stainless Bulldog that he was VERY proud of. He was using 180s and insisted I try a few shots. I told him it was hitting low and he said he knew and didn't seem to care very much. I told him to try 200s but I think he was so impressed with his magic 180gr hollow points that he didn't really care where they hit.

[Ghugly]

A lot of the other guys here seem to have found the same thing I did a few years ago. The Charter Bulldog likes 200gr bullets.
I always had a problem with 240s hitting high, then tried 200s and they hit POA.
I was at the range one day and a guy had a stainless Bulldog that he was VERY proud of. He was using 180s and insisted I try a few shots. I told him it was hitting low and he said he knew and didn't seem to care very much. I told him to try 200s but I think he was so impressed with his magic 180gr hollow points that he didn't really care where they hit.

I hope so. I did find the load that will shoot to POA with 250gr Keiths but I don't think the Bulldogs or I would last very long shooting them. It was kind of cool though, dead on POA, not high, not low, not left, and not right. Sigh.

[xtimberman]

I'm running into a similar situation with the front sight on a S&W M-21. It's too low and of course makes the gun shoot high with my own bullets unless I really stoke 'em up with 2400.

My RCBS .44 KT mould drops bullets that weigh ~268gr. I have a Lyman 4-banger 429421 that casts 242 grainers, but that doesn't drop the weight enough to make much difference in P.O.I.

I see where Meister offers 185gr. and 200gr. .44 cal. bullets with a selection of sized diameters. I'm going to order a supply of each to see weight my revolver prefers before I buy another .44 cal. mould for this gun.

xtm

[Swagerman]

I like Meistercast bullets, they are semi-hard and swage well in my swaging equipment.

Jim

[EDK]

Try 200 grainers to lower the point of impact in the S&W M-21.

I'm using LYMAN 427666 at about 210 grains and the GLL group buy 44 wadcutters at about 195. They shoot about 3 inches lower in an assortment of 44 Original Size VAQUEROS (with 4 5/8, 5 1/2, and 7 1/2 barrels) than the 250 or 265 grainers (429667, 429244 or RD 432 265.)

TITEGROUP and Cowboy Action Shooting level loads have worked for me.


:redneck::cbpour::Fire: