Springfield Armory Range Officer 9 mm

[tonyjones]

I am thinking about purchasing one of these pistols to use for informal bullseye practice (25 & 50 yard) to improve my skills with a pistol. I intend to use bullets that I cast exclusively and am looking for lots of inexpensive but accurate practice ammo. Further, I expect to load, say, 105 to 125 grain bullets at 700 to 850 fps mv. If necessary, I will change/lighten the recoil spring. Your thoughts and comments are welcome. Should I consider any other modifications to the pistol: throat, crown, trigger, etc? I do not want to add $1,000 or more of bells & whistles. In fact, I'd rather spend my money on powder and primers. Please feel free to offer your comments on anything regarding the gun, ammo, handloading the 9 mm, etc.

Thanks and regards,

Tony

[Ia.redneck]

I've always thought the 1911 would make a great 9mm lead launcher.
Easy on lead and powder supply, and that 1 in 16 twist would be better than the usual 1 in 10.
GrabAGun has a good price on them right now. Good luck!

[RoyEllis]

Never had a 9mm range officer, but I have 2 of them .45cal and a Springfield .45 Loaded. All 3 will shoot as well if not better than I'm able, 1 RO has a Clark .460 Rowland conversion in it & if I'm having a decent day it'll keep 7 inside a tennis ball sized circle @ 100. I'd expect your 9mm RO will shoot quite well, perhaps even better than you can hold it. Best of luck with it!

[tonyjones]

Ia.redneck,

Thanks for the heads-up on GrabAGun. For this pistol, $700 is the best price I've yet seen.

RoyEllis,

Thanks for your input. Even though I've been shooting for more than 55 years and handloading for about 50 years I'm still a novice with a hand gun. I now have the time to put in some serious practice.

Best regards,

Tony

[DougGuy]

You won't really know if it needs throated until you get it in hand and look in the bore. If it's typical as most ROs go, throat and crown would definitely be a noticeable improvement in both feeding and "plunking" your loads, and also an improvement in group size.

[tonyjones]

Thanks DougGuy. TJ

[wrench]

I have a RO in 9mm. Mine is a fine pistol, I bought it new when they first came out, probably have 2k rounds through it now.
I shoot the NOE 135g rnfp, and a Mihec 9mm bullet, forget which one right now. Both sized to .358", no issues with feeding or chambering. I lube with BAC, no leading.
Really a fun pistol to shoot, it's accurate and reliable, no recoil, and a nice lead saving over a .45.
I have only replaced the trigger with a short one, (small hands), and a few other external mods. No barrel mods.
Go for it, good luck!

[tonyjones]

Thanks wrench,

It sounds as though you are using your RO 9 mm much like I intend to use mine; low cost, low recoil practice.

Regards,

Tony

[lbaize3]

A buddy of mine, also a member on this forum, was having issues with his 9mm semi auto. He tried many different loads and noticed a real improvement when he sized his boolits to .357. And he hit paydirt when he tried to size them at .358. And he gets his best accuracy with a 130 grain boolit....

[22cf45]

tony
I'm replying since you mentioned bullseye shooting although in an informal sense. I am a bullseye shooter for the past 35 or 40 years. First off, your choice of a Springfield Range officer is an excellent choice. When I ask my bullseye gunsmiths which pistol they prefer to accurize, they mention the Springfield offerings as a first choice. The Range Officer is generally accurate enough right out of the box to accommodate a beginning bullseye shooter for awhile and is a worthy candidate for a full accuracy job if the need arises.


Your choice of 9mm would certainly not be one of my choices. I would go with the .45acp. As I am sure you are aware, bullseye consists of an aggregate of 3 guns: .22 rimfire, centerfire (.32 cal or larger), and .45. Most all of the bullseye shooters use their .45's for the centerfire portion as well. We use the .45 for centerfire for a couple reasons. In order to get a 9mm to shoot well, it needs to be shot fairly hot so there is not a big difference in recoil and secondly, you've got to shoot the .45 sooner or later and using in two of the aggregates will allow you to progress with the .45 faster.

Probably not the info you are seeking so take it for what its worth,
Phil

[tonyjones]

lbaize3, 22cf45:

Thanks for your comments/response. When I said informal bullseye I was referring to paper targets at 25 and 50 yards. While I have shot some registered events/formal disciplines in the past I do not desire to do so going forward. I may use IBS 200 or 300 yard targets in lieu of NRA bullseye targets. I hope to get to the point where I can consistently shoot 1-1/2 to 2" groups at 25 yards and twice that at 50. I intend to use a 2 hand grip. My shooting will overwhelmingly be on my personal range. I want a pistol that I can use for lots of accurate but inexpensive practice. I fully intend to also acquire a couple of .45's. I'd like a 4" pistol for carry and I also find myself attracted to a long slide .45.

Any response that adds to my knowledge is a positive thing as are comments that cause me to pause and think things over.

Best regards,

Tony

[22cf45]

Tony
If you achieve the results in group size you mention, we will be referring to you as high master :) I liked long slides also back in the day, but have to shoot dots now if I want to see the sights. A dot added to a long slide gets pretty heavy with one hand.
Phil
Distinguished Pistol
Distinguished Revolver
Presidents 100
Elihu Root Gold Medal

[tonyjones]

Phil,

I stated a goal... I did not say I would get there. If I get there at all it will be with both hands and that will not qualify me for the High Master appelation. At one time I had a goal of winning either the IBS or NBRSA Nationals. My 100 yard aggs in LV and HV (low .2's) were almost good enough. My 200 yard aggs were, well, not good enough. Bench rest matches are, more often than not, won at 200.

I'm in my mid 60's and can still see the irons so I'll use them as long as I can before moving to a dot. I have a notion that with the right ammo I could use a long slide on deer and hogs.

Best regards,

Tony

[apen]

I'd get the 45 if bullseye is your game. The 9mm needs to be pushed pretty hard to do well at 50. You have to shoot a 45 anyway. If one thing needs to be changed...it's the trigger.

[22cf45]

tony
The groups shot in benchrest amaze me. One of my bullseye shooting buddies was a benchrest shooter for quite a few years. Talking with him about all the little things needed to shoot those little bug hole groups is very interesting. The equipment needed to be competitive is nothing I'm familiar with.
Phil

[apen]

Phil Hemphill?

[tonyjones]

There seems to be a growing consensus around the .45 ACP. TJ

[tonyjones]

apen,

Would you have the trigger tuned or have it changed?

Thanks,

Tony

[apen]

I would get a trigger job by a smith accustomed to tuning BE guns.
You have a good starter platform. Stock guns don't come with triggers useful for learning how to shoot at 50 yards.

[tonyjones]

Phil,

It's been a while since I've played the BR game. My guess is that a competitive rifle and scope would today cost between $4k and $5k. Double that for a LV (10.5# weight limit) gun AND a HV (13.5# weight limit) gun. One could use the LV gun for both events but would be at a disadvantage. The 13.5# gun IS easier to shoot well. Add another couple thousand dollars for dies, arbor press, neck turning equipment and assorted doodads, components and barrels. Yes...barrels. The most competitive shooters believe a good barrel has a competitive life of 600 to 900 rounds.

My guess is that around 400 shooters compete at the Super Shoot and half of them have competitive equipment. Perhaps 20 or so of the competitors are capable of winning the event. It gets down to who can handle the conditions (wind/mirage). Half of the folks competing have rifles that will shoot in the .0's and .1's if no wind were present.

Have fun,

Tony

[22cf45]

Apen
No, no, no. I don't and never did shoot any where near the level of Phil Hemphill. Only in my dreams. Nice short line target, apen. Good to run into another bullseye shooter on here, not many of us left. Have you seen the new name for our sport? Precision pistol. Us old timers will probably still call it bullseye.

Tony
My friend is rebarreling one of my rifles with a Krieger in .222. With his help, I hope to get in the 3's. Need to buy proper glass for it. He has a 45X leupold that's been frozen he would sell me but I don't know if I could shoot it since they are mounted so high. At least it seems high to a deer hunter. What do you think, 36X or 45X? I hope I'm not highjacking your thread.
Phil

[ASM826]

I shoot a lot of cast 200 gr SWC .45 through a Springfield. It's not a Range Officer model, but if I was in the market for a 9mm 1911, the Springfield would be one I would consider. Besides, you could always have some fun with lines like, 'Yep, I shot the RO in the match yesterday."

[tonyjones]

Phil,

I found CB by accident while doing an internet search. I have stayed here for 5 years and counting because it is a very good place to learn. I do not object to thread drift because some of the most useful info I've found here came after a thread began to drift somewhat. Besides, anyone here is welcome to post in response to my OP or something else if they wish.

The Leupold BR scopes are excellent. The March scopes are even better but may no longer be made. If I were to build a new BR gun I would be tempted to use a Nightforce NXS if I could make weight class limitations with it. Variable power scopes can save the day when the mirage is boiling. I find it next to impossible to use a 45 power in heavy mirage conditions. Simply turn down the power/magnification until you can "see through the swimming pool" and carry on. If I were limited to fixed power I would get a 36 and would not freeze it but that's just my preference/prejudice.

Scopes are mounted high on BR guns because they are shot free recoil and the shooter does not touch the rifle anywhere other than the trigger. These guns have 1.5 to 2 oz. triggers. Stocks are designed to recoil straight back and are pushed forward (returned to battery) after each shot.

The .222 Remington is a superbly accurate cartridge and dominated BR for decades before the 6 PPC came on the scene. Use Lapua or Norma brass. With a good BR rifle and ammo I'd be willing to bet that with some coaching you will do better than the .3's in short order. Consistently shooting in the low .2's at 100 and the mid to high .3's at 200 is where things become problematic.

Start with a HV (13.5# weight limit) or an unlimited class gun as the heavy rifles are much easier to learn to shoot with.

Best regards,

Tony

[tonyjones]

I suggest that anyone interested in BR and super accurate rifles go to 6mmbr.com and spend some time. TJ

[tonyjones]

apen,

Thanks for your comment and clarification regarding triggers on BE pistols. You have confirmed my suspicions.

Regards,

Tony

[22cf45]

Thanks Tony for the benchrest info, really interesting and helpful. You confirmed my thoughts on the scope power. The reason I'm going with the 222 is that its a pre 64 Win Mod 70 action that way back someone converted to a 222. I know its not a benchrest action but its what I've got so I'm going to live with it.

When you start thinking about having a trigger done for a 1911, you'll have to decide on either a crisp trigger or a roll trigger. I've been shooting a crisp trigger so long I don't think I could switch at this late date, but if I were young and starting out, I would probably go with a short roll.
Phil

[apen]

Tony, shooting bullseye is the best marksmanship sport in my opinion. You get to shoot 270 rounds vs standing around waiting your turn in action pistol to fire a few rounds. I know you said you were just going to do it informally, but just go out to a match in your area and you will find BE shooters are some of the most helpful people in the shooting sports.
It beats the heck out of banging away at a bard door sized target from 7 yards.

Phil, that's an impressive list of accolades which made me think you were Hemphill. :)

[22cf45]

Apen, took 30 years to get it done. So persistence pays off if you can last long.

Tony, that's good advice Apen gave you about going to a full blown 2700 bullseye match. I'd be willing to bet that you will enjoy it immensely. You will be amazed as to what you will learn in a day.
Phil

[tonyjones]

apen,

I may attend a match if I can find one very close by. My goal is to have some fun and get better. If/when my skills meet my expectations I may start my hand gun hunting career.

Regards,

Tony

[tonyjones]

Phil,

If I were going to build a rifle around a M 70 action (pre 64 or otherwise) I would go with a #4 taper (heavy sporter) or at most a #5 and limit barrel length to 22" or so. I would resist hanging too much weight off of a M 70 action that has a magazine cut-out. I would have the action pillar and epoxy bedded and leave most of the barrel free floated including at the fore end. I would not do a BR type glue-in.

Make sure that your rifle builder understands that everything, and I mean everything, must be symmetrical about the centerline of the bore axis. He will need to address the action face, the receiver threads, the bolt raceway, lug contact, etc.

FWIW I once had a Kenny Jarrett "Truck Rifle" built on a trued XP100 action in .223 Remington with a Hart #4 taper stainless match barrel, 1:14 twist, cut and crowned at 23". This rifle, with good ammo, would frequently shoot 5 shot, 100 yard groups in the .1's.

Use a Hart Accuracy Asset to make the fore end "ride the bags" like a BR gun. Try and find a "sporter stock" configuration where the bottom of the butt stock resembles a BR stock with little or no taper from toe to grip. Again, this will help in "riding the bags" and sliding the gun forward to return to battery. You may mount the scope "low like your deer rifle" but when shooting from the bench contact the rifle as little as possible. Stock contact should be IDENTICAL for every shot as it will affect vibration patterns and shot placement.

The rifle I've described WILL NOT WIN THE SUPER SHOOT! However, it will likely exceed your stated goal of groups in the .3's and will be light enough that it could be used as a walking varmint rifle. If legal in your state, with the correct bullets it will take deer. It will also make a dandy cast bullet shooter.

Good luck,

Tony

[22cf45]

That's a lot of good stuff, Tony. I appreciate your time. If memory serves, that's the weight barrel I ordered a few months ago, still waiting. In the meantime, I've acquired a Jewell trigger and Lapua brass. I'll be stocking it probably in a heavy varmint style with a wide flat forend. When I'm not shooting, I'm building stocks but just as a hobby. What kind of epoxy/bedding material do you guys recommend?
Phil

[tonyjones]

ASM826,

Which mould are you casting with? Is it a H&G 68 clone? Are you using PB or BB?

Thanks,

Tony

[30calflash]

Ditto with the 45. You can use it for much more than the 9 is capable of.

[tonyjones]

Several of you have suggested the .45 ACP in lieu of the 9 mm. I completely accept your reasoning. However, what do you think about having one of each? Like Lay's potato chips, no one can "have" just one. I still like the idea of 25 yard practice with 125 +/- grain bullets at 800 +/- fps mv. So far, no one has commented on whether I could obtain good accuracy with that load level or whether I could expect the gun to function without lightening the recoil spring. If I have to do that it is not a problem.

So far I am considering changing the recoil spring if necessary, checking the throat and crown and having necessary corrections made and having the trigger tuned. Is there anything else I should consider? Should I run a few hundred rounds through each pistol before considering having any work done?

Thanks and regards,

Tony

[Gus Youmans]

tonyjones,

In about 1993 I commissioned my pistolsmith to build a 9mm on a Springfield gun and a .38 Super using a Caspian frame and slide. At the time I had not participated in bullseye competition for about ten years due to overseas Army assignments, and wanted practice guns that would approximate the feel of my hardball guns but with less recoil and less lead. I never did get back into competition but did practice with both guns and regained some of my former skills, so I can assure you that your idea has merit. However, had I gotten back into bullseye, both the 9mm and .38 Super would have been locked in the safe and I would have shot nothing but the .45. I tried shooting a 1911 .38 Special centerfire gun in a couple of matches and my scores were worse with the .38 Special even though the .38 was more accurate from a machine rest than the .45. Just could never get used to the long barrel time and difference in recoil of the .38.

My experience with cast bullets in the .38 Special, 9mm and .38 Super indicate that it was a whole lot easier to find an accurate load for the .45 than any of the other three. Also, my cast bullet loads were never as good as my jacketed bullet loads, or in the case of the .38, Federal factory wadcutters. By less accurate I mean that the cast bullet loads produced groups that would have resulted in reduced X-counts at 50 yards. They were more than adequate for the rapid fire and timed fire stages shot at 25 yards. For those who have not shot bullseye, the scoring rings are the same size on the 25 yard and 50 yard targets, so accuracy is much more important at 50 yards than 25 yards.

Like others have written, bullseye matches are a great way to hone your fundamental pistol shooting skills (sight alignment and trigger control) and those skills will transfer to other pistol shooting activities. I encourage you to try it if there are any matches in your area.

Gus Youmans

[tonyjones]

Gus,

Thanks for the thoughtful and informative post. Several of your points confirm what I've read, heard and come to think about BE shooting.

Regards,

Tony

[apen]

Like Lay's potato chips, no one can "have" just one.

Exactly which is why I have this...http://www.nelsoncustomguns.com/store/index.php?l=product_detail&p=27

:smile:

[wv109323]

There was a trend in Bullseye about 5-7 years ago to make the 9MM a valid or preferred pistol for centerfire. They were using a 1911 platform. They ended up with superb accuracy around 1/2" at 50 yards. The down side was that an aftermarket barrel with a different twist rate and a jacketed bullet was needed. The barrel was a KKM(IIRC) and a 124 bullet. Loads were somewhat hotter than you are talking because the red dot was on the slide. Plus these guns were expensive to build. I think you will need to load to factory velocities to stabilize a 124 gn. boolit
I doubt that you would need a lighter spring if you stay with iron sights. I do not need a lighter spring for reduced loads in my CZ 75B.
My experience with the 9MM has been frustrating. I am dabbling with a CZ 75B to use in USPSA pistol. I am on my third mold to cast a bullet that is reliable and accurate and I am still not there. The CZ chamber is absolutely not compatible with cast bullets. There is no lede or freebore in the chamber and bullets need to be seated deep. Standard dies will not neck size large enough for the cast bullet diameter needed for the bore. YMMV with the SA.
The .45 ACP is a H&G 200 gn. SWC sized at .452. About any powder that propels the bullet to 725-775 FPS and you are good to go. Ooops.. Taper crimp to .470.
The only cost difference between 45 ACP and 9MM when reloading is the cost of lead. If you have to buy lead at $1.00 a pound that difference would be $11.00 per 1000 rounds. Primers are the same price between SP and LP. Powder difference will be very small. The cost of brass is more expensive for the .45ACP if you have to buy it, but I pick up more than enough range brass for the .45ACP to keep me going.
The RO is a fine pistol and if I had to do it over that is the direction I would go in a 9MM. The CZ was around $250 less than a RO.

[tonyjones]

wv109323,

Thanks for sharing your insights and comments. You've given me a couple of things to think about.

Regards,

Tony