Bullet notching on the cheap?

[andyt53]

So today I was showing a coworker the BT Sniper notched bullets and explaining how it was done. He is a shotshell reloader and brought something to my mind. He showed me what a crimp starter looks like for shotshells. Could one use a shotshell crimp starter to notch bullets? Of course you would have to rig something up to make it work. It was just a thought to maybe get me the notching feature until I can buy the correct die.

I have never seen any shotgun reloading stuff, so all of this is new to me. But once I saw the crimp starter, it looked similar in shape to a blank crimping die. Which in turn can be used to notch bullets before point forming. Reason I ask about using the shotshell crimp starter is because one can be had for a fair amount less than either the notching die or a blank crimp die. So what does the group think, yay or nay?

Edit: this is the one that brought this all to my attention
http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u366/AndyT53/Guns%20and%20Ammo/651FBE1A-A61A-4616-8C9F-6C620F53AF52.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/AndyT53/media/Guns%20and%20Ammo/651FBE1A-A61A-4616-8C9F-6C620F53AF52.jpg.html)

[mold maker]

If you can keep everything centered it should work. Your actually just bending, not cutting.

[Utah Shooter]

Check this out http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?162728-shotshell-crimp-starter-without-a-press I am pretty sure that whatever is being made to "notch" is not anything further from https://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/bc Not sure if that is expensive compared to the super crown.

[Utah Shooter]

Or swaging/forging if no metal is being removed:takinWiz:
:genius:

Brother find a rope, you know what to do.

Not sure if I do follow but thank you for the clarity....

[andyt53]

I know that the case is only being creased/folded/swaged or whatever and not cutting. I may order one just to play around with. $30 isn't much money at all compared to other things.

I sense some hostility. Can we please keep this **** out of this thread please? A forum for learning and general knowledge, not a forum/thread for bickering/name calling or whatever else. There may be a dedicated thread for that. If I'm taking post #5 and 6 wrong, then I apologize for assuming there was hostility.

[andyt53]

Joe, I did take a quick glance at the thread about crimping shotshells with no press. I had the idea to place the Super Crown at the bottom of a gutted Lee expander die. Then use a coupling nut on the inside of the die threaded to the Super Crown and a screw with washer at the top of the die. To lock the Super Crown to the die. I realize the newly formed "notching" function will be the lowest point on the die. And hopefully it still threads into a press. I will try to figure something else out if that dkesnt work out.

I also have looked at the blank crimping dies that CH4D offeres. They do sell just a blank crimp form die for roughly $44 and an actual blank crimp die for $88. If the $44 option would work, I will scrap the Super Crown idea and just go that route. But I have no clue what that die looks like as there are no pictures. Does anybody have a picture of what the blank crimp form looks like compared to the actual blank crimp die?

[anotherred]

That should work. Find out the diameter so you'll know it you can attach it to a piece of threaded 7/8" stock or a modified die. Would be a pain threading it in from the bottom of the press all the time.

[andyt53]

Do you think the brass crimp starter used as a notching tool would wear out quick due to it being brass on brass? Or should it be fine since my cases are fully annealed?

[SOFMatchstaff]

I was thinking the same thing on the wear issue of the brass tool. I have them in use or the 410 and 16 gauge, and have a steel unit I made for the .355 die. Not enough time on it to really prove its performance. I set it up with a hollow pointing / alignment pin, the nose profile is angular instead of radiused, so not real pleasing to the eye....

[Cane_man]

whats the die material is too made of? doesn't take much pressure to notch the cases

[andyt53]

whats the die material is too made of? doesn't take much pressure to notch the cases

If you're asking what the shotshell crimp starter I posted a picture of is made of, it's solid brass. If that's not what you're asking, then I'm sorry, I dont know what you meant.

I do understand it doesnt take much pressure to notch the case, but rather have a steel piece instead of brass. I could simply make one with one of them double angle cutter thingies on a mill, but I don't own a mill or lathe and have no access to one. That's my next investment after I purchase my 224 swage kit from BT.

[Utah Shooter]

I would rather have the steel as well vs brass. I do think though that with your cases annealed and being rather thin compared to the crimp starter you could get away with it for a while. Not as long as you would with steel but annealing does make brass pretty soft.

[andyt53]

Update: ended up purchasing a PW 20 gauge steel crimp starter. It's too wide to go thru the die hole on a press. So I have to unscrew it off the die when I want to change dies. It should be okay since I plan on setting it up when I have a bunch to do, and I dont plan on notching all my swaged bullets. But it works better than I thought it would. Here are some pictures.
http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u366/AndyT53/Guns%20and%20Ammo/D01594E8-78B4-4438-90B7-42B023530A7E.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/AndyT53/media/Guns%20and%20Ammo/D01594E8-78B4-4438-90B7-42B023530A7E.jpg.html)
http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u366/AndyT53/Guns%20and%20Ammo/4E243451-5565-475F-B600-5AF92788BB43.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/AndyT53/media/Guns%20and%20Ammo/4E243451-5565-475F-B600-5AF92788BB43.jpg.html)

[mold maker]

Hornady XTPs have nothing on yours. Way to go.

[goblism]

I think those look quite impressive!

[andyt53]

Hornady XTPs have nothing on yours. Way to go.
Thank you for the motivation. I'm pretty happy with it. Im thinking about reducing the diameter of the notching tool so I can make it easier to install/remove from the press. But like I said, I dont plan on notching all of them. Maybe only 50 here and there.

[garandsrus]

Did you notch them after point forming? I think that Bt's tool is used to notch the brass before point forming. It would be interesting to see the difference.

[andyt53]

Before point forming

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Something made to crimp shotgun cases may not be hard enough to go on notching brass indefinitely. It might be an idea to case-harden it.

[andyt53]

Something made to crimp shotgun cases may not be hard enough to go on notching brass indefinitely. It might be an idea to case-harden it.

This may be true. That's why I searched for a steel crimp starter. Eventhough it's a soft metal (brass) on steel. Im currently researching on how to harden it. I have no experience and know very little about hardening metal.

[DukeInFlorida]

Um, you can't "harden" brass....

It would only work if you found a steel version of the tool.

[andyt53]

Um, you can't "harden" brass....

It would only work if you found a steel version of the tool.
Read a few posts back. I purchased a PW STEEL crimp starter. So im looking into hardening it.

edit: post number 13 to be exact.

[Utah Shooter]

Um, you can't "harden" brass....

It would only work if you found a steel version of the tool.

If this is the case (no pun intended) then why do we anneal brass to soften it back up? Or is that not what annealing is?

[hardcase54]

http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/machinery/Shop-Practice-V1/Hardening-And-Annealing-Brass.html#.VSjRKJM7eUk

[zippidydoodah]

Have you tried notching plain lead bullets? If so, how do they shoot/impact?

[zippidydoodah]

It should work harden over time with usage then.

[ncbearman]

Great job andy! So for those of us (me) [smilie=s: that are new to this would you mind posting a pic on the set up you use to do this? ie; I'm not getting a mental pic of how you crimp before point form. How do you get this in the press? Also, do you think it would work on a half jacket? Thanks in advance. Great looking boolit. Better than mine.

[BenW]

If this is the case (no pun intended) then why do we anneal brass to soften it back up? Or is that not what annealing is?
With steel, you can use a heat treatment to either soften (anneal) or harden a sample. Most non-ferrous alloys don't harden when quenched. With brass, you can use heat to go softer, but not harder.

[Hickory]

You can case harden it by putting the part in a threaded steel pipe surrounded with bone meal, be sure that the part dose not touch the inside of the pipe by at least one inch.
Cap both ends and put the pipe containing the part in a fire that will burn for at least one hour, this will cause the part to pick up carbon from the bone meal down into the metal to about two or three thousands.
I've done some small parts in the past this way and they are still hard and working well.

[andyt53]

Great job andy! So for those of us (me) [smilie=s: that are new to this would you mind posting a pic on the set up you use to do this? ie; I'm not getting a mental pic of how you crimp before point form. How do you get this in the press? Also, do you think it would work on a half jacket? Thanks in advance. Great looking boolit. Better than mine.

I'm not sure about crimping a half jacket. But the tool is istalled in a Lee blank die with a bolt. I dont have a picture of the set up at the moment. I will take one when I get home later today. But I do have a picture of the bullet after crimp starting and right before the final point form. I will post it in just a second.

[andyt53]

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u366/AndyT53/Guns%20and%20Ammo/188A9B3C-D834-48FA-9F33-5DAB54DCE894.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/AndyT53/media/Guns%20and%20Ammo/188A9B3C-D834-48FA-9F33-5DAB54DCE894.jpg.html)

The way I do it is as follows:

I flare the 9mm case to easily accept my core. Then after all the cores are seated, I change dies to the one with my "notching die". A pull of the press handle causes the seated core and case to crimp sort of like a blank. After the cases get the notching/folding, they get ran thru the point forming die to finish up the seaged bullet.

I am currently using my Lee turret press with a head that containes the flaring die and my home made notching die. That way I dont have to disassemble my notching die every time since the shotshell crimp starter is too bit to fit thru the 7/8-14 hole for the die.

Edit: I'm not using the turret press to swage with. Only to prep for swaging. Just to make that clear.

[andyt53]

You can case harden it by putting the part in a threaded steel pipe surrounded with bone meal, be sure that the part dose not touch the inside of the pipe by at least one inch.
Cap both ends and put the pipe containing the part in a fire that will burn for at least one hour, this will cause the part to pick up carbon from the bone meal down into the metal to about two or three thousands.
I've done some small parts in the past this way and they are still hard and working well.
Good to know, thank you. I will look into this method.

[uncleskippy]

andyt53

How did you attach the crimp starter to your press?

Thanks

[andyt53]

andyt53

How did you attach the crimp starter to your press?

Thanks

I just realized I never did post a picture of it like I said I would. I'm at work at the moment and can't take a picture. But the steel crimp starter I have has female threads in the center, can't remember what size. But I gutted an old Lee expander to use just the body. Got a bolt long enough to go thru the die and grab the threads, placed a washer at the top of the die then centered the crimp starter and torqued it down.

I also mounted this on a spare turret head for my Classic Cast turret. Since thecrimp starter is too big to just be screwed into a press without removing. I only use the turret press to expand, lightly seat my cores and to notch my bullets. The point forming is done on my Classic Cast single stage. I will try to remember to get a picture when I get home to give you a better understanding of this set up. My mind has been in many places recently :/

[guywitha3006]

Here is another idea, what is the diameter of a RCBS/Redding Chamfer/Deburring "rocket"? if the little pilot notch was cut off I wonder if it could just be epoxied into a die blank/lee universal decapper? should be able to screw in from the top that way.

[andyt53]

All the ones I've came across only have three edges on them. I was wanting 6, but it does work. Lol I tried it. Heres a picture of my turret head with a few other dies on it.
http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u366/AndyT53/Guns%20and%20Ammo/72A4A0F4-E514-41CE-8817-20F4AC72A5B9.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/AndyT53/media/Guns%20and%20Ammo/72A4A0F4-E514-41CE-8817-20F4AC72A5B9.jpg.html)

Notice how the crimp starter is wider than the die body. I opted to put it on this turret instead of the single stage so I didnt have to take it a part every time I wanted to use it.

[guywitha3006]

Not sure of your personal definition of cheap, but I just ordered one from optics planet(find a discount code and its better yet) for $80 free shipping. Almost like it was designed for yuo exact needs lol.

[andyt53]

Not sure of your personal definition of cheap, but I just ordered one from optics planet(find a discount code and its better yet) for $80 free shipping. Almost like it was designed for yuo exact needs lol.
Ordered one what? Crimp starter? If so, thats weird because I payed $23 if I remember correctly for the one in the picture.

[guywitha3006]

Sorry I was typing it at work. I thought I included the link to Hornady's die 22-45 cartridge blank making die. I meant to say I paid $80 for that. I didn't know how cheap you are looking as it looks like a canned solution. 6 points and designed to fold brass.

[andyt53]

Yeah I wasn't going to shell out $80 for it at the time. This was more of a pretty low cost temporary solution. And it works well in my opinion.

Post some pictures of your end product using the Hornady die. I may end up ordering one if it works better that the one Im using.

[uncleskippy]

Thanks for the images. It gave me a better concept.

[andyt53]

You're welcome

[guywitha3006]

I actually ordered one of the ponsen warren crimpers but then I came across the Hornady version and thought I wouldn't have to mess with it. I will try to post pictures when I get around using it. I saw the "progressive core seating" thread and was trying to plan ahead. If you search, optics planet almost always has a 10% off coupon somewhere. I got one and so it was closer to $60.


Yeah I wasn't going to shell out $80 for it at the time. This was more of a pretty low cost temporary solution. And it works well in my opinion.

Post some pictures of your end product using the Hornady die. I may end up ordering one if it works better that the one Im using.

[Forrest r]

All of these were made using a hornady notch die. It's super easy to setup and use.

Some 380acp cases with the cores set in them and some notched. These 147gr hp's will be used in 38spl's/357's (.357) or in a 9mm (.356) by simply sizing them after the bullet is swaged. I swage these to .357 to use for the 38spl's/357's and run them thru a lee push thru sizer to make them into 147gr hp's for the 9mm's.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/coreampnotch_zps5f78b677.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/coreampnotch_zps5f78b677.jpg.html)

The finished bullets, put a heavy canalure in these for playing around with full house loads in a 357 revolver that has a muzzle break.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/20038s_zps31b10993.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/20038s_zps31b10993.jpg.html)

Some 44mag bullets made with the hornady notch die.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44magchrony_zpscd769e68.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44magchrony_zpscd769e68.jpg.html)

A close-up of those 265gr 44cal bullets, put a small notch on the bullet/jacket to aid in how the bullet expands. Small pleats (like pictured above) ='s smaller diameter of the hp/slower expansion/better weight retention. Larger/longer pleats ='s larger diameter hp/opens faster/more shattering & fragging of the bullet.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/265g44s_zps1c48dd6f.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/265g44s_zps1c48dd6f.jpg.html)

A close-up of some 45acp bullets (225gr) that have a large deep hp and long pleats. That's what I like about the hornady blank die, it's sssssooooooooo easy to adjust to make different hp's to test/use.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/225g45acp_zps78339b4a.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/225g45acp_zps78339b4a.jpg.html)

Unlike the 44cal hp's, these 225gr 45acp bullets were meant/designed to explode/max carnage.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/45acpchrony_zps82e18452.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/45acpchrony_zps82e18452.jpg.html)

Those 45acp bullets were recovered from this bundle of tightly rapped newspaper that had a 24 hour soak. That was the test target that was used, 3 single shots and a double tap. The 3 single shots were found at the 7 1/2" mark in the wet paper and the double tap blew out the back of the bundle and were found on the table behind the bundle. The double tap went thru 9" of wet paper, they exited in the blue square pictured below.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/doubletap_zpsefe037fc.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/doubletap_zpsefe037fc.jpg.html)

Anyway, it's hard to beat the hornady blank die when it's used as a notching die.:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[andyt53]

Looks good! I think if I were to get the Hornady die, I would go a little lighter on the notching. It might fold the notches tighter when point forming. But I would also be using it on projectiles with no exposed lead past the jacket.

[ncbearman]

Forrest, if your getting the same results and expansion on your .45acp as you are the .44's then thats awesome. Great looking bullets, accurate and functional.
Link for the Hornady notch die?

[guywitha3006]

Forrest, if your getting the same results and expansion on your .45acp as you are the .44's then thats awesome. Great looking bullets, accurate and functional.
Link for the Hornady notch die?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/113106/hornady-custom-grade-new-dimension-2-die-set-cowboy-action-blank-22-to-45-caliber-handgun cheaper if you look around though.