.357 Max handgun loads

[crabo]

Any suggestions on powders, primers and cast bullet for 8" .357 max loads? I keep an eye on the Hunting with Cast Bullets forum below and it had a good thread on bullets for hunting.

Thanks,

Crabo

[Johnch]

My 10" 357 Max DW shoots any 180 - 200 gr gas bullet well as long as it is sized .359 or a touch larger ( my barrel and cyclinder)
The 180 gr GB ( I have a first run and a second run mould )shoots great out of WW+1% tin
For hunting in the DW , many times I use a 2 part bullet
Soft nose and WW base

For hunting loads I have the best results wit VV110 , VV120 , Little Gun , and 4227
296/H110 , AA1680 , 2400 and a few others also work ( AA1680 has to much BOOM for me )
Surpluss 297 is on the way , hope it works well also

I use Hornady cases , but I got a bunch real cheap so I am using them

The ONLY primer I use is the Rem 7 1/2 , but I know some others use other small rifle primers

You will need a good crimp

I have taken a good number of deer with the 357 Max , both in the DW and a Contender

Good luck and have fun

BTW with a scope and young eyes ( not me ) my hunting loads are minuite of gallon jug at 250 - 300 yds
But I hold my shots to 100 yds or less

John

[leftiye]

Read Glen's (Fryxell) article on .357 max at LASC's site. Really good read. 4227 is his favorite powder for accuracy. Other good top end powders are 1680, H110, VV120(?), and N110. If you were to slow down some, AA#9, Blue Dot, HS7, 2400 for milder hot loads. See .357 Max's posts on this caliber.

[2 dogs]

I am running a bulk 180 jacketed bullet out of mine on 4227 powder with excellent accuracy at 100 yards. Groups are running about 2.5 inches for me with iron sights. Hard to beat that!

[cbrick]

I agree with leftiye, a great place to start is Glen's article. I'll post the link here for you.

357 Maximum (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell357Max.htm)

Rick

[crabo]

I think I have read that article about 10 times. I really enjoy the way he puts information together. Now that I have the gun, I am trying to decide whether or not to get a hunting bullet- the LBT, or a silhouette bullet- the Saeco. I have a PC Smith in 44 that I was planning on hunting this next year with, so I guess I should go with the silhouette.

I guess I need to bite the bullet and buy some cases and get on with it.

Crabo

[cbrick]

Double post somehow.

[cbrick]

I wouldn't use The SAECO 180 or 200 grain 357 bullets in a revolver, not if accuracy is your goal. I've tried, I have 2 and 4 cavity versions of these moulds. These bullets may be just fine in a rifle (haven't tried that yet) but they are not revolver bullets. This is a two diameter bullet with the front driving band .005" smaller than bullet diameter and there is no way to size this bullet to fit your throats. I took an exceptionaly accurate 200 meter load with the RCBS 180 and with the SAECO it wouldn't even hit the target much less group. What it did do was severly lead the cylinder.

The Maxi is a great hunting cartridge and the RCBS 200 gr FP is a great hunting bullet in it.

SAECO # 399 GC 180 gr and 396 PB 180 gr and at the moment I forget the number of the 200 gr version.

The left picture - picture of the SAECO #399 180 on the left and RCBS 180 on the right. Both of these bullets are sized .357" but look at the front driving band on the SAECO. The center picture - RCBS 200 gr The right picture - SAECO #396 180 gr left and SAECO #399 180 gr right

http://www.lasc.us/SAECO399RCBS180gr-11.JPG http://www.lasc.us/DSCN1037-99.JPG http://www.lasc.us/Left396Right399.JPG

Just a little something for your brain to chew on.

Rick

[crabo]

cbrick, Is the RCBS 200 the one everyone raves about for the 35 Remington? How does it fly at 200 meters?

Thanks for the info.(good pictures also)

Crabo

[cbrick]

Very well, I used this bullet in 200 meter handgun silhouette for some time and shot several perfect scores with it (40X40) with the 357 Mag. I only swithched to the RCBS 180 for the better BC since I didn't need a wound channel on steel critters.

Yep, lot's of people use this bullet in the 35 Rem.

Rick

[garandsrus]

Cbrick,

What load did you use with the RCBS-35-200 out of a .357 Mag? What type of pistol?

I have a .357 and the RCBS mold, but have never loaded that combination together.

BTW, I do like the boolit in a .35 Rem. I shot my first "cast" deer with it this year.

Thanks,
John

[crabo]

cbrick, is this the mold?

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=319002&t=11082005

Craig

[cbrick]

garandsrus, I shoot a model 83 FA 357 Mag with a 1:14 twist in revolver class. Even with the cylinder length of the FA the brass had to be shortened so it could be crimped in the crimp groove. The boolit is .885" long and .455" is nose (forward of the front driving band) and it takes a long cylinder or seat the bullet really deep (taking up powder space) and crimp over the front driving band. I tried primarily H-110 and #9 with the velocity edge going to #9 and accuracy going to H-110. If your not shooting an FA my load wouldn't do you much good, you'll need to seat deep and work up to ???

crabo, yep that's the boolit. Should work well in the Maxi. My mould casts WW+ 3% tin at 212 grains W/O check.

Rick

[cbrick]

crabo,

To expand a bit on "How well does it fly at 200 meters". Its well known that the larger the meplat the better the hunting bullet. Perhaps a bit less well known is that the larger the meplat the faster accuracy goes south "at longer ranges". Glen Fryxell did some work with this a while back and was satisfied with accuracy/effectiveness of the meplat at 73% of bullet diameter.

The RCBS 200 grain has a meplat of .200" or 56% of bullet diameter. This coupled with decent (not great) bearing surface and acceptable velocity from the FA revolver is why its still stable at 200 meters.

Another bullet you may want to look at if your thinking hunting is a J.D. Jones design made by NEI. Its a 200 grain bullet that's .914" long. Cast of WW its 217 grains and has about 20% more bearing surface than the RCBS 200. I don't have the exact numbers in my notes but the meplat is just a bit more than the RCBS 200, 62% to 65%? These were bullets that I did some testing with in the Mag and where samples sent to me from Glen, I don't have this mould. These were quenched WW @ 17 BHN and did pretty well in the Mag. In the Maxi they should be a great hunting bullet.

Just a little more for your brain to chew on. :coffee:

Rick

[crabo]

cbrick, is that the NEI 161B? and is the aluminum or the meehanite the best way to go?

Crabo

[cbrick]

Dunno the bullet number, not being my mold I never looked it up. Iron or aluminum I think is a personal choice. I'm not that fond of aluminum myself but I have no doubt that's because most of my moulds are iron and I have less experience with aluminum. One of the best casting moulds I do have is a brass NEI for a 41 bullet.

Here's a pic of the J.D. Jones NEI 35 cal 200 gr boolit with 2 of 3 lube grooves lubed. Notice the bearing surface I mentioned?

http://www.lasc.us/SSK200gr35cal.JPG

Rick

[cbrick]

Here's the RCBS and NEI 200's side by side.

http://www.lasc.us/RCBSNEI35200.jpg

[Glen]

I don't know that NEI ever gave that mould a cherry number. The mould itself is stamped "SSK" and "200 358 GC". I don't see it listed in their catalog currently.

[garandsrus]

Cbrick,

Did you try loading the RCBS 35-200 boolit in 38 special cases? That might get around the need to trim .357 brass or seat ahead of the ogive. I wouldn't think that the cartridge would not chamber in a 38 special since the boolit nose would be too long, so that shouldn't be a concern.

I have a 357 S&W 686 and a Taurus.

John

[Scrounger]

John, that's why they invented the .360 Wesson cartridge; it's case length is halfway between the .357 and the .357 Max. I have some of that brass I bought years ago at LASC.

[leftiye]

Cbrick, good information about the undersized nose/ bearing band not shooting accurately. I have theorized that just such a bore riding section might help revolters to center the boolit in the forcing cone. And I've seen designs that were made that way (guess some other guys thought that might work too?). Guess not, huh? Seems like the answer to that (centering/entering the forcing cone) is a rounded shoulder like a 2 ogive round nose or round flat nose has.

[cbrick]

Cbrick, Did you try loading the RCBS 35-200 boolit in 38 special cases? That might get around the need to trim .357 brass or seat ahead of the ogive. I wouldn't think that the cartridge would not chamber in a 38 special since the boolit nose would be too long, so that shouldn't be a concern.

I have a 357 S&W 686 and a Taurus. John

John, this bullet seated in a 38 case would leave very little room for powder. The length of this bullet from the crimp groove to the bullet base would be most of a 38 case. I do crimp in the crimp groove with the FA and it requires only about .005" trimming, not shortened nearly to the 38 case length. Cartridge over all length (COAL) with this bullet crimped in the crimp groove with 357 brass is 1.785". Measure your cylinders and see how much deeper the bullet would need to be seated to fit the cylinder. In the Smith and the Taurus the available powder space would mean greatly reduced loads and then there is the strength of these two revolvers compared with the FA. It seems to me that what your considering could be done BUT with faster powders AND an extremely cautious eye on pressure, it also seems to me that you could get into pressure trouble very quickly.


John, that's why they invented the .360 Wesson cartridge; it's case length is halfway between the .357 and the .357 Max. I have some of that brass I bought years ago at LASC.

I have been doing some tests with the 357 Mag and again in the FA with DW 360 brass trimmed to fit the FA 357 chamber to the throat and using slower than normal powder. The reasoning behind these tests are additional powder capacity for more of a slower powder and to place 100% of the front driving band with a snug fit completely inside the throat. Using the RCBS 180 silhouette bullet for these tests. Initial accuracy testing looks very promising but much more to be done with it yet. The last tests I did was about 50 fps under the velocity goal.

For those not familiar with FA revolvers, the model 83 357 Mag is built with the same frame and cylinder as the 454 designed for 60,000+ PSI pressure. In the 357 the only difference is the chamber and bore holes are smaller meaning it is at the very least as strong as the 454. The added cylinder length and strength of the FA has opened the door for some very interesting testing that could not have been done with either a weaker or a shorter frame.

Rick

[cbrick]

leftiye,

I look at the "centering in the forcing cone" a little differently and is in regard to FA revolvers with zero cylinder side play. It goes hand in hand with heavy for caliber bullets (longer) AND lot's of bearing surface. I'm not fond of large un-supported noses in anything but regardless of the nose when the front driving band (or nose) comes into contact with the forcing cone MOST of the bearing surface is still in the throat. Sized to correctly fit the throat (snug) the bullet is as aligned with the forcing cone as the revolver dimensions will allow, it can't enter at an angle.

In revolvers with cylinder side play where the throat may or may not be aligned with the forcing cone then yes, the nose or the front driving band or something must center the bullet in the forcing cone if any level of accuracy is to be expected. I've seen Dan Wesson revolvers with a surprising amount of side play shoot great long range groups so its fairly safe to say something is centering the bullet in the forcing cone. I've heard the SWAG that the initial powder gases escaping past the bullet and enter the forcing cone ahead of the bullet aligning the throat with the forcng cone. I dunno bout that but some believe it. Seems to me that with cast it would erode the bearing surface and cause leading. For my money its more likely the initial nose/driving band contact with the forcing cone is enough to move the cylinder into alignment. That's my SWAG and I'm stickin with it. [smilie=1:

The shape of the driving band or nose affecting this? I dunno but it is an interesting concept to consider. Seems to me this would validate the need for a completely filled out front driving band, not sharp on one side and rounded on the other allowing one side of the bullet to contact before the other and moving the cylinder in the wrong direction.

Anyway, this is how I took your post. At the least it's all food for thought.

Rick

[crabo]

Well I hit a snag. My Square Deals will not load 357 max. They are too long. I have an older Rock Chucker that I loaned to a friend about 10 years ago that still looks showroom fresh, but he uses it regularly. When I loaned it to him I told him he could use it as long as he wanted, but he couldn't have it. I have let him use it so long that I hate to ask for it back. He is that good of a friend. I have since sold my other single stage presses and my 550.

I think this 357 MAX is going to get expensive and I am not sure I want to go to the expense.

Will a 550 load 45/70s?

Thanks,

Crabo

[45nut]

Yes, 550's will load 45-70 easily and they make a satisfying thunk, plunk when they hit the cartridge bin and pile up , soon filling even the biggest bins nicely.

Sorry to hear the SD leaves you,,uh,, short.

[Johnch]

I atached a piece of gutter to where the bin is suposed to go on my 550

It runs down to a big bin or 5 gallon bucket on the floor , as the bin's on the 550 fill up way to fast with rifle cast.

BTW a 2/3 full 5 gallon bucket of 38's is pushed under the bench as I am not man enough tomove it aroung much ( was almost full when I finished loading 38's )

That way I don't have to load 38's for a while

John

[cbrick]

Wow crabo, if someone loaned me something like that to get me going I would have gotten my own and returned it before 10 years went by. :veryconfu

Oh well, I know how ya feel, 4 or 5 years ago I loaned a good friend my 20 pound Lyman pot to get him casting, starting to look like I'll never see that again. [smilie=1: Like you I hate to ask for it back but I really don't need it right now, still have the Magma 40# and RCBS 22#. But still . . . . :(

Rick

[leftiye]

CBrick,
You lost me. Round on one side and sharp on the other?

I was referring to the rear of the ogive of a round nose or RNFP having a curved profile, and saying that that was a profile that is reputed to aid in accuracy, presuably by aiding the boolit to enter the rifling less deformed (via centering in the forcing cone? What else?).

As for perfect cylinder/barrel alignment, it is nice and better is better. But zero side play seems not only to be unnecessary (as you said), but it can actually hurt accuracy, I imagine especially where the line boring may leave something to be desired. It kinda looks to me like you'd ideally want perfect alignment with a bit of planned slop (.001 to .003") in any drection that the cylinder could move if necessary to make the alignment even better.

[miestro_jerry]

I use a 180 Silhouette Bullet and a 204 gr SWC bullet in my 357 Max Contender, I have owned one ever since T/C came out with their contender barrel for the Max cartridge, it is wonder to shoot bullet, some kick, I use this for hunting deer, coyote and ground hogs. I use Linotype for my lead, because of it's hardness.

Been shootin that round for many years now.

Jerry

[crabo]

Jerry, what powder and primers are you using?

Crabo

[cbrick]

Strange goin's on goin on here, I left a post for leftiye a half hour ago and it's not here. hhmmm . . . Oh well.

Anyway leftiye, I see the difference now in what we were talking about. You were refering to round nose bullets and I was speaking of SWC with the front driving band filled out sharp and clean on one side incomplete and rounded on the other side. This would mean that first contact with the forcing cone would be on one side of the bullet.

Don't think poorly of line bored revolvers with zero side play, my FA shoots better 100 yard groups than a lot of off the shelf hunting rifles I've seen. My point was that "some" revolvers shoot surprisingly well with a fair amount of side play.

Rick