Sneaky butt kickah - imput on silenced .500 S&W

[leftiye]

I've always imagined a silenced night weapon to be a .45 acp. When the 300 AAC and blackout came around, if I hadn't heard about it being supposed to be able to penetrate armor, I would have wondered about the inventor's sanity (I do have one). Lately, I've been picking up a few H&R Handi things, and the idea evolved into a handi in 500 S&W with both integral (vent barrel into chamber), and a front end can, and night vision (or if I find some I can afford - thermal) on top. I'm throwing it out to get your reactions. A 500 or 600 grain .50 caliber going 1100 fps can't be all bad (and it WILL hurt).

[shooter93]

There are several 50 caliber Whispers tossing slugs up to 750 grains suppressed and they work well. We have a 45-70 and have shot up to near 600 grains suppressed but the 520-550 range were more accurate and quite impressive.

[leftiye]

Thanks for your responses. Anybody have any idea what effect this would have on body armor (out of rifle remember)?

[ABluehound]

In my minds eye I am seeing Gallaghar smashing watermelons with his Sledge~O~Matic. .50 is big enough to be used to tactically take out big things like radars and generators. I would be careful loading too close to the speed of sound a few degrees F, a drop in barometric pressure, a change in altitude and your super-sonic. A well placed ~60 grain bit of lead reaching out at around 800 fps will take out a fleshy target quite handily. If you get too big your launching a sledge hammer and its just gonna be messy.

Now, if you want to play with rapid fire anti-material rounds on an AR platform, there is a .458 SOCOM which is .50 AE brass with the rim rebated to the same as 5.56 NATO base and necked down to .458. Load wise it is almost a clone of a 45/70 Government and feeds from a stock 5.56 magazine. I have had a 18 inch barrel cut for .458 sitting waiting for me to build into something similar.

[firebrick43]

It's still a subsonic round. Define body armor, there are so many levels. But the fact you want to know with a silenced weapon that puts you in Low category to me.

[koehlerrk]

Depends on what you mean by "armor"....

For Kevlar, speed is the answer. This is why a pistol vest won't stop a rifle round. But while it will stop a big, fat, slow slug, Kevlar doesn't stop the kinetic energy. Think getting punched by Mike Tyson in his prime.

For AR500 plates... oh, there's no way a big heavy slug will go through that. But again, physics, think lead baseball bat.

For Ceramic plates, think hitting cement tiles with a lead sledgehammer. One hit will shatter it, but you need to hit it again to get through.

None of this is new info... or ideas. But long story short, it won't penetrate, but anyone who gets hit will feel it.

[leftiye]

Firebrick - Define "low category." Comments like that put you in the "compulsive insultor" category in my mind. Can't a person be curious?

I kinda thought that the slug would be stopped, and that the effect would be similar to the punishment you hear about people taking - massive bruises - with vests on, only much more so. This thing will have several times the impact of say a 9 mm, or even a .45 acp., I wonder if it might not incapacitate the receiving party by impact alone.

[firebrick43]

Well, I certainly don't have issues with silencers. I don't understand why the US doesn't allow (like England)small game rifles and shotguns that silencers. Other guns such as 300 BO are not my cup of tea but a nice quiet way to practice with your AR without disturbing your neighbors.

Now for the body armor part of it. I don't find any issues with most having high powered rifles to defend themselves from zombies (or what ever they envision) wearing body armor. The government has laid siege in the past and the way it's going I can only see it happening more often. However this doesn't mean that officers of the law are all bad. If you shoot at cops for trying to serve a warrant for viable criminal offense, well that person is a scumbag.

But it your talking about a single shot rifle shooting a slow large bullets with a silencer. Large slow bullets have a large arc that makes it difficult if not impossible to effectively use in defense of advancing force(25 yard difference in range can have a large change in dope and most can not calculate yardage effectively on a stationary target, let alone a moving one), on top of the fact that it's a single shot. Also high powered rifle muzzle blast is an effective deterrent to an advancing opponent. A rifle as you described would only be used as an offensive weapon that one would likely have to lie in wait for.

So logically I have to conclude that either you did not understand the above. Or That you have watched to many James Bond movies and don't understand the absurdity of silenced snipper rifles. Or you have visions of sneaking up on cops and shooting them. The first two can be fixed with information. The last, well there is no fixing that kind of depravity.

[leftiye]

Cops? You said cops. Armor isn't only found on cops. The subject was just for fun. Just asking in hopes folks who know more about it than I do might help me out. I do have weapons that will both reach out AND defeat armor. Who ever needs that medicine will receive same. But here we (or I should say I) are just enjoying ourselves discussing theory of weapons - nothing else, and for you to dis me over what you are imagining is just a plain blankety blank (you know).

[firebrick43]

A "compulsive insulator"?
Wow I thought I very deliberately insulated my house, been saving thousand during the winter since I upgraded my house to R60


Ok let's break this down. We will start with the title.

"Sneaky"
Defined by meriam Webster


: behaving in a secret and usually dishonest manner
: done in a secret and dishonest manner


Then we have "butt kickah"
i don't know if this is gang slang or just a miss spelling? I assume butt kicker.
Term used in typically to denote offensive (as in tactics) not defensive.

Then you go on to state that 300 BO designer would be insane if it didn't penetrate body armor. This is the first time I have ever heard some one attach such a gruesome and odd requirement for sane cartrige design???

then you go into great detail of your weapon. If you just wanted to discuss "theory of weapons" nothing more would have been required than bullet speed, weight, and diameter. The silencer and thermal/night vision is of no consequence to theory but obviously integral to your fantasy.

You place all this on the special project section which could be construed as not theory but you intend to build such a contraption.

Then we come to the ones wearing body armor that we come into contact in our daily live. Police officers, security guards, armored truck drivers, famous/politicians.

In "your" signature "you" have "We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight)."

You place peace officers in front of bureaucrats? You really hate them don't you? One steal your girlfriend or wife? How can you place such disdain on individuals that risk their lives day in and out to protect yours? I mean I place rats on the same level as bureaucrats but surely not peace officers.

Then I gave you three options

1 of being ignorant. Before your insulted look up the definition. Every one is ignorant in one subject or another.

2. was to have been bamboozled by Hollywood movies. Really still is ignorance on the subject as it hard to be bamboozled when your educated in an area

3 was fantasizing about shooting peace officers.

You sure seemed convicted by 3. Speaks volumes

But maybe I was mistaken. So I showed you initial post to four of my shooting buddies. Ask to read carefully and then ask what they believed the post was about. All four inferred that you were thinking about killing cops.
So in my opinion you either have communication issues or are pretty low.


You did state "I'm throwing it out to get your reactions."
you should not ask questions you don't want answers to!

[Whiterabbit]

well, I would do it if I could. I'd prefer a .510 cal so I could shoot m33 ball (practically cheaper than 650 grains of lead), and I'd skip the night vision cause for me it would be a range queen.

But given a handi, I'd want two. A shorty for looks, and a super long barrel to push the limits of how quiet I could make it.

[leftiye]

A "compulsive insulator"?
Wow I thought I very deliberately insulated my house, been saving thousand during the winter since I upgraded my house to R60


Ok let's break this down. We will start with the title.

"Sneaky"
Defined by meriam Webster


: behaving in a secret and usually dishonest manner
: done in a secret and dishonest manner


Then we have "butt kickah"
i don't know if this is gang slang or just a miss spelling? I assume butt kicker.
Term used in typically to denote offensive (as in tactics) not defensive.

Then you go on to state that 300 BO designer would be insane if it didn't penetrate body armor. This is the first time I have ever heard some one attach such a gruesome and odd requirement for sane cartrige design???

then you go into great detail of your weapon. If you just wanted to discuss "theory of weapons" nothing more would have been required than bullet speed, weight, and diameter. The silencer and thermal/night vision is of no consequence to theory but obviously integral to your fantasy.

You place all this on the special project section which could be construed as not theory but you intend to build such a contraption.

Then we come to the ones wearing body armor that we come into contact in our daily live. Police officers, security guards, armored truck drivers, famous/politicians.

In "your" signature "you" have "We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight)."

You place peace officers in front of bureaucrats? You really hate them don't you? One steal your girlfriend or wife? How can you place such disdain on individuals that risk their lives day in and out to protect yours? I mean I place rats on the same level as bureaucrats but surely not peace officers.

Then I gave you three options

1 of being ignorant. Before your insulted look up the definition. Every one is ignorant in one subject or another.

2. was to have been bamboozled by Hollywood movies. Really still is ignorance on the subject as it hard to be bamboozled when your educated in an area

3 was fantasizing about shooting peace officers.

You sure seemed convicted by 3. Speaks volumes

But maybe I was mistaken. So I showed you initial post to four of my shooting buddies. Ask to read carefully and then ask what they believed the post was about. All four inferred that you were thinking about killing cops.
So in my opinion you either have communication issues or are pretty low.


You did state "I'm throwing it out to get your reactions."
you should not ask questions you don't want answers to!

I think you're a troll. P.S. there isn't an a in insultor. Thanks for nothing of value.

[leftiye]

well, I would do it if I could. I'd prefer a .510 cal so I could shoot m33 ball (practically cheaper than 650 grains of lead), and I'd skip the night vision cause for me it would be a range queen.

But given a handi, I'd want two. A shorty for looks, and a super long barrel to push the limits of how quiet I could make it.

Thanks for your imput. I guess I was wondering if there was any value in the idea/configuration. Glad to see someone likes it. If you've got to go less than 1100 fps, then diameter and boolit weight are the only road to more power. I'd guess that venting the barrel and using a can too would make it purty quiet (I don't think H&R makes any long barrels except the 45/70 buffalo special - some 26 inchers in 25-06 and .280).

[firebrick43]

I think you're a troll. P.S. there isn't an a in insultor. Thanks for nothing of value.

Nothing of value has come out of your little "theory of weapons" and I hope for many police officers sake nothing ever does.


O that is what you were trying to say with your misspelled word. Insulter is how it's spelled.

[Whiterabbit]

they also don't make .510 cal barrels. You'd be looking at stubs to accomplish my idea.

[leftiye]

Nothing of value has come out of your little "theory of weapons" and I hope for many police officers sake nothing ever does. O that is what you were trying to say with your misspelled word. Insulter is how it's spelled.

I was a peace officer for twenty years. I'm done with you (ignore list time).

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvSMXL6mV-A

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nLRymWv-CA

[leftiye]

they also don't make .510 cal barrels. You'd be looking at stubs to accomplish my idea.

Two thoughts, first - a fifty caliber stub might lack for enough meat to contain 50,000 ish pressures. Blown out .348 Win. brass (50-70) might work though.

[Quote] But given a handi, I'd want two. A shorty for looks, and a super long barrel to push the limits of how quiet I could make it. [Quote]

Second, a longer (more baffles) can would do more for noise level than a longer barrel would. Also, smaller cases using less powder at higher initial pressures results in less gas to dissipate. Generate velocity in less barrel length, and put a long can and an expansion chamber on a vented barrel.

[Gunor]

Artful,

Wow, another use for an AR-15 lower (crossbow upper). Interesting.

Geoff in Oregon

[Whiterabbit]

Two thoughts, first - a fifty caliber stub might lack for enough meat to contain 50,000 ish pressures. Blown out .348 Win. brass (50-70) might work though.

[Quote] But given a handi, I'd want two. A shorty for looks, and a super long barrel to push the limits of how quiet I could make it. [Quote]

Second, a longer (more baffles) can would do more for noise level than a longer barrel would. Also, smaller cases using less powder at higher initial pressures results in less gas to dissipate. Generate velocity in less barrel length, and put a long can and an expansion chamber on a vented barrel.

Gas dissipation should depend on muzzle pressure, not post-ignition pressure. But your point is taken. Of course, if the short barrel gets a longer can, so can the longer barrel! I'd still want two, again "mine" would be range queens only. For me, it is only a thought excercise.

I'm not sure I need 50 ksi to drive a 650 grain bullet to 1000 fps. Particularly if it's a handi rifle where I can use whatever case I see fit (50-140? 50 ak? 510 beowulf?). But again you are right, it's a qualititaive thought from me, I don;t quantitatively know what wall thickness is achieved via 510 cal stub, and what pressure a vessel of such dimension would be capable of withstanding.

Just fun to think about.

[leftiye]

Use the 50 S&W with the boolit seated way out in a freebored chamber maybe. 650 grs at 1100 fps. sounds dooable. Do it in the Handi barrel (yah, I'm a cheapskate).

[leftiye]

Artful, I am looking at crossbows too. Probly get one of each. Nice penetration on that armor. I saw a similar test on ceramic plate. High powered 400 fps. crossbow. Once hit, shattered plate, but no penetration. Need to hit twice to do any damage. As several have said, the crossbow isn't much good in a firefight. More of a sniper proposition. But really interesting for game taking.

[Whiterabbit]

Use the 50 S&W with the boolit seated way out in a freebored chamber maybe. 650 grs at 1100 fps. sounds dooable. Do it in the Handi barrel (yah, I'm a cheapskate).

If you are dead set on doing it with a 500 and not a 510, I'd be looking for boolit molds with bore ride noses. that hsould solve the throat risk (its not an "issue" since we don;t know, just a "risk").

I bet Old West Moulds already has a design available with a wonderful name. Though likely in a 510 you'd have to size down to 501.

Like this, assuming the nose were bore ride diameter for a 500 caliber barrel (unlikely)

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/508-855-GC.jpg

.508 WILL size to .501 without issue.

[blademasterii]

I like it. I'm talking to someone now about a .500+ cal suppressor that is able to be taken apart to clean. I have the .50 beowulf and several 45-70's that would be just awesome suppressed. I could also use the same can on a .44 mag. The beowulf with 460g pc boolits at 1000fps would be awesome suppressed. As for someone else's opinions on your reasoning or your desires, well. The alphabet has two letters for them. 6 21... :D Just my opinion.

[Tackleberry41]

Your going to be way better off with something like a 45-70 for this sort of project. The 500S&W may seem the way to go, but once your in the subsonic market, high pressure losses alot of its usefulness. More pressure is just more blast to deal with. The availability of heavy bullets is pretty good in .458. Not sure what the twist is on a 500S&W, probably more set up for short fat bullets than long ones. And stability becomes a bigger issue when you slow down, a bullet thats stable at full velocity isnt at 1050fps.

I am using 500gr in my H&R using 45-70 w pistol powder. But had to go with a faster twist barrel so they were stable at that velocity, the 500gr was right at the edge on the JPM calculator. May be fine at 50 yds, but fall apart further out. So I did a stub with a 'fast' twist barrel from green mountain. Barrel length really isnt so much of an issue with what your trying to do, fast burning pistol powder not gonna have alot of uumph in a longer barrel. Put a can on the end they get a bit unwieldy.

As for penetrating armor, probably not. Yes plenty of energy with a 500gr going 1000fps, knock somebody down, but if AR500 will stop a 308 FMJ going over 2000fps, not likely a heavier bullet going slower will do any better. Im running cast, not known for going thru armor. Yes they sell Jacketed heavies for the 458 socom, but they tend to be expensive at better than a $1 a slug. You will need lots of practice ammo, to get things dialed in with the rainbow trajectory if you plan to hit anything with it.

[Whiterabbit]

nice thing about the handi is no length concern. A barrel stub with a piece of BMG barrel could do very nicely. Chamber in 50-140 and the high pressure concerns are gone, plenty of capacity to get to 1000 fps without using high pressure at all. Homemade black powder even :).

I can't comment on armor piercing, but brass projectiles are easily available in .510. They should be available in 458 too for the weatherbys and lotts out there. Seems there could be value in the 45 cal size. Not so much for 500, the primary players seem to be pistol cartridges, brass projectiels will likely be thin there.

[leftiye]

[Quote] You're going to be way better off with something like a 45-70 for this sort of project. The 500S&W may seem the way to go, but once your in the subsonic market, high pressure loses a lot of its usefulness. More pressure is just more blast to deal with. The availability of heavy bullets is pretty good in .458. Not sure what the twist is on a 500S&W, probably more set up for short fat bullets than long ones. And stability becomes a bigger issue when you slow down, a bullet thats stable at full velocity isnt at 1050fps.[Quote Tackleberry]

Okay, noise is about blast, a frontal sound wave. Stop that high velocity blast wave, and sound goes away. Pressure does make noise, but less powder makes less gas (blast) to contain and pressure also lets off faster. A suppressor (even without an expansion chamber to reduce muzzle pressure/blast velocity) will reduce this smaller blast's pressure more in the first chamber than anything you can do with a longer barrel especially with a larger cartridge. A .45 acp case will produce the desired velocity with less gas volume and less muzzle pressure (blast) than a .45-70 will in the same barrel. It will attain that velocity (1100 fps) with less powder than the 45-70 will. Equals less muzzle blast to suppress. Granted, a shorter barrel would increase muzzle pressure, but pistol velocities (1100 fps.) can readily be attained by pistol calibers in pistol length barrels leaving extra room to use a suppressor in a reasonable length gun (and again - less gas to contain). Couple this with the twist being 18 - 22 as in a .45-70 barrel, and only pistol bullets will stabilize anyway at 1100 fps. In a .500, a 650 grain bullet is not a long bullet, and the 500 S&W barrel is twisted to stabilize it.

I once turned a 45-70 case out of solid brass with a 1/16th hole from end to end (primer hole). The front end was bored to accept a boolit, and the front 1/2" of the primer channel was opened to 1/4" to hold the powder. The thang shot 300 grain boolits at about 800 fps. and sounded like a .22 short. Standard Marlin 1895 barrel (not suppressed).

[jmorris]

If you've got to go less than 1100 fps, then diameter and boolit weight are the only road to more power.

Diameter is not a variable in the equation for energy ("power").

[leftiye]

Yes it is, KE = Mass times (V squared) over 2. Acceleration = velocity attained = pressure applied over area of base of bullet. Bigger base = more acceleration of mass in question. Also, "Power" as in killing power. Bigger hole = more damage, more bleeding.

[Whiterabbit]

If you guys get mired into a discussion of killing power, energy, and ways to calculate/quantify that, I'm going to unsubscribe. That's a topic done to death. I only have to do the math so much to know that sub caliber equivalencies exist for all the oversized cals given suffiient velocity. It's not fun anymore to make subjective guesses about end results based on quantifiable but only hazy-related values.

[HotGuns]

The .50 Hushpuppy was built from the ground up to be suppressed. The idea was to use a cast boolit...515 grains that could be easily cast and loaded into existing cases without much prep. The can was just large enough to work without being a beast like a .50 BMG can is.

It turned out to be pretty accurate and a pig killer extraordinaire that was quite enough that you could shoot all day long without ear protection.

The 515 grain lead projectile traveling at 1000 FPS tends to slap whatever it hits pretty good.

[Whiterabbit]

nice thing about 515 grains is that's an easy boolit to find in .500-.509 without buying a custom mold. Would go to 1000 fps easy in a 500S&W size case.

[300blk]

The 510 whisper is the cartridge you are looking for.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.510_Whisper
Uses chopped and sized 338 LM brass.
http://www.tactilite.com/product-p/pp-1001.htm
heres a 33" barrel blank of the appropriate diameter... Cut the chamber end an rechambered/thread. I would shorten to about 18" barrel for maneuverability.
you might be able to get away with using a magnum length action on the cheap.

[300blk]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=44&products_id=372&osCsid=lj62e02l59pg9cb7hofb8kls23

bmg heavy mold,

[Whiterabbit]

yup.

Leftiye, if you want a sample of those, let me know. I have a .501 sizer, I think they will go. ..I think...

Of course, if 515 grains is in the books there are good molds out there already too. I think the 515142 is a 500+ grian mold, with the 515141 being a 425 or 450 grain mold.

[leftiye]

Don't have a gun yet (Handi Rifle or barrel in .50 S&W). May not get one. Everybody seems to think they are made of gold. Am thinking to make a stub barrel for my Handis. Also thinking something like .50 Alaskan.

[Whiterabbit]

yeah, I vote 50 ak for sure. true 510 cal.

saw a 50AK on GBO a couple years back. I think it was expensive, but when you consider you were god to go minus cutting the barrel and threading it, might have been a comparable deal.