homemade gunpowder questions and ideas

[Desertbuck]

Ok another idea is going through my head.:shock:
Now before I start I want all newcomers to know that making gunpowder in the United States is not illegal. Also we don't need you telling us that we have the potential to hurt ourselves. We know! I'll say it again here (ANYTHING) you do involving shooting & reloading comes with inherent risks! It's as safe as Y O U make it.

Now that that's out of the way let's get started. So I've been working with homemade black powder with success for a while.
Now I've got the idea to use a simpler formula of gunpowder and a quicker way to granulate it. The powder is white gunpowder or rocket candy as some call it.
I believe the formula is 30% sugar 70% saltpeter.
My question after making this in the traditional way with a ball mill,if I were to dampen it to a cookie dough consistency with water and run it through a spaghetti maker making it much like extruded smokeless powder.
Sound like a good idea or not? And give me some ideas of your own. Also if anyone has any experience with white powder let us know.
From what little information I have found about it, it would work. I found a YouTube video of a man trying it in a 357.
From what I could see he was getting acceptable results.

[ProfGAB101]

I had heard (long long ago) that adding 1-2% ultra fine powdered charcoal seemed to speed up burn rate and improve initial ignition.

( In the late 70's a friend of mine was working on several different solid rocket propellants, slowing the burn rate and adding items to improve gas volume. He started using formula's translated from a Chinese fireworks manual.)

[Desertbuck]

Ok I can't take it anymore curiosity has just got me I'm jumping in. I'm going to give the white powder a try. Got the ball mill running now. For those that are curious I ball mill my ingredients separately till they are of a fine talcum powder consistency, then I tumble them together with a (SINGLE) marble. My drums are made of rubber!
I was digging through my odds and ends box and I think this food mill will make a decent trial run of my extruded powder135287135288

[pworley1]

Very interesting. Please post your results.

[dtknowles]

Some sugar rocket makers melt the ingredients not dissolve them. They cast the motors into the casings while the ingredients are still liquid. I think you can skip the ball mill steps with that approach. After you let the mixture solidify you could break it up and screen it for the right granulations. If you poured the liquid out on a metal cookie sheets the solid would be quite thin and easy to break up.

Tim

[Desertbuck]

Some sugar rocket makers melt the ingredients not dissolve them. They cast the motors into the casings while the ingredients are still liquid. I think you can skip the ball mill steps with that approach. After you let the mixture solidify you could break it up and screen it for the right granulations. If you poured the liquid out on a metal cookie sheets the solid would be quite thin and easy to break up.

Tim


I know of this method. But the idea of using a hot plate just doesn't appeal to me. I may give it a try in the future. I'm just going to see what this does first.
I'm going to mix them well the traditional way. Then wet them just enough to do what I want. Mixing your ingredients very well then granulating using just enough water and not too much is the key producing good gunpowder. If you use too much water you risk your potassium nitrate crystallizing out of the mixture. So I'm not using the water to mix the ingredients I'm using it to bind the ingredients that's all. You know how it seems sugar gets extremely sticky around any amount of water then after drying how it stays on whatever it was on. My hope is that after a thorough drying I will have very strong granules.

[dtknowles]

Let us know how it goes.

Tim

[Nobade]

Watching this with interest. I have made sugar rockets but never thought of trying it in guns.

-Nobade

[project]

New guy here jumping in. From my experience R-Candy or KNO3 formulas burn too slow for reloading. The whole purpose of rocket propellant is for a long sustained burn. It sounds like a fun experiment but I wouldn't expect great results. Just my opinion though.

[w5pv]

Intresting,read the whole thread.

[Walter Laich]

I'm curious to see the results
was thinking about any residue that might end up in barrel. Total guess on my part, just looking a big picture

[footpetaljones]

I'd be interested in seeing some actual chronograph readings on white powder. I've seen plenty of talk about it, but no data.

Not that it's really necessary here, but I would be worried about that food mill giving you consistent granule lengths.

[ofitg]

It seems that Backwoodsman Magazine once published an old recipe for homemade powder which consisted of saltpeter, sugar and rust (iron oxide) -

http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-450177.html

[RoyEllis]

It seems that Backwoodsman Magazine once published an old recipe for homemade powder which consisted of saltpeter, sugar and rust (iron oxide) -

http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-450177.html

I can tell ya exactly where that came from...sec. 1 no. 9 pg 25-27 of U.S. Army TM31-210, at least that's where it is in my '69 vintage book.

[ofitg]

I can tell ya exactly where that came from...sec. 1 no. 9 pg 25-27 of U.S. Army TM31-210, at least that's where it is in my '69 vintage book.

Thanks for the tip! I found it online - page 6 of this PDF file -

https://ia701203.us.archive.org/5/items/milmanual-tm-31-210-improvised-munitions-handbook/tm_31-210_improvised_munitions_handbook.pdf

[dragon813gt]

How do you plan on making the kernels all the same length after extruding it? Running it through the food mill is the easy part. Getting a consistent kernel size will be the challenge.

[Iron Whittler]

Might give the old style hand crank meat grinder a try. it cuts to length. Might need to make a plate with hole size you want. Just a thought on an interesting subject.

[dtknowles]

I would suggest that consider corning the powder like traditional BP.

Tim

[ofitg]

Shooters in South Africa used a BP substitute called Sannadex (not sure if it's still on the market now) made from Dextrose instead of Sucrose.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/70117859/Black-powder-in-RSA

It was described as being very hygroscopic, so I suspect they were using some other oxidizer instead of potassium nitrate. Possibly sodium nitrate? Ammonium nitrate?

[Desertbuck]

Thanks for the ideas guys keep them coming.
First an update, my 3 day weekend starts today and just got a chance to open up the tumblers 2 drums the potassium nitrate powdered up nicely as usual. However------I think I discovered how jaw breakers are made. It came out in one big ball. And in the center of this sugar ball was a single tumbling media The sugar seemed to compact around it like a snowball. But rubbing this sugar ball over a screen made quick work of it and the sugar was back into powder form as I wanted it. I lost a little bit because all the tumbling media had a slight little bit stuck to it. To make up for that loss though I added a teaspoon of powdered sugar. I know there's corn starch in it but in this amount not enough for me to worry about.

Now Corning definitely is an option but my goal is to bypass it. As for the food mill producing uniform grains, look closely at the picture I posted. My food mill has a wire that spins with the augers shaft which for my purposes of this test should produce usable grains. I'm going to test the powder on the bottom of an old beer can for burn speed and residue left behind. If the powder is to my liking I'm going to shove it in a 45 Colt case behind .454 round ball and see how it behaves in my Rossi r92.

[Desertbuck]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/01/f0f72a9b7824e1137275e2e3935281a1.jpg
Here's the meal powder
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/01/5a7df8673b01eaa45cc4cab6334e61c7.jpg
Adding water
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/01/cb0b8766284961eeec7e379d44299351.jpg
Almost there
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/01/3bc4c9f8da977d25411e47b6c86b58a8.jpg
I think I got it too wet
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/01/31dff853540f8fbccd4cd4396e5027e9.jpg
Yep too wet it doesn't take much I think I added no more than 4 tablespoons of water.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/01/eb9262533205b9f770a012e1a589686a.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/01/e90dfd133d76ae3d5f2ddd16ba618e5e.jpg oh well placed it on some wax paper let it dry for a while and try again.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/01/05f623215c8eaf386e9ff0119cf83cf5.jpg
Hopefully it isn't so wet that the potassium nitrate leeches out. I think I've got a good chance of starting all over again.

[ofitg]

DB, it looks promising. After you get the "extrusion" process figured out, do you have a chrony to measure muzzle velocities?

[Desertbuck]

Ok its morning, and the meal powder is now dry enough for me to granulated. However I decided just to screen it. The food mill would waste too much and I felt would produce kernels bigger than I intended.
The handling of this meal powder is a lot cleaner then traditional black powder. It almost feels like no bake cookies at this point.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/02/681697a375dbcb3788ed2ba60b219919.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/02/1f8b19073a039c9b1e91f46e374a4b0b.jpg
Hopefully it sets up hard as a rock after drying.

[Desertbuck]

DB, it looks promising. After you get the "extrusion" process figured out, do you have a chrony to measure muzzle velocities?


No unfortunately I do not have a chronograph. I keep procrastinating on getting one. But if the powder performs in the same fashion as my screened black powder I will be happy. I am going to have to refine the extruding process just a little bit. My problem was I added too much water. If I only have held off 1/2 TSP of water this would have probably of work perfectly for my first try.
And I just don't have enough material to work with at this time to try it again with my food mill. So first before I produce more I'm going to make sure the stuff works.

[SSGOldfart]

Maybe a small tea press would work,you'll kinda be pushing it out in place of extrusion.

[freebullet]

Very interesting stuff. Thank you for sharing, I'm looking forward to the performance testing results.

Have you thought about making this or black into pellets?

[Desertbuck]

Well I think I'm going to let it dry till next Wednesday. I've done a couple of burn tests and it's not to my liking! But I think it's still wet.

Ps
sorry freebullet forgot to mention. Yes I've tried pellets my experiences they don't burn fast enough. My theory is not enough surface area. When I tried them in my 45 rifle with a round ball I always got a pop fizzzzz, then 15 yards in front of me the boolit hit the ground.
I laughed more then I should have cuz all I could think of was farting sounds every time I pulled the trigger. Lol

[perotter]

DIY white powder is the only smokey powder I've ever used. I cook it up as the TM manual says and then let it dry until it is ready to go thru a cheese grater. Then shake it thru a window screen and then a grease screen to remove the fines.

The next time I make some I'm going to add a little red gum to see if I can increase the density. Also forum member Delmar has tried adding the rust, but says that it doesn't seem to work any better. If I had big interest in increasing the burn rate or increasing ignitability, I'd add 1% to 2% potassium dichromate.

Using it in my .357 with 158 gr Lee bullet, the fps is around 680. It works much better in my Dutch Beaumont, coming in at 1450 fps(25 fps less than mil spec). FWIW the brass I use for the Beaumont has reduce volume due to how I form the brass.

[perotter]

Very interesting stuff. Thank you for sharing, I'm looking forward to the performance testing results.

Have you thought about making this or black into pellets?

I've tried to make white powder into pellets, but they have always ended in having the same density as the easy way. I think a gum, like red gum, is needed to make pellets.

[SSGOldfart]

Very interesting stuff. Thank you for sharing, I'm looking forward to the performance testing results.

Have you thought about making this or black into pellets?
Same here this thread is now my home page

[ofitg]

DIY white powder is the only smokey powder I've ever used. I cook it up as the TM manual says and then let it dry until it is ready to go thru a cheese grater. Then shake it thru a window screen and then a grease screen to remove the fines.

<snip>

Using it in my .357 with 158 gr Lee bullet, the fps is around 680.

I wonder how that would compare to common blackpowder (eg, a .357 case full of Goex 3F behind a 158-gr bullet)..................... ?

[perotter]

I wonder how that would compare to common blackpowder (eg, a .357 case full of Goex 3F behind a 158-gr bullet)..................... ?

I'd like to know also. I've never used blackpowder in a cartridge so I can't really say, but I'd guess that the blackpowder would do a little better. I base that on the white powder I made is less dense than blackpowder.

IMO adding a gum(etc) would help increase the power, but I don't know if it would help enough to be worth while.

[Desertbuck]

I've never used blackpowder in a cartridge

Perotter you need to give it a try it's addicting. Especially with homemade. You end up stuffing it in cartridges that we're never designed for it to begin with and with a little bit of tinkering it works.
If you are like me the cheaper shooting is and the more I do myself the happier I am. And it makes for extremely cheap shooting especially when you make your own primers on top of that which you were a big part of help in for me. :-)

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/05/6d86acd521b5326c8771e062d68e1bc0.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/05/35308d8a4cff3cff5caccf397218c189.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/05/0ba9db95bd173bb580800bdcdd604837.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/05/82fc020f8e47ed5e360bf7660d762a3d.jpg
I'm using pulled down brass here, its got Yugoslavian 50s era primer.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/05/a73248bdbbeb43e210817a4b89f9b57b.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/05/4701357bb3ae49f548d2d33832b06132.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/05/880355057924549914a28d3ffda9ef79.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/05/4237162e6041e8da13da530e73a5ab03.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/05/7ff6749887a8246d6030de91d1d6ac03.jpg
sorry this is getting off track

[ofitg]

I'd like to know also. I've never used blackpowder in a cartridge so I can't really say, but I'd guess that the blackpowder would do a little better. I base that on the white powder I made is less dense than blackpowder.

IMO adding a gum(etc) would help increase the power, but I don't know if it would help enough to be worth while.

I found this in the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook & Loading Manual (2nd Edition, 2001) -

.38 Special, 17.5 gr Goex FFFg, 158-gr bullet # 358665, overall length 1.445" -

Muzzle velocity 642 fps with a 5-1/2" Ruger Vaquero.

In theory, the .357 case could provide about 0.06" more length (a couple extra grains of powder?) before it started bumping up against the .357's OAL limit. It sounds to me like your white powder is pretty much equivalent to blackpowder.

[Desertbuck]

Sorry Perotter I just read your post again I just got off work last night when I posted what I did up above. All that registered was you never tried black powder in a cartridge. :/

[perotter]

I found this in the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook & Loading Manual (2nd Edition, 2001) -

.38 Special, 17.5 gr Goex FFFg, 158-gr bullet # 358665, overall length 1.445" -

Muzzle velocity 642 fps with a 5-1/2" Ruger Vaquero.

In theory, the .357 case could provide about 0.06" more length (a couple extra grains of powder?) before it started bumping up against the .357's OAL limit. It sounds to me like your white powder is pretty much equivalent to blackpowder.

I think if one could get the same number of grains of WP as BP in a case it would be so close that it wouldn't really matter.

One thing I should have mentioned before, is that the fps spread was wide in the .357. Also, that I used a .357 1894 Marlin. The fps spread in the Beaumont was in line with what one would expect.

FWIW. Many of the details of testing this were on a computer that I throw away 3 months ago. I hadn't used that computer in 5 years and didn't realize until 2 days latter that there was things on it that were of value. So now all I have is the net results of these test.

[perotter]

Sorry Perotter I just read your post again I just got off work last night when I posted what I did up above. All that registered was you never tried black powder in a cartridge. :/

No harm, no foul.

[Desertbuck]

Well its dry. The granules are pretty tough but if you use your fingernail and push firmly on a grain you can cut them in half. But they don't break they almost feel like a very dry cookie. No surprise there sugar after all. Haven't done a burn test yet I got a few things to do today. I had a few minutes so I screened out the fines. I ended up with a powder that mostly close to Fg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/08/e33a3fa18b3391b53977b5cfdd727250.jpg
Powder on the left is my homemade black powder in the center is of course the white powder and on the far right is commercial Goex Fg for comparison.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/08/cd5f3bfb58c20d0ea2c9b67da9227462.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/08/de4a4afd841ef07d2b4762fb1a1466ae.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/08/6ab672e3cbb68126610598ec74e7adb2.jpg

[Desertbuck]

Well shoot! That was anti climatic, it doesn't burn worth a darn! It doesn't even fully burn all the grains. I don't think the stuff I made wouldn't even make good rocket fuel.
Might make a good smoke bomb but that's about it.
Which prompted me to immediately go back and see why it worked for the guy with his 357 Magnum , his pistol was not a 357 but was a 44 magnum, my bad! And in another one of his videos he showed his recipe. He called it sugar-based but actually it did contain a fair amount of charcoal.

So don't waste your time producing sugar / potassium nitrate gunpowder with this method. I'm going to say it doesn't work.
I may play around with sugar / charcoal recipe but I might as well just make traditional black powder.

[salty dog]

Thanks for the report. Even if it's less than successful we can learn from it.

[ofitg]

Perotter seemed to have better results with his KNO3/Sugar powder, but even then, he was getting "pistol" velocities with a rifle-length barrel. It sounds like more development/experimentation would be required.

[perotter]

I doubt very much would be gained by doing more work with WP. IMO, it's something that has it's place/use and best used for that. FWIW, DuPont developed it(along with the rest of the energetic compound in the TM manual) for the DOD in the 1960's.

If one wants to really make a simple(?) DIY powder there one that will give the same FPS as modern nitrocellulose and double based powders. The ammon/amide powders will do that well. One needs to keep in mind that with these they would be working with pressures that are the same(or easily higher) as modern smokeless powders.

These are based on using ammonium nitrate. About the easiest one is ammonium nitrate, potassium nitrate, charcoal and potassium dichromate. A 74%-10%-15%-1% will work well enough that one would need to go farther if they didn't want to. The potassium nitrate greatly alters the phase shift problem that ammonium nitrate has and increases burn rate/ignitability. The potassium dichromate is a catalyst that increases burn rate/ignitability.

There are so many ways to do an ammon/amide powder that at the hobby level that one could spend years working with them. Short shelf live compared to normal smokeless powders is the main reason they have never been widely used. The powder companies still patents new ideas in for this type of powder, so they must still be doing work is it. Likely because it is so cheap to make in both small and large batches.

FWIW. A forum member posting about ammon powder is how I discovered this forum, but he had to use a normal smokeless for reason of ignition. My 1st posts here are about how I was able to overcome that problem by using information I gained from the work that was done after the compound mix he was using.

[perotter]

I should again state that when working with an ammonium nitrate powder one is working with modern pressures.

Also and without looking it up to be sure, the pressure of these powder normally rapidly increase at a certain point. IMO, these powders aren't for those who don't understand what is going on. But then again the Viet Cong reloaded their ammo with it and I don't know how much they really understood about what they were doing.

[footpetaljones]

I doubt very much would be gained by doing more work with WP. IMO, it's something that has it's place/use and best used for that. FWIW, DuPont developed it(along with the rest of the energetic compound in the TM manual) for the DOD in the 1960's.

If one wants to really make a simple(?) DIY powder there one that will give the same FPS as modern nitrocellulose and double based powders. The ammon/amide powders will do that well. One needs to keep in mind that with these they would be working with pressures that are the same(or easily higher) as modern smokeless powders.

These are based on using ammonium nitrate. About the easiest one is ammonium nitrate, potassium nitrate, charcoal and potassium dichromate. A 74%-10%-15%-1% will work well enough that one would need to go farther if they didn't want to. The potassium nitrate greatly alters the phase shift problem that ammonium nitrate has and increases burn rate/ignitability. The potassium dichromate is a catalyst that increases burn rate/ignitability.

There are so many ways to do an ammon/amide powder that at the hobby level that one could spend years working with them. Short shelf live compared to normal smokeless powders is the main reason they have never been widely used. The powder companies still patents new ideas in for this type of powder, so they must still be doing work is it. Likely because it is so cheap to make in both small and large batches.

FWIW. A forum member posting about ammon powder is how I discovered this forum, but he had to use a normal smokeless for reason of ignition. My 1st posts here are about how I was able to overcome that problem by using information I gained from the work that was done after the compound mix he was using.

I'd be interested in reading this research. Would you be able to direct me to the posts? I tried searching, but 2200 posts is a lot of info to comb through.

[perotter]

I'd be interested in reading this research. Would you be able to direct me to the posts? I tried searching, but 2200 posts is a lot of info to comb through.

I spent a little time looking, but couldn't find it. I found a little that I have posted about it other threads. My notes aren't on this computer, I do have them and have some printed out data. There are 2 mixes that I got to ignite every time without using any smokeless powder as a base charge. One of them used charcoal and the other one nitrocellulose from ping pong balls.

The charcoal one is:
75% ammonium nitrate
7.5% potassium nitrate
15% charcoal
2.5% ammonium dichromate

These were put into boiling water and stirred to mix. After being dried, it was pressed to a thickness of 0.01 inches and cut into squares of 1.5mm x 1.5mm. The cutting was done with an imported spaghetti maker and that is the reason for mix of American and metric measurements.

Keep in mind that this powder will rust a barrel. Also, ammonium dichromate will 'burn' a hole in your skin and is a poison. Regular table salt is supposed to work as well as ammonium dichromate, but I've never tried it.

I never really pressure tested it enough to consider it a ready to go process. Also, given the pressures this will give maybe each batch needs to be tested to determine the starting amount to use.

[Desertbuck]

I doubt very much would be gained by doing more work with WP. IMO, it's something that has it's place/use and best used for that. FWIW, DuPont developed it(along with the rest of the energetic compound in the TM manual) for the DOD in the 1960's.

If one wants to really make a simple(?) DIY powder there one that will give the same FPS as modern nitrocellulose and double based powders. The ammon/amide powders will do that well. One needs to keep in mind that with these they would be working with pressures that are the same(or easily higher) as modern smokeless powders.

These are based on using ammonium nitrate. About the easiest one is ammonium nitrate, potassium nitrate, charcoal and potassium dichromate. A 74%-10%-15%-1% will work well enough that one would need to go farther if they didn't want to. The potassium nitrate greatly alters the phase shift problem that ammonium nitrate has and increases burn rate/ignitability. The potassium dichromate is a catalyst that increases burn rate/ignitability.

There are so many ways to do an ammon/amide powder that at the hobby level that one could spend years working with them. Short shelf live compared to normal smokeless powders is the main reason they have never been widely used. The powder companies still patents new ideas in for this type of powder, so they must still be doing work is it. Likely because it is so cheap to make in both small and large batches.

FWIW. A forum member posting about ammon powder is how I discovered this forum, but he had to use a normal smokeless for reason of ignition. My 1st posts here are about how I was able to overcome that problem by using information I gained from the work that was done after the compound mix he was using.

I got a few questions. Why does it have a short shelf life and how long is that shelf life? How do you determine the burn rate of the powder you've made? Is burn rate controlled by changing the percent ratios, granule sizes or both?
Does it smoke a lot like black powder? How toxic is the smoke that is given off after firing?

[footpetaljones]

The ammonium nitrate eats at the brass and degrades it. Ammonium nitrate is also very hygorscopic. Linstrum did a small test and had a 4 month shell life.
As far as I know, burn rate is mostly a function of granule size and shape. Commercial manufacturers can use other substances to slow down the burn rate as well.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?259479-Ammonpulver-Project-Update

[perotter]

Please keep in mind that I haven't made more that a couple of pounds of ammon powder and not more than a few ounces of any one mix. And have made about 10 different mixes with batch sizes varying from a 200 grains to 500 grains. I've never tried any of the mixes that were used as pistol/shotgun powder.

I'll answer the ones I can. I know that what I've done works much better than the 85%-15% AN/Charcoal mix.



Does it smoke a lot like black powder?

It is a smokeless powder. It mainly(40-50%) outputs water vapor. It is also a flashless powder.



How toxic is the smoke that is given off after firing?

The chrome in the listed mix wouldn't be good, but I don't know how toxic it is. If I was going to make very much of it, I'd use something else besides a dichromate for the burn rate catalyst.


How do you determine the burn rate of the powder you've made? Is burn rate controlled by changing the percent ratios, granule sizes or both?


For burn rate I determine it by testing it in a rifle and I know of no other way of doing it without making special equipment for controlling pressures. IMO, for DIY smokeless powder changing the grain thickness is best and leaving the outside linear size the same. Also, using one that was/is meant for pistol/shotgun use would be good. My current thinking is 2 basic mixes that the thickness is changed for the desired mass burn rate. FWIW, the French used to use layered powders that the sheet that made up the powder had different burn rates.

For a propellant to be of much use, the linear burn rate needs to have a factor of at least 1. That is about what a AN/charcoal mix will have. Using a base 90-10% AN/KNO3 will give about a 1.1 linear burn rate factor. Adding one or more burn rate catalysts will increase that. The linear burn rate is especially important for initial ignition.


I got a few questions. Why does it have a short shelf life and how long is that shelf life?

I'm sure I don't know all the details that it has a short shelf life. Properly stored the shelf life's I've seen listed are 10-15 years. Out in the open on a humid day the life is measured in minutes. Also, for the 7.62x54r the Russians dropped ammonium nitrate powder because of shelf life.

Also, if one doesn't use a phase stabilizer it will turn to dust from crossing the temperature points that the change the crystal size of the ammonium nitrate. The use of a 90%-10% ammonium nitrate-potassium nitrate base will be ok for most of the US. Without looking it up, something like -40 to 200 degrees. I'm not a kid anymore and even at -30 I'm inclined to not spending much time outside shooting.

I hope this helps, but I'm sure that I have left things out. I'm more than happy attempt to answer any other question and not afraid to say that I don't know the answer, but might be able to point you in the correct direction if nothing else.

I've found 10-15 new mixes that have been tested by others that I was aware of when experimented with this. Several of them are for shotgun/pistol ammo. It somewhat is what one does have available and why one wants to make it - save money, just to do it for the challenge, for experimenting, ensure you always will have powder, etc.

I'll try to get time tonight to fire up the computer that has much more information about. I switched computers awhile ago and really need to copy that information to this one.

[ProfGAB101]

To prevent leeching out, use 70% rubbing (isopropal) alcohol to dampen the mix with only a 30% water content the salts won't dissolve as much and it will dry faster in the graining/screening step. Also 70% is not very flammable, the 90% is a bit more flammable..

I also use 70% in squirt guns to kill flies around the house in summer, no residue after the fact, and self cleaning! No fly guts smeared all over.

[perotter]

There is another old thread(2009?) here about making white powder and someone on that one said why it works better to be dissolve it in water. I also think that forum member Delmar just put it all into a coffee grinder and had success doing that.

I do like the rubbing alcohol idea and think it would be worthwhile to pursue.

[moose53]

Hello I am new here, found you online after a search for Amide powder. I have been using it in my 40mm cannon with good results and am interested in talking to others about their use of Amide powder.

https://youtu.be/PnFIyJGrtTk

[perotter]

Thanks for the link and the fact that you are getting good results with it. It's great to see you here and know someone does use it on a normal basis. I'm sure amidepulver makes it affordable to shoot.

I've mainly used ammonpulver/amidepulver in .357 and 7.7 japs for testing it only. I haven't been displeased with it, but normally use normal powders. The ammon/amide pulver tests were mainly to do it so if the need arose, I'd be ready. In case powder to totally unavailable or if I ever got a .50 bmg or 20 mm.

The best I've tried appears to be one that I use nitrocellulose ping pong ball in instead of charcoal. I'd have to dig to find what %s I used of what. By best, I mean clean burning.

I'd like to hear the details of how you make it.

[moose53]

I have only been making Amide powder for a few months. The details are listed on the GBO forum if that will work for you.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/blackpowder-mortar-and-cannon-sponsored-by-seacoast-artillery/powder-301512/

How do you modify ping pong balls to substitute for charcoal?
I always suspected that Amide powder would work in modern arms.

[moose53]

What I really would like to know is if you have found a charcoal besides willow that works well with Amide powder? I only have one willow tree available and its a neighbors, so supply is limited. I am setting up to try red cedar next.

[perotter]

I have only been making Amide powder for a few months. The details are listed on the GBO forum if that will work for you.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/blackpowder-mortar-and-cannon-sponsored-by-seacoast-artillery/powder-301512/

How do you modify ping pong balls to substitute for charcoal?
I always suspected that Amide powder would work in modern arms.

Thanks for the link. I skimmed it and will study it latter this weekend.

As for the ping pong balls:
1. I cut them open.
2. Rinse off the flame suppress that is on the surface with acetone. I throw this acetone away.
3. Dissolve the ping pong balls in acetone. Add this to the nitrates, dichromate, etc.

I'd have to look the exact %s on my old computer, but this is about what the simplest one was by weight:

19% NC
11% KNO
70% AN



The use of NC instead of charcoal was patented in about 1920 by duPont. At that point in time, even duPont was certain that anyone would be able to make a NC powder that was stable for a long period of time.

I've also used cellulose acetate instead of NC, as per patents in the 1960s. I used cigarette filters for the cellulose acetate source. These were dissolved in acetone. The little testing I did indicated that didn't work as well as charcoal or NC. As ping pong balls are cheaper, up to this point I haven't revisited it.

I next thing I'd try is the old hydroellulose method as a substitute for charcoal. While the tests of it in the WW2 era indicate it isn't as powerful as ammonpulver, it appears to be more powerful than amidepulver. Plus, there is something to be said for just buying toilet paper and hydrochloric acid at a local store.

I'm curious as to why you make amidepulver instead of the more modern powerful ammonpulvers. Is it the safety factor? Any reason or no reason at all is a good reason. I'm just interested in seeing if there might be a reason that I'm not aware of. And as you aren't trying to take out a tank, an increase in FPS would be of little practical concern.

[perotter]

I can't help you at this point with about charcoals, as I buy mine from the pyro houses. For me it is simpler to just add burn rate catalysts to increase the burn rate.

[moose53]

Thank you for your informative reply. I am learning new terms, so my amide powder is also known as amidepulver. It was the predominate formula I found in my post civil war research on line , I didn't know about ammonpulvers. As for taking out out a tank , I have several 3in-50 navy barrels that would be fun to see how far I could push them. I started working with amidepulver in June 2014.

[moose53]

I am now rereading some of the older posts about ammonpulver with the new understanding it is a advance over amidepulver. I sometimes have to read something a few times before it really sinks in.

[just_shooter]

Sorry for maybe stupid question: can this "white" powder be used in 9mm, and reach necessary power factor for lets say minor in IPSC?

[perotter]

Sorry for maybe stupid question: can this "white" powder be used in 9mm, and reach necessary power factor for lets say minor in IPSC?

That isn't a stupid question. It is one that a person would indeed want an answer to before heading down the path of any DIY. If it isn't possible for it result in the desired outcome, there is not reason do it.

No it can't. To give you a frame of reference, filling a .357 mag full with white power and a 158 lead bullet will give about 550-600 fps. This would be when use a carbine.

If you want full power loads with a simple DIY powder, the ammonium nitrate ones are what you would want to look at. With those powders you can duplicate normal power levels.

Some of the methods to make ammonium nitrate powders don't involve much time, yours or the clocks. You mix everything in water to dissolve the nitrates(etc). Then over a very low heat you stir the mix with a fork(etc). When this is getting dry you proceed like one does with scrambled eggs to get the desired grain size.

The level of heat should be at a level to just speed evaporation. Think more in the area of hot tap water than nearer to boiling.

Ammonpulvers linear burn rate is low, so to get a good result in pistols one needs a larger amount of burn rate catalyst. One could also use barium nitrate or lead nitrate instead of potassium nitrate as the phase shift stabilizer, as those two nitrate react faster.

Aluminum powder will also greatly increase the speed. It does this in a couple of ways. It increase the overall temp, it transfers heat faster to the AN molecules and helps break the water that forms around each AN molecule when it burns. Likely does other things also.

The reason ammonpulvers burn slow is is because AN burns so clean. When AN burns the water that is created temporarily surrounds the molecule until there is there is enough heat to 'drive' it away. But this is also why it burns so cool, in memory serve me, which can be an advantage for use in guns.

There is kind of three eras of research into using ammonium nitrate for what concerns us:
1. 1870-1920 when smokeless powder developed.
2. 1950-mid 1960 for use in rockets.
3. 1970-late 1990 for use in air bags.

Much that is useful to us was learned in the the 1980s and 1990s as they had much more tech to use to research what is happening.

[moose53]

I have a few questions on the use of ping pong balls. After the balls are dissolved do you mix the NC-acetone into a dry mix of PN and AN? Have you looked at 100% NC lacquer as a source of NC?

http://www.amazon.com/Deft-Interior-Finish-Brushing-Lacquer/dp/B000LNSGB6?SubscriptionId=AKIAJO7E5OLQ67NVPFZA&tag=shopperz_origin1-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B000LNSGB6&ascsubtag=561266470-16-1104634841.1438536615

If you could , a simple step by step on amidepulver with NC would be helpful . Thanks

[sixonetonoffun]

34-0-0 isn't as freely available today as it was a couple years ago. Insurance companies won't insure AG suppliers who handle it.

[perotter]

I have a few questions on the use of ping pong balls. After the balls are dissolved do you mix the NC-acetone into a dry mix of PN and AN? Have you looked at 100% NC lacquer as a source of NC?

http://www.amazon.com/Deft-Interior-Finish-Brushing-Lacquer/dp/B000LNSGB6?SubscriptionId=AKIAJO7E5OLQ67NVPFZA&tag=shopperz_origin1-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B000LNSGB6&ascsubtag=561266470-16-1104634841.1438536615

If you could , a simple step by step on amidepulver with NC would be helpful . Thanks

I've mixed the NC-acetone into a dry mix and to a mix that was in methyl alcohol. FWIW. AN dissolves in methyl alcohol extremely well.

I have looked at lacquer that the pryo houses sell. Ping pong balls are cheaper. Lacquer likely is purer and more consistent purchase to purchase, but I don't know that to be a fact.

I've used Deft to make a non AN containing smokeless pistol/shotgun powder. It was that first smokeless power I ever made 15 or so years ago. It work fine even without doing any development. It both burned cleaner and provided more fps(no longer have the details) when I made a 90/10 lacquerer/KNO mix.

With Deft I kept it simple.
1. Mixed with KNO or not, I poured it out unto a Teflon pan.
2. Let it set until the carrier evaporated.
3. Cut the resulting sheet into strips 1/16 wide by 1 inch long with a razor knife. I wanted it slow burning.
4. Loaded it into .357 mag rounds.

I never recorded how much it shrunk in the evaporation process. Nor have I tried to compress with heat a lacquer powder, just done bulk powder.

I've made an attempt to develop a smokeless powder and have only done enough to know where to start and head if I ever needed to have a smokeless powder. In the contest of ones time, primers have always won even though power interests me more.


One needs to keep in mind that both lacquer and ping pong balls may have and likely do have urea in them to stabilize the NC. Urea would cause bubbles/void in the any powder use made of it over time. This would increase the mass burn rate. I don't store a powder for long that uses either.

I'll try do a little write latter tonite or tomorrow. I might have to start up an old computer to feel comfortable writing one up. While incorrectly writing it would cause no danger, I'd like to write what I did. It has been 4-5 years since I've made any.

[perotter]

34-0-0 isn't as freely available today as it was a couple years ago. Insurance companies won't insure AG suppliers who handle it.

In these part of the US, it has never been readily available at least since about 1970. One had to special order tons of it from a AG supplier and if you weren't a farmer they were going to order it. The exception to that was a few years ago during a fertilizer shortage. Then that is was what my brothers bought for their corn that year.

The amount of AN I need for powder is now easily obtained locally for exploding targets.

[moose53]

I am not up on some of the abbreviations what is FWIW ? Thanks

[ofitg]

Perotter, just wondering - did you ever experiment with matchheads (crushed into powder)?

[footpetaljones]

FWIW- for what it's worth

[perotter]

Perotter, just wondering - did you ever experiment with matchheads (crushed into powder)?

Yes and that was my second experiment in the area of improvised/DIY powder. The first was just cutting the heads off of paper matches without crushing them.

For what I desired I went back to just cutting the heads off with a toe nail clipper. At the time I had no chronograph and couldn't see a big difference, plus had the 'charge ahead' attitude of teen. For two years that was all I used to reload my practice ammo when I was working my way through tech school. Likely only a few hundred rounds as I didn't have much time for anything but school and work.

[ofitg]

Yes and that was my second experiment in the area of improvised/DIY powder. The first was just cutting the heads off of paper matches without crushing them.

For what I desired I went back to just cutting the heads off with a toe nail clipper. At the time I had no chronograph and couldn't see a big difference, plus had the 'charge ahead' attitude of teen. For two years that was all I used to reload my practice ammo when I was working my way through tech school. Likely only a few hundred rounds as I didn't have much time for anything but school and work.

Interesting.... back in the 1990s I acquired a book titled "Homemade Guns & Homemade Ammo", written by Ronald Brown. He mentioned matchhead powder, and another KClO3-based powder. I ran a few rounds through a percussion revolver (a repro .36 Remington). According to my Chrony, 10 grains of the matchhead powder provided the same velocity as 20 grains of 3Fg black powder.... for safety's sake, it should be noted that the repro .36 Remington has abnormally thick chamber/cylinder walls.

I wonder what the matchhead powder could achieve in a centerfire rifle cartridge?

[moose53]

I found a possible new source of NC . A friend works at a paint store that makes their own lacquers. They get NC in mixed form in drums as 70% NC - 30% isopropanol , the isopropanol stabilizes the NC. It even comes in various speeds . He will pick up some for me as a sample to see how well it works .

[perotter]

moose53,

Did you get the NC from the paint store? If so, did you get a chance to do anything with it?

[perotter]

Interesting.... back in the 1990s I acquired a book titled "Homemade Guns & Homemade Ammo", written by Ronald Brown. He mentioned matchhead powder, and another KClO3-based powder. I ran a few rounds through a percussion revolver (a repro .36 Remington). According to my Chrony, 10 grains of the matchhead powder provided the same velocity as 20 grains of 3Fg black powder.... for safety's sake, it should be noted that the repro .36 Remington has abnormally thick chamber/cylinder walls.

I wonder what the matchhead powder could achieve in a centerfire rifle cartridge?

I was going to suggest that book, as I've found it very informative. I also wonder what it would do in rifle cartridge. I have a few 7.7 rifles with chrome lined barrels and have one that has a strain gage on it for pressure testing.

Only thing is I lost much of my interest in matchhead powders when matches were no longer something given away at nearly every cash register in the US. On the other hand, by testing match heads one would quickly learn the potential of using a perchlorate based powder.

[moose53]

I had to work out just what to ask for with my paint tech friend. I will check with the head paint tech Monday to see if he can supply a NC lacquer with 50% (70% NC - 30% isopropanol) and 50% acetone. Or I might be able to get straight (70% NC - 30% isopropanol) depends on how nervous he is about NC. The 50-50 mix is about the limit of hand mixing in 5 gal bucket with out clamping the bucket down ( too thick ).

[perotter]

moose53,

Have you had time to find out any more about the NC or get some? Also, do you know what the price of it might be?

[moose53]

Sorry about the wait, I was able to talk to him Tuesday. He said he would get back to me Wednesday but no information yet. Trying hard not to make a pest of myself in calling his office. This seams to have a life of its own.

[perotter]

Thanks for posting where things are at moose53. Not being a pest is a good idea and these things do seem to have their own life.

I don't know what or if you gave reason for wanting it, but after thinking about NC 20+ years ago I got an auto body shop to order me a pint of NC. I didn't say I wanted it for making gun powder.

FWIW.

NC lacquer was the 'dope' that was used on both canvas airplanes and canvas canoes.

[moose53]

The head paint tech was on vacation this last week so got to talk with him today. It seems that NC lacquer is very regulated and the formulation I was looking for is not available. So It would appear that ping pong balls are still the simplest way to get NC.

[moose53]

Has anyone used cordite (3in-50 powder) dissolved in acetone as a source of NC in any of your experiments ?

[perotter]

I did a little looking around for NC lacquer and amount all I could find was a 10% mix that is sold by the quart to guitar makers and priced at about $17 a quart. That would be $40-60 a lbs.

[moose53]

Update, It seems all this time I was looking for NC I was sitting on the best stuff you could get. I have a supply of cordite for 3in-50 navy artillery . Looked it up on line , it is 99.5% NC(12.6%) , .5% diphenylamine. I dissolved 5oz of cordite in 2 cups of acetone, may have to use 1 more cup of acetone to get it thin enough to pour. Perotter now that I'm this far , how did you mix the NC with the other ingredients?

[perotter]

@moose53,

With the NC I stirred them together. I first dissolved the ammonium nitrate, potassium nitrate and ammonium dichromate together and stirred them while heated until it was thick. I then removed the heat and allowed it to cool. Then I added the dissolved NC and stirred that together. The dissolved NC was thin, but I have no scientific way to tell you how thin. I just kept adding acetone until it was easy to mix with kitchen mixer.

I really can't say how long I stirred the complete mix. I would have done it until I was very sick of it, which would be about 3-10 minutes maximum. Very likely not as long as one should do it.

Please keep in mind that I was only doing preliminary testing and not coming up with a refined process. I was at the same time testing 4 other ammonpulver mixes that didn't have NC in them to see which ones worked. I wanted to basically see what direction to head. About the time I got this done it got humid here and stopped testing. Since then I've only worked on primer mixes.

Looks like it is now time for power again. Hope this helps to at least give you a direction to go or not to go.

[moose53]

Underestimated the amount of Acetone needed for 5 oz NC. Moved NC to 1 gal paint can and used 9 cups of Acetone to thin to the consistency of thick pourable lacquer. Inquired about the availability of single base smokeless powder and found that 50 cal single base powder is still relatively available, as M1 powder, if that is of any help.

[perotter]

Underestimated the amount of Acetone needed for 5 oz NC. Moved NC to 1 gal paint can and used 9 cups of Acetone to thin to the consistency of thick pourable lacquer. Inquired about the availability of single base smokeless powder and found that 50 cal single base powder is still relatively available, as M1 powder, if that is of any help.

Have you had a chance to mix up a batch and test it?

Another advantage of using M1 is that urea isn't used to stabilize it. That would greatly increase the amount of time that the burn rate of the powder would stay the same.

PS.
For those who don't read complete threads or in case it hasn't been mentioned, ammonpulver has the power of a double based smokeless powder. So use ones head when using it. Amidepulver aren't as powerful.

In the 1940's in the US the homemade ammonpulvers made and tested proved safe, but if one made them denser and/or small grained one might get into trouble. While a base ammonpulver is slower burning than a NC power, one still needs to be careful.

Also, ammonpulver doesn't have are linear pressure raise. At high pressures it can go almost straight up. One shouldn't be load that pressure in the 1st place, but......

[moose53]

I want to use my ball mill to mix the AN and PN but a separate container should be used, so I am building a new one . Also made a batch of maple charcoal for my black powder and set up a batch of ceder charcoal to test in amide powder . It finally rained so I tested a new ignition system today in my cannon , it didn't work well so it needs to be redesigned. Should be able to mix NC powder before too long. Sorry about the wait, I know you are probably anxious to see how the NC works.

[perotter]

I want to use my ball mill to mix the AN and PN but a separate container should be used, so I am building a new one . Also made a batch of maple charcoal for my black powder and set up a batch of ceder charcoal to test in amide powder . It finally rained so I tested a new ignition system today in my cannon , it didn't work well so it needs to be redesigned. Should be able to mix NC powder before too long. Sorry about the wait, I know you are probably anxious to see how the NC works.

Thanks for the update. There is no need to be sorry about having other thing to do. Testing these things aren't an emergency. I was just curious as to the status.

[ofitg]

I was going to suggest that book, as I've found it very informative. I also wonder what it would do in rifle cartridge. I have a few 7.7 rifles with chrome lined barrels and have one that has a strain gage on it for pressure testing.

Only thing is I lost much of my interest in matchhead powders when matches were no longer something given away at nearly every cash register in the US. On the other hand, by testing match heads one would quickly learn the potential of using a perchlorate based powder.

Perotter, I finally made it out to the desert and collected a little data using variations on one of Ron Brown's recipes - KClO3 mixed with ordinary granulated table sugar.

Using my homebrew KClO3 (probably ~ 95% pure), I found that a mixture of 40% KClO3 and 60% sugar might be used as a blackpowder substitute.... ie, 1.3cc of the PC/sugar mix generated velocities comparable to 1.3cc of Goex 3Fg blackpowder (I used a revolver for the experiment). It should be noted that the PC/sugar mix is about 10% less dense than the BP.

For purer grades of KClO3, it might be wise to try 35% KClO3 with 65% sugar.

[Tracy]

I found a YouTube video of a man trying it in a 357.
From what I could see he was getting acceptable results.

Link?

[ofitg]

Range Report - Yugo SKS 7.62X39 - 123-gr JHP bullet
Each cartridge loaded with 30 grains of Potassium Chlorate/Sucrose blend (no special preparation, the two substances were simply stirred together). Proportions are listed by weight.
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend A - 30% Potassium Chlorate, 70% Sucrose
1302 fps
1401 fps
1286 fps
Average 1330 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend B - 40% Potassium Chlorate, 60% Sucrose
1480 fps
1543 fps
1725 fps
Average 1583 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend C - 50% Potassium Chlorate, 50% Sucrose
1750 fps
1902 fps
1680 fps
Average 1777 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend D - 60% Potassium Chlorate, 40% Sucrose
1929 fps
1912 fps
1823 fps
Average 1888 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend E - 70% Potassium Chlorate, 30% Sucrose
1769 fps
1848 fps
1760 fps
Average 1792 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Also loaded three cartridges with black powder (33 grains of Goex 3Fg, approximating the same volume of the KClO3/Sucrose loads listed above)
1378 fps
1495 fps
1497 fps
Average 1457 fps
　
　

[1989toddm]

Range Report - Yugo SKS 7.62X39 - 123-gr JHP bullet
Each cartridge loaded with 30 grains of Potassium Chlorate/Sucrose blend (no special preparation, the two substances were simply stirred together). Proportions are listed by weight.
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend A - 30% Potassium Chlorate, 70% Sucrose
1302 fps
1401 fps
1286 fps
Average 1330 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend B - 40% Potassium Chlorate, 60% Sucrose
1480 fps
1543 fps
1725 fps
Average 1583 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend C - 50% Potassium Chlorate, 50% Sucrose
1750 fps
1902 fps
1680 fps
Average 1777 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend D - 60% Potassium Chlorate, 40% Sucrose
1929 fps
1912 fps
1823 fps
Average 1888 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend E - 70% Potassium Chlorate, 30% Sucrose
1769 fps
1848 fps
1760 fps
Average 1792 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Also loaded three cartridges with black powder (33 grains of Goex 3Fg, approximating the same volume of the KClO3/Sucrose loads listed above)
1378 fps
1495 fps
1497 fps
Average 1457 fps
　
　


Did you buy or make the potassium chlorate?

[ofitg]

This was homemade KClO3. As best as I can measure, it's within one or two percent of commercial purity.

[1989toddm]

Does it burn pretty clean? This sounds nice except for boiling bleach..

[Rojelio]

http://www.hobbychemicalsupply.com/potassium-chlorate-kclo3/

[ofitg]

Does it burn pretty clean? This sounds nice except for boiling bleach..

It's not as nasty as black powder, but it was spitting little white specks (unburned sugar?) on my Chrony.

I'm a little "spooked" by the way the velocity dropped off with Blend E. I don't know the explanation, so I probably won't go beyond a 60% blend again.
I might be willing to try a 35% blend as a blackpowder substitute....

Yeah, whether you use the bleach method or the electrolysis method for making KClO3, you still need to run the product through two or three re-crystallization cycles to purify it. As long as it's available through commercial sources, it's easier to buy it.

[1989toddm]

Thanks Rojelio and ofitg! I much prefer making things from scratch but time is a luxury right now so not an option.

[perotter]

@ofitg

Have you tried using a perchlorate instead of the chlorate? I've always been scared to try chlorate powders, based on what I've read about it being unpredictable. But most of that was with guns that were made a 100+ years ago when steels used wasn't as good.

Did you use commercial primers or DIY?

Thanks for the report and doing the testing.

[ofitg]

Perotter, I was using commercial primers. No, I haven't tried potassium perchlorate. It is my understanding that "safety" matches incorporate potassium chlorate, and people around the world have used them as firearm propellant for decades (possibly for more than a century)..... I believe you have had some experience along those lines.
Have you tried it with potassium perchlorate?

EDIT: Speaking of questionable-quality steel, here's an interesting video - when the "Part 1" video ends, it will transition to the "Part 2" video (which presents details on loading) -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsvqjHM-YPg

[perotter]

Safety matches are about 35% potassium chlorate.

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/fb/fb26f474-453e-42bc-84b0-bace0a4230f3.pdf

The only time I've used potassium perchlorate as a gun powder would have been from the amount that is in strike-any-where matches.

Maybe this summer I'll get a chance to test both potassium chlorate/sugar and potassium perchlorate/sugar powder with pressure testing equipment.

You are the 1st person I've had any contact with who has tried tested potassium chlorate. Makes me willing to try it and the fps you got makes it interesting. It's just I've seen multiple warning about not using it. But then we've all seen warning about a lot of things that don't fully apply.

[ofitg]

Pressure data would be a great benefit - please share your findings when the time comes.

[PewProfessional89]

You can also nitrate cotton or wood chips to obtain your NC. Dissolve your potassium nitrate in sulfuric acid, then add your cotton or wood chips. Let it nitrate for 24 hours and you should get close to 10% nitrogen. I believe anything higher than 12.6% requires a license to manufacture. I haven't tried to colloid it in acetone yet though. We're in the middle of muzzle loader season here in Indiana and have been focusing on black powder as of now. I tried making white powder with confectioners sugar. Turns out that it has corn starch in it and throws the ratios off. I doubt It would be any better with granulated sugar though. Has anyone tried urea nitrate as an oxidizer? Just curious. I recently acquired a book titled "Chemistry of Powder and Explosives 2nd Edition". I believe it was written sometime in the 1940s. It has been quite helpful in the quest to find a cheap gunpowder to make. I will post more results when I get more time to play. I would also like to copy this book. Is there a way to upload all of the pages to this site?

[PewProfessional89]

Range Report - Yugo SKS 7.62X39 - 123-gr JHP bullet
Each cartridge loaded with 30 grains of Potassium Chlorate/Sucrose blend (no special preparation, the two substances were simply stirred together). Proportions are listed by weight.
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend A - 30% Potassium Chlorate, 70% Sucrose
1302 fps
1401 fps
1286 fps
Average 1330 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend B - 40% Potassium Chlorate, 60% Sucrose
1480 fps
1543 fps
1725 fps
Average 1583 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend C - 50% Potassium Chlorate, 50% Sucrose
1750 fps
1902 fps
1680 fps
Average 1777 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend D - 60% Potassium Chlorate, 40% Sucrose
1929 fps
1912 fps
1823 fps
Average 1888 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Blend E - 70% Potassium Chlorate, 30% Sucrose
1769 fps
1848 fps
1760 fps
Average 1792 fps
----------------------------------------------------------
Also loaded three cartridges with black powder (33 grains of Goex 3Fg, approximating the same volume of the KClO3/Sucrose loads listed above)
1378 fps
1495 fps
1497 fps
Average 1457 fps
　
　

Did any of the loads cycle the SKS?

[PewProfessional89]

Also, Jeff Bartlett at gibrass.com has milsurp powder for cheap. I figured out a way to duplex BR-5 with IMR 7383 to get it to cycle my AR- 15 in 300 blackout. Cost per round with 230 gr. cast boolits is $0.05.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdxzWY3_o0g&t=845s

[ofitg]

Did any of the loads cycle the SKS?

One of the "Blend E" rounds cycled the SKS, but none of the other rounds I fired that day ejected. This same SKS cycles with 25 grains of IMR4895 (c. 1650 fps); apparently the pressure curves are quite different.

For the record, the sucrose I used was common granulated table sugar.

Davis's book, Chemistry of Powder & Explosives, can be downloaded at -

https://www.semperfidelis.ro/request.php?45

Brown's book, Homemade Guns and Homemade Ammo, is available at -

http://xplosives.net/filehost/Ebooks/Homemade/Homemade_Guns_And_Homemade_Ammo_-_Ronald_B_Brown__Paladin_Press_.pdf

[TCLouis]

Long ago research project I found when manufacturing black powder some preferred to wet the ingredients with urine, with preference to a wine drinkers urine.

Have fun with this and be as safe as one can be.

[PewProfessional89]

Thanks for the info!

[Josh Smith]

Wow guys... Tag for reading on the PC.

Josh

[Good Cheer]

Haven't made powder since about 5th grade.
I survived the experience :dung_hits_fan:better than some objects around me.

On being careful, I second the motion. All in favor say [smilie=w:!