45-70, cast boolit, starting point: reduced loads using IMR 4064.

[MikeA]

Hey,
I've been searching the site to no avail on any given load data. I don't want to just say what do I need to do.... I just haven't seen what I needed to think on.
I have new pedersoli rolling block 4570. Cabelas target model. I have a lot of 4064. I shoot an excellent group with speer 400jfp. With 50.5, 4064. My shoulder after 25rds wasn't in good shape. I'm casting 405 flat base 3 lube groove f.p. and also hollow base 500gr bullets. Hard cast lead
Does anyone have any thoughts on a starting point for reduced load with above mentioned powder? Don't really care on velocity, 1100fps or so I guess. I can work it up.
I was thinking a start load of 40gr imr 4064. Then 45gr on the 500gr bullet. Our just follow a varget data. I believe I found some of that data.
Also will be experimenting with FFFG/FFG Pyrodex. I like black powder but pyrodex is all I can get at the moment. Hopefully I posted in the right area. Admins can erase post if I messed up. Thank you, Mike.

[lbaize3]

With the 405 gr. LRN the lowest listed load for 4064 is 46 grains. For a 500 grain jacked bullet, the lowest I find is 43.4 grains (listed for a Ruger #1). That is all I could find on LoadData.com, listed for IMR 4064 and the 45-70. I like 4064 for a number of excellent loads, but do not use it in my 45-70 rifles and pistols. I prefer to use AA 5744, AA 2465, IMR 4198, and the old standby, IMR 3031.

Good luck with your new rifle.
Leonard

[EDG]

I think the kind of energy reduction that you are looking for requires a different powder.
If you reduce 4064 down to 1100 fps you will probably have a lot of unburned powder left in your bore due to substandard pressure for those loads. Someone with Quickload might be able to tell you the expected pressures.

The powders you are looking for fall into the burning rate between Alliant 2400 and 4227.
It looks like you are shooting about 1500 fps based on my Speer manual. To get loads light enough for pleasant plinking you might get down to the 1100 fps to 1300 fps with a 300 grain cast bullet. At least I like shooting in that range.
I can tell you that even that velocity with a 500 grn bullet recoil is still significant off a bench with a 12 lb rifle.
So consider a powder change. Your pocket book will like it since the charge weights will drop into the range of 13 to 25 grains depending on the powder. You should check out the site below and see if you have any of those powders. If you decide to use any of them keep in mind that they can double and triple charged so you MUST have a mistake free charging routine.

Many people use Unique for very reduced loads but they have a significant possiblility of double charging if your charging technique IS NOT FLAWLESS 100% of the time.

My preference is to use 5744, 4227 or SR4759. However SR4759 was discontinued last year so you are unlikely to find it.
IMR 4227 will do well if you can find it. There are data in the various cast bullet hand books.

There are lower velocity loads with pistol and shotgun powders at this site.
REMEMBER DO NOT double charge by accident.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[MikeA]

Thank you guys. I have my father looking across the state for 3031. I'll search around. I was kinda wondering if it would be able to be used. Definitely answered what I needed. I think until I can find the powders or get them rd err d I'll have a few range trips with black powder. Thanks all.

[MikeA]

EDG, that link is awesome. Thanks.

[MikeA]

EDG, that link is awesome. Thanks. Was able to acquire 4198 & 5744. Red dot and unique are very elusive powders. I'll have to order it.

[MikeA]

Thanks for the input lbaize3.

[GhostHawk]

Twice in the last year I've been able to find Red Dot at Bass Pro Shop. In one case I'd heard a rumor here and checked daily for 21 days before it arrived.

Patience, Persistence and Perseverance win in the end.

IMR 3031 or 4227 should be easier to find.

[John Taylor]

Just a word, be careful with reduced loads of slow burning powder in large cases. Had a trap door sent to me in pieces because of a reduced load of RX7, caused a detonation. Lucky no one was hurt except the gun. I use unique for light loads in the 45-70

[Mgderf]

I have no first hand experience with it, but I've heard Trail Boss is good for many light loads.

[tsubaki]

Look up the data on Trail Boss, I've been playing with the .223 and 30-06 with it but haven't started on the 45/70 yet.
Their data for a 300gr cast is at 1200-1285fps and a 405gr cast is at 971-1007fps.

[Ramjet-SS]

Unique is the best reduced loads in any of my 45-70 great powder it's worth seeking out its that good.

[Toymaker]

Good solid rifle. Shot one for years, had fun, learned a lot then bought a better rolling block. I went through more powders and bullet styles working up a load than you can think of. I'm with EDG - a 405 grain bullet, soften up your lead a bit. BHN 10 or 30:1 will work just fine. A lube you're happy with; I started with Darr's and recently switched over to Ben's Red. Powders are IMR 4759 (discontinued) or Accurate 5744, some where in the neighborhood of 23.5 grains, large pistol primer. You'll get around 1,200 fps, and easy recoil. BTW - the trigger pull on mine was horrid. I bought a "trigger assist".

[rfd]

with most smokeless rifle powders, you'll be creating lever loads by default because those powders produce too much bullet speed and just aren't good for unchecked lead and trap door speeds. consult lyman's 49th or their cast 4th for well tested powders and load recipes for trap door, lever and ruger speeds and bullet types. bullet speed and type will be dictated by your requirements and the amount of recoil you wish to endure. imho, there is no reason to go beyond trap door speeds (<1400fps or so) with plain base bullets - that's what's best for accuracy and long distance, and what killed tens of millions of 19th century buffalo.

exceptional smokeless rifle powders for .45-70 trap door accuracy are aa5744 and imr/sr4759. trail boss works well, but not much beyond 100-200 yards, imo. pistol powders work about the same as trail boss - all of these are very light loads with hardly any recoil (but very typically not long distance accurate).

one of my most accurate and favorite loads for this round is 26.0 grains of aa5744 under a .030" milk carton wad. under a pair of newspaper wads, under a lyman 457193 that drops at 415 grains using 1:20 alloy. the recoil is quite light, too. this round is deadly at 200 yards to maybe 300 yards.

have fun, the .45-70 is my all time fave rifle cartridge!

[rfd]

trail boss loads are easy to create. start off by creating a dummy round. measure how deep you seat the bullet. fill the case with trail boss to that mark - that's the absolute max amount of tb to use by weight (i would use at least a bit less, i wouldn't want it to be compressed). your start load will be 70% of that max load (by weight). for the most part, with the typical (almost mythical) "405 grain" .45-70 bullet, that's about 12 grains of trail boss. i've used as much as 18.5 grains for a near max load with a 415 grain bullet.

fwiw - trap door loads with smokeless powders typically work best with soft lead/tin alloys such as 20:1, and plain base bullets. most commercial .45-70 bullets are #2 alloy (with antimony) and have beveled bases. there are a few bullet makers, such as chey-cast, who offer 20:1 bullets with good sized grease grooves and softer bp lube (for slower speeds). couple that with a wad to protect the bullet base and then experiment with the oal, for increased consistency. the accuracy part is then up to the shooter. :)

[tsubaki]

trail boss loads are easy to create. start off by creating a dummy round. measure how deep you seat the bullet. fill the case with trail boss to that mark - that's the absolute max amount of tb to use by weight (i would use at least a bit less, i wouldn't want it to be compressed). your start load will be 70% of that max load (by weight). for the most part, with the typical (almost mythical) "405 grain" .45-70 bullet, that's about 12 grains of trail boss. i've used as much as 18.5 grains for a near max load with a 415 grain bullet.
:)

Their instructions do stress to not crush the "doughnuts" by compressing the powder.

Even though their instructions appear fool proof, as with any part of reloading just use some common sense.
I did have some conflicting charge rates than what the published data suggests.
For example, I measured to where the base of the bullets would be for a max load, in 30-06 it came out to about 16.0gr, the published max is 19.0. No big deal but also 70% of 16.0gr comes out to 11.2gr and the published suggested minimum is 13.3gr.

Naturally I did not go over my found max or under the published minimum.

[fouronesix]

For jacketed bullets in the 45-70, 4198 and 3031 are good powders for medium to full loads- but the rolling block is not the right type gun for anything over light to light/medium loads. You'd be better off staying with BP ballistics and powders that do a better job of it.

For what you are trying to do- staying at about BP pressures, velocities and ballistics with cast bullets- the best powder choices are 5744 or 4759 (if you can find it).

[rfd]

3 years ago i started my .45-70 journey with a buffalo classic and a few hundred of my hand loads using trail boss and bevelled base hard cast bullets. this was a good introduction, with light recoil and decent accuracy to 100 yards. then on to aa5744 and much better bullets with wads and better results at 200 to 300 yards. and now some new rifles with far better sights, casting my own bullets, mixing my home brew lube, and finally understanding what others have said ~ this cartridge really shines with good black powder. life's good for sure.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I am a died in the wool Unique user for the 45-70. It will work with just about any weight cast boolit from 300 to 500 grain. 11 gr. Will push a 500 gr. Lee at close to 1100 fps.
13 gr. Under a 300 gr. Will do about 1300.

[MikeA]

Thank you for every response. Just got back. I had mixed up the powder loads, same boolit, 405 Cast.f.p. Lee mold. I used 5744/ 29gr/26gr. The 29gr my rifle seemed to enjoy. The 26gr seemed to inaccurate. I shot 2"groups at hundred yds and about 4"with the lighter load. About 4,5 rds to get the elevation correct for each different load. They both felt like shooting a .223baby rd.
On to 4198.... 32gr same boolit and it was decent, about 4"groups I think I could do better with a better target but out of the gate it was 3 feet lower in trajectory than the 5744 loads. Once I got it where to go I ran out of loads for that. Well try that load again. So once I burnt up all the l loads i went back to the rounds I previously loaded IMR4064, 51gr, speer 400jfp and I shot 1"to 1.5" groups at hundred yards. All my powders were digitally measured and slow going within .1gr.
Now!! Some of you guys are using wads with the smokeless.... is that something I should be doing? Cause the 5744 barely fills half the case.? Sounds like I got a lot to do to get the groups I want. I think bullet choice need to be better and I really need to find real black powder.

[MikeA]

One more thing. I seated the lead boolit .008" short of the rifling. That is maximum. At .005 it was a bit snug. Used straight alox lube. Not to happy with it.? Or I messed it up? Don't know for sure but after seating,I had to wipe off some alox from the case. Maybe I sheared it but I didn't get any leading so I think it was ok and the little but I thought I had was gone after one round of the speer load. So it had to have been lube? This is awesome stuff though and finally in my life I have a rolling block.

[rfd]

re: wads - their job is to protect the bullet base, this has nothing to do with filling up the case because it was charged with smokeless. fwiw, aa5744 or sr4759 don't need or want case fillers. i'm Very leery of using *any* case fillers, and ymmv. thank gawd for black powder.

re: oal - there are no hard rules, you need to see what yer rifle likes best. build cartridges accurately, keep data charts and take good notes at the range.

re: powder, bullet and lube - if long range accuracy (200yds and way up) is yer main goal, i would suggest trap door loads only, using either aa5744 or sr4759 or good black powder. good design plain based bullets with deep grease grooves in 1:20 or 1:30 alloy and their cleaned, sharp bases protected with a card wad. soft lube, such as any of the good home brews (i use the excellent gato lube, thanx to nobade's recommendation). if hunting is yer main goal, any trap door round with a bullet weight commensurate to the critters hunted will more than get the job done.

there are guidelines to observe, there are many variables, and it will always come down to your loading expertise, your personal load testing, and your expertise behind the trigger. but ain't this fun or what? :)

[MikeA]

Oh yea, love it. Long range is my goal. I have good eyes and I'm very used to open sights like the vernier. I'll keep trying to hone in a group and more than likely stay with 5744. And black powder. I'm think a better mold will be good. I aim to destroy the accuracy of a friends AR. I think I can do it to and I would love to do it with black powder. I'll read up on gas checks and reload! They were all trap door loads, not low but higher end maybe a tad more. From what I saw it seemed I mostly but the rifle liked a little more umph in the load. Now I'm addicted.

[rfd]

re: gas checked lead - fwiw, most bpcr matches require plain based bullets only. gas checking is usually a requirement as the bullet velocities go beyond 1500fps or so, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT WE REALLY WANT ... we want heavy, slow bullets at speeds not much faster than 1400fps, and mostly in the 1100-1300fps range. SO, no gas checked lead. stick with wad base protected, plain base, large grease groove bullets that were DESIGNED for black powder (but work extremely well with PROVEN long range trap door smokeless powders such as 5744 or 4759 - NO, not 4064 or 3031 or varget or 4895 or unique or trail boss, etc). there are more than a few good .45-70 bullets that will work well for long range bpcr, that don't cost a custom bullet fortune. for up to 300 yards i use the flat nosed lyman #457193 @ 415 grains. for longer yardage and round nosed or spitzer type bullets, there's the ubiquitous lyman postell #457132 @ 535 grains, or lyman #457677 & #457658 @ 500 grains. i know of one good long distance shooter who's had good 1000 yard performance from the lowly lee #459-500-3r 500 grain spitzer bullet.

so, get and use under bullet wads. or buy a wad cutter/punch and make yer own (really, this is the way to go, some experimenting with wads is usually a good thing).

as always, ymmv.

[Sharpsman]

The powder you need is called BLACK!!

[Clay M]

The powder you need is called BLACK!!

;)


I use H4895 for reduced loads .
For duplicate black power velocities I use MP 5744 ..
I get excellent accuracy out of all my .45/70's but if I am not using Black powder then I use Rel 7.

[MikeA]

I have loaded up olde eynford goex FFG @ 70gr with a milk carton wad over a 480gr Spitzer, home made beeswax and vaseline lube 2/1 ratio. Powder compression is .270" Can't remember the mold number off hand. The mold states 500gr but it dropped .482/484gr by scale. Looks like a trident missile. I'm quite beside myself to try this out. Waiting for Friday kinda sucks, only day I can Thanks for all your guys input. Much appreciated.

[thegatman]

I use Trailboss in light loads for 45/70. Works great in both Rolling Block and Trapdoor.

[doc1876]

Mike, I only have been reloading for about a year, and yes, I used the IMR 4198, and the IMR 3031, and I will tell you the Black will give me less recoil, and better hits every time.

[MikeA]

Friday, finally shot 70gr & 75gr of Goex ffg olde eynsford grade with a 459-500-3r mold dropping 485gr boolit. And I don't think I will load any thing but 75gr ffg. I was only at the 50 yd range and only using the buck horn sight. Equated out to a best group of roughly 5/8 to 3/4" group. Never had that group except with the 4064 & jacketed bullets. The black powder really does the best job of moving big chunks of lead. What a great feeling and even the big 4 foot fire ball and good smelling powder and smoke rings to boot. Not only was recoil actually pretty light but comfortable knowing that load will go to extended ranges being 500 yds. Best rifle I ever bought. Rolling block.

[doc1876]

Another one entered the fold. :)