Talk me out of it or into it - .30 Herrett Contender

[Gibbs44]

I went to one of the local gun stores around here looking for some large rifle magnum primers today. While I was in there I decided to look around, and got over to where they had the single shot rifles and saw a Contender G2 muzzle loader. This brought up if they ever got any Contender pistols in, they had one that was not on the floor yet. He brought it out, 30 Herrett was the chambering in a 10" barrel. It was an old flat side, I don't know what generation, but it opened relatively easy and locked up like a bank vault. The bluing was nice and the wood only had a few little dings on it, but was the two screw type forearm. It wore a Burris 2x scope.

So my dilemma, do I want it (I kind of want it). I've been thinking about it all day today. So far what I can tell about the cartridge is the brass isn't super hard to make, but the dies are relatively expensive since it is not what we'd call a fashionable chambering any more, one time purchase though. Brass can be had from what I understand (I have not checked), from EABco for $30/hundred, or I can make my own. Are the custom step down dies the only option in forming the brass, or is there some other method to form the brass that is not so costly?

Next is the price, it was $499.00, but it comes with a bandoleer holster. I did not see if it was some sort of custom rig or anything like that, so I don't know if it's a $30 holster, or a $100 holster. So it is certainly not a steal or anything. I'm sure I could bide my time and find something on gun broker in a chambering that I already load for, but I can't lay my hands on those before I laydown the cash.

Thanks,

Sully

[dougader]

If you look at the Hornady data, the 30 Herrett equals or bests 30-30, both with 10" barrels. The 30-30 wakes up in a 14" barrel, but if you want a 10" gun for easier handling I think the Herrett is the answer.

You might ask if they'll consider closer to $400 for the pistol...

[charlie b]

I had a 14" barrel version and loved it. Shot better than I could. If I did everything right I could get MOA out of it (I had a 3x Leupold scope on it).

I liked the longer barrel on Contenders, even though I had a 10" in .357mag that was a good shooter. I either shot from sitting supported or prone.

[Lonegun1894]

I have a 10" with a Simmons 4X mounted and it is great. One thing you may want to look at is if it is a 1:10" twist or the older 1:14" twist. The 1:14" allows you to use softer cast bullets without leading and also allows slightly higher velocities based on what I have read. Mine is the 1:14" ROT, and I have not been able to make it lead the bore with anything as long as I size it to .311". I'd say it comes down to do you mind making the brass. If you're willing, I say go get it. If not, then just get a .30-30, cause while the performance on paper is better in the 10" .30H than it is in a 10" .30-30, I seriously doubt any animal or paper parget will know the difference. Mine does 2" or better at 100yds with a rest, but has given me a few .75-1.0" groups and does so frequently enough to rub it in that it shoots better than I'm capable of on a regular basis. I mean, if it was a one time thing, it would be one thing and I would call it a fluke, but it gives me a group that size every 2nd or third trip to the range, so just enough to rub it in that I need more practice.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

frames sell for about $250. grips & forend $45 barrels $175 scope $125 is this the holster http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taurus-Judge-Hunting-Rig-holster-made-for-all-barrel-lengths-/301452498591 i would buy the Tender and trade the barrel and get a 30/30

[chuckbuster]

You actually came in here and asked to be talked out of something shooting related......

[Rick Hodges]

You actually came in here and asked to be talked out of something shooting related......

Hahahaha! :oops:

[Lonegun1894]

Everyone get your chestwaders on...

Chuckbuster has a point. I'll try. Ok, the .30 Herrett is horrible. You have to load you own cause they don't sell it at Walmart. That means you also have to cast (since you're here), and size, and lube, and probably GC. And then you have to form your own brass, and work a press, and, and... So you see, it is a horrible idea that will lead to you having to go to the range, and there's loud noises there, and I bet every single one of us here is just scared to death of loud noises. I know I am. And I also just hate going to the range. :kidding::drinks:

There! How's that? Are you talked out of it yet?

[Gibbs44]

Oh well, it's a moot point now. I went in there to pick it up, and the price had gone up another $40 since yesterday, bringing up the price to $540. I took a little something to act as part of a trade. There was just too much of a gap between what I wanted to give and what he wanted to get. Meh, I guess I'll just have to keep my eye out for another one. My deciding factor to go back today was when I saw that GRUMPA made brass for it, and that solved the biggest problem, except the whole money thing.

I'll find one someday, just not today. Thanks folks.

[Hickok]

Since you are still looking here is my advice.

Having owned a .30 Herret many years ago, my advice is to go to a 14" barrel chambered in 30/30. A lot less trouble as 30/30 cases are plentiful, and in a 14" barrel, the 30/30 is superior. (Just my experience)

[rbertalotto]

30 Herret is easily one of the best cartridges you'll ever shoot out of a short barrel Contender. I have one and shot many game animals with it and used it extensively in IHMSA for years.
http://images20.fotki.com/v207/photos/2/36012/13654223/IMG_0243-vi.jpg

http://images52.fotki.com/v728/photos/2/36012/13654223/IMG_0244-vi.jpg

[MT Gianni]

If it were me i would look long and hard at a 7-30 Waters in 10, 12 or 14 inch lengths. Get a 7 mm flat nose mold about 130-145 gr and don't look back.

[plesant3]

With a half-dozen or more different caliber barrels already for my G1 Contender (with the STERLING buttplate!), I recently added a 7mm TCU barrel. Never even considered the 30 Herrett before, but I'm so happy with the TCU that I may just have to give it a try

...although my .223 brass supply (from which the TCU is formed) is much larger than my .30-30 (isn't the Herrett made from .30-30?)

[Lonegun1894]

Yes, from .30-30. After reading recently about 7mm TCU, I'm not sure you would gain much adding a .30 Herrett if the main intent was to punch paper, cause the 7mm TCU sounds like an EXCELLENT round, but I love my .30 Herrett, and keep thinking about adding a 7mm TCU. So you may want to ignore me and just get one. I mean, think of all the .30 molds out there that you can't use in a 7mm TCU but can in the .30 Herrett... :)

[buckweet]

Every one should have both.
The 7tcu is a breeze to load for.
The .30 Herrett is fun to load for.
Piece of cake.
Definitely get both of them.

[country gent]

I think 30 herret can be formed one pass thru the sizing die, It just needs to be set to produce the correct headspace, so the case is just snug when action closes. The bigger issue is almost 1/4" needs to be trimmed off to finish the case. Its a great round and very good performance. A trim die or small cutoff saw and fixture will speed up trimming.

I have 357 herret and the only drawback is the case forming trimming. But once a couple hundred cases are done you may never do it again

[GARD72977]

I would pass at 499. It just is not that interesting . Not saying it's not a good deer round. If it had a longer neck it would make a good cast Boolits round.

I have seen encore 308s for 499 or less

[45workhorse]

DON'T do it!!!!!
If one of them dang things gets a foot hold in your door, THEY multiple!
It seems like every time I open the safe, THERE's another one!:bigsmyl2:

[Guesser]

Form dies are not needed, not even wanted; one pass and trim to length.
Always set your sizing die to head space on the shoulder, not the rim. I used one for years as a varmint rig, cast 311359 and took gophers and chucks out way farther than I thought possible. Good cartridge and a lot of fun.....

[stubshaft]

I competed with a 30 herrett in sillywett production class. I managed to win a fair amount of medals along the way. Back in the day, I used to use brass for the .375 Super Mag pistol. It was the perfect length and would only take one pass to form into herrett's.

[Greg S]

As above, 10" the Herret, 14" the 30-30. I recall reading Bob's article years ago when it was first introduced. Long ago I was looking for a 357 Herrett but could never locate one. Now the problem is compounded by trying to find a barrel and dies.

[Preacher Jim]

I started with the 30 herrett when they first hit the market have hunted deer and lot of varmits with good success. Them added 357 herrett I have never been without at least one barrel in each.

[Preacher Jim]

I started with the 30 herrett when they first hit the market have hunted deer and lot of varmits with good success. Them added 357 herrett I have never been without at least one barrel in each. They are easy to make cases for and great hand gun hunting rounds.

[mrk1500]

This is an old post but did you guys notice the op said "old flat side"? If I remember correctly they didn't make many of these and are worth some bucks today..... just sayin

[TCLouis]

GregS
I'm thinking that Lee still lists 357 Herrett dies as well as 30.

[str8wal]

This is an old post but did you guys notice the op said "old flat side"? If I remember correctly they didn't make many of these and are worth some bucks today..... just sayin

Depends if it has any etching on it. All the old Contenders are "flat sided" but only a few were clean of any engraving. Those are worth some bucks. If you like to form brass, a 10" 30 Herrett is a good option. If not, the 357 Max might be a better option. Similar performance without having to make and fireform brass.

[Murphy]

Back in the mid to latter 1900's, I got the Contender fever. After a few tries with various calibers, I wound up going with the 7/30 Waters. Amazing accuracy and I wound up taking a few deer with it. I also found out that .22 Hornet brass wouldn't withstand more than 5 full pressure loads without getting case head separation. I'd picked up a .22 LR Match Grade barrel 14" in length for practice and fun. That Contender changed the way I had previously looked at break open handguns/rifles. When I moved on up in caliber, I picked up a .30 Herrett. I had several mis-fires and just didn't stick with it. Which, is how I wound up with the 7/30 Waters in a 14" barrel length.

Looking back, I sort of wish I had just gone with the 30-30 and been done with it. No case forming, plentiful brass...etc.

Good luck with your decision and choice. Caution though, a Contender can be addictive!

Murphy

[curioushooter]

It sort of depends upon what you want to do.

If you want to shoot 200 yard silhouette it is a top choice for that. If you want to do field pistol it is over powered (32-20 gets the job done). If you want to hunt deer there are better choices I think. I personally do not like small bores in handguns, even Contenders, if you intend to hunt deer. I have a 32-20 10" Contender and it really impresses me with its performance, but I use 357 Maximum or 30 Herrett's big brother 357 Herrett for deer. Case forming for 357 Herrett is pretty straightforward once you accept that you will have to anneal the cases (https://guidetograssandguns.wordpress.com/2018/01/21/cartridge-conversion-from-30-30-to-357-herrett/). The dies are available for 357 Herrett so I assume it's not so bad to get 30 Herrett.
One thing though...and this applies to all rimmed bottlenecked brass in Contenders. They actions don't "lock up like a bank vault" despite what you think. The design is not particularly rigid (http://www.lasc.us/BellmExperimentContenderEncore.htm) and it is a good idea to have a little free play with the headspace. You may find out it is necessary to full-length size after every shot to set the shoulder back, as I did with 357 Herrett. I suspect the problem is even worse with 30 Herrett. After converting a 100 or so cases you get more reluctant to shoot because you realize that you are just wearing them out. It is the reason why I switched to 357 Max which I believe outperforms 30 Herrett overall. I find 32-20 brass seems to last longer, probably because it is such a diminutive case, so the stretchy-ness of the contender action doesn't result in much distortion over time.
I don't know if 30 Herrett T/C barrels are generally good or not. The 7mm Waters barrels are almost always good. The 30-30 barrels are usually not. It sort of depends upon who cut the chamber I think. Part of the reason why contender barrels tend to multiply is that many of their barrels suck and guys are always swapping and trading looking for the good one that shoots well.
I personally would not buy a contender barrel that could not be re-chambered to another cartridge for this reason. 30 Herrett could be re-chambered to 30-30 and re-bored to a variety of cartridges, so it has that going for it.

[Lloyd Smale]

back 30 years ago if you didn't have one you just weren't cool. Don't know why it faded away into oblivion.

[Geraldo]

Step #1 for buying a wildcat TC barrel is to see if dies are available.
Step #2 is to see if you can afford them or stand the wait for custom. ;)

My preference is to buy a barrel and dies together, but that doesn't mean you won't be buying special forming dies or other parts.

If you just want to shoot, buy something with factory ammo and be done with it. If you want to learn more about reloading, start buying wildcats.

[charlie b]

...............One thing though...and this applies to all rimmed bottlenecked brass in Contenders. They actions don't "lock up like a bank vault" despite what you think. The design is not particularly rigid and it is a good idea to have a little free play with the headspace. You may find out it is necessary to full-length size after every shot to set the shoulder back, as I did with 357 Herrett. I suspect the problem is even worse with 30 Herrett. After converting a 100 or so cases you get more reluctant to shoot because you realize that you are just wearing them out................

My old one did not have any problem with headspace. And I backed off the dies a bit to not reset the shoulder when reloading. I wore out cases after 10-20 reloadings. Most of the time case necks split but some would show case stretch near the base. The case necks were more my doing since I neck turned them after forming and did not anneal them.

IIRC, Herrett instructed to not full length resize specifically to keep from stretching the cases every time.

[rking22]

I like the little Herrett, very efficient little thing. The brass should be formed and maintained as close to "0" headspace as possiable, it will last a long time that way and be more accurate. Same is true of all the rimmed bottle necked rounds in the Contender. I once had the 30 in both a 14 and a 10 inch, one had to go as the chambers were enough different to be a pain. I am not organized enough to keep seperate brass for the same cartridge in the same gun, just not worth the effort. I found a 14 inch 3030 and now settled on 14 inch 3030 and 10 inch 30H, it was designed around the 10 inch length. The 10 inch 3030 I had gave much more muzzle blast for little gain over the 10 inch 30H. Now the 14 inch is a different story. Be aware, a lot of the data for the 30H and 357H is pretty hot for a Contender. Both are capable of stretching a frame if pushed too far. Look for pressure tested data and I consider 40,000 cup my limit. It's a fun round but I would just go 3030 in a 14 if I wanted 30 cal. I prefer the 357H, it is really a fun round and likes the RCBS 200 cast really well.

[curioushooter]

It is impossible to keep the headspace zero. When you fire it the case flows back and forward. The shoulder will probably bump the chamber next shot and therefore isn't headspacing on the rim. If this happens again the action may not even close completely. Furthermore the actions are rarely square with the chamber, so you and up with a case that isn't perfectly round. It may not go in with any direction next time. In short: you want a little headspace (http://www.lasc.us/bellmHeadspace.htm) in contenders for a number of reasons. They are not bolt actions. I use the Hornady dies for 357H and it gives very detailed instructions on how to use the minimal proper headspace with the FL die. I completely wasted money having a custom Lee collet neck sizing die. Sure the neck tension will be right but after one or two firings of 357H the shoulder needs to go back. I aimed for 10 reloads and never had a problem. That said I have 357 max cases that go ten reloadings before they need a trim! No lube. Just run them through a cheap 357 mag carbide die.

[Kenstone]

Depends if it has any etching on it. All the old Contenders are "flat sided" but only a few were clean of any engraving. Those are worth some bucks. If you like to form brass, a 10" 30 Herrett is a good option. If not, the 357 Max might be a better option. Similar performance without having to make and fireform brass.

No frame side engraving guns were sold thru IHMSA with serial numbers that contained the calibers, like IHMSA30Hxxxx.
I know because I bought one but have since sold it.
I do still have the Hornady dies though, and some formed brass. formed from both 30-30 and 225win.
The 225 win brass has both a higher tensile strength and thicker wall that requires neck-turning, but has a smaller capacity
:mrgreen:

[rking22]

We have had different experiences, I guess. Gotta do what works for you. Personally , I don’t want the case headspacing on the rim, I headspace on the shoulder and have no issues with chambering again in the same barrel. As far as out of square, my two frames are close enough to work, ymmv

[Geezer in NH]

Had one in the 70's got rid of it after I got a 30/30 barrel.

Wildcat that to me was a pest.

[charlie b]

We have had different experiences, I guess. Gotta do what works for you. Personally , I don’t want the case headspacing on the rim, I headspace on the shoulder and have no issues with chambering again in the same barrel. As far as out of square, my two frames are close enough to work, ymmv

This was my experience too. I had RCBS dies and they had very specific instructions for initial forming to make sure the headspace was properly set at the shoulder. I remember the initial fire forming load had to be tight enough that the barrel just barely locked up. Subsequent reloads were set to make sure that headspace did not change.

[jem102]

I had a 14" barrel version and loved it. Shot better than I could. If I did everything right I could get MOA out of it (I had a 3x Leupold scope on it).

I liked the longer barrel on Contenders, even though I had a 10" in .357mag that was a good shooter. I either shot from sitting supported or prone.

I have 14" in .30 Herrett and it shoots great groups with the Nosler 125 gr. Ballistic Tips. I also have 14's in .357 Herrett and .35 Rem both of which like cast boolits.

[Three44s]

My 30 Herret 10” does not do well if the shoulder of the case is head spaced snug. I have to push the shoulder back ever so slightly or my Contender will not fire, just click. What is happening is that the action is just enough out of battery that whatever safety linkage that it is built with causes it to misfire when the action is closed on a slightly longer case.

I like the 30 Herret and an even better option is to rechamber to a no trim 30 Herret. This is the body of the Herret case but a full length 30-30 case. The reason for less boiler room in this cartridge was to enhance performance in a ten inch barrel.

I have a 14” in 30-30 and it is also a gem and would be a better choice than a 14” in the Herret in my opinion due to not having to futz with case modifications. But I consider a 10” and 14” Contender as apples and oranges, two different worlds.

I also run the 7 mm TCU but in 14” and 21” and that is a gem. A 10” in the TCU would be fine but I do not have one of those. My 10” Herret is enough to satisfy my 10” fetish and there are better mold choices in 30 caliber than in 7mm (lighter boolits).

One other point about the 7mm TCU is that the free bore on those barrels makes that cartridge more accurate with heavy bullets and not as great for varminting, IMO.

I think the 7 mm Waters might actually be a better fit to run the gamut of lighter 7mm slugs but that is just a guess on my part.

Three44s

[curioushooter]

If you want it to headspace on the shoulder then 35 Rem is what you should be using.

Look. I am not expert, but Mike Bellm IS. I strongly encoruage you to read the links the the articles he has written. His observations are exactly my own.

[Duckiller]

How many wildcats do you have in your safe? I believe everyone should have one. More than that and you are a masochist.

[rking22]

245877

Above is screenshot from Blem’s webpage. Shows rimmed case head spaced on the shoulder with .001 clearance to breech block. Typical headspace in a boltgun is at least 5 times that and .001 is within the elastic limits of the brass. The frame will flex some to increase that but if it is stretching brass every firing and they will not rechamber then that load is too warm for my comfort in a Contender.

5 wildcats in my safe, and yes none of them do anything a factory cartridge doesn’t do just as well. Just interesting to fiddle with, I guess. I included 256win in the 5 because it is a case forming critter now days. 2 are my creations, a 32-20 equal on a 38 special case and a 35 Rem equal on a 308 case with long neck. Then the 2 Herrera. I always tell new shooters to go factory and make life easy.

[6string]

I shot Contenders back in the 80s, mostly for silhouette, but also just for the fun of messing with all the Different cartridges. A local shop discontinued their T/C line and sold all their barrels in stock for $30 each. By the time I got there, it had largely been picked over. Got a 10" 30-30 and 357 Herrett barrel, and a 14" 357 Herrett barrel. The 30-30 was considered to be an "uninformed" choice back then, because it wasn't a "cool" wildcat. Elsewhere, I got a few of the usual barrels: 357, 44, 22, etc. Plus, I had a few friends with other stuff: the TCU barrels, a 357/44 Bain & Davis barrel, etc.
I found out quickly that the Contender was a money pit. My reloading was mostly for revolvers, so I was suddenly spending a lot more for powder, projectiles (yes, the j-word), brass, etc.
But, then there were all the extra gadgets. The 30-30 went from being a dud to my favorite just because I switched from RCBS dies (they resized way too much) to Redding dies w/ a neck sizing die. By then, I was getting into water quenched cast bullets, and enjoying the results.
The 357 Herrett barrels just didn't work. The 10" was a dud, accuracy-wise. The 14" was better, but mostly only with jacketed bullets. The RCBS 357-sil bullet was OK. Oh yeah, the 357 mag barrel was worthless. Interestingly, the 357/44 B&D seemed to offer a lot of what the Herretts would do, at least as far as pistol weight bullets.

From a technical standpoint, I agree with what curiousshooter and rking22 have said.
Bolt gun rules don't apply. More like lever gun, in some ways. Both my Contenders needed servicing, as they started to misfire. I was told this was due to a bit of frame stretch which in turn caused the lock-up safety feature to act erratically.
Also, I had problems with some of the parts. The investment castings really weren't the best choice, even though the gun was literally designed around that technology. At least T/C was good about spare parts.
My understanding of the barrel problems was that it had a lot to do with the OAL of the cartridge vs the length of the barrel lug, combined with their welding method.
Belm, Bullberry Barrel Works, and SSK were doing well providing higher end products and services to improve the Contender, but it was becoming apparent that you could sink several times the cost of the gun into improvements only to find you're still basically stuck with the limitations (design and quality) of the T/C manufactured frame.
I contemplated rechambering a barrel or two, or even buying one of the spendy custom barrels.
In the end, I just bailed and got rid of all the Contender stuff. No regrets since.

Jim

[jem102]

I headspace my .30 Herrett cases on the shoulder and used .375 Win brass to make to make them. Never had a problem and no problems with 10-12 reloadings.